ZoS... A word please...

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Disclaimer: not trying to kill anyone's class. Just trying to tone us down a little, a little more toning on stam.. A little buffing in magicka areas.

The heavy weapons passive should only work for two handed abilities.

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Medium armor passive should be reduced to 6%.

DBoS needs its dot removed and potentially a cost equal to ferocious leap.
If you wanna keep the dot, give it to flawless dawnbreaker.

Shuffle needs its snare immunity removed. If it's gonna give 20% dodge chance.. It's gotta drop to 10% after 5--6 seconds and function like immoveable.

All snares need to be made major and minor snares where combined cannot stack to 10% more, additive, to major and minor expedition. So.. Snare hard cap.

NBs need 1 negative effect removed from their several negative effect abilities. If Wrobel wants them to be the down and dirty debuffing class like he mentioned in the last meeting, and you really want to keep all that... Then they have to stop having so many ways to buff themselves on top of all that.

Fragmented shield, should scale of magicka. Changes that worthless flame thing that used to be a toggle, to something worthwhile. Honestly I would just say a dragon roar, which would function the same as fear.. Give minor main, and increase fire dmg done by like 2-4% reduce the cost of abilities by like 4% too. Eruption damage should scale up to good dmg over time. Cinder storm should have its radius buffed.

Give Sorcs 4 more seconds on their shields, scale back the streak cost increase nonsense a little. Lower resources returned by dark deal by 10%

Change radiant a damage scaling to be 20-30% instead of 50. Remove minor protection or minor vitality from restoring focus. Reduce cost of javelin. Remove non dodgeable dark flare trauma, if it's reflected, don't have trauma persist. Make puncturing sweeps dodgeable, remove that snare in ritual stuff. Make damage of retribution scale up more time spent inside, decrease its radius.

Mag nb.. I'm sorry.. I don't really know much about you. I know you would be fun and interesting to play one day. But until then I don't know what to say.

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Lower vigor heals by 6%

Reduce dodge roll cost reduction in medium armor 4%

Uhhhhhh... I'll come back when I remember the others.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Lower immoveable speed pots immov time to 8-10 seconds on medicinal use 3 ... So however you have to scale that.

Oh yea... Put poison injection back where it was.

Perpetuation · August 2016

Most of these changes are very good, makes me wish I was reading patch notes instead of a suggestion right now.

Stratforge · August 2016

Very good suggestions.

Morostyle · August 2016

you forgot - Delete Malubeth

Yoyuyi999 · August 2016

Rip your inbox

Lokey0024 · August 2016

Take dodge roll reduction off armor and replace it on shuffle. Take snare immunity off or add it to the other morph.

KenaPKK · August 2016

I'm behind all of these except the "give DKs fear" part. Can you give some more details on how you want that to work? I'm all for giving DKs a new cc, but I have 3 reasons for not wanting a straight up AoE cc that goes through block of any kind. One, that's an iconic nightblade class mechanic. Two, DKs have talons, which alone gives them excellent AoE group utility. Combined with standard, and their group strength is massive. Three, they already have Fossilize with which to cc through block. Again, I view an AoE cc that goes through block as being a nightblade unique mechanic, of which I am biased and possessive.

That Inferno toggle thing could be rigged to pop an immediate tick doing triple damage to any target nearby who falls below 25% health. It could be mDK's execute, but then we'd be asking mDKs to fit yet another skill on their already competitive bars...

Do DKs need another cc, especially an AoE one? Maybe an AoE cc that doesn't go through block? Like a blockable AoE roar thing that knocks 3 nearby people down? That'd be unique. I think Minor Maim would be cool for that.

I have some stuff I could say about nightblade. I'll contribute that to the conversation in a bit.

Also, I think even minor and major snares would be op if they're still everywhere, especially is we are losing sources of snare removal. I think that in conjunction to a major and minor snare system, snares should be removed from abilities in which the snare is not a primary or core mechanic. THIS MEANS GAP CLOSERS TOO. Gap closers should never snare ever imo.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm behind all of these except the "give DKs fear" part. Can you give some more details on how you want that to work? I'm all for giving DKs a new cc, but I have 3 reasons for not wanting a straight up AoE cc that goes through block of any kind. One, that's an iconic nightblade class mechanic. Two, DKs have talons, which alone gives them excellent AoE group utility. Combined with standard, and their group strength is massive. Three, they already have Fossilize with which to cc through block. Again, I view an AoE cc that goes through block as being a nightblade unique mechanic, of which I am biased and possessive.

