Poison ingredients way, way too abundant
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »I also noticed a ninja nerf of the Alchemy daily writs by last patch.
You now have the possibility to receive poison ingredients in your alchemy container after doing a writ, instead of the usual herbs. Considering how abundant, and therefore redundant and cheap, the new poison ingredients are, this is de facto a nerf of the alchemy writs, as I believe everyone would rather have a chance of getting Columbine and Cornflower in your reward container, instead of Fleshfly Larvae and Scrib Jelly.
Again a really bad move for the economy of this game to shower us all in poison ingredients, now it its impossible to make a market for these, and poisons don't even sell in guild stores at all.
There is still a chance to get columbine and cornflower in the reward container - I just got cornflower yesterday and columbine the day before. But the chance is lower now to get those - this is the result from 2x12 characters - it is just more rare now, but still there.
And that poisons don't sell does not make me wonder - ZOS made them scale and just usable with a proper level - they are rather useless if you aren't lvl 50. I so wanted using poisons, but with this randomization and scaling and level-gating they are useless to me. And this will not even get better with One Tamriel, because those will still be level-gated.Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 1:32AM0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »I also noticed a ninja nerf of the Alchemy daily writs by last patch.
You now have the possibility to receive poison ingredients in your alchemy container after doing a writ, instead of the usual herbs. Considering how abundant, and therefore redundant and cheap, the new poison ingredients are, this is de facto a nerf of the alchemy writs, as I believe everyone would rather have a chance of getting Columbine and Cornflower in your reward container, instead of Fleshfly Larvae and Scrib Jelly.
Again a really bad move for the economy of this game to shower us all in poison ingredients, now it its impossible to make a market for these, and poisons don't even sell in guild stores at all.
There is still a chance to get columbine and cornflower in the reward container - I just got cornflower yesterday and columbine the day before. But the chance is lower now to get those - this is the result from 2x12 characters - it is just more rare now, but still there.
And that poisons don't sell does not make me wonder - ZOS made them scale and just usable with a proper level - they are rather useless if you aren't lvl 50.
I know there is a chance for old flowers still. But there is also a chance for poison ingredients instead of flowers, which is indeed a ninja nerf, as flowers sell for gold, or can be used in potions that sell for gold. Poisons and poison ingredients don't sell at all, and are therefore worth nothing on the market.
And to be frank, nothing is worth anything if it isn't level 50+. That goes for mats, ingredients, usables, equipment. That's just how a game like this works, it is endgame that's worth something, not the small steps towards it.0 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Please never tell ZOS something is too abundant. They are more likely to overreact and steath nerf something driving prices up and making our lives miserable for months all the while not even admitting they changed the drop rate.
This has happened way too many times already.3 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Please never tell ZOS something is too abundant. They are more likely to overreact and steath nerf something driving prices up and making our lives miserable for months all the while not even admitting they changed the drop rate.
This has happened way too many times already.
Too much of something is not a good thing, just like too little of something isn't a good thing either. It's up to the developers to find a middle and balanced ground. Neither extreme makes for an interesting and dynamic game.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
On my levels for example, I just have access to poisons which are way weaker than any of the enchantments I can use and on top of it poisons work just 20% of the time, wheras my enchantment are working always - so enchantments are about 8-10 times better in their effects - I would be stupid and silly, if I would want to use poisons at my levels.Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 1:41AM0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.Edited by Carbonised on August 7, 2016 1:43AM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
I think the majority is not level 50 - most are casual players who do not have the time to level like you guys do. it takes them about a year to get there. And hearing from you guys, that you can do that in a day or even just a couple of hours, does not make them want to play more.Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 1:48AM0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
There is no such thing as "level gated".
This phenomenon is solely due to the reason that level CP160 mats are rarer (not abundant) and in much, much more demand. Thus again, demand and supply. Since the majority of players are CP160+, and since they only care about making endgame gear for CP160, that of course creates a huge demand for CP160 mats and ingredients. People spend extremely little time on the various tiers below CP160. That is how it is, and how it should be.
