valdereth set is too overpowered

Izaki · August 2016

NolaArch wrote: »

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said something about this. You seem to be focusing on 20%>6%; that's not how the overall math works. You have to consider what causes a proc, and cool down.

Let's look at it this way:
You have Jackpot up for grabs. Rolling a 5 earns Jackpot.
At Table A you can roll a 16 sided die for a 6% chance of hitting a five, but you roll 5 times every five seconds per turn. (Because we're taking into account DoTs that are going off that initiate procs)
At Table B you can roll a five sided die for a 20% chance of hitting a five, but you roll once every ten seconds.

The choice is yours whether to play at Table A or Table B. Either way, the odds are relatively evenly favored. What you seem to be asking for is for Table A to keep their rules the same, but asking Table B to also be given a 16 sided die, taking away the 5 sided, with still one roll every ten seconds. That hardly seems fair in comparison.

You can't look at the size of the percentage on a set, fail to take into account the many other variables that are factored into how sets work, and call for a nerf based on that alone.

THERE WE GO FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS... For PvE Velidreth is useless.

SanTii.92 · August 2016

Stamina burst on demand is getting out of control. 5x Viper, 5x Red mountain, 2x Veli.

ya...

Apherius · August 2016

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said something about this. You seem to be focusing on 20%>6%; that's not how the overall math works. You have to consider what causes a proc, and cool down.

Let's look at it this way:
You have Jackpot up for grabs. Rolling a 5 earns Jackpot.
At Table A you can roll a 16 sided die for a 6% chance of hitting a five, but you roll 5 times every five seconds per turn. (Because we're taking into account DoTs that are going off that initiate procs)
At Table B you can roll a five sided die for a 20% chance of hitting a five, but you roll once every ten seconds.

The choice is yours whether to play at Table A or Table B. Either way, the odds are relatively evenly favored. What you seem to be asking for is for Table A to keep their rules the same, but asking Table B to also be given a 16 sided die, taking away the 5 sided, with still one roll every ten seconds. That hardly seems fair in comparison.

You can't look at the size of the percentage on a set, fail to take into account the many other variables that are factored into how sets work, and call for a nerf based on that alone.

THERE WE GO FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS... For PvE Velidreth is useless.

yes , velidreth is useless on pve because stam did only 36K dps with and 40K + dps withtout ... poor stam

Izaki · August 2016

Apherius wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said something about this. You seem to be focusing on 20%>6%; that's not how the overall math works. You have to consider what causes a proc, and cool down.

Let's look at it this way:
You have Jackpot up for grabs. Rolling a 5 earns Jackpot.
At Table A you can roll a 16 sided die for a 6% chance of hitting a five, but you roll 5 times every five seconds per turn. (Because we're taking into account DoTs that are going off that initiate procs)
At Table B you can roll a five sided die for a 20% chance of hitting a five, but you roll once every ten seconds.

The choice is yours whether to play at Table A or Table B. Either way, the odds are relatively evenly favored. What you seem to be asking for is for Table A to keep their rules the same, but asking Table B to also be given a 16 sided die, taking away the 5 sided, with still one roll every ten seconds. That hardly seems fair in comparison.

You can't look at the size of the percentage on a set, fail to take into account the many other variables that are factored into how sets work, and call for a nerf based on that alone.

THERE WE GO FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS... For PvE Velidreth is useless.

yes , velidreth is useless on pve because stam did only 36K dps with and 40K + dps withtout ... poor stam

I main a magicka sorc, play mostly magicka classes and just have stamina toons because I want stamina toons. Just sayin'. So you don't need to tell me that magicka DPS and stamina DPS is very unbalanced.

PurifedBladez · August 2016

Velindreth is nothing special.

nimander99 · August 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

While we are glad to see members making use of the Forums, we must remind everyone that baiting and flaming other members are both violations of the Community Rules. We would like to ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.

why even bother posting
you just give false hope that ZOS actually read this

I think I remember, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but someone from Zenimax stated they were looking into changing the moderating symbols and the response symbols so we aren't confused when we click the green Z.

Cryptical · August 2016

NolaArch wrote: »

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said something about this. You seem to be focusing on 20%>6%; that's not how the overall math works. You have to consider what causes a proc, and cool down.

Let's look at it this way:
You have Jackpot up for grabs. Rolling a 5 earns Jackpot.
At Table A you can roll a 16 sided die for a 6% chance of hitting a five, but you roll 5 times every five seconds per turn. (Because we're taking into account DoTs that are going off that initiate procs)
At Table B you can roll a five sided die for a 20% chance of hitting a five, but you roll once every ten seconds.

The choice is yours whether to play at Table A or Table B. Either way, the odds are relatively evenly favored. What you seem to be asking for is for Table A to keep their rules the same, but asking Table B to also be given a 16 sided die, taking away the 5 sided, with still one roll every ten seconds. That hardly seems fair in comparison.

