Poison ingredients way, way too abundant

Carbonised · July 2016

ZOS, the new ingredients you introduced with DB are way, way too abundant in the game. 5 Alkahest dropping from a troll, 1 scuttle from every beetle, 1 egg from every spider, 1 thorax from every other torchbug. The market is getting flooded with these, and the prices are plummeting already. Alkahest is like 4.5 a piece at Master Merchant, and still dropping. Without actively farming them, I have more than 500+ of every new ingredient, as well as 2-3k Alkahest in my crafting bag. They don't sell in guild stores, and the poisons are in such a low demand that they barely sell either.

I know you did this in order to make sure everyone got enough ingredients to try out your new poisons, but you're flooding the markets with them right now.
Mobs shouldn't drop more than 1-2 Alkahests per mob, and perhaps only have them drop it 50 % or 25 % of the time. Also tone down the drop % of all the other ingredients, so we can at least get a demand for these items.

An economy is only alive and interesting as long as there is some balance between supply and demand. Right now the demand for poisons and ingredients is very little, while supply is nearly endless. This is dull and boring for an MMO that also has an element of crafting, harvesting and buying/selling.

The same could also be said for Ruby Ash. While there is a market for Ancestor Silk, Ruby Leather and do some smaller extent Rubedite Ingots, the market is so flooded with Ruby Ash that you barely sell them for more than they're worth at the NPC merchants. Yet Ruby Ash nodes are found just as abundantly as the other ones.

Couldn't you make these more in line with the actual demand?

Carbonised · August 2016

I also noticed a ninja nerf of the Alchemy daily writs by last patch.

You now have the possibility to receive poison ingredients in your alchemy container after doing a writ, instead of the usual herbs. Considering how abundant, and therefore redundant and cheap, the new poison ingredients are, this is de facto a nerf of the alchemy writs, as I believe everyone would rather have a chance of getting Columbine and Cornflower in your reward container, instead of Fleshfly Larvae and Scrib Jelly.

Again a really bad move for the economy of this game to shower us all in poison ingredients, now it its impossible to make a market for these, and poisons don't even sell in guild stores at all.

Kammakazi · August 2016

You don't like having abundant materials?

I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.

Carbonised · August 2016

Kammakazi wrote: »

You don't like having abundant materials?

I'm personally glad that these new reagents they added are easy to farm, no hassle.

I like having a healthy market and economy.

This game has an option to become a material gatherer and crafter, and we can join trade guilds and sell our stuff there. That way we can spend time doing what we enjoy, and earn gold doing it. Just like you can farm vet dungeons and trials and sell the drops from there for multiple of hundreds of thousand gold.

If you read my original post, the problem is supply and demand. When supply is huge, as it is now, and demand is small, there is no profit. Most people are sitting on tons of the new ingredients (just look at the drop rate of Alkahest), and it is worth nothing.

That does not create an interesting economy and a healthy market, and for some of us, the gatherer/trader/crafter aspect of this game is one we enjoy the most.

And I'm not saying they should be super rare either, but some kind of balance where they were reasonably easy to farm in some amounts, but there still was a market to buy and sell them would be more preferable.

That's how it is with alchemy ingredients and many other crafting ingredients in this game already.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

I imagine they wanted fighting trolls and such actually worthwhile for people. Alchemy materials also do not have hirelings.

Wreuntzylla · August 2016

I totally agree. Potion ingredients should be abundant, not poison ingredients. One is required to compete in all activities but the other is not.

Carbonised · August 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I imagine they wanted fighting trolls and such actually worthwhile for people. Alchemy materials also do not have hirelings.

Getting 1-2 Alkahest from a troll, maybe even 3 on a rare occasion, is alright. Getting 5-6 every kill is too much.

And yes, I imagine they did it too because they wanted everyone to 'try out their new and cool poisons' when they introduced them. The problem, however, is that the current market for poisons and poison ingredients is stagnant and boring.

STEVIL · August 2016

First, imo its the lack of demand more than supply. If poisons were the game breaking monsters of all the pre-release panic, even patched down, you would still make plenty. I keep one stack of cloudy drop poisons per char for missions which say use poison.

Second, i just reject thst availability should be drivem by the desires of dome to use scarcity to make more gold off others. Scarcity for unusual or rate items of specific potent capabilities makes sense, like say kuta.

Scarcity for core components like water to make potions or fat to make poisons or orher commonplace elements is absurd, especially when the argument boils down to you wsnting yo take more gold from others.

Armitas · August 2016

I wish potion ingrediants were this abundant.

Carbonised · August 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

First, imo its the lack of demand more than supply. If poisons were the game breaking monsters of all the pre-release panic, even patched down, you would still make plenty. I keep one stack of cloudy drop poisons per char for missions which say use poison.