Yes that means that there is no market (or very little anyway) under CP160, but hey, that's why they call it end game content you know.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
There is no such thing as "level gated".
This phenomenon is solely due to the reason that level CP160 mats are rarer (not abundant) and in much, much more demand. Thus again, demand and supply. Since the majority of players are CP160+, and since they only care about making endgame gear for CP160, that of course creates a huge demand for CP160 mats and ingredients. People spend extremely little time on the various tiers below CP160. That is how it is, and how it should be.
Yes that means that there is no market (or very little anyway) under CP160, but hey, that's why they call it end game content you know.
Poisons have a level requirement - you might just not see that, because you have just top characters. And due to that there is no market for these poisons - simply because the majority can just use pretty pointless poisons. Why would they even want those?Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 1:52AM0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
There is no such thing as "level gated".
This phenomenon is solely due to the reason that level CP160 mats are rarer (not abundant) and in much, much more demand. Thus again, demand and supply. Since the majority of players are CP160+, and since they only care about making endgame gear for CP160, that of course creates a huge demand for CP160 mats and ingredients. People spend extremely little time on the various tiers below CP160. That is how it is, and how it should be.
Yes that means that there is no market (or very little anyway) under CP160, but hey, that's why they call it end game content you know.
Poisons have a level requirement - you might just not see that, because you have just top characters.
Aren't you listening to what I say here? I am well aware that poisons have level requirements, so does everything else. Poisons, food, all usables. What difference does that make for the topic we are discussing here?
Poisons work exactly like potions. You use the same ingredients, and the solvents (water or base) makes the level difference.
If you are suggesting to make all potions and poisons work for all levels, and get rid of the different solvents and have just one type, then no, I disagree completely, that would be very stupid indeed.Edited by Carbonised on August 7, 2016 1:55AM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The difference is that you say, there are too many ingredients - I say, thee is level-gating and if this would be removed, there would be a market for poisons. But there is none - and if you reduce the ingredients, you could as well just not have poisons at all - the majority cannot use them anyway - they are too weak, and all the better ones are behind a level-gate.
And too many of them are stats-related or resource-related - and NPC do not have stats or resources - so a lot of them are pointless in PvE as well. This is why you have no market for them - they are just of a very limited use for most of the players.Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 1:59AM0 -
WacArnold✭✭✭All alchemy should be abundant, potions and poisons for all I say!Xbox One - North American - Ebonheart PactAnti-Pop Lv 50 Magicka Nightblade Dark ElfWacArnold Lv 50 Magicka Templar Argonian1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
There is no such thing as "level gated".
This phenomenon is solely due to the reason that level CP160 mats are rarer (not abundant) and in much, much more demand. Thus again, demand and supply. Since the majority of players are CP160+, and since they only care about making endgame gear for CP160, that of course creates a huge demand for CP160 mats and ingredients. People spend extremely little time on the various tiers below CP160. That is how it is, and how it should be.
Yes that means that there is no market (or very little anyway) under CP160, but hey, that's why they call it end game content you know.
Poisons have a level requirement - you might just not see that, because you have just top characters.
Aren't you listening to what I say here? I am well aware that poisons have level requirements, so does everything else. Poisons, food, all usables. What difference does that make for the topic we are discussing here?
Poisons work exactly like potions. You use the same ingredients, and the solvents (water or base) makes the level difference.
If you are suggesting to make all potions and poisons work for all levels, and get rid of the different solvents and have just one type, then no, I disagree completely, that would be very stupid indeed.
That is not what I suggest - I think they should be usable by all levels, but not be produceable by all - this would still require the alchemy skill levels and ranks - this way you would have a market.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »First, imo its the lack of demand more than supply. If poisons were the game breaking monsters of all the pre-release panic, even patched down, you would still make plenty. I keep one stack of cloudy drop poisons per char for missions which say use poison.