No they aren't evenly favored. At 12 hits it becomes a coin flip (plus or minus 2%) that you've jackpotted on a 6% proc. It takes 3 hits for the same (plus or minus 2%) to happen with the 20% proc. Depending on how quickly you can rip through the hits is how quickly you can get the first proc - the cool down doesn't factor the way you've done it. Because then you start the stopwatch till the next likely proc after the cooldown not during it.

This is part of why malubeth procs on templars so often, it only takes a templar 3 sets of aedric spears to rip through 12 hits, and arrive at about a 52% chance that one of those 12 rolls of the RNG was in the special range that activates the purple beam of healing. But it doesn't start rolling to proc again till the beam goes away.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

@Xeven The comparison you're making doesn't work at all. They are completely different sets with completely different purposes.

Okay let me explain. This set is the only one that has a 10 second cooldown, making it almost garbage for PvE. I'll get into PvP later.

Nerien'eth: Crystal has 10% proc chance but can be procc'ed every 3 seconds off direct damage attacks because of the fact that the Crystal takes 3 seconds to explode. Therefore its higher DPS than Velidreth. The Crystals are AoE hence the lower damage while Velidreth is single target only hence the higher tooltip.

Valkyn Skoria: this too has a cooldown of 5 seconds, but if you have enough DoTs (usually 4 is plenty) you'll have Meteors flying every 5 seconds. More DPS than Velidreth again. Again Skoria has splash damage so its AoE, it locks onto the target, whereas Velidreth can miss completely and its not AoE.

Velidreth has more burst sure, but in PvE that burst is useless so the 10 second cooldown kills the set. You can still use it, but better to just run a 5 piece Vicious Ophidian/Roar of Alkosh.

In PvP it does have burst, but its currently bugged: works only on flat surfaces. Maybe its intended, maybe not.
But the 20% proc rate in PvP is a lot. I'm wondering whether DoTs proc it or not. The set is very powerful already with the 1 piece bonus, which is way too strong in my opinion.
Then again this set is made for burst and burst only. It is dodgeable (even if its near impossible at close range). If you take it in your face once you won't get a second one straight away. Plus that burst is useless in an outbumbered situation, because it can only occur every 10 seconds. The cooldown is more than you might think, if you dodge roll a Dizzy Swing and Velidreth procs, you get AT LEAST 10 seconds where it won't proc.
In some situations this set is OP, like a few other sets. In others there are better options.

Couldn't be more wrong...the set averages 2.4k dps single target and can be over 3k with adds...it's BiS for PvE

@hedna123b14_ESO Yep while Nerien'eth and Skoria are a 3k DPS increase to your current DPS level. Check out Asayre's thread on these two sets. Both of them are AoE too.
Velidreth has a cooldown of 10 seconds right? So thats ~12k every 10 seconds (non-crit only). Skoria deals 8k every 5 seconds. Nerien'eth deals 9k every 3 seconds (5.77 sec). Then if you take crits into consideration, Nerien'eth and Skoria have more chances to crit, because they proc more often. There's just no way Velidreth can out-DPS these two monster sets. And thats without even talking about Molag Kena.
Also Velidreth is single target only, only one spore is supposed to deal damage not all three, unless its bugged.

Thus Velidreth is utter s*** in PvE.

And to correct you, it never will be BiS for PvE. Its 4 Roar of Alkosh + 1 Kena OR 5 Vicious Serpent + TBS + MSA Dagger/Axe + MSA Bow. Why? Alkosh for more damage, Vicious for sustain. If you are the one wearing Nightmother's Gaze in your trial group, well then Velidreth might be a good option (a stam DK or a stam Sorc who know what they are doing will chose Skoria without hesitation).

I'm not sure where you are getting information from, but it's clearly wrong. Asayre is a good friend and no where in his analysis will you see skoria hit for 3k dps, neither will Nerieneth.

Skoria ranges between 1 to 1.5k dps and maybe if you are lucky can get close to (but not quiet) 2k on a DK. Nerieneth can average 1.5-2k dps. These numbers are of course speaking for single target damage. In AoE Skoria's can hit for significantly more, 2.5-3.5k. Nerieneth is capable of hitting for 4-5k dps in AoE. Saying that skoria or Nerieneth can hit 3k dps single target is out right lying. I play all classes with the exception of stam sorc. I have all the BiS sets and I have tested them all. Please stop making up silly numbers.

Velidreth averages 2.2-2.6k in single Target and up to 7k+ in AoE...

To correct you on Velidreth. Velidreth can have all 3 spores hit, bit they will only hit a target once, meaning in single Target only 1 spore will hit. In AoE all 3 have a chance to hit. I know since I have the set and have TESTED it.

Skoria cooldown is 5 seconds, but even on a DoT DK it does not proc every 5 seconds. Averages between 6.5 to 8 seconds in single target. Nerieneth with FP procs an average of once every 6.5-7.5 seconds on single target. This is the reality and not the fiction you are coming up with.

