KisoValley wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Bombard is a pain. If I didn't have my mistform, I would be a rip templar.

I think this is mostly fine. We should be forced to pick between different types of counters. The only problem I have is the lack of Magicka counters that include brief immunity for snares and roots.

It's got nothing to do about counters. It's more about the fact that you can stand on one side of the map and spam bombard and snare someone at the other side of the map.

20 meters is not the other side of the map. Regardless, if it can be properly countered, it is not an issue. Bombard spam is largely irrelevant to players with Elusive Mist, Shuffle or Forward Momentum slotted because those are counters. The same was true for entire groups when all snares and roots were trivially countered by Rapid Maneuvers.

This game is full of abilities players complain about because they are unwilling to slot counters. I think it's silly that the only real counter for Magicka builds relies on Vampirism, but aside from that it's not that difficult to deal with.

I'll just go and play 2h on every build because that is a counter to bombard even though I prefer to not play 2h, but because of 1 single ability that is a cancer to this game everyone has to play 2h because it is the only viable counter.

Or hey, I'll just go and kill my stamina pool by spamming shuffle to get away from bombard spam instead so I don't have to play 2h. But that just means I run out of stamina quickly and die anyway.

/s

Or you could just turn around and fight it out. You'd save time in the game and on the forums.

Is it really just bombard or is it all roots? I get bombard being high damage with utility - could definitely use some changes here. But are we not long overdue for some kind of changes to how roots are working? Eternal hunt rollers and malutalon tanks are pretty lame too. It doesnt need to be 6 seconds but like... can we try 2 or 3 or something?? Coming out of a dodge roll and landing rooted is laughable gameplay. I dont even feel bad for my magical templars getting left to die anymore, its just a part of life - its inevitable if they arent vampires.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Is it really just bombard or is it all roots? I get bombard being high damage with utility - could definitely use some changes here. But are we not long overdue for some kind of changes to how roots are working? Eternal hunt rollers and malutalon tanks are pretty lame too. It doesnt need to be 6 seconds but like... can we try 2 or 3 or something?? Coming out of a dodge roll and landing rooted is laughable gameplay. I dont even feel bad for my magical templars getting left to die anymore, its just a part of life - its inevitable if they arent vampires.

Great idea, lets nerf talons.

KenaPKK wrote: »

I realized the other day that in all our bickering about other things, this most pressing of PvP balance issues has no thread. We wouldn't want ZOS thinking we don't care about it just because we all quietly accept it as a given that THIS MESS IS BROKEN AF.

As a dedicated little forum zerg poster, I feel it is my duty to bring this to light.

To elaborate on the exact issue, little zerglings a can bow up and sit back spamming Bombard, rooting entire groups in place. With enough bombardlings, as I hereby christen them, you can "permaroot" groups in place, preventing even dodge rolling out. Your stam only goes so far -- there is no escape!!

Will a big group player from TF please oblige me with some videos? Alas, I am posting from my phone, making hunting down and organizing such things cumbersome.

Also anyone more educated on the exact stacking mechanics of roots and snares than myself, please feel free to bring us all up to speed.

TLDR: as much as I like permaroots in a sea of standards negates and novas, I don't.

Assorted suggested fixes that I've seen around:
- multiplicative snare stacking
- brief root immunity separate from cc immunity
- Reworking roots so they are only available to up close and risky play styles, such as DK talons
- Permabanning all stamina users

I personally like option 3.

I wish they would have different timers for different uses, absolutely. It would be nice for instance if Eclipse was not considered a root at all, and had its own unique cooldown if that were necessary. I don't know about a snare cooldown but I do think stacking should be limited to possibly a major/minor effect.

Zheg wrote: »

Daggerfall_Bones wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ive been nostalgic for gw2's dodge system for a long while. 2 dodges, before a long cd, though certain builds could tweak that a bit. No need for perma rollers, no need for perma roots, far more focused on actual tactics and synergies imo.

If only pvp balance had been a priority and done with a steady hand. Maybe it could have happened if performance back in the day was more playable like today. Oh well.

Hmm; are we talking small scale in GW2; because if not its guild Vs guild was an even bigger *** mess then the zergballs in this game. Down right utter ***, you could also dodge like crazy in GW2 depending on if you were a thief or ranger for example. Hell right now in GW2 there is a perma dodge roller setup for thief.

Yes, spvp 5v5. Maybe they broke dodge with some ESO inspiration, but back when i played there was no such thing as permadodge. You could get quicker recovery with a combo or passive, but it was never spammable and it was something you had to make sacrifices to have.

Oh the irony. "Something you had to make sacrifices to have". Like I dunno, movement. It's not "set up proxy det for a choke" maneuvers, nor "hide behind a tree until I can get full Heath" maneuvers. It is Retreating Maneuvers.

You now have to make sacrifices to continuously avoid a fight. Mist you gain mobility but lose the ability to cast. You can go 2H but then you lose some spell damage slotting something that doesn't allow you to have all the things. Retreating maneuvers you actually have to retreat now or it loses its effectiveness.

