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@ZOS: So Many People Have Resubbed After Update 10 and Your Response Is Lottery Box??
oxxalejandroxxo
✭✭✭✭
A stream of good enough content and craft bag have brought almost 90% of the players that I am familiar with back to subscription after update 10. Finally things are getting back on track as to having a continuous cash flow for your company, and your next move is to introduce something you could easily know that the community absolutely hates? Show me the logic...
12
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy2 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster7 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
Which only harms you IF you buy it and don't get what you want. I've seen systems like this in other games and they do sell well, but you know what they say: Curiousity killed the Khajiit
Edited by UltimaJoe777 on August 21, 2016 8:27PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
It is that simple though. You don't even need to click on the crown store tab if you don't want to.Sweetrolls for all!
Christophe Mottierre - Breton Templar with his own whole darn estate! Templar Houses are so 2015. EU DC
PC Beta Tester January 2014
Elder of The Black
Order of Sithis
The Runners
@TamrielTraverse - For Tamriel related Twitter shenanigans!
https://tamrieltraveller.wordpress.com/
Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
The same claim could have been made about the original switch to B2P with the introduction of the Crown Store, but in all honesty it hasn't made a shred of difference to me, I still pay my subscription and I don't use the Crown Store. It's just the same with lockboxes, if you don't like them then don't use them and nothing will change for you, not even the dynamic of the relationship between you and ZOS. The only people lockboxes will affect are those who choose to use them, and why should their choice be denied just because some others have a particular point of view on "gambling"?Edited by Tandor on August 21, 2016 8:40PM1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
Which only harms you IF you buy it and don't get what you want. I've seen systems like this in other games and they do sell well, but you know what they say: Curiousity killed the Khajiit
Just because I won't be buying them doesn't mean it's not causing harm to me. Moreover, that doesn't mean it's not causing harm to hundreds or even thousands of other people, some of them children, who don't have the mental ability to resist this practice. I mean seriously, how *** is it that the only thing we can talk about is avoiding harm and entrapment? I didn't buy 30k Crowns to spend in some gambling ring, I bought them because I had faith ZOS would keep producing good content for the Crown Store. Even if we just ignore the harm-focused monetization strategy, I'm still going to wind up with half the things I'd want to buy locked in as incentives for a gambling ring. It's horrid.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
It is that simple though. You don't even need to click on the crown store tab if you don't want to.
It is not that simple, they are locking content to incentivize their gambling ring that nobody ever asked for or wanted and that was never a part of the appeal of the game. Nobody signed up for ESO thinking "good golly, I can't wait to gamble real-world money today". They are taking legitimate digital goods and tying them up with a completely disreputable, unnecessary, and unwanted gambling service. I rather enjoy supporting the game and getting legitimate digital good from the Crown Store, but I absolutely resist this bogus and ill-conceived gambling box idea.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster5 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
Which only harms you IF you buy it and don't get what you want. I've seen systems like this in other games and they do sell well, but you know what they say: Curiousity killed the Khajiit
Just because I won't be buying them doesn't mean it's not causing harm to me. Moreover, that doesn't mean it's not causing harm to hundreds or even thousands of other people, some of them children, who don't have the mental ability to resist this practice. I mean seriously, how *** is it that the only thing we can talk about is avoiding harm and entrapment? I didn't buy 30k Crowns to spend in some gambling ring, I bought them because I had faith ZOS would keep producing good content for the Crown Store. Even if we just ignore the harm-focused monetization strategy, I'm still going to wind up with half the things I'd want to buy locked in as incentives for a gambling ring. It's horrid.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
It is that simple though. You don't even need to click on the crown store tab if you don't want to.
It is not that simple, they are locking content to incentivize their gambling ring that nobody ever asked for or wanted and that was never a part of the appeal of the game. Nobody signed up for ESO thinking "good golly, I can't wait to gamble real-world money today". They are taking legitimate digital goods and tying them up with a completely disreputable, unnecessary, and unwanted gambling service. I rather enjoy supporting the game and getting legitimate digital good from the Crown Store, but I absolutely resist this bogus and ill-conceived gambling box idea.
Much of what you said makes no sense. I get people are opposed to the boxes but it really doesn't harm YOU if YOU don't buy them. Points being:
1. Overall, chances are people fishing for limited items sold and now gone forever will pay MORE for them this way than those that got them when they were available paid.