As for BiS sets you are clueless yet again. Alkosh is worn by tanks, in order to free up dps to run dps sets. Running 5 VO is a good alternative, but the only gain besides sustain is a 3.14% crit, which nowhere near is as good as Velidreth damage. I run a khajit stamblade WITH Velidreth. In my group repentance and shards are plentiful, but I can tell you that in a 5-7 minute fight I end up needing a shard only 2-3 times max, so the sustain is fine. The BiS for a stam user (if someone is already running NM) is 3 VO 2 Velidreth 5 TBS and vMA weapons dagger/axe /bow. Only the templars do not run vMA weapons. This is the meta for sorcs NB and DK. Alkosh is not for the DPS to run.

I can provide parses with each of my stam toons hitting 40k+ dps in trials....some of them have velidreth critting for 32k+...can you provide the same evidence?

NolaArch · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

No they aren't evenly favored. At 12 hits it becomes a coin flip (plus or minus 2%) that you've jackpotted on a 6% proc. It takes 3 hits for the same (plus or minus 2%) to happen with the 20% proc. Depending on how quickly you can rip through the hits is how quickly you can get the first proc - the cool down doesn't factor the way you've done it. Because then you start the stopwatch till the next likely proc after the cooldown not during it.

This is part of why malubeth procs on templars so often, it only takes a templar 3 sets of aedric spears to rip through 12 hits, and arrive at about a 52% chance that one of those 12 rolls of the RNG was in the special range that activates the purple beam of healing. But it doesn't start rolling to proc again till the beam goes away.

It isn't entirely a coin flip, though. You're still facing 6% per dot hit, no? And it isn't promised to you. It's a chance every time you hit the "can proc" mark. Which is basically the same as your figuring the 12 hits hitting the 6%. Each dot tick offers that chance. It isn't that different than each weapon attack offering a 20% chance with a 10 second cool down. The opportunity is still relatively not that different. Templars have the high proc chance due to the fact that they have a skill that offers many dots in quick succession.

My real error was neglecting to mention having to wait on the 16 sided die roll for 3 seconds. But, in the end, when you have multiple dots rolling, each dot is a 6% chance. It's really not that more advantageous to have a 20% chance every ten seconds when you consider the statistical odds of dot proc sets and, say, the set in question.

It's like the lotto, which is why I used that example. You can buy 100 tickets, but your odds will not increase. They will always be what they are per line. Same with the monster set procs. Just highly different variables when you do the math. So, statically speaking, while they are not even keel, one is not significantly more OP than the other. They could proc every single time after cooldown, or not for a little while. But I have no doubts you know that, and don't need me to explain it that way.

My main gripe is when people focus on that "20% is bigger than a measly 6% or 3%, so no fair." That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!

My math is not perfect, but it should clear up why focusing on that percentage is useless for some people.

Joy_Division · August 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's yet another set, that is stamina exclusive and let's magicka stand in the rain once again.
I think, Monster sets should always be neutral and if it's a damage set, then it should be treated like Molag Kena.

This games stamina bias is growing with every update and I think that's very annoying and frustrating.

It's the only stamina monster set that deals damage...

Magicka have both skoria and nerineth.

Nope. Spawn of Mephala is a stamina monster set that deals damage.

Stam can have Nerieneth, with its inadequate health bonus and crystal procs that a leisurely stroll will completely avoid

Mac10murda · August 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

Stamina burst on demand is getting out of control. 5x Viper, 5x Red mountain, 2x Veli.

ya...

5 viper 5 widomaker 2 velidreth

Cryptical · August 2016

I am sorry, I mistakenly combined malubeth with nerieneth in my head, wrongly thinking that malubeth activated on me doing the hitting rather than me getting hit.

The two being compared, to keep it straight this time...

Both of them activate on me landing hits, so that's apples to apples.

Stepping through the fight, I start with puncture sweeps, landing 4 hits in 1.1 seconds. There's an 80% chance that first poke doesn't proc velidreth, and a 90% chance that single poke doesn't proc nerieneth. But at the end of 1.1time what are the chances that none of those 4 pokes procced anything?

Velidreth - 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 = 0.4096
Call it a 41% chance of velidreth remaining silent. 59% chance that it roared out those spores.
Nerieneth - 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.6561
Call it a 66% chance of nerieneth staying quiet through all 4 pokes. 34% chance that one of those pokes during that 1.1 second spit out a lich crystal.

Expand that to two sets of sweeps, for 8 individual pokes. Velidreth is 83% likely to have made spores on one of those 8 hits. Nerieneth is 57% likely to lich on one of those 8 hits.

The probability of proccing a set somewhere in a group of hits grows the more you land hits - it grows the higher number of hits you have made. Just like the probability of a coin landing on heads AT LEAST one time is bigger when you flip it 100 times than just once.

Only after the proc does the delay get taken into account. Velidreth has a delay during which hits aren't monitored, I don't see one for nerieneth.