Second, i just reject thst availability should be drivem by the desires of dome to use scarcity to make more gold off others. Scarcity for unusual or rate items of specific potent capabilities makes sense, like say kuta.
Scarcity for core components like water to make potions or fat to make poisons or orher commonplace elements is absurd, especially when the argument boils down to you wsnting yo take more gold from others.
Yeah, no, this is not about 'me wanting to take more gold from others', so don't even start there.
As it is, I already make plenty of gold selling potions and ruby mats.
This is essentially about creating a healthy market for MMO crafting ingredients. If you cannot see how that is a good thing for an MMO, then I don't really want to spend time explaining it to you.
And your arguement shows that you don't know a thing about how the market works in this game. Lorkhan's Tears and most of the alchemy flowers already sit at prices around 100-300 gold per item, so you may think it is absurd to have prices for 'core components', but that is how this game works, just like the real world. Have you even checked the prices on Ruby mats lately?
Disagree as much as you like, it is the poison ingredients that are the anomaly in this game's economy, not the other way around.
Anyone who doesnt agree doesnt know what they are talking about... yawn. thats a very tired waste of pixels.
A healthy market does not mean every item has to have a "robust" aka high price. The absurd part is that the economy depends on having alke-troll-fat selling for high prices... the market is going along just fine before and will continue. UNWANTED ITEMS SCARCITY doesn't matter.
tears sell high, sure, because they are the prime ingredient for level for an entire craft at the top end not that long after they changed the progression system to drastically increase those at that high end. DUH.
Since potions are in high demand, their core levelling agent will also be.
BUT wait until tamriel one where every node levels... at least 50% - not just the DLCs.
And all the flowers dont sell for 100+ on a regular basis.
But again the key is demand... everyone uses or want to have potions available. That makes demand.
poisons did not turn out to be the game breakers they were screamed about by doomsayer after doomsayer pre-launch so... they aren't being used.
HINT: For those that dont understand supply and demand but repeat it a lot - if nobody is using poisons with any regularity, it doesn't matter how rare alke-troll-fat is... you still wont be able to sell it for 10k per troll-bacon strip.
if you think low prices for unwanted poison ingredients is an anomaly - whats the going rate for emetic russalla? (I make use of ER... unlike trolll-fat-butter which has no chance to be better than monkey-rum-butter.)
@Destyran an
Yep i have 4.3k alcahest and still cant find enough magic and stam pots
let me guess, you actually use mag and stam pots and dont use a lot of poisons?
@acw37162
Please don't, the OP failed to mention Mud crab chitin if you do anything please provide more of materials.
I have 347 370 mudcrab chitin in my inv only bc i sold over a hundred in the last few weeks. Mudcrab chitin is knowing where to farm. i just stopped after casual getting to over 500.
To me though this is the OP kind of scarcity driven market. MC is just not that useful as an ingredient. it doesn't make the top 15 ingredients list for me (the list of ones i need to make the potions sets I manufacture for any of my characters. its not on the list. I literally have no use for it.)
But i may be silly - what are you wanting to use MC for that is so driving your desire to have the crabs in your inventory?
EDIT to update the mudcrabs to the current tally. i was working from memory.
Edited by STEVIL on August 7, 2016 2:31AMProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
WacArnold✭✭✭Poison is not a good market right now, sell something else. Not every companies stocks are worth a fortune, at this time poison is down.Xbox One - North American - Ebonheart PactAnti-Pop Lv 50 Magicka Nightblade Dark ElfWacArnold Lv 50 Magicka Templar Argonian4
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Destyran✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »First, imo its the lack of demand more than supply. If poisons were the game breaking monsters of all the pre-release panic, even patched down, you would still make plenty. I keep one stack of cloudy drop poisons per char for missions which say use poison.