Why don't you offer up some means of retreating that actually makes a sacrifice? A one button snare immunity for individual players. No speed. Something magicka based where you could still cast but then you suffer from 50% more damage from the back. Something where you actually have to make a scarfice for retreating? You have to take up a slot, take more damage, and have to slot something else for speed. Or go back to no forward camps. With forward camps you have to chase down the other players. It takes forever as it is.

Categorically false. Rapids is almost useless as a 'retreat' because there isnt a single skill i can cast as a templar that doesnt break it. Heals, cleanse, shield, it all breaks it. Rapids is used for max expedition while on a horse, i dont even pay attention when i have it on me in combat because anything i do will remove it, particularly if im trying to help someone on the back line stay alive. Damage is too high to be able to 'retreat' without having to cleanse/heal yourself or an ally in a super majority of engagements. That functionality does not work with the current combat system.

Permaroot isnt healthy pvp in ANY game. Other mmos have learnt that. Same goes for perma CC. It doesnt matter if you have a gripe about how groups function in ESO, you dont solve one problem by introducing a problem thats far worse.

So you have to sacrifice casting for movement? Bombard may permaroot you because you don't like the available counters or have the willingness to slot them but it just ain't so for everyone. There is no permaroot, I've come up against 100s of groups with my group and have seen this once when combined with negate and I was out of stamina. We move in a way that I avoid kiting others into chokes and commit to the battles because you just can't ball up like you used to without consequences.

And the skill that removed the snare, gave you immunity, hit the entire group and buffed your speed is called Retreating Maneuvers not Rapids nor "Heal my entire group, shield myself while purging" Maneuvers. All you have to do Is focus on intent of the skill and not cast to get the benefits. If you are in the middle of a battle and expect to just dip each time things aren't going your way with no sacrifices or consequences I don't know what to tell you. Don't lead your group into a no win situation in the first place if your are that concerned with having to respawn once and a while.

http://esoacademy.com/skills/retreating-maneuver/

I don't have a gripe about how the groups function. I have to make choices even sacrifices to contend with different styles of play. The meta changes and the group dynamics change. There are some groups that I'm glad to see because they can and do wipe us with smaller numbers but we learn and move on.

Balance is always a work in progress and even though I believe what you want is never coming back I wouldn't be surprised if it does. I'm fine with it either way.

The problem with maneuvers is that it was double nerfed. Not only nerfed by not getting it from non group members and they made it so maneuvers are booty and like insta break when you cast literally anything. I think just making it so you cant get maneuvers from people outside your group was enough and they didn't need to go breaking the entire skill. Would still rather see maneuvers fixed than perma snare.

Zheg wrote: »

Bones, good for you. Im glad you are able to always optimally steer your group into ideal locales. For the rest of us, when surrounded by 60+ under siege and bombard spam, we're able to identify broken mechanics. Rapids worked with heals for farrrrrr longer than it did without. It wasnt until a misguided attempt to eliminate ball groups 6 months ago that permaroot even became an issue. You could still catch people on back lines back in the day, you just couldnt take full movement away.

Mist form is and has been in my bars for a very long time, but when 90+% of the population is or feels pressure to become a vampire, thats hardly balance now is it? Stop defending the broken mechanic. Its akin to defending the broken CC chains that made you lose control of your character. Could you counter with immovable and immov pots? Yes, but that doesnt mean it was ok to defend that garbage mechanic.

I'm with you on vampire, with the changes to the fighters guild there is little to no consequences anymore. I don't like it but I'm a vampire in PvP.

If we didn't have bombard in his heavy armor meta there was be no killing the backline. All retreating maneuvers would be used for is to attack with proxy det, retreat for 8 secs and det again, heal up and det again. We would be forced not into just vampire. We'd all be forced into heavy armor, vicious death and proxy det. Who ever got the jump would be the winner.

You've got to pay a penalty for retreating. Is Bombard ideal? No. I'm sure they'll eventually figure something out.

I didnt know about this, until this thread. thank you.

I tried this in Blackwater on a low level stam build and it works great. If everybody would do this, it would be amazing. I dont really see the point in anything else.

especially on the Ale bridge. you spam bombard when they are running through the corridor with somebody in the center with seige and you wipe out the entire zerg because they can't run away. gg

You can also just spam it while running around or looking for stealthers as it brings them out of stealth. gg

The only thing is there is a shuffle bug (or shuffle stacking) where some players are like 80% dodge. but I can bombard more than they can dodge.

This is way easier than trying to use ice staff and root 1 person at a time. that was too much work.

Honestly, if anybody is up for it, I think we should just make an entire group of bombard spammers. it does decent enough damage and especially if you got like 20 or 30 people all spamming bombard.

advanced tactics are using a gap closer and then spamming bombard and then dropping ults while in middle of the zergball. I was using ambush->bombard->soul tether. they have no stamina to break the stun either gg

stam sorc might be good too, gap closer->negate->spam bombard