So it's likely velidreth did spores and cooled down by 12.2 seconds, doing 10k damage. In that same time nerieneth has had multiple segments to lich. Even taking that 12.2 seconds and dividing it up into 2.2 second clumps of 8 sweeps, that is *5* times nerieneth has had separate 57% chances to proc. That's a solid probability of at least 2 procs, for 14.8k or more damage.

Velidreth is NOT overpowered. It is situational depending on how fast you can land hits. A Templar sweeps/jabs or an archer spamming light attacks or some such similar style, will find the cooldown of velidreth to be hindering to them, and will find better results with nerieneth - which I am now taking another look at... If you dish out the raw number of hits more slowly, I think you wouldn't find the cooldown so much of a drag.

Khaos_Bane · August 2016

Hey as long as STA builds can wreck MAG builds it's all good.

Refuse2GrowUp · August 2016

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Talk to my 37k ressistances baby ;* just play stamina, magica is only for the ones that are seeking some challenge.

Too bad 35k is the cap, and if i use a maul 7.2k is automatically ignored + sharpened , another 5k less + minor major breach another 6.5k less + some cp... you got the point i guess.

There are a ton of procs in pvp and when i run widowmaker + velidreth you need to hope they don’t proc together or you will get a lot of damage, if not and you are a uber tank i personally just turn the other way and let you die of boredom...

On topic i don't believe is OP, this set is just a little hard to deal with but if you keep yourself ranged is totally worthless as a set.

You are wrongly informed my friend. Closer to 33k is max resistances in PvE because enemies are not mitigating your armor via sharpened weapons, CP, ability debuffs, and set debuffs. PvP resistances would require somewhere between 75k to 90K to equal resistance cap in PvE from what I understand.

Izaki · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

@Xeven The comparison you're making doesn't work at all. They are completely different sets with completely different purposes.

Okay let me explain. This set is the only one that has a 10 second cooldown, making it almost garbage for PvE. I'll get into PvP later.

Nerien'eth: Crystal has 10% proc chance but can be procc'ed every 3 seconds off direct damage attacks because of the fact that the Crystal takes 3 seconds to explode. Therefore its higher DPS than Velidreth. The Crystals are AoE hence the lower damage while Velidreth is single target only hence the higher tooltip.

Valkyn Skoria: this too has a cooldown of 5 seconds, but if you have enough DoTs (usually 4 is plenty) you'll have Meteors flying every 5 seconds. More DPS than Velidreth again. Again Skoria has splash damage so its AoE, it locks onto the target, whereas Velidreth can miss completely and its not AoE.

Velidreth has more burst sure, but in PvE that burst is useless so the 10 second cooldown kills the set. You can still use it, but better to just run a 5 piece Vicious Ophidian/Roar of Alkosh.

In PvP it does have burst, but its currently bugged: works only on flat surfaces. Maybe its intended, maybe not.
But the 20% proc rate in PvP is a lot. I'm wondering whether DoTs proc it or not. The set is very powerful already with the 1 piece bonus, which is way too strong in my opinion.
Then again this set is made for burst and burst only. It is dodgeable (even if its near impossible at close range). If you take it in your face once you won't get a second one straight away. Plus that burst is useless in an outbumbered situation, because it can only occur every 10 seconds. The cooldown is more than you might think, if you dodge roll a Dizzy Swing and Velidreth procs, you get AT LEAST 10 seconds where it won't proc.
In some situations this set is OP, like a few other sets. In others there are better options.

Couldn't be more wrong...the set averages 2.4k dps single target and can be over 3k with adds...it's BiS for PvE

@hedna123b14_ESO Yep while Nerien'eth and Skoria are a 3k DPS increase to your current DPS level. Check out Asayre's thread on these two sets. Both of them are AoE too.
Velidreth has a cooldown of 10 seconds right? So thats ~12k every 10 seconds (non-crit only). Skoria deals 8k every 5 seconds. Nerien'eth deals 9k every 3 seconds (5.77 sec). Then if you take crits into consideration, Nerien'eth and Skoria have more chances to crit, because they proc more often. There's just no way Velidreth can out-DPS these two monster sets. And thats without even talking about Molag Kena.
Also Velidreth is single target only, only one spore is supposed to deal damage not all three, unless its bugged.

Thus Velidreth is utter s*** in PvE.

And to correct you, it never will be BiS for PvE. Its 4 Roar of Alkosh + 1 Kena OR 5 Vicious Serpent + TBS + MSA Dagger/Axe + MSA Bow. Why? Alkosh for more damage, Vicious for sustain. If you are the one wearing Nightmother's Gaze in your trial group, well then Velidreth might be a good option (a stam DK or a stam Sorc who know what they are doing will chose Skoria without hesitation).

I'm not sure where you are getting information from, but it's clearly wrong. Asayre is a good friend and no where in his analysis will you see skoria hit for 3k dps, neither will Nerieneth.