2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
To those who refuse to buy these boxes more power to ya because I know I won't, but still those that actually WANT to take the gambit why should we stop them? They know what they're getting into...Edited by UltimaJoe777 on August 21, 2016 8:49PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy2 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
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Or they could just offer the item as a straight-up purchase. Simple. Straightforward. No RNG. To say that a gamble box is the only way to offer old items is rather silly.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
Slot machines are very cheap, too. But there are people who do get addicted to them and bankrupt themselves.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
It comes down to a matter of principle. How is ZOS going to make money off of a system like this? Rational customers know that gambling is never worth it in the long run. I would never touch them, and I assume you would not either. Which then begs the question, why offer them, if not to entice people who don't behave rationally or who lack good self-control? This sort of behavior is predatory. It doesn't affect me directly because I would never participate. But the fact that they are making a move to fish these sorts of players erodes my opinion of their moral compass. And a company's moral standing is important to many people, even if the actions in question do not directly affect that customer--consider, for example, customers who refuse to buy from companies that engage in certain labor practices or that take public political stances at odds with that customer.
Even if a player never buys a gambling box, by continuing to do business with ZOS, they are indirectly supporting the existence of these gambling boxes, and some players cannot have that on their moral conscience.
As for me, while I do find the gambling boxes objectionable, there is enough good coming in this update that outweigh this bad. But, yes, this move does mar my opinion of the company. And, yes, I can understand why some people think that it crosses a line that should never be breached.Edited by code65536 on August 21, 2016 9:13PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information9 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Or they could just offer the item as a straight-up purchase. Simple. Straightforward. No RNG. To say that a gamble box is the only way to offer old items is rather silly.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
Slot machines are very cheap, too. But there are people who do get addicted to them and bankrupt themselves.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
It comes down to a matter of principle. How is ZOS going to make money off of a system like this? Rational customers know that gambling is never worth it in the long run. I would never touch them, and I assume you would not either. Which then begs the question, why offer them, if not to entice people who don't behave rationally or who lack good self-control? This sort of behavior is predatory. It doesn't affect me directly because I would never participate. But the fact that they are making a move to fish these sorts of players erodes my opinion of their moral compass. And a company's moral standing is important to many people, even if the actions in question do not directly affect that customer--consider, for example, customers who refuse to buy from companies that engage in certain labor practices or that take public political stances at odds with that customer.
Even if a player never buys a gambling box, by continuing to do business with ZOS, they are indirectly supporting the existence of these gambling boxes, and some players cannot have that on their moral conscience.
As for me, while I do find the gambling boxes objectionable, there is enough good coming in this update that outweigh this bad. But, yes, this move does mar my opinion of the company. And, yes, I can understand why some people think that it crosses a line that should never be breached.
If they re-offer the limited time purchases as straight up purchases they no longer become limited time which means they flat out lied to people and that would cause complaints.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
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They are already kind of breaching that by making them available to those blessed by RNG.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »If they re-offer the limited time purchases as straight up purchases they no longer become limited time which means they flat out lied to people and that would cause complaints.
But to address that specifically,- Limited-time offers were a problem that ZOS created artificially and arbitrarily.
- The McRib is also a limited-time offer that returns periodically every year. Limited-time does not mean forever erased from the aether--it just means, well, the window to purchase them is limited. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to return old limited-time offers for a few days. It would still be limited.
However they plan to solve this "problem" of making limited-time items available again (and I would like to reemphasize that this is an artificially-created issue), gambling boxes is one of the worst ways to do so. There are far better solutions that don't involve them doing something that a number of players find morally questionable.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information7 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
Which only harms you IF you buy it and don't get what you want. I've seen systems like this in other games and they do sell well, but you know what they say: Curiousity killed the Khajiit
Just because I won't be buying them doesn't mean it's not causing harm to me. Moreover, that doesn't mean it's not causing harm to hundreds or even thousands of other people, some of them children, who don't have the mental ability to resist this practice. I mean seriously, how *** is it that the only thing we can talk about is avoiding harm and entrapment? I didn't buy 30k Crowns to spend in some gambling ring, I bought them because I had faith ZOS would keep producing good content for the Crown Store. Even if we just ignore the harm-focused monetization strategy, I'm still going to wind up with half the things I'd want to buy locked in as incentives for a gambling ring. It's horrid.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
It is that simple though. You don't even need to click on the crown store tab if you don't want to.