Second, i just reject thst availability should be drivem by the desires of dome to use scarcity to make more gold off others. Scarcity for unusual or rate items of specific potent capabilities makes sense, like say kuta.

Scarcity for core components like water to make potions or fat to make poisons or orher commonplace elements is absurd, especially when the argument boils down to you wsnting yo take more gold from others.

Yeah, no, this is not about 'me wanting to take more gold from others', so don't even start there.

As it is, I already make plenty of gold selling potions and ruby mats.

This is essentially about creating a healthy market for MMO crafting ingredients. If you cannot see how that is a good thing for an MMO, then I don't really want to spend time explaining it to you.

And your arguement shows that you don't know a thing about how the market works in this game. Lorkhan's Tears and most of the alchemy flowers already sit at prices around 100-300 gold per item, so you may think it is absurd to have prices for 'core components', but that is how this game works, just like the real world. Have you even checked the prices on Ruby mats lately?

Disagree as much as you like, it is the poison ingredients that are the anomaly in this game's economy, not the other way around.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

I don't see it as a problem as long as it's all so easy to get and you're not farming for it, now if you were farming for it with the intention of selling it then I'd understand you not being happy about it. I think it's fine as it is, not that I'd complain about a small nerf but I hardly think this is something worth complaining about.

code65536 · August 2016

The drop rate of poison ingredients is just fine, with two exceptions (Alkahest rate is too high, Chitin is too low).

We need a buff to the plant/mushroom drop rate. I get 3 raw silk from a cloth node. Why am I getting just a single flower from a plant node? Make plants yield 3, and things will be far better off.

And yes, this would drop alchemy prices. And yes, that would be a good thing.

itehache · August 2016

And I am happy for that, I always play with poison and I spent many CP so I can deal more damage with poison.

I guess it has been proven that we will complain if there are not enough mats, but also if they drop too often

kargen27 · August 2016

Abundance of poison ingredients isn't hurting the economy at all. Claiming so is akin to saying the dollar menu at Taco Bell is hurting new car sells. The introduction of poisons and the ingredients to make them actually has had no significant impact on the economy good or bad.
Most new items in the game initially sell for a large amount of gold mostly because of the novelty. Then prices settle down and the market balances again. Many people assumed the poison ingredients would do the same so they farmed the ingredients hoping to cash in on that early rush to buy. Other than provisioners wanting to learn the new traits there never was a demand for the ingredients so no excessively high prices in the first few days. This didn't hurt the economy in any way at all. It had no impact on the economy.
It did cause some people to feel the time they spent farming the ingredients was a waste and maybe they are upset that time didn't pan out into profits. They should have realized early on though that these ingredients would be plentiful.

Skritha · August 2016

To make poison a worthwhile choice, it has to be comparable to what it costs to keep recharging a weapon with soul gems. If it's far easier and cheaper to just recharge an enchantment than it is to gather or buy poison mats, then the rational choice would be to drop poisons. Since Zenimax added them to the game, I assume they want them to be a viable option in this respect.

This is what the drop-rate of poisons is based around, not the crafting market.

EZgoin76 · August 2016

Who cares if there is an over abundance of these particular items. At least these won't be overpriced like every other item in the game.

Yes I know how the economy in eso works. That's why I farm everything myself.

Carbonised · August 2016

itehache wrote: »

I guess it has been proven that we will complain if there are not enough mats, but also if they drop too often

Well, yes. And why is this any surprise to you?

Reading some of these post, they seem to be written by 16 year olds who know nothing about economy.

Of course too many and too few mats is a problem. One will drive the market, and prices, close to zero, the other will create scarcity and inflated prices. That is why there needs to be a reasonable level between supply and demand.

kargen27 wrote:

Abundance of poison ingredients isn't hurting the economy at all. Claiming so is akin to saying the dollar menu at Taco Bell is hurting new car sells. The introduction of poisons and the ingredients to make them actually has had no significant impact on the economy good or bad.

You're arguing against yourself, man. Or with straw men anyway.
Nowhere have I said that poison ingredients is harming the economy elsewhere, I have said that the overabundance have failed to create an interesting and healthy market for poison ingredients.

And had you even bothered reading my post, you would see that I have not bothered farming anything related to poison. I have gotten hundreds and hundreds of poison ingredients just doing my normal things like dungeon runs, because the drops are so insanely high. So no, this is not an "I have farmed these for days and now I can't sell them boo hoo" post in any way.

Ultimately, your arguements make no sense whatsoever. Following your logic, we should just hand out Columbine and alchemy ingredients to everyone too, and ruby mats while we're at it, maybe Repora and Kuta too. Because every market is bad, and it is a good thing that everyone has access to everything all the time. Well no, it isn't. This game, like all other MMOs, is about spending real life time and effort doing something in a game that advances you, gives you progress and profit, and thus keeps you interested in the game and your investment. This is exactly how it works in all other aspects of the crafting experience as well, so why do you insist that poison ingredients should be any different.