Skoria ranges between 1 to 1.5k dps and maybe if you are lucky can get close to (but not quiet) 2k on a DK. Nerieneth can average 1.5-2k dps. These numbers are of course speaking for single target damage. In AoE Skoria's can hit for significantly more, 2.5-3.5k. Nerieneth is capable of hitting for 4-5k dps in AoE. Saying that skoria or Nerieneth can hit 3k dps single target is out right lying. I play all classes with the exception of stam sorc. I have all the BiS sets and I have tested them all. Please stop making up silly numbers.

Velidreth averages 2.2-2.6k in single Target and up to 7k+ in AoE...

To correct you on Velidreth. Velidreth can have all 3 spores hit, bit they will only hit a target once, meaning in single Target only 1 spore will hit. In AoE all 3 have a chance to hit. I know since I have the set and have TESTED it.

Skoria cooldown is 5 seconds, but even on a DoT DK it does not proc every 5 seconds. Averages between 6.5 to 8 seconds in single target. Nerieneth with FP procs an average of once every 6.5-7.5 seconds on single target. This is the reality and not the fiction you are coming up with.

As for BiS sets you are clueless yet again. Alkosh is worn by tanks, in order to free up dps to run dps sets. Running 5 VO is a good alternative, but the only gain besides sustain is a 3.14% crit, which nowhere near is as good as Velidreth damage. I run a khajit stamblade WITH Velidreth. In my group repentance and shards are plentiful, but I can tell you that in a 5-7 minute fight I end up needing a shard only 2-3 times max, so the sustain is fine. The BiS for a stam user (if someone is already running NM) is 3 VO 2 Velidreth 5 TBS and vMA weapons dagger/axe /bow. Only the templars do not run vMA weapons. This is the meta for sorcs NB and DK. Alkosh is not for the DPS to run.

I can provide parses with each of my stam toons hitting 40k+ dps in trials....some of them have velidreth critting for 32k+...can you provide the same evidence?

Okay... On the gear sets I never said running 5 piece Alkosh on a DPS. I said 4 Alkosh and 1 Molag Kena... Which is something that people have been using as an alternative to the 5 piece VO.

I did not know that about Velidreth, I only have a few crappy shoulder pieces so far (prosperous and training obviously). So yes that does make Velidreth more appealing in AoE.

If I recall correctly, Neri increases the DPS as opposed to no-monster set from ~25k to ~27.5k, this is from the thread I mentionned earlier. Skoria went from the ~25k to ~27k or something like that. Which is why I said 3k increase because obviously there are builds that can pull out more damage. I'm on xbox so I can't accurately test things and I have to use what I can use, meaning other people's parses and analysis. Hence the fiction I'm coming up with. So yes if you do not mind, I'd like to see a comparison between the usual 5 VO + 5 TBS set up and the set-up you said was the new meta.

NolaArch · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

I am sorry, I mistakenly combined malubeth with nerieneth in my head, wrongly thinking that malubeth activated on me doing the hitting rather than me getting hit.

The two being compared, to keep it straight this time...

Both of them activate on me landing hits, so that's apples to apples.

Stepping through the fight, I start with puncture sweeps, landing 4 hits in 1.1 seconds. There's an 80% chance that first poke doesn't proc velidreth, and a 90% chance that single poke doesn't proc nerieneth. But at the end of 1.1time what are the chances that none of those 4 pokes procced anything?

Velidreth - 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 = 0.4096
Call it a 41% chance of velidreth remaining silent. 59% chance that it roared out those spores.
Nerieneth - 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.6561
Call it a 66% chance of nerieneth staying quiet through all 4 pokes. 34% chance that one of those pokes during that 1.1 second spit out a lich crystal.

Expand that to two sets of sweeps, for 8 individual pokes. Velidreth is 83% likely to have made spores on one of those 8 hits. Nerieneth is 57% likely to lich on one of those 8 hits.

The probability of proccing a set somewhere in a group of hits grows the more you land hits - it grows the higher number of hits you have made. Just like the probability of a coin landing on heads AT LEAST one time is bigger when you flip it 100 times than just once.

Only after the proc does the delay get taken into account. Velidreth has a delay during which hits aren't monitored, I don't see one for nerieneth.

So it's likely velidreth did spores and cooled down by 12.2 seconds, doing 10k damage. In that same time nerieneth has had multiple segments to lich. Even taking that 12.2 seconds and dividing it up into 2.2 second clumps of 8 sweeps, that is *5* times nerieneth has had separate 57% chances to proc. That's a solid probability of at least 2 procs, for 14.8k or more damage.

Velidreth is NOT overpowered. It is situational depending on how fast you can land hits. A Templar sweeps/jabs or an archer spamming light attacks or some such similar style, will find the cooldown of velidreth to be hindering to them, and will find better results with nerieneth - which I am now taking another look at... If you dish out the raw number of hits more slowly, I think you wouldn't find the cooldown so much of a drag.

Well said! And I would agree with that. I feel like people see the 20% proc, then immediately compare it to a set that has a lower percentage chance without realizing there is a lot of math involved to justify a lower percentage, and it isn't straight across the board 20 vs 6 or 3. Too many variables to flat out compare, and I feel like not enough people take the time to consider that. Zos logic can be shaky, but there is some semblance of reasoning behind proc chance percentages. Usually. *Usually*.