It is not that simple, they are locking content to incentivize their gambling ring that nobody ever asked for or wanted and that was never a part of the appeal of the game. Nobody signed up for ESO thinking "good golly, I can't wait to gamble real-world money today". They are taking legitimate digital goods and tying them up with a completely disreputable, unnecessary, and unwanted gambling service. I rather enjoy supporting the game and getting legitimate digital good from the Crown Store, but I absolutely resist this bogus and ill-conceived gambling box idea.
the bit in bold... i nearly fell off my chair laughing2 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Or they could just offer the item as a straight-up purchase. Simple. Straightforward. No RNG. To say that a gamble box is the only way to offer old items is rather silly.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
Slot machines are very cheap, too. But there are people who do get addicted to them and bankrupt themselves.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
It comes down to a matter of principle. How is ZOS going to make money off of a system like this? Rational customers know that gambling is never worth it in the long run. I would never touch them, and I assume you would not either. Which then begs the question, why offer them, if not to entice people who don't behave rationally or who lack good self-control? This sort of behavior is predatory. It doesn't affect me directly because I would never participate. But the fact that they are making a move to fish these sorts of players erodes my opinion of their moral compass. And a company's moral standing is important to many people, even if the actions in question do not directly affect that customer--consider, for example, customers who refuse to buy from companies that engage in certain labor practices or that take public political stances at odds with that customer.
Even if a player never buys a gambling box, by continuing to do business with ZOS, they are indirectly supporting the existence of these gambling boxes, and some players cannot have that on their moral conscience.
As for me, while I do find the gambling boxes objectionable, there is enough good coming in this update that outweigh this bad. But, yes, this move does mar my opinion of the company. And, yes, I can understand why some people think that it crosses a line that should never be breached.
again.... the bit in bold..... how do you reply to that...
um... so quit then....
/mumbles.... can i have your stuff?Edited by jedtb16_ESO on August 21, 2016 9:27PM0 -
Morimizo✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Or they could just offer the item as a straight-up purchase. Simple. Straightforward. No RNG. To say that a gamble box is the only way to offer old items is rather silly.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
Slot machines are very cheap, too. But there are people who do get addicted to them and bankrupt themselves.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
It comes down to a matter of principle. How is ZOS going to make money off of a system like this? Rational customers know that gambling is never worth it in the long run. I would never touch them, and I assume you would not either. Which then begs the question, why offer them, if not to entice people who don't behave rationally or who lack good self-control? This sort of behavior is predatory. It doesn't affect me directly because I would never participate. But the fact that they are making a move to fish these sorts of players erodes my opinion of their moral compass. And a company's moral standing is important to many people, even if the actions in question do not directly affect that customer--consider, for example, customers who refuse to buy from companies that engage in certain labor practices or that take public political stances at odds with that customer.
Even if a player never buys a gambling box, by continuing to do business with ZOS, they are indirectly supporting the existence of these gambling boxes, and some players cannot have that on their moral conscience.
Definitely worthy of a quote. Excellent post.1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
Which only harms you IF you buy it and don't get what you want. I've seen systems like this in other games and they do sell well, but you know what they say: Curiousity killed the Khajiit
Just because I won't be buying them doesn't mean it's not causing harm to me. Moreover, that doesn't mean it's not causing harm to hundreds or even thousands of other people, some of them children, who don't have the mental ability to resist this practice. I mean seriously, how *** is it that the only thing we can talk about is avoiding harm and entrapment? I didn't buy 30k Crowns to spend in some gambling ring, I bought them because I had faith ZOS would keep producing good content for the Crown Store. Even if we just ignore the harm-focused monetization strategy, I'm still going to wind up with half the things I'd want to buy locked in as incentives for a gambling ring. It's horrid.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
It is that simple though. You don't even need to click on the crown store tab if you don't want to.
It is not that simple, they are locking content to incentivize their gambling ring that nobody ever asked for or wanted and that was never a part of the appeal of the game. Nobody signed up for ESO thinking "good golly, I can't wait to gamble real-world money today". They are taking legitimate digital goods and tying them up with a completely disreputable, unnecessary, and unwanted gambling service. I rather enjoy supporting the game and getting legitimate digital good from the Crown Store, but I absolutely resist this bogus and ill-conceived gambling box idea.