That Inferno toggle thing could be rigged to pop an immediate tick doing triple damage to any target nearby who falls below 25% health. It could be mDK's execute, but then we'd be asking mDKs to fit yet another skill on their already competitive bars...

Do DKs need another cc, especially an AoE one? Maybe an AoE cc that doesn't go through block? Like a blockable AoE roar thing that knocks 3 nearby people down? That'd be unique. I think Minor Maim would be cool for that.

Dk's ... More specifically magicka since this skill would cost that.. Heals basically only function based off enemies around them. Their only cc are a projectile and a st. This would give them an ability to manage the pressure on them by being able to fluctuate the numbers of attackers they want around them. All their skills cost so much, they have to use all 3 resource pools more than any class and since inherently they would be the tankier class it makes sense to have a push pull mechanic to how they fight.. Keep enemies close to dmg and heal... I db gets really hot you can fear 3 away. I don't know why nb has to have the only ownership of this. I assure you I would be just as afraid of man-dragon as I would some random knife toting boogey man popping out of thin air.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Make it fear make it knock down.. I don't care it should go through dodge though.. No reason nb alone should have that capability.

LeifErickson · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Make it fear make it knock down.. I don't care it should go through dodge though.. No reason nb alone should have that capability.

The reason why ZOS didn't make all gap closers act like a teleport to help fix the gap closer issues is the same reason why only NBs have an AOE unblockable fear/stun (other than WWs and that one weird Fighter's Guild skill).

In other words: class identity

Maztiax · August 2016

Imagine if ESO was run by PvP forum warriors... *shudders*

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Make it fear make it knock down.. I don't care it should go through dodge though.. No reason nb alone should have that capability.

The reason why ZOS didn't make all gap closers act like a teleport to help fix the gap closer issues is the same reason why only NBs have an AOE unblockable fear/stun (other than WWs and that one weird Fighter's Guild skill).

In other words: class identity

Nb has a ton to make it clearly identifiable as a nb, a 3 person non blockable cc for a class with no mobility, no reliable self heal, and no class bound dmg is not Earth shattering.

Armitas · August 2016

Increase dodgeroll cost 4%

Should probably reduce cost reduction 4% on medium armor. That way it doesn't interfere with magicka rolling.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Increase dodgeroll cost 4%

Should probably reduce cost reduction 4% on medium armor. That way it doesn't interfere with magicka rolling.

You're right my bad will ammend.

Waylander · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Are you talking fire/frost/poison/shock only

Or physical and spell too?

I don't know that I would want a doubling of the physical and spell resistance cap at the same time damage across the board goes down slightly (with the other changes).

Most of the other changes are very sensible, but I don't think mDK's need an AoE fear, I think they could do with some tweaks to spell cost, GDB working via the current small burst heal at low health (15-20% total health) and then a magica scaling vigor like tick, some increased tooltip on whip (even 1k harder hitting whips would make a big difference) and a class execute like all other magica classes have.

OH, and iron out the bugs that persist into their second year and the new ones that come every update.

OrphanHelgen · August 2016

boring.. nerfs are boring.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Waylander wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Double all resistance values, increase resist cap to 65%.

Are you talking fire/frost/poison/shock only

Or physical and spell too?

I don't know that I would want a doubling of the physical and spell resistance cap at the same time damage across the board goes down slightly (with the other changes).

Most of the other changes are very sensible, but I don't think mDK's need an AoE fear, I think they could do with some tweaks to spell cost, GDB working via the current small burst heal at low health (15-20% total health) and then a magica scaling vigor like tick, some increased tooltip on whip (even 1k harder hitting whips would make a big difference) and a class execute like all other magica classes have.

OH, and iron out the bugs that persist into their second year and the new ones that come every update.

I am talking about physical/spell resist values from armor. Lets face it, you really don't need to do anything but push more damage. You don't need to debuff, you don't need to wear opponents down, you simply have to CC and burst. That's it. TTK is still super low. Yea sure you have your "super tanks" but they don't do damage, and are arguably worthless. Increase the ability to survive innately, so you're not completely reliant on a shield, block, dodge.