No, what I hear is a lot of people who have not spent any skill points in crafting, who don't do material gathering, and who are extremely pleased that they have easy access to poison ingredients without lifting a finger or spending a single coin.

Ultimately this attitude is unhealthy in a vitual economy, and I'm glad that this is at least only a problem regarding poison ingredients, since the system works, more or less, in other areas of the crafting economy of ESO.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

show previous quotes

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I imagine they wanted fighting trolls and such actually worthwhile for people. Alchemy materials also do not have hirelings.

Getting 1-2 Alkahest from a troll, maybe even 3 on a rare occasion, is alright. Getting 5-6 every kill is too much.

And yes, I imagine they did it too because they wanted everyone to 'try out their new and cool poisons' when they introduced them. The problem, however, is that the current market for poisons and poison ingredients is stagnant and boring.

I could understand this mindset. On my dps alts I can melt trolls pretty rapidly. The thing is you're forgetting newbies, people who are specced tank, etc. Honestly it doesn't bother me, but then again I can easily run through 100's of potions in a night and 100+ soul gems in a gaming session (I do a lot of battle rezzing on my Temp). I think you're also forgetting some of us who chug down potions/poisons like a fish drinking water (or argonian drinking water).

kargen27 · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

show previous quotes

itehache wrote: »

I guess it has been proven that we will complain if there are not enough mats, but also if they drop too often

Well, yes. And why is this any surprise to you?

Reading some of these post, they seem to be written by 16 year olds who know nothing about economy.

Of course too many and too few mats is a problem. One will drive the market, and prices, close to zero, the other will create scarcity and inflated prices. That is why there needs to be a reasonable level between supply and demand.
show previous quotes

kargen27 wrote:

Abundance of poison ingredients isn't hurting the economy at all. Claiming so is akin to saying the dollar menu at Taco Bell is hurting new car sells. The introduction of poisons and the ingredients to make them actually has had no significant impact on the economy good or bad.

You're arguing against yourself, man. Or with straw men anyway.
Nowhere have I said that poison ingredients is harming the economy elsewhere, I have said that the overabundance have failed to create an interesting and healthy market for poison ingredients.

And had you even bothered reading my post, you would see that I have not bothered farming anything related to poison. I have gotten hundreds and hundreds of poison ingredients just doing my normal things like dungeon runs, because the drops are so insanely high. So no, this is not an "I have farmed these for days and now I can't sell them boo hoo" post in any way.

Ultimately, your arguements make no sense whatsoever. Following your logic, we should just hand out Columbine and alchemy ingredients to everyone too, and ruby mats while we're at it, maybe Repora and Kuta too. Because every market is bad, and it is a good thing that everyone has access to everything all the time. Well no, it isn't. This game, like all other MMOs, is about spending real life time and effort doing something in a game that advances you, gives you progress and profit, and thus keeps you interested in the game and your investment. This is exactly how it works in all other aspects of the crafting experience as well, so why do you insist that poison ingredients should be any different.

No, what I hear is a lot of people who have not spent any skill points in crafting, who don't do material gathering, and who are extremely pleased that they have easy access to poison ingredients without lifting a finger or spending a single coin.

Ultimately this attitude is unhealthy in a vitual economy, and I'm glad that this is at least only a problem regarding poison ingredients, since the system works, more or less, in other areas of the crafting economy of ESO.

"Nowhere have I said that poison ingredients is harming the economy"

and I quote "Again a really bad move for the economy of this game to shower us all in poison ingredients,". Key words being "economy of this game". I did read your post and expanded my answer beyond just your post. I mentioned those who farmed as being part of the reason there was such a glut of these ingredients on the market so quickly. I did not offer an opinion of whether or not the easy availability of poison ingredients was a good or bad thing. I stated it did not effect the economy of the game. Some items are rare some are not. Take a look at fishing for example. You can get a stack of guts in about a half hours time. A stack of worms takes a lot longer. The price of those items reflect that. Having some items common and some rare is good for the game. Everything rare or everything common not so good. Just happens most poison ingredients are common. Add to that it seems very few people actually are using the poisons especially outside of PVP and of course the prices are going to be really low. It is neither good or bad for the game and has no effect at all on the "economy of this game".

redspecter23 · August 2016

I believe some materials should be more abundant than others. If all the ingredients were equally rare, none of them would actually be rare. By having multiple variables including rarity and desirability, you create a dynamic trading system. Yes, some of these ingredients are worth far less than others but even then, those low value ingredients still have a place for leveling toons through alchemy in the most cost effective way.