Much of what you said makes no sense. I get people are opposed to the boxes but it really doesn't harm YOU if YOU don't buy them. Points being:
1. Overall, chances are people fishing for limited items sold and now gone forever will pay MORE for them this way than those that got them when they were available paid.
2. This is a chance to give people an opportunity to get something they missed because they could not be there or could not at that time afford it without directly contradicting the policy of "limited time".
3. Sure gambling is bad but these things also usually do not cost much at all. I expect these will cost about 300 crowns tops because any higher would indeed be a bigger gambit than it's worth.
To those who refuse to buy these boxes more power to ya because I know I won't, but still those that actually WANT to take the gambit why should we stop them? They know what they're getting into...
If I'm not explaining it clearly that's my bad, I've said quite a lot in the other thread and it's hard to keep track of where I said what so I might not be making my argument 100% coherent in this thread. I'll try to explain more plainly here why simply offering gambling boxes does indeed harm me.
So far I have been able to make well-educated purchases and investments into this game. First, there was the subscription, and that was a wonderful system that I was sad to see go, but then there was ESO+ and the Crown Store and while not ideal I at least knew exactly what my purchases would get me. After over a year of Crown Store offerings, I also can make reasonable predictions about the price of an item I desire. When combined with the data mining efforts of certain players, I can, with a reasonable degree of certainty, decide what I want to buy, figure out an approximation of its cost, and then either go through with or decline to make the purchase as a well-informed and reasonable consumer.
With the advent of gambling boxes, however, that all goes out the window. We are not going to be given the odds of a gambling box containing a certain item, and nothing we determine from testing on the PTS is going to be reliable. ZOS is under no legal obligation that I know of to keep the drop rate constant, or even have a reasonable drop rate to begin with. We have no way of predicting at any given time what our odds are. Similarly, anything uncovered in the recent data mining, and all data mining in the future, is complete useless for me when it comes to planning purchases because I have no reasonable expectation of something being in the Crown Store versus a gambling box. The relationship I have with the service provider is completely turned on its head because I can no longer make well-informed investments through Crown purchases.
Regarding your first point in your numbered list, I would argue that's an even worse situation, and kind of the point of the problem. People should not have to spend more money, with no guarantee of success, on a digital item that can't run out of stock and does nothing to strain the server.
Regarding the second point, there are a number of ways to offer discontinued mounts and costumes without resorting to gambling boxes. For example, they can just offer them for sale again, even for another limited time, with no special strings attached. It is still very much a limited time item in that case (not that I especially care, but apparently some people do), and it still satisfies player desire to see the mounts and costumes return.
To the last point, the boxes are going for 400 Crowns as of the last Community Manager posting. More to the point, though, it doesn't matter how much they cost because we have no way to know the drop rate or make any kind of well-informed purchase/bid.
Hopefully that makes more sense, my apologies for any confusion.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭What, they actually said they are doing this? I can't believe they would go to this. I would happily buy something outright, but this kinda system is just exploitation. It's not going to stop at old items, cool new items will likely end up exclusive to this as well.
Please don't add this.2 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Perhaps if you had read to the next paragraph, you wouldn't write things that make you look so foolish. Yes, there are players who are quitting over this. No, I am not one of them. Yes, I can understand why some are so offended that they would.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »again.... the bit in bold..... how do you reply to that...
um... so quit then....
/mumbles.... can i have your stuff?
If you saw a shady salesman selling a bad car to someone who doesn't know any better, wouldn't that lower you opinion of them, even if you weren't the one being tricked? Most humans have this thing called empathy that makes them care about what happens to other people, even if it doesn't directly affect them. Perhaps you should find yours.Edited by code65536 on August 21, 2016 9:39PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information4 -
Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS is just money gouging as always, all of us beta players have known how the company would do things.Master Debater1 -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Years ago I knew a dude in Dragon Nest who blew his months rent on magic eggs trying to win a pink pony mount.
He didn't of course.
And then the pony went on sale in the store for everyone a month later.
Moral of the story? Don't be a fool.
Also, I have no problem with ZOS adding these things. I am completely indifferent either way. But then again, I'm not a fool.
Edited by Miszou on August 21, 2016 9:45PM0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Perhaps if you had read to the next paragraph, you wouldn't write things that make you look so foolish. Yes, there are players who are quitting over this. No, I am not one of them. Yes, I can understand why some are so offended that they would.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »again.... the bit in bold..... how do you reply to that...
um... so quit then....