Waylander · August 2016

Push out TTK and you just make each fight a resource battle and with the current ability to self heal and the slight damage decreases you propose, most 1 v 1 vs skilled opponents would last forever.

Whilst the TTK at the moment is short, I don't find it to a level where I don't feel like I can react to being jumped.

I think I would try the damage reductions you have proposed first, then increase resistances incrementally if there appeared to be a problem.

Taking out perma blockers with 65% resistance would be about as fun as seiging a keep.

Chief_ · August 2016

I agree with everything except the shuffle snare removal. Snares have been so op since 1.7 because zos, keep the snare removal but change the dodge chance somehow.

KenaPKK · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm behind all of these except the "give DKs fear" part. Can you give some more details on how you want that to work? I'm all for giving DKs a new cc, but I have 3 reasons for not wanting a straight up AoE cc that goes through block of any kind. One, that's an iconic nightblade class mechanic. Two, DKs have talons, which alone gives them excellent AoE group utility. Combined with standard, and their group strength is massive. Three, they already have Fossilize with which to cc through block. Again, I view an AoE cc that goes through block as being a nightblade unique mechanic, of which I am biased and possessive.

That Inferno toggle thing could be rigged to pop an immediate tick doing triple damage to any target nearby who falls below 25% health. It could be mDK's execute, but then we'd be asking mDKs to fit yet another skill on their already competitive bars...

Do DKs need another cc, especially an AoE one? Maybe an AoE cc that doesn't go through block? Like a blockable AoE roar thing that knocks 3 nearby people down? That'd be unique. I think Minor Maim would be cool for that.

Dk's ... More specifically magicka since this skill would cost that.. Heals basically only function based off enemies around them. Their only cc are a projectile and a st. This would give them an ability to manage the pressure on them by being able to fluctuate the numbers of attackers they want around them. All their skills cost so much, they have to use all 3 resource pools more than any class and since inherently they would be the tankier class it makes sense to have a push pull mechanic to how they fight.. Keep enemies close to dmg and heal... I db gets really hot you can fear 3 away. I don't know why nb has to have the only ownership of this. I assure you I would be just as afraid of man-dragon as I would some random knife toting boogey man popping out of thin air.

So reduce their magicka costs across the board and give them something unique, like an aoe knockdown that can be blocked, or an aoe push back that can't be blocked but doesn't hard cc. Fear is an iconic nb ability. Just because you don't appreciate that doesn't mean we nightblades don't either. I'm serious -- putting Fear on magicka DK will make it outperform nightblades in group to the point where no one wants nightblades in groups anymore.

Also hard ccs are quickly broken free from. If you want a tool to fluctuate pressure from greater numbers piling on a magicka dk, a circular or conal push back that doesn't hard cc, or heck, which pushes people back to ~10m and knocks them down, would be not only more useful, but more unique in the game as well.

Joy_Division · August 2016

A lot of these suggestions are decent and correctly identify balance issues that should be obvious to anyone objective that PvPs. They more alleviate rather than address what I believe are the root issues plaguing PvP balance, but I could get behind most of them.

I'm not quite sure why you believe Templar Sweeps, an AOE, should be dodgeable though. AoEs are not intended to be dodged. As it is, people simple just have to walk away from the templar to avoid it since it renders the caster immobile. Since it is hard to actually hit people with this ability and making it dodgeable would mean the main templar attack abilities (flare, RD, sweeps) would require ideal circumstances to actually hit people.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Waylander wrote: »

Push out TTK and you just make each fight a resource battle and with the current ability to self heal and the slight damage decreases you propose, most 1 v 1 vs skilled opponents would last forever.

Whilst the TTK at the moment is short, I don't find it to a level where I don't feel like I can react to being jumped.

I think I would try the damage reductions you have proposed first, then increase resistances incrementally if there appeared to be a problem.

Taking out perma blockers with 65% resistance would be about as fun as seiging a keep.

Oh yea I glazed over that part. +65% resistances would be horrible. I'd argue that if damage is reduced at all, sustain needs to be reduced comparably to keep fights from becoming more unending than they already are.

frozywozy · August 2016

Buff magplar imo. Make sure that RD, sweeps and gap closer mini snares keep going through mist form until next DLC.