Second, i just reject thst availability should be drivem by the desires of dome to use scarcity to make more gold off others. Scarcity for unusual or rate items of specific potent capabilities makes sense, like say kuta.
Scarcity for core components like water to make potions or fat to make poisons or orher commonplace elements is absurd, especially when the argument boils down to you wsnting yo take more gold from others.
Yeah, no, this is not about 'me wanting to take more gold from others', so don't even start there.
As it is, I already make plenty of gold selling potions and ruby mats.
This is essentially about creating a healthy market for MMO crafting ingredients. If you cannot see how that is a good thing for an MMO, then I don't really want to spend time explaining it to you.
And your arguement shows that you don't know a thing about how the market works in this game. Lorkhan's Tears and most of the alchemy flowers already sit at prices around 100-300 gold per item, so you may think it is absurd to have prices for 'core components', but that is how this game works, just like the real world. Have you even checked the prices on Ruby mats lately?
Disagree as much as you like, it is the poison ingredients that are the anomaly in this game's economy, not the other way around.
Anyone who doesnt agree doesnt know what they are talking about... yawn. thats a very tired waste of pixels.
A healthy market does not mean every item has to have a "robust" aka high price. The absurd part is that the economy depends on having alke-troll-fat selling for high prices... the market is going along just fine before and will continue. UNWANTED ITEMS SCARCITY doesn't matter.
tears sell high, sure, because they are the prime ingredient for level for an entire craft at the top end not that long after they changed the progression system to drastically increase those at that high end. DUH.
Since potions are in high demand, their core levelling agent will also be.
BUT wait until tamriel one where every node levels... at least 50% - not just the DLCs.
And all the flowers dont sell for 100+ on a regular basis.
But again the key is demand... everyone uses or want to have potions available. That makes demand.
poisons did not turn out to be the game breakers they were screamed about by doomsayer after doomsayer pre-launch so... they aren't being used.
HINT: For those that dont understand supply and demand but repeat it a lot - if nobody is using poisons with any regularity, it doesn't matter how rare alke-troll-fat is... you still wont be able to sell it for 10k per troll-bacon strip.
if you think low prices for unwanted poison ingredients is an anomaly - whats the going rate for emetic russalla? (I make use of ER... unlike trolll-fat-butter which has no chance to be better than monkey-rum-butter.)
@Destyran an
Yep i have 4.3k alcahest and still cant find enough magic and stam pots
let me guess, you actually use mag and stam pots and dont use a lot of poisons?
@acw37162
Please don't, the OP failed to mention Mud crab chitin if you do anything please provide more of materials.
I have 347 370 mudcrab chitin in my inv only bc i sold over a hundred in the last few weeks. Mudcrab chitin is knowing where to farm. i just stopped after casual getting to over 500.
To me though this is the OP kind of scarcity driven market. MC is just not that useful as an ingredient. it doesn't make the top 15 ingredients list for me (the list of ones i need to make the potions sets I manufacture for any of my characters. its not on the list. I literally have no use for it.)
But i may be silly - what are you wanting to use MC for that is so driving your desire to have the crabs in your inventory?
EDIT to update the mudcrabs to the current tally. i was working from memory.
I make heaps of the porion that increases damage dealt by 8 % for my tank. If i have 4 k alcahest still its too rare0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Carbonised wrote: »You don't like having abundant materials?
I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.
I like having a healthy market and economy.
This game has an option to become a material gatherer and crafter, and we can join trade guilds and sell our stuff there. That way we can spend time doing what we enjoy, and earn gold doing it. Just like you can farm vet dungeons and trials and sell the drops from there for multiple of hundreds of thousand gold.
If you read my original post, the problem is supply and demand. When supply is huge, as it is now, and demand is small, there is no profit. Most people are sitting on tons of the new ingredients (just look at the drop rate of Alkahest), and it is worth nothing.
That does not create an interesting economy and a healthy market, and for some of us, the gatherer/trader/crafter aspect of this game is one we enjoy the most.
