Terribly "hard" COS final boss... Why did ZOS go overboard with AOE for the sake of making it "hard"

Smasherx74 · August 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

DaFatCookie wrote: »

The group invited you to a Teamspeak(TS) for the communication on the boss you were the only one having troubles with her "shadow sense" ability, you don't need a maxed out cp group I've done it with a group of 200+ we used TS to communicate to get it done. I do agree with you on the part of the maze with the doors being random which i dislike since it gets me and and a mate overwhelmed by the adds when we have to go around.

Lol, I still don't understand how to avoid those ground spears...

you told me to stand in the green AOE, I did that. Someone in the zone chat said you have to roll, but I did that the first few times before you told me to stay still and wait for the spider to drop.

I haven't spent an hour on a dungeon/final TG trial boss in a long time. That's a very frustrating situation, and seeing as how that dungeon went tonight. I just can't imagine the hell im going to go through in the future with PUGs trying to get the pledge done on hardmode.

since when did hardmode need to be easily completed with no ts and a pug group. all the same gear drops in blue on normal, maybe that is the place for you.

Feel superior by belittling others do we? I've already done it hardmode, with a pug, no ts. It's easy.

so you give me a hard time LOL gg. did you even read the boohoo qq rant that want s it easier. no my comment stands. ALL gear dorps endgame level in normal mode now. nerf vet threads can F****** die now

The thread has been dead for weeks now, why did you even bring it back up?

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

then don't do it -.-

you can get helmet on normal e=which is retardedly roflstop easy to 2 man.

no reason to qq here.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

They went overboard with the AOE and the mechanics because people demanded hard difficulty and dont care whether or not that difficulty comes from design or player skill. Because everyone with an optimized build kept crying because their optimized builds and months of play on end made them better than anyone else and nothing was fun to them anymore, so instead of going in search of other challenges, they demanded challenge be made specifically -for- them.

For every single person who claimed 'it's easy stop crying" I have a few requests for you.

Explain why it's easy.

Explain under what circumstances you did it.

Explain how we can improve.

If you do not intend to post those specifics, shut up. That simple.

lostavalon · August 2016

When she says to stop moving just stand there still, wait for the room to light and start walking forward, a few moments later u will get a strong snare, when that starts is when u dodge roll, the dungeon isnt that bad once u get the mechanics down

ValkynSketha · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They went overboard with the AOE and the mechanics because people demanded hard difficulty and dont care whether or not that difficulty comes from design or player skill. Because everyone with an optimized build kept crying because their optimized builds and months of play on end made them better than anyone else and nothing was fun to them anymore, so instead of going in search of other challenges, they demanded challenge be made specifically -for- them.

For every single person who claimed 'it's easy stop crying" I have a few requests for you.

Explain why it's easy.

Explain under what circumstances you did it.

Explain how we can improve.

If you do not intend to post those specifics, shut up. That simple.

1- It's easy because we had a tank that knows how to tank, a healer that knows how to heal and give support, a dds that and know their role and rotation, and most important we don't stand in stupid and follow the mechanics, and knows that play how you want and expect outstanding results is nonsense.

2- I don't know what you mean by under what circumstances but i think it was a sunny day.

3- Don't play how you want and adapt.

code65536 · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They went overboard with the AOE and the mechanics because people demanded hard difficulty and dont care whether or not that difficulty comes from design or player skill. Because everyone with an optimized build kept crying because their optimized builds and months of play on end made them better than anyone else and nothing was fun to them anymore, so instead of going in search of other challenges, they demanded challenge be made specifically -for- them.

For every single person who claimed 'it's easy stop crying" I have a few requests for you.

Explain why it's easy.

Explain under what circumstances you did it.

Explain how we can improve.

If you do not intend to post those specifics, shut up. That simple.

vCoS HM is not easy. It is hard. Because it's supposed to be hard. That's the whole point of "Hard Mode"!

I was in a group trying to get the vCoS skin. On our run for no-death and speedrun, we didn't activate HM. Clean kill, no deaths. With speedrun and no-death out of the way, we run vCoS again to get the HM achievement. And we wipe on it for probably an hour.

So, yes, HM is actually hard. We went from a fast, clean, straightforward kill of the final boss in vCoS non-HM to spending an hour banging our heads against HM.