Minalan · August 2016

NolaArch wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

I am sorry, I mistakenly combined malubeth with nerieneth in my head, wrongly thinking that malubeth activated on me doing the hitting rather than me getting hit.

The two being compared, to keep it straight this time...

Both of them activate on me landing hits, so that's apples to apples.

Stepping through the fight, I start with puncture sweeps, landing 4 hits in 1.1 seconds. There's an 80% chance that first poke doesn't proc velidreth, and a 90% chance that single poke doesn't proc nerieneth. But at the end of 1.1time what are the chances that none of those 4 pokes procced anything?

Velidreth - 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 = 0.4096
Call it a 41% chance of velidreth remaining silent. 59% chance that it roared out those spores.
Nerieneth - 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.6561
Call it a 66% chance of nerieneth staying quiet through all 4 pokes. 34% chance that one of those pokes during that 1.1 second spit out a lich crystal.

Expand that to two sets of sweeps, for 8 individual pokes. Velidreth is 83% likely to have made spores on one of those 8 hits. Nerieneth is 57% likely to lich on one of those 8 hits.

The probability of proccing a set somewhere in a group of hits grows the more you land hits - it grows the higher number of hits you have made. Just like the probability of a coin landing on heads AT LEAST one time is bigger when you flip it 100 times than just once.

Only after the proc does the delay get taken into account. Velidreth has a delay during which hits aren't monitored, I don't see one for nerieneth.

So it's likely velidreth did spores and cooled down by 12.2 seconds, doing 10k damage. In that same time nerieneth has had multiple segments to lich. Even taking that 12.2 seconds and dividing it up into 2.2 second clumps of 8 sweeps, that is *5* times nerieneth has had separate 57% chances to proc. That's a solid probability of at least 2 procs, for 14.8k or more damage.

Velidreth is NOT overpowered. It is situational depending on how fast you can land hits. A Templar sweeps/jabs or an archer spamming light attacks or some such similar style, will find the cooldown of velidreth to be hindering to them, and will find better results with nerieneth - which I am now taking another look at... If you dish out the raw number of hits more slowly, I think you wouldn't find the cooldown so much of a drag.

Well said! And I would agree with that. I feel like people see the 20% proc, then immediately compare it to a set that has a lower percentage chance without realizing there is a lot of math involved to justify a lower percentage, and it isn't straight across the board 20 vs 6 or 3. Too many variables to flat out compare, and I feel like not enough people take the time to consider that. Zos logic can be shaky, but there is some semblance of reasoning behind proc chance percentages. Usually. *Usually*.

20% is a pretty high, it adds more teeth to already sky-high instant burst, and the ten second ICD doesn't matter because you won't survive long enough against a velidreth Nightblade for a second proc.

It's all about the opener in PVP. This set needs a timer on the spores to arm.

NolaArch · August 2016

Minalan wrote: »

20% is a pretty high, it adds more teeth to already sky-high instant burst, and the ten second ICD doesn't matter because you won't survive long enough against a velidreth Nightblade for a second proc.

It's all about the opener in PVP. This set needs a timer on the spores to arm.

If you couldn't dodge the spores, I'd agree. But you can defend against it pretty well if you're paying attention. I would much rather learn damage mitigation than have sets nerfed.

RAGUNAnoOne · August 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

While we are glad to see members making use of the Forums, we must remind everyone that baiting and flaming other members are both violations of the Community Rules. We would like to ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.

why even bother posting
you just give false hope that ZOS actually read this

@ZOS_AlanG what happened to giving mods a different Icon?

Minalan · August 2016

NolaArch wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

20% is a pretty high, it adds more teeth to already sky-high instant burst, and the ten second ICD doesn't matter because you won't survive long enough against a velidreth Nightblade for a second proc.

It's all about the opener in PVP. This set needs a timer on the spores to arm.

If you couldn't dodge the spores, I'd agree. But you can defend against it pretty well if you're paying attention. I would much rather learn damage mitigation than have sets nerfed.

You can't really dodge when the first strike out of stealth leaves you stunned, or feared and running right into it. By the time you break, it's too late.

Have you met a velidreth nightblade in PVP, or are we theory crafting on a white board?

leepalmer95 · August 2016

Cronopoly wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's yet another set, that is stamina exclusive and let's magicka stand in the rain once again.
I think, Monster sets should always be neutral and if it's a damage set, then it should be treated like Molag Kena.

This games stamina bias is growing with every update and I think that's very annoying and frustrating.

It's the only stamina monster set that deals damage...

Magicka have both skoria and nerineth.

Stamina characters have everything going for them currently in PVP and this set is just one more razer cut. The damage overall in PVP is so insane anyways this latest one isn't going to make or break anything that already isn't broken. I say ZOS please make more Stamina only burst abilities.