And I'm not saying they should be super rare either, but some kind of balance where they were reasonably easy to farm in some amounts, but there still was a market to buy and sell them would be more preferable.
That's how it is with alchemy ingredients and many other crafting ingredients in this game already.
I agree that some poison ingredient prices have dropped, but the reason has more to do with low demand than high supply. Keep in mind many poison reagents are also commonly used for potions and acquired from alchemy flower/mushroom nodes, not from creatures.
The reason poison solvents and some specific poison ingredient prices (like alkahest, nightshade, emetic russula, etc) have dropped since introduction of the poison system is not due to frequency of the materials, but due to the fact not enough people are using poisons.
The people who buy the most potion mats are the ones who make lots of potions daily to sell. There is low demand for the poison mats because there is very low demand to buy poisons on guild traders.
The cooldown and relatively low chance to proc might have something to do with it, but even the best quality poisons do not sell well at guild traders, while tripots, lingering health, immovable and spell power pots fly off the shelves.Edited by IcyDeadPeople on August 7, 2016 4:00AM0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »You don't like having abundant materials?
I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.
I like having a healthy market and economy.
This game has an option to become a material gatherer and crafter, and we can join trade guilds and sell our stuff there. That way we can spend time doing what we enjoy, and earn gold doing it. Just like you can farm vet dungeons and trials and sell the drops from there for multiple of hundreds of thousand gold.
If you read my original post, the problem is supply and demand. When supply is huge, as it is now, and demand is small, there is no profit. Most people are sitting on tons of the new ingredients (just look at the drop rate of Alkahest), and it is worth nothing.
That does not create an interesting economy and a healthy market, and for some of us, the gatherer/trader/crafter aspect of this game is one we enjoy the most.
And I'm not saying they should be super rare either, but some kind of balance where they were reasonably easy to farm in some amounts, but there still was a market to buy and sell them would be more preferable.
That's how it is with alchemy ingredients and many other crafting ingredients in this game already.
I agree that some poison ingredient prices have dropped, but the reason has more to do with low demand than high supply. Keep in mind many poison reagents are also commonly used for potions and acquired from alchemy flower/mushroom nodes, not from creatures.
The reason poison solvents and some specific poison ingredient prices (like alkahest, nightshade, emetic russula, etc) have dropped since introduction of the poison system is not due to frequency of the materials, but due to the fact not enough people are using poisons.
The people who buy the most potion mats are the ones who make lots of potions daily to sell. There is low demand for the poison mats because there is very low demand to buy poisons on guild traders.
The cooldown and relatively low chance to proc might have something to do with it, but even the best quality poisons do not sell well at guild traders, while tripots, lingering health, immovable and spell power pots fly off the shelves.
Well I agree. The trouble is both demand and supply. Demand we can't really do much about, it doesn't help to try and force people into using more poisons. That poisons is generally a PvP only thing probably has a lot to do with this as well. And I assume most pvp'ers like to create their own poisons, tailor them to their needs.
But we could at least nudge the market a little towards balance by decreasing the supply, which is what I am arguing for.
Ultimately, a game with too many ingredients and components that aren't even worth the time you spend picking them up is an uninteresting and unimaginative game I think. We don't need any more trash components in ESO, there are already plenty, like some of the alchemy reagents and most of the enchanting runes.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »First, imo its the lack of demand more than supply. If poisons were the game breaking monsters of all the pre-release panic, even patched down, you would still make plenty. I keep one stack of cloudy drop poisons per char for missions which say use poison.
Second, i just reject thst availability should be drivem by the desires of dome to use scarcity to make more gold off others. Scarcity for unusual or rate items of specific potent capabilities makes sense, like say kuta.
Scarcity for core components like water to make potions or fat to make poisons or orher commonplace elements is absurd, especially when the argument boils down to you wsnting yo take more gold from others.
Yeah, no, this is not about 'me wanting to take more gold from others', so don't even start there.