The reason this has become a sticking point is because people are used to hard modes that are barely any different from non-HM. vICP HM pretty much identical to vICP non-HM. Elden HM is barely any different than Elden non-HM. vWGT HM was the only HM that offered any real challenge over the non-HM, and even then, most of the difficulty didn't kick in until the final burn phase. Most groups are used to activating Hard Mode on a final boss fight as a matter of course. They're used to HM being just a formality--a slight step up from non-HM. And then they reach a dungeon where HM is actually much harder than non-HM, and they have trouble accepting that they probably shouldn't do HM. My first time doing vRoM on Live, we banged our heads against HM for way too long before finally deciding, "Nope, we're not burning those notes any more." And then we 1-shot the non-HM. There is a big gap in difficulty, which is good, because w finally have Hard Modes that live up to their name. And for everyone who think that Hard Mode is too hard, there's no shame in doing in non-HM.

As for the difficulty itself, vCoS HM is hard because of mechanical reasons. An "optimized build" isn't going to save you from the spikes or from a wrong turn in the maze or from hitting a colored orb.

For the spikes, learn the visual tell that signals when to dodge. For the maze, there's no substitute for practice. Always assume that the open door is the final door you'll check--so plan a path that takes you to every door without any backtracking. Once you've run that maze a dozen times, it just naturally becomes easy and even if the open door is the very last door you check, you'll still be fine. For the orbs on the ground, their debuffs are purgeable. Have the healer run Efficient Purge and/or the Templar Ritual. As soon as anyone is hit, purge it. And for the red AoEs of death from the statue, just keep alert and be ready to move out of the way or to block (e.g., if you're in the stay-still phase of the spikes).

What makes vCoS HM difficult is all mechanics. It's not a matter of DPS (which doesn't hurt, of course) or good builds--it's about know what to do and when to move. And the mechanics are unforgiving. One mistake by one person can easily snowball into a disaster. All it takes is practice--once you've done vCoS HM enough times (and are running with people who have done it a number of times), it does become easy. You just can't expect to be easy at the get-go--you gotta pay your dues to get there, in the form of wipes and learning from wipes.

Alcast · August 2016

Smasherx74 wrote: »

I'm going to make a rant.

So lets get one thing straight, Vet COS on hardmode at the final spider fight, is not "hard" its just very stupid. Let me explain, at first you think oh hey this boss is pretty cool/fun, some heavy adds spawning, there is different Magicka/Stam/health orbs everywhere taking your resources/hp. It's pretty fun, but the only absolutely and utterly *** asepct of it is the RNG maze navigation part. I'm sorry but I just spent nearly a *** hour trying to finish the last boss with a PUG. If a group of all v160+ players cannot get Hardmode done and barely get regular mode done, ALL BECAUSE of the excessive AOE and RNG sections, I just don't find that competitive, hard, difficult, whatever you want to call it. I find it *** stupid, it's not even tedious, it's just a literal rng stupidity. I'd rather waste a million AP trying to get Kena helm, I don't want a dungeon that is so RNG that I'm going to be forced to get a max cp group each time it becomes a pledge just to finish the damn thing. ZOS, reconsider your final boss on COS, either remove the adds from the maze. That's all I'm asking for, just lessen the god damn RNG in a dungeon that is going to be played by a lot of people. But I don't care, you' guys are the ones who will see excessive complaints and tickets being made over feuds with PUGs over this stupid ass dungeon. I hope you do leave it like it is, just so you can get the complaints THAT I KNOW YOU WILL GET in direct relation to this dungeon. REMOVE THE RNG MAZE, simple as that. Nobody likes it, it's not hard, it's not difficult, it's *** STUPID, ITS *** RANDOM, IT MAKES PEOPLE HAVE TO RELY ON THIRD PARTY ADDONS like minimaps to get done properly. Yeah, community talk *** "oh this is L2P issue you just suck", well I completed the *** dungeon with a PUG, and I've played a hell of a lot more competitive/difficult games than a Elder Scrolls MMO (lol), but this... this right is extraordinarily ***. I honestly can't believe you guys released this as a DLC, just two dungeons and a personality.

With that being said.... this is what I think of COS....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nhjppiu-q4

I do not recommend doing hardmode with PUGs. Find a guild with people that want to progress and you will do Hardmode easily.

Cously · August 2016

The maze thing does suck when the game doesn't offer a mini-map for default. I use an addon for it so never had a problem with that bit but would be probably lost without it. Certainly a thing you can learn over many runs and the panic of not knowing where to go does add to the fun. I can see why people are frustrated and also why people like it.

me_ming · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They went overboard with the AOE and the mechanics because people demanded hard difficulty and dont care whether or not that difficulty comes from design or player skill. Because everyone with an optimized build kept crying because their optimized builds and months of play on end made them better than anyone else and nothing was fun to them anymore, so instead of going in search of other challenges, they demanded challenge be made specifically -for- them.

For every single person who claimed 'it's easy stop crying" I have a few requests for you.