/mumbles.... can i have your stuff?
If you saw a shady salesman selling a bad car to someone who doesn't know any better, wouldn't that lower you opinion of them, even if you weren't the one being tricked? Most humans have this thing called empathy that makes them care about what happens to other people, even if it doesn't directly affect them. Perhaps you should find yours.
i know you will find this hard to believe but i did actually read the whole post. i commented on the part of it that struck me as being particularly absurd. the 'so quit then' bit was directed at those who feel that continuing to do business with zos would weigh on their 'moral conscience'.
as for the rest of your response..... caveat emptor.
empathy - yes i have that for rl problems. stuff in a video game that you have complete choice over i.e. whether you log in to it or not.... not so much.Edited by jedtb16_ESO on August 21, 2016 9:47PM1 -
LEGENDARYYY✭✭✭✭..........
...................
..............................
Uhm...
...... wtf?
............
Wall of texts just cause of an RNG box? Cmon who the *** cares...
Go make drama about something that actually makes sense please.CP capped.
EP - Nord - Eystein Blodsbringar - Tristat DK Tank
EP - Nord - Eyjolf Blodsbringar - Stamina NB PvPer
EP - Argonian - Tired-Of-Cats - Magicka Sorc PvPer
EP - Khajit - Cutepaws - Banker
EP - Redguard - Jathod Trearan - Stamina DK DD
EP - Redgaurd - Dhenus Okzhat-Si - Stamina Sorcerer DD (vMSA toon, 569K)
EP - Altmer - Haqsin - Magicka Sorc DD
EP - Altmer - Minia Feaine - Templar Healer
+ about 20 deleted alts
GM of Pact Veteran Trade (Craglorn), Traders of the Ebonheart (Mournhold), Pact Veteran Trade II (Mournhold)
All part of the "Akatosh Imperium".
Want competitive Cyrodiil? Support THIS thread.
Me soloing Veteran Elden Hollow and AA: HERE1 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭LEGENDARYYY wrote: »..........
...................
..............................
Uhm...
...... wtf?
............
Wall of texts just cause of an RNG box? Cmon who the *** cares...
Go make drama about something that actually makes sense please.
They use these because the chance of desired item is low, so people will keep feeding it money until it gives them what they want. Companies using it doesn't concern you?
0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LEGENDARYYY wrote: »..........
...................
..............................
Uhm...
...... wtf?
............
Wall of texts just cause of an RNG box? Cmon who the *** cares...
Go make drama about something that actually makes sense please.
They use these because the chance of desired item is low, so people will keep feeding it money until it gives them what they want. Companies using it doesn't concern you?
a business trying to make a return on its investment.... it's an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
Soundwave✭✭✭Man the new generation of gamers are cry babies. Seriously what's the big deal, they put in box with rare stuff. I spend my money that i worked for a chance at for awesome rare mount. THAT IS FREAKIN AWESOME. And I will still enjoy the game, nothing changes towards I feel about the game. If u want stuff to be fixed in the game, they have to make money. Good coders, programmers cost money and having box; generates funds period. Don't like, control alt delete, uninstall, leave, wont be miss. Because the people dont care will keep playing and spending they own money.0 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »LEGENDARYYY wrote: »..........
...................
..............................
Uhm...
...... wtf?
............
Wall of texts just cause of an RNG box? Cmon who the *** cares...
Go make drama about something that actually makes sense please.
They use these because the chance of desired item is low, so people will keep feeding it money until it gives them what they want. Companies using it doesn't concern you?
a business trying to make a return on its investment.... it's an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your absolutely right. They aren't building a game, they are building an addiction machine. It's fine as long as the make tons of money!
They can't sell purchasable products instead?0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
They could make money by offering the item for sale directly.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »a business trying to make a return on its investment.... it's an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!
But random luck? You could buy a hundred boxes and still not get the item that you want (don't believe me? look at the people who ran vMA hundreds of times and never got the weapon that they want). Instead of paying 3K in a straightforward transaction, they pay 30K if they're not lucky.
If they offered every item that you can obtain from the box for direct sale, I would have no issue with this. But they aren't, and Matt even stated at Gamescom that they'll eventually add special items that are exclusive to the random boxes. I have no issues with the crown store, limited-item offers, special items, etc. I don't even have a problem with gamble boxes, as long as they aren't the only way to get certain items (i.e., if every item in the current gamble box pool is available for direct purchase). But to have gamble boxes be the only way to obtain certain items crosses a line that should not be crossed.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
They could make money by offering the item for sale directly.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »a business trying to make a return on its investment.... it's an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!