As it is, I already make plenty of gold selling potions and ruby mats.
This is essentially about creating a healthy market for MMO crafting ingredients. If you cannot see how that is a good thing for an MMO, then I don't really want to spend time explaining it to you.
And your arguement shows that you don't know a thing about how the market works in this game. Lorkhan's Tears and most of the alchemy flowers already sit at prices around 100-300 gold per item, so you may think it is absurd to have prices for 'core components', but that is how this game works, just like the real world. Have you even checked the prices on Ruby mats lately?
Disagree as much as you like, it is the poison ingredients that are the anomaly in this game's economy, not the other way around.
Anyone who doesnt agree doesnt know what they are talking about... yawn. thats a very tired waste of pixels.
A healthy market does not mean every item has to have a "robust" aka high price. The absurd part is that the economy depends on having alke-troll-fat selling for high prices... the market is going along just fine before and will continue. UNWANTED ITEMS SCARCITY doesn't matter.
tears sell high, sure, because they are the prime ingredient for level for an entire craft at the top end not that long after they changed the progression system to drastically increase those at that high end. DUH.
Since potions are in high demand, their core levelling agent will also be.
BUT wait until tamriel one where every node levels... at least 50% - not just the DLCs.
And all the flowers dont sell for 100+ on a regular basis.
But again the key is demand... everyone uses or want to have potions available. That makes demand.
poisons did not turn out to be the game breakers they were screamed about by doomsayer after doomsayer pre-launch so... they aren't being used.
HINT: For those that dont understand supply and demand but repeat it a lot - if nobody is using poisons with any regularity, it doesn't matter how rare alke-troll-fat is... you still wont be able to sell it for 10k per troll-bacon strip.
if you think low prices for unwanted poison ingredients is an anomaly - whats the going rate for emetic russalla? (I make use of ER... unlike trolll-fat-butter which has no chance to be better than monkey-rum-butter.)
@Destyran an
Yep i have 4.3k alcahest and still cant find enough magic and stam pots
let me guess, you actually use mag and stam pots and dont use a lot of poisons?
@acw37162
Please don't, the OP failed to mention Mud crab chitin if you do anything please provide more of materials.
I have 347 370 mudcrab chitin in my inv only bc i sold over a hundred in the last few weeks. Mudcrab chitin is knowing where to farm. i just stopped after casual getting to over 500.
To me though this is the OP kind of scarcity driven market. MC is just not that useful as an ingredient. it doesn't make the top 15 ingredients list for me (the list of ones i need to make the potions sets I manufacture for any of my characters. its not on the list. I literally have no use for it.)
But i may be silly - what are you wanting to use MC for that is so driving your desire to have the crabs in your inventory?
EDIT to update the mudcrabs to the current tally. i was working from memory.
I make heaps of the porion that increases damage dealt by 8 % for my tank. If i have 4 k alcahest still its too rare
The one that lasts for 1.6s to 2.5s depending on flavor then the cooldown?
Ok thanks. Not usually one for short duration effects with low proc and long cooldowns myself but i can see circumstances where it is useful. Not sure enough to sustain demand but hey... thanks.
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Okay, so the problem is that poisons are unappealing (in part because stuff like Maelstrom enchants are much better than what any poison can do), and your solution is to make poisons harder to make for the few people who actually do use them? Impeccable logic.
As I've said before, the prices for poison reagents are fine. If there's anything that's out of whack, it's the flower prices being too high, not the non-flower prices being too low. Traditional reagent nodes should yield 3 per node just like cloth/wood/ore nodes, and that should bring those prices closer to sanity.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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Elfbait✭✭✭It's true that damaging potions don't offer much incentive to use them, but I have had good results from stun potions. They proc often enough for me to use regularly- a few seconds of disorientation provides a nice window of opportunity for my squishier characters to take advantage of. Alchemy is still a fab skill, but overall poisons are not really potent enough for me to get excited about.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »You don't like having abundant materials?