Ourorboros · August 2016

Skritha wrote: »

To make poison a worthwhile choice, it has to be comparable to what it costs to keep recharging a weapon with soul gems. If it's far easier and cheaper to just recharge an enchantment than it is to gather or buy poison mats, then the rational choice would be to drop poisons. Since Zenimax added them to the game, I assume they want them to be a viable option in this respect.

This is what the drop-rate of poisons is based around, not the crafting market.

Pretty much this ^^^^^. Even with the 4x poison multiplier, I go through a lot of poisons since there's a 20% proc chance. Or do you think there are too many soul gems in the game as well. I'd like to see poison mats dirt cheap, so I can buy them instead of constantly stopping for every bug to gather poison mats. You could also pick on Lorkham's Tears, since you can get them so easily now. So what if the poison market craps out, there are plenty of other things that sell.

magnusthorek · August 2016

And while my girl is swimming in the oils, and not in the good sense ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), really useful things, like Corn Flowers for Spell Power potions, see very rare and expensive.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

I respectfully disagree.

Looks to me like the OP has found a market where players are actively farming and selling to undercut each other. I have not been over whelmed with poison mats.

In fact I'm constantly running out whenever I use poisons, I can easily run through a stack of 200 poisons in a couple hours of gameplay. Which leads to either needing to constantly farm or go in seasons where I shift from using poisons until I run out, then not using them until I build up a new supply.

Cost increasing poisons are extremely devastating, however the cost of actually using them constantly has many players not bothering to put time into it especially on console.

That said I almost never lose a fight when I am running cost increasing poisons. I have felt the brunt of them myself.

Poison versus Poison is a fair fight.

Poison versus no-poison and the no-poison player better burst the poison player quickly or they will lose. 5-6 seconds of 60% increase to all magicka and stamina cost is debilitating.

Ender1310 · August 2016

Your one of the reasons why the world is the way it is. Play the game and enjoy. There is enough to spend gold and time on without having to farm every two seconds for poisons. Jeesh. Why do you have to be rich in a game?

Elephant42 · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

Well, yes. And why is this any surprise to you?

Reading some of these post, they seem to be written by 16 year olds who know nothing about economy.-snip-

Arguing about how poisons are affecting the economy is moot IMHO. I think that @Skritha has the right of it:

Skritha wrote: »

To make poison a worthwhile choice, it has to be comparable to what it costs to keep recharging a weapon with soul gems. If it's far easier and cheaper to just recharge an enchantment than it is to gather or buy poison mats, then the rational choice would be to drop poisons. Since Zenimax added them to the game, I assume they want them to be a viable option in this respect.

This is what the drop-rate of poisons is based around, not the crafting market.

Poisons are in direct competition with enchantments and the availability/ease of use between the two MUST be kept similar.

Carbonised · August 2016

Elephant42 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Carbonised wrote: »

Well, yes. And why is this any surprise to you?

Reading some of these post, they seem to be written by 16 year olds who know nothing about economy.-snip-

Arguing about how poisons are affecting the economy is moot IMHO. I think that @Skritha has the right of it:
show previous quotes

Skritha wrote: »

To make poison a worthwhile choice, it has to be comparable to what it costs to keep recharging a weapon with soul gems. If it's far easier and cheaper to just recharge an enchantment than it is to gather or buy poison mats, then the rational choice would be to drop poisons. Since Zenimax added them to the game, I assume they want them to be a viable option in this respect.

This is what the drop-rate of poisons is based around, not the crafting market.

Poisons are in direct competition with enchantments and the availability/ease of use between the two MUST be kept similar.

Well I completly disagree. Poisons and enchantments are completly different.

Enchantments are not changable (unless you want to sacrifice a Kuta every time), poisons you can change on a whim.

Enchantments are universal, poisons are really only for pvp. They have no use in pve.

Enchantments last a long time, and require nothing expensive or complicated to fuel, poisons last shorter time, have more powerful effects (in pvp), and therfore require more components and skill to make.

While I agree that having poison ingredients rare and expensive would have been counterproductive too, I still believe that fiding a middle ground would have been more valuable for the gaming experience, especially for us crafters/gatherers, who already have very limited venues to explore as it is.

Destyran · August 2016

Yep i have 4.3k alcahest and still cant find enough magic and stam pots

rootimus · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

universal, poisons are really only for pvp. They have no use in pve.

Unless you count making your sword look really cool when they fire.

Elfbait · August 2016

I know man, if we're not careful, something helpful that is freely found in the game will remain free (or at least reasonably close to it.) Now where's the profit in that?!

acw37162 · August 2016

Please don't, the OP failed to mention Mud crab chitin if you do anything please provide more of materials.

It makes it more accessible to everyone when these supplies are not subject to Guild Traders Not So Free Market.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2016

Considering poisons are going off from other sources not intended... i dont see this as an issue atm.