KenaPKK wrote: »

You shoulda said "yea I agree, but only with Kena's range nerf," not all this other drama.

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg

I put myself in your build's shoes. In fact, in all of these threads and even in my very last post to you, I systematically put myself in every possible build's shoes in my analysis of radiant. It's right there in your quote.

You say "well your build deals with snipe and has a hard time with radiant; it's the opposite for mine, so balanced."

No, I said that my build struggles with snipe objectively more than your build. I do not have the luxury of mist form mobility, making me less mobile than your magplar. I do not have the luxury of a purify. I do not have the luxury of a burst heal. I cannot use snb and expect to kill anything, unlike you, so thus I cannot block as much either.

And yet I do not struggle with snipe, or arrow, or crushing shock, or frag, or any other ranged ability spam NOT because my build or class inherently counters them or has a mechanism to deal with them -- because they DON'T -- but because I utilize windows of counterplay in the overarching mechanics as well as superior gameplay to avoid them. Read that sentence again because it went right over your head the last time.

My build copes with ranged ability spam of ALL kinds worse than ALL viable pvp builds except for 2h/bow stam sorc (rip), and yet NO ranged ability spam gives me any notable trouble except for radiant.

This is because ALL OTHER ranged abilities, when spammed down on a fight from a distance, have inherently more opportunities for counterplay than radiant. PERIOD. I have demonstrated this in my last post. Since you seem to be spinning your wheels, I'll give you a little direction. You are in a position where you must either refute or justify radiant's higher power budget yet lower inherent counterplay than pretty much every other ranged damage skill in the game. If you cannot do so or do not want to, then you are done here.

That is not a matter of my build or your build. That is a matter of access to counterplay across ALL builds. LoS is broken with radiant, it can't be dodged, and blocking it doesn't work because it's a channel and you'll just drain stam while standing still until you die.

I'm trying so hard to remain civil, but you're sitting in a bubble......and telling me I'm the one in a bubble......when I clearly demonstrated step by step how all builds EVER can cope with this skill. Go play magicka DK or stam sorc solo in open world for a week, and tell me how you feel about radiant at the end.

@KenaPKK The fact that LoS is not working as well as it should does NOT mean that skill X should be nerfed. You do not nerf a skill because a bug exists for something else. You fix the bug, you lobby for ZOS to prioritize it. Should SA have been nerfed when camo hunter was bugged and people could oneshot with a stealthed heavy attack into SA? You would have felt strongly the answer is no, so do not move the goal posts for jesus beam because you dislike the skill or because it's not your class.

You're still going into specifically what your build does well or struggles against. I'm not suggesting that snipe is more dangerous to some magplar builds than jesus beam, I'm saying it's a fact. People may disagree because they're thinking about their own builds, but if you are NOT running the 5 heavy malubeth cheese (which is likely to get nerfed) then you rely on harness and heals for active defense and from personal experience I can assure you that jesus beam is less of a struggle on those builds - joy has alluded to this as well, as can most of my templar friends. There were times when I'd be sieging an outer wall up front and I'd joke in TS about how I'm going to die because there were multiple jesus beams on me while I was being ranged down by others (hint, I didn't actually die, I just kept my shields and purify up and healed when needed). Those are the situations where everyone is complaining about jesus beam, if I can do fine where there's a random smattering of potatoes coming down to melee me, counter siege, bowtards firing, jesus beams spammed at full health ... then that reinforces that there are indeed builds where jesus beam is less of a threat than other ranged skills. You want to talk pressure? Try being someone that gets tab targeted by raids.

Answer these questions:
*Is the skill fine in a 1v1?
*Is the skill fine in smallman fighting?
*Is the skill fine when outnumbered?

If your answer is yes, yes, no - then you are only looking to 'balance' the skill when you're outnumbered, and for what I consider obvious reasons that should never be the goal of balance decisions.

You say there is a lack of counter play for the different classes. I say that there is enough counterplay (sorcs may be the exception, but I'll get to that in a bit). You may not use it, but cloak especially on a magicka nb should be near as effective on jesus beam spam as purify. There is no excuse to argue a mag nb is having a hard time with the skill when they are not slotting their best counter and one of their best utility skills. The mechanics may be slightly bugged in the current patch, but again, you do not nerf other skills because a bug exists elsewhere. Think about how often we get balance changes - what do you think were to happen if the bug gets fixed? The skill will remain nerfed ad infinitum. What a terrible idea to balance around bugs. Back on topic, even on a stam nb, you can cloak about as many times as you're telling my magplar to dodge those snipes. I'd also point out because @Vangy seems to have pie-in-the-sky visions about 5 snipes always being fired off from different players at the same time, that one dodge roll will very likely not cover all of them and a magicka build can only do it so much. The counter play exists for snipe in that example - but it is just as limited (because of resources) as it is for a stam nb to cloak it.

I still maintain that you cannot even get past the premise for why the nerf convo should even begin. If you are only ever arguing the skill needs nerfs because of outnumbered situations, and you are arguing there is a lack of counter play because bugs exist that impact the counter play, then you are walking a dangerous path on balance. Those two things should never be the driver of nerfs or buffs. But let's do a class run down since you seem so focused on the counter play:

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Templar: magicka templar should have no issue with jesus beam. If you are, you need to re-do your build. stam templar should be one of the best suited stam builds to deal with jesus beam, they will still struggle with it. They can purify about as often as a magplar can be expected to dodge roll something like snipe. Balanced for both styles of play imo.