I've said it before, Radiant Destruction is the last nail in the coffin still in the game for magicka Burst execute damage. Nothing else comes close at all for magicka toons and yet there's scores complaining about it obviously becuase just like Stam toons some got killed quick, and we see the same here with Valdereth.

I'm just surprised RD has been left in it's broken LOS state soo long. Or should I be.

So would some want equal parity on nerfs? both a feared powerful Stamina ability nerfed and pick your magicka one? RD is the only one left that causes any pause in Stam toons, and you know it. One damn magicka ability causes pause.

Magicka burst? try a ice comet into a fear into a assassins will?

Minalan wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

20% is a pretty high, it adds more teeth to already sky-high instant burst, and the ten second ICD doesn't matter because you won't survive long enough against a velidreth Nightblade for a second proc.

It's all about the opener in PVP. This set needs a timer on the spores to arm.

If you couldn't dodge the spores, I'd agree. But you can defend against it pretty well if you're paying attention. I would much rather learn damage mitigation than have sets nerfed.

You can't really dodge when the first strike out of stealth leaves you stunned, or feared and running right into it. By the time you break, it's too late.

Have you met a velidreth nightblade in PVP, or are we theory crafting on a white board?

A ganking nb would kill you, velidreth or not.

Lord_Eomer · August 2016

They should not nerf this set, although i voted before.

Instead should give something similar to magicka

Rjizzle09 · August 2016

This set us NOT BIS for pve i dont even like it at all it every 10 seconds gimme a break i crit for 14k on red mountain procs and around 11 to 12k on vioer procs validreth is definitely not op at i domt pvp so idk how it is over there but there are definitly more dangerous things in pvp that can kill you im sure this is a pve set so leave it alone the way this game works all sets are useable everywhere we cant nerf every single set tjat comes out just learn to counter it

SublimeSparo · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

I am sorry, I mistakenly combined malubeth with nerieneth in my head, wrongly thinking that malubeth activated on me doing the hitting rather than me getting hit.

The two being compared, to keep it straight this time...

Both of them activate on me landing hits, so that's apples to apples.

Stepping through the fight, I start with puncture sweeps, landing 4 hits in 1.1 seconds. There's an 80% chance that first poke doesn't proc velidreth, and a 90% chance that single poke doesn't proc nerieneth. But at the end of 1.1time what are the chances that none of those 4 pokes procced anything?

Velidreth - 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 x 0.8 = 0.4096
Call it a 41% chance of velidreth remaining silent. 59% chance that it roared out those spores.
Nerieneth - 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.6561
Call it a 66% chance of nerieneth staying quiet through all 4 pokes. 34% chance that one of those pokes during that 1.1 second spit out a lich crystal.

Expand that to two sets of sweeps, for 8 individual pokes. Velidreth is 83% likely to have made spores on one of those 8 hits. Nerieneth is 57% likely to lich on one of those 8 hits.

The probability of proccing a set somewhere in a group of hits grows the more you land hits - it grows the higher number of hits you have made. Just like the probability of a coin landing on heads AT LEAST one time is bigger when you flip it 100 times than just once.

Only after the proc does the delay get taken into account. Velidreth has a delay during which hits aren't monitored, I don't see one for nerieneth.

So it's likely velidreth did spores and cooled down by 12.2 seconds, doing 10k damage. In that same time nerieneth has had multiple segments to lich. Even taking that 12.2 seconds and dividing it up into 2.2 second clumps of 8 sweeps, that is *5* times nerieneth has had separate 57% chances to proc. That's a solid probability of at least 2 procs, for 14.8k or more damage.

Velidreth is NOT overpowered. It is situational depending on how fast you can land hits. A Templar sweeps/jabs or an archer spamming light attacks or some such similar style, will find the cooldown of velidreth to be hindering to them, and will find better results with nerieneth - which I am now taking another look at... If you dish out the raw number of hits more slowly, I think you wouldn't find the cooldown so much of a drag.

You can't proc Nerien'eths with jabs/sweeps, it's is a dot...
However light attack + jabs is 5 x20% chances of proccing velidreth

leepalmer95 · August 2016

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

This set us NOT BIS for pve i dont even like it at all it every 10 seconds gimme a break i crit for 14k on red mountain procs and around 11 to 12k on vioer procs validreth is definitely not op at i domt pvp so idk how it is over there but there are definitly more dangerous things in pvp that can kill you im sure this is a pve set so leave it alone the way this game works all sets are useable everywhere we cant nerf every single set tjat comes out just learn to counter it

If your not on completely flat ground this set won't even proc in pvp.

Plus as it proc's on any damage it can proc off a dot when your away from someone healing and then it's laughably easy to dodge and it's a long cooldown.

Saturn · August 2016

Dk_needs_a_buff wrote: »

This set hits to high and procs way to often. Do you think it needs to go?