The_Payne_Train · August 2016

this is a cracker some very good skill change points there that would bring on a better diversity of the game and make a lot of things more balanced across the board, awesome work mate.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

A lot of these suggestions are decent and correctly identify balance issues that should be obvious to anyone objective that PvPs. They more alleviate rather than address what I believe are the root issues plaguing PvP balance, but I could get behind most of them.

I'm not quite sure why you believe Templar Sweeps, an AOE, should be dodgeable though. AoEs are not intended to be dodged. As it is, people simple just have to walk away from the templar to avoid it since it renders the caster immobile. Since it is hard to actually hit people with this ability and making it dodgeable would mean the main templar attack abilities (flare, RD, sweeps) would require ideal circumstances to actually hit people.

Joy, its just cause not all aoe's are undodgeable. Sweeps should be dodgeable, same as jabs are currently. I think you should at least have some measurable accountability, on magplar hands, of how to apply the dark flare heal debuff, wildly flinging into a group without a chance to miss on the debuff is a bit shaky. I am not opposed to it having an instant/near instant cast time however, or a crystal frag like proc chance. But sweeps, Dark flare debuff, and radiant as undodgeable should go imo. Then again, these are all just my opinions.

Vaoh · August 2016

I agree with almost every suggestion you wrote. Lots of good stuff.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm behind all of these except the "give DKs fear" part. Can you give some more details on how you want that to work? I'm all for giving DKs a new cc, but I have 3 reasons for not wanting a straight up AoE cc that goes through block of any kind. One, that's an iconic nightblade class mechanic. Two, DKs have talons, which alone gives them excellent AoE group utility. Combined with standard, and their group strength is massive. Three, they already have Fossilize with which to cc through block. Again, I view an AoE cc that goes through block as being a nightblade unique mechanic, of which I am biased and possessive.

That Inferno toggle thing could be rigged to pop an immediate tick doing triple damage to any target nearby who falls below 25% health. It could be mDK's execute, but then we'd be asking mDKs to fit yet another skill on their already competitive bars...

Do DKs need another cc, especially an AoE one? Maybe an AoE cc that doesn't go through block? Like a blockable AoE roar thing that knocks 3 nearby people down? That'd be unique. I think Minor Maim would be cool for that.

Dk's ... More specifically magicka since this skill would cost that.. Heals basically only function based off enemies around them. Their only cc are a projectile and a st. This would give them an ability to manage the pressure on them by being able to fluctuate the numbers of attackers they want around them. All their skills cost so much, they have to use all 3 resource pools more than any class and since inherently they would be the tankier class it makes sense to have a push pull mechanic to how they fight.. Keep enemies close to dmg and heal... I db gets really hot you can fear 3 away. I don't know why nb has to have the only ownership of this. I assure you I would be just as afraid of man-dragon as I would some random knife toting boogey man popping out of thin air.

So reduce their magicka costs across the board and give them something unique, like an aoe knockdown that can be blocked, or an aoe push back that can't be blocked but doesn't hard cc. Fear is an iconic nb ability. Just because you don't appreciate that doesn't mean we nightblades don't either. I'm serious -- putting Fear on magicka DK will make it outperform nightblades in group to the point where no one wants nightblades in groups anymore.

Also hard ccs are quickly broken free from. If you want a tool to fluctuate pressure from greater numbers piling on a magicka dk, a circular or conal push back that doesn't hard cc, or heck, which pushes people back to ~10m and knocks them down, would be not only more useful, but more unique in the game as well.

Dude, people aren't really adding nb's to groups for fear any more, a group AoE knockback would be deaths wonky wind at a beckon call. And there is zero reason why nb's should have a 3 person guarenteed cc, and maim, and a snare. Why is that snare on their at all? I mean, I get that you disagree dude, and I'm certainly not trying to argue with you about it, or make this come across negative to you personally in any fashion. But I don't see a reason DK's couldn't have something more interesting in their tool set, that ZoS already has coded, to give them something more than right click + talons.. pray pray , deep breath, talons, pray, pray.. "R" button. since they are basically confined to tanky area denial.

As far as mag NB, Veil needs its radius increased to at least templar ritual size.