I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.
I like having a healthy market and economy.
This game has an option to become a material gatherer and crafter, and we can join trade guilds and sell our stuff there. That way we can spend time doing what we enjoy, and earn gold doing it. Just like you can farm vet dungeons and trials and sell the drops from there for multiple of hundreds of thousand gold.
If you read my original post, the problem is supply and demand. When supply is huge, as it is now, and demand is small, there is no profit. Most people are sitting on tons of the new ingredients (just look at the drop rate of Alkahest), and it is worth nothing.
That does not create an interesting economy and a healthy market, and for some of us, the gatherer/trader/crafter aspect of this game is one we enjoy the most.
And I'm not saying they should be super rare either, but some kind of balance where they were reasonably easy to farm in some amounts, but there still was a market to buy and sell them would be more preferable.
That's how it is with alchemy ingredients and many other crafting ingredients in this game already.
I agree that some poison ingredient prices have dropped, but the reason has more to do with low demand than high supply. Keep in mind many poison reagents are also commonly used for potions and acquired from alchemy flower/mushroom nodes, not from creatures.
The reason poison solvents and some specific poison ingredient prices (like alkahest, nightshade, emetic russula, etc) have dropped since introduction of the poison system is not due to frequency of the materials, but due to the fact not enough people are using poisons.
The people who buy the most potion mats are the ones who make lots of potions daily to sell. There is low demand for the poison mats because there is very low demand to buy poisons on guild traders.
The cooldown and relatively low chance to proc might have something to do with it, but even the best quality poisons do not sell well at guild traders, while tripots, lingering health, immovable and spell power pots fly off the shelves.
It is less the fact, that we do not want to buy them, but we cannot use them, if our level is not high enough for them - that poisons are walled off from casual users is the problem - that is a huge amount of people, who cannot use them, because there are level requirements which they might fulfill some day in future, but not now - and casuals like me progress extremely slow, because we do not have much time to play and if we have time, this should be relaxing and not stressful grinding. And so progress is slow for a very long time - many months - and meanwhile poisons are no go for us - either too weak or level-gated or they are meant for PvP and useless in PvE - like those which are resource-, stats- or ultimate-related.Edited by Lysette on August 7, 2016 6:27AM0 -
nordsavage✭✭✭✭✭Find another way to make money pal as there are plenty of option. Stop trying to mess things up for us self reliant players. Besides once you make an enchant for magicka weapons it is permanent so poisons for stamina weapons need to be easily accessed to be comparable. I do not need to have to struggle to find the reagents and solvents to make my vulnerability and breaching poison that I use as a tank.I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS will anyway have to rethink all of this with one Tamriel. So far we got specific stuff in certain zones but not in others. If they will keep it like this, when leveling is no longer related to certain zones is questionable - and this will most likely require a rebalance of these things anyway - One Tamriel is for certain more work than one would expect, there are lots of details which require adjustment.0 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Honest question: IS IT WORTH using poision at all in PvE?
I think PvE works nicely without poison, as before this new feature.
I only use poision in PvP, and because I do not like PvP in ESO,
I am happy not having to care about poison ingredients at all.1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Poisons sell for A LOT at NPC vendors. Use excess ingredients to craft them and make gold this way.
Not as exciting as playing the market - I agree, but good gold for nearly zero work.
1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »ingredients do not have to be reduced, that would be trying to calm down the stallion on the wrong end - the level-gating of poisons has to go - this is where the bottleneck is and why people are not buying them - the majority of players - I guess at least - is not level 50 but somewhere on their way to it - and for them these poisons are level-gated and scaled down. Well the down scale will cease with One Tamriel - but the level-gating will still be there.
Uhm, no, this is not how things work. Usables don't sell under level 50, that's just how it is. Poison is no different from potions or foods or anything else. Potions for level 50+ sell very good, and poisions would too, if the ingredients were rarer. Lorkhan's tears are about 100 gold a piece, Alkahest is 3 gold. See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with level, but everything to do with supply.