Personally I don't think it's overpowered. Compared to other monster sets it's AoE DPS potential is low. It does proc on all kinds of damage, which is an interesting decision, but personally I don't think it's "overpowered". With a proc every 10 second for 13k damage and a standard stamina dps setup you usually get 1.5-2k dps from it, making it comparable to Mephala.

For PvP it is extremely easy to avoid (large effect with a red circle around it), unless the person using the set is right in your face. A few things I've noticed is that it procs Viper's Sting (since the spores count as melee damage) and it also procs Toxic Defiance (the game thinks it's a magicka cost ability for whatever reason). I've pvped quite a lot since this monster set came out and have yet to actually be killed by it, or see anyone get killed by it.

Lastly, it is spelled "Velidreth". I know everyone here is aware of what you are refering to, but you may as well spell check to avoid confusion.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Saturn wrote: »

Dk_needs_a_buff wrote: »

This set hits to high and procs way to often. Do you think it needs to go?

Personally I don't think it's overpowered. Compared to other monster sets it's AoE DPS potential is low. It does proc on all kinds of damage, which is an interesting decision, but personally I don't think it's "overpowered". With a proc every 10 second for 13k damage and a standard stamina dps setup you usually get 1.5-2k dps from it, making it comparable to Mephala.

For PvP it is extremely easy to avoid (large effect with a red circle around it), unless the person using the set is right in your face. A few things I've noticed is that it procs Viper's Sting (since the spores count as melee damage) and it also procs Toxic Defiance (the game thinks it's a magicka cost ability for whatever reason). I've pvped quite a lot since this monster set came out and have yet to actually be killed by it, or see anyone get killed by it.

Lastly, it is spelled "Velidreth". I know everyone here is aware of what you are refering to, but you may as well spell check to avoid confusion.

Velidreth averages 2-2.6k DPS with a standard stam dps set up and no buffs. This goes up to significantly more in a raid setting. It is currently the best stam monster piece and by far surpasses even mephala on a toxic defiance stamdk

Bobby_V_Rockit · August 2016

But 100 points in "mighty" make it a cool 12697 damage on epic... Love it...

Saturn · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Dk_needs_a_buff wrote: »

This set hits to high and procs way to often. Do you think it needs to go?

Personally I don't think it's overpowered. Compared to other monster sets it's AoE DPS potential is low. It does proc on all kinds of damage, which is an interesting decision, but personally I don't think it's "overpowered". With a proc every 10 second for 13k damage and a standard stamina dps setup you usually get 1.5-2k dps from it, making it comparable to Mephala.

For PvP it is extremely easy to avoid (large effect with a red circle around it), unless the person using the set is right in your face. A few things I've noticed is that it procs Viper's Sting (since the spores count as melee damage) and it also procs Toxic Defiance (the game thinks it's a magicka cost ability for whatever reason). I've pvped quite a lot since this monster set came out and have yet to actually be killed by it, or see anyone get killed by it.

Lastly, it is spelled "Velidreth". I know everyone here is aware of what you are refering to, but you may as well spell check to avoid confusion.

Velidreth averages 2-2.6k DPS with a standard stam dps set up and no buffs. This goes up to significantly more in a raid setting. It is currently the best stam monster piece and by far surpasses even mephala on a toxic defiance stamdk

I've used it quite a while on a stam dk with toxic defiance and it never seems to go beyond 2.7k dps in a raid setting over long fights. The number I wrote is what it performs on my non stam dk toons in raids. Of course if you use it on a fight with adds constantly nearby it will be higher, but this is what I usually get in singletarget fights.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Saturn wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Dk_needs_a_buff wrote: »

This set hits to high and procs way to often. Do you think it needs to go?

Personally I don't think it's overpowered. Compared to other monster sets it's AoE DPS potential is low. It does proc on all kinds of damage, which is an interesting decision, but personally I don't think it's "overpowered". With a proc every 10 second for 13k damage and a standard stamina dps setup you usually get 1.5-2k dps from it, making it comparable to Mephala.

For PvP it is extremely easy to avoid (large effect with a red circle around it), unless the person using the set is right in your face. A few things I've noticed is that it procs Viper's Sting (since the spores count as melee damage) and it also procs Toxic Defiance (the game thinks it's a magicka cost ability for whatever reason). I've pvped quite a lot since this monster set came out and have yet to actually be killed by it, or see anyone get killed by it.

Lastly, it is spelled "Velidreth". I know everyone here is aware of what you are refering to, but you may as well spell check to avoid confusion.

Velidreth averages 2-2.6k DPS with a standard stam dps set up and no buffs. This goes up to significantly more in a raid setting. It is currently the best stam monster piece and by far surpasses even mephala on a toxic defiance stamdk

I've used it quite a while on a stam dk with toxic defiance and it never seems to go beyond 2.7k dps in a raid setting over long fights. The number I wrote is what it performs on my non stam dk toons in raids. Of course if you use it on a fight with adds constantly nearby it will be higher, but this is what I usually get in singletarget fights.

Strange...I also have used it in raids on a stamblade and stamdk. Both average well over 2k single target.