But random luck? You could buy a hundred boxes and still not get the item that you want (don't believe me? look at the people who ran vMA hundreds of times and never got the weapon that they want). Instead of paying 3K in a straightforward transaction, they pay 30K if they're not lucky.
If they offered every item that you can obtain from the box for direct sale, I would have no issue with this. But they aren't, and Matt even stated at Gamescom that they'll eventually add special items that are exclusive to the random boxes. I have no issues with the crown store, limited-item offers, special items, etc. I don't even have a problem with gamble boxes, as long as they aren't the only way to get certain items (i.e., if every item in the current gamble box pool is available for direct purchase). But to have gamble boxes be the only way to obtain certain items crosses a line that should not be crossed.
two things....
1) random luck..... is there another kind? i assure you i fully understand the idea of randomness... to demonstrate, the following sequence of individual throws of a 9 sided dice are equally likely to happen
first series 127124955231
second series 333387944651
ok?
2) crosses a line that should not be crossed? wow
sorry.... 3 things
3) are you one of these people who's 'moral conscience' is so outraged that you can no longer do business with zos?
well, make it four...
4) what are these must have items going to be that are going to compel people to sell their families into slavery and rob banks and so forth?0 -
Tai-Chi✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
I completely agree.
To buy from the Crown Store, one must invest real currency, so this appears to be a mechanism to introduce a gambling element through the back door. There will be some players who convert many £, $ etc to Crown Gold, in the hope of getting an elusive trinket.
One must remember that gambling can become addictive and that a good proportion of players are probably minors. That brings in question the legality of such a move. I give Zos the benefit of doubt regarding the legality but it certainly brings into question their ethics, morals and integrity.
PC - EU (Main) & PC - NA0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Whoever buys them has no right to complain though as they knew the gambit when they bought it. Gambling is indeed bad for your wallet but you can simply opt out of buying them...
Just because they're there doesn't mean you WILL buy them.
They're still offering a gambling service, something they have no business doing and something that was never a part of player requests. The very presence of a gambling service changes the dynamic of the relationship between customer and service provider, so it's not just a matter of "don't buy it".
I completely agree.
To buy from the Crown Store, one must invest real currency, so this appears to be a mechanism to introduce a gambling element through the back door. There will be some players who convert many £, $ etc to Crown Gold, in the hope of getting an elusive trinket.
One must remember that gambling can become addictive and that a good proportion of players are probably minors. That brings in question the legality of such a move. I give Zos the benefit of doubt regarding the legality but it certainly brings into question their ethics, morals and integrity.
eso is m rated....0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@jedtb16_ESO
Will you be buying these boxes? If so, I wish you the best of luck.
If you won't be buying these boxes, why not? Is it because the prospect of spending 10x the crowns than what you might have spent for a direct purchase is unappealing?
I would never buy these boxes because I'm rational, and gambling is irrational, since the expected long term result is that I overpay. And many people are similarly rational and would not engage in this system. If everyone was like this, then we have no problem. But if everyone was like this, then ZOS would have no reason to create a gambling system.
They are creating a gambling system because they know there are people who can't control themselves. These sorts of people exist. They are creating a gambling system with items that cannot be directly purchased because they are targeting people who can't control themselves. If they just wanted a fun gambling system, then every item would be available for direct purchase, and people can try their luck for a cheaper version. But that's not the case, and by including items that cannot be obtained any other way, they are targeting people who are obsessive and compulsive. They're not targeting me. And unless you answered "yes" to my first question, they're not targeting you, either. It's not a problem that directly affects me (nor you, I would assume). But that doesn't mean I can't shake my head in disappointment that they'll stoop to this level.
You don't have to be the one being fleeced to frown when you see someone else being fleeced. And it baffles me to no end that you fail to understand this basic tenet of human empathy.Edited by code65536 on August 21, 2016 10:45PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
nordsavage✭✭✭✭✭As long as nothing flashes across my screen when someone unlocks something I do not care if people want to waste their money. If notifications for unlocks start happening I will be done with this game and won't have second thoughts. To many great games going on to put up with too much more *** from ZOS.
Edited by nordsavage on August 21, 2016 10:38PMI didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.0
This discussion has been closed.