Explain why it's easy.

Explain under what circumstances you did it.

Explain how we can improve.

If you do not intend to post those specifics, shut up. That simple.

vCoS HM is not easy. It is hard. Because it's supposed to be hard. That's the whole point of "Hard Mode"!

I was in a group trying to get the vCoS skin. On our run for no-death and speedrun, we didn't activate HM. Clean kill, no deaths. With speedrun and no-death out of the way, we run vCoS again to get the HM achievement. And we wipe on it for probably an hour.

So, yes, HM is actually hard. We went from a fast, clean, straightforward kill of the final boss in vCoS non-HM to spending an hour banging our heads against HM.

The reason this has become a sticking point is because people are used to hard modes that are barely any different from non-HM. vICP HM pretty much identical to vICP non-HM. Elden HM is barely any different than Elden non-HM. vWGT HM was the only HM that offered any real challenge over the non-HM, and even then, most of the difficulty didn't kick in until the final burn phase. Most groups are used to activating Hard Mode on a final boss fight as a matter of course. They're used to HM being just a formality--a slight step up from non-HM. And then they reach a dungeon where HM is actually much harder than non-HM, and they have trouble accepting that they probably shouldn't do HM. My first time doing vRoM on Live, we banged our heads against HM for way too long before finally deciding, "Nope, we're not burning those notes any more." And then we 1-shot the non-HM. There is a big gap in difficulty, which is good, because w finally have Hard Modes that live up to their name. And for everyone who think that Hard Mode is too hard, there's no shame in doing in non-HM.

As for the difficulty itself, vCoS HM is hard because of mechanical reasons. An "optimized build" isn't going to save you from the spikes or from a wrong turn in the maze or from hitting a colored orb.

For the spikes, learn the visual tell that signals when to dodge. For the maze, there's no substitute for practice. Always assume that the open door is the final door you'll check--so plan a path that takes you to every door without any backtracking. Once you've run that maze a dozen times, it just naturally becomes easy and even if the open door is the very last door you check, you'll still be fine. For the orbs on the ground, their debuffs are purgeable. Have the healer run Efficient Purge and/or the Templar Ritual. As soon as anyone is hit, purge it. And for the red AoEs of death from the statue, just keep alert and my ready to move out of the way or to block (e.g., if you're in the stay-still phase of the spikes).

What makes vCoS HM difficult is all mechanics. It's not a matter of DPS (which doesn't hurt, of course) or good builds--it's about know what to do and when to move. And the mechanics are unforgiving. One mistake by one person can easily snowball into a disaster. All it takes is practice--once you've done vCoS HM enough times (and are running with people who have done it a number of times), it does become easy. You just can't expect to be easy at the get-go--you gotta pay your dues to get there, in the form of wipes and learning from wipes.

Very well said.

It is true. Most HM dungeons now aren't really that difficult as how they used to be. I will admit, I have not done HM RoM and CoS. There's probably a better chance I will try HM RoM again, just that I have done, the vetRoM mutliple times already, and am probably more confident in doing HM vRoM. HM vCoS though, I will have to build up my confidence on that last boss yet. lol. I would still like to be able to complete HM versions of these two dungeons, and feeling good after because I completed it without it being changed. It will happen one day. lol.

PS I'm amazed that the GM of one of DCs premier trail guilds has a very humbling response to all of these. No offense, but I was expecting that someone like you @code65536 would simply reply "L2P". It's comforting to know that you guys aren't that invincible. lol .

code65536 · August 2016

me_ming wrote: »

PS I'm amazed that the GM of one of DCs premier trail guilds has a very humbling response to all of these. No offense, but I was expecting that someone like you @code65536 would simply reply "L2P". It's comforting to know that you guys aren't that invincible. lol .

I think you've misread my signature.

I'm just a member of Nightfighters; my GM position is at a trade guild.

Mortehl · August 2016

The only change I'd like is the doors in the lower maze being randomly shut. That just sucks.

me_ming · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

PS I'm amazed that the GM of one of DCs premier trail guilds has a very humbling response to all of these. No offense, but I was expecting that someone like you @code65536 would simply reply "L2P". It's comforting to know that you guys aren't that invincible. lol .

I think you've misread my signature. I'm just a member of Nightfighters; my GM position is at a trade guild.

lol oh well, tell your GM you need a promotion. hahaha.

I like reading your replies here in the forums honestly, they are insightful.

BlackEar · August 2016

Every time players face difficult content they complain and say it is stupid not hard. I just don't buy it.

dotlife · August 2016

And in a month you will have learned it. Why is 1? 5, 10 tries too many to succede?