Added: Like I said, it doesn't have to be exactly fear, make it a knock down, I still think it should go through dodge.

The 65% would just be the hard cap on resists, if people are going to try to build for burst to push through that, given the other changes, it should/would effect(affect?) their sustain.

Chief_ wrote: »

I agree with everything except the shuffle snare removal. Snares have been so op since 1.7 because zos, keep the snare removal but change the dodge chance somehow.

Snares would theoretically be capped at 50-60%, you could use major and minor expeditions to narrow the gap to 10-20%, we've all been bogged down too long.

Waylander wrote: »

Push out TTK and you just make each fight a resource battle and with the current ability to self heal and the slight damage decreases you propose, most 1 v 1 vs skilled opponents would last forever.

Whilst the TTK at the moment is short, I don't find it to a level where I don't feel like I can react to being jumped.

I think I would try the damage reductions you have proposed first, then increase resistances incrementally if there appeared to be a problem.

Taking out perma blockers with 65% resistance would be about as fun as seiging a keep.

You may forget that we also have poisons in this game now that increase mag/stam costs. Wouldn't be as tireless as it seems.

code65536 · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Um, for most magicka builds, that'll be a nerf.

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Um, for most magicka builds, that'll be a nerf.

You're getting 6% spell dmg, if you choose to use non-destro staff (the magicka oriented dps weapon) you would have weapon traits and cp to make up pen loss. If you use destro staff, and its skills you get more pen from that.

Stam dmg is lowered by 12% and adjusting 2h additional penetration value to bring it and magicka in line. Use two handed abilities, get more pen values, use destro abilities, get more pen values. DW have increased damage on status effects that work with both stam and magicka. Dps levels out.. forsake pen of the "main dps weapons" deal with having to apply status effects to ramp damage higher, even with DW increasing wpn/spell dmg to higher levels.

Added: Again, all hypothetical stuff mentioned.

@Joydivision yes, I know these things don't fully permeate to the root of the problems, but I can't make suggestions (regardless of the fact that they will likely never come to fruition) of things outside the capability of development.

code65536 · August 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Instead of spell pen, light armor should give 6% spell damage boost.

Um, for most magicka builds, that'll be a nerf.

You're getting 6% spell dmg

That penetration passive is actually better than the medium armor 12% weapon damage passive. Even if you were to propose changing it to a 12% spell damage passive (not a pitiful 6%), it would still be an undesirable proposition.

First, bypassing 4884 resistance will boost your damage output by approximately 7.5%.

Second, your damage output scales off of your spell damage and max magicka, so a 6% increase in spell damage will result in less than half that in actual damage since you're only boosting half of your damage stats.

For a typical magicka build, you're looking at 40K max magicka and between 2K and 2.7K base spell damage (the medium armor passive boosts the base weapon damage, not the weapon damage after weapon power buffs, guild buffs, and other amps). Let's be generous here and say around 3K base spell damage (this requires things like Alchemist buffs, which is for burst and not sustained damage). That gives you an effective pool of 70K. Boosting the spell damage by 12% would boost the effective pool to 73.6K, which corresponds to a 5% increase in damage output. And that's if we're doing 12%, not 6%, and using an generously high 3K base spell damage, which most builds won't have. With your proposed 6%, that's only about a 2.5% increase in damage output. Compared to the 7.5% from bypassing 4884 resistance, this is a huge nerf.

Now, the only time this wouldn't work out in your favor is if your target as so little spell resistance that you're over-penetrating. You'll get about 5K penetration from sharpened weapons. Around 5K from this light armor passive. If using destro staff attacks and abilities, 10% of the enemy's resistance (so 1.1-1.5K in most cases). And maybe 1-2K from CP. A typical medium armor wearer will have about 12K spell resistance. A light armor wearer will actually have more (largely due to light armor passives that more than make up for the lower base resistance of light armor; my main in light armor has over 15K resistance). So even with sharpened weapons and this light armor passive, you will not be overpenetrating or just barely overpenetrating. And even if you are facing a target with unusually low resistance that you do end up overpenetrating, you have to overpenetrate by a lot to make up for the difference of the penetration being thrice as good.

TL;DR: Concentration is an amazing passive. Far, far better than Agility. Most players don't realize this because penetration numbers are not flashy and glamorous.