Things don't sell under level 50, that's just the fact of life (if you sell extensively in the guild stores you would know this. And I am talking about PC server with MM addon, I have no idea about consoles).
And to state that the majority of players is under level 50 is just laughable.
But it has the same reason, why food and beverages do not sell below level 50 - they are as well level-gated.
There is no such thing as "level gated".
This phenomenon is solely due to the reason that level CP160 mats are rarer (not abundant) and in much, much more demand. Thus again, demand and supply. Since the majority of players are CP160+, and since they only care about making endgame gear for CP160, that of course creates a huge demand for CP160 mats and ingredients. People spend extremely little time on the various tiers below CP160. That is how it is, and how it should be.
Yes that means that there is no market (or very little anyway) under CP160, but hey, that's why they call it end game content you know.
Materials so you can do the writs in Craglorn can demand a high price. I disagree that the CP 160 mats are more rare. They drop in more areas than any of the other mats. Where the high price come in is how many it takes to make 160 gear so you are correct with the demand part of your statement. That aside low level mats can turn you a really good profit. A lot of players have a full assortment of characters at various levels and are willing to spend gold for mats instead of farming the low level stuff themselves. Going off on a tangent but what is really silly is how much certain blue recipes around the 20-30 range can go for. Try and get every recipe in the game and it will be the level 25 recipes that cost the most.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Carbonised wrote: »IcyDeadPeople wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »You don't like having abundant materials?
I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.
I like having a healthy market and economy.
This game has an option to become a material gatherer and crafter, and we can join trade guilds and sell our stuff there. That way we can spend time doing what we enjoy, and earn gold doing it. Just like you can farm vet dungeons and trials and sell the drops from there for multiple of hundreds of thousand gold.
If you read my original post, the problem is supply and demand. When supply is huge, as it is now, and demand is small, there is no profit. Most people are sitting on tons of the new ingredients (just look at the drop rate of Alkahest), and it is worth nothing.
That does not create an interesting economy and a healthy market, and for some of us, the gatherer/trader/crafter aspect of this game is one we enjoy the most.
And I'm not saying they should be super rare either, but some kind of balance where they were reasonably easy to farm in some amounts, but there still was a market to buy and sell them would be more preferable.
That's how it is with alchemy ingredients and many other crafting ingredients in this game already.
I agree that some poison ingredient prices have dropped, but the reason has more to do with low demand than high supply. Keep in mind many poison reagents are also commonly used for potions and acquired from alchemy flower/mushroom nodes, not from creatures.
The reason poison solvents and some specific poison ingredient prices (like alkahest, nightshade, emetic russula, etc) have dropped since introduction of the poison system is not due to frequency of the materials, but due to the fact not enough people are using poisons.
The people who buy the most potion mats are the ones who make lots of potions daily to sell. There is low demand for the poison mats because there is very low demand to buy poisons on guild traders.
The cooldown and relatively low chance to proc might have something to do with it, but even the best quality poisons do not sell well at guild traders, while tripots, lingering health, immovable and spell power pots fly off the shelves.
Well I agree. The trouble is both demand and supply. Demand we can't really do much about, it doesn't help to try and force people into using more poisons. That poisons is generally a PvP only thing probably has a lot to do with this as well. And I assume most pvp'ers like to create their own poisons, tailor them to their needs.
But we could at least nudge the market a little towards balance by decreasing the supply, which is what I am arguing for.
Ultimately, a game with too many ingredients and components that aren't even worth the time you spend picking them up is an uninteresting and unimaginative game I think. We don't need any more trash components in ESO, there are already plenty, like some of the alchemy reagents and most of the enchanting runes.
What you are proposing would not result in more people buying poisons. If the ingredients suddenly became rare, it would result in even fewer people bothering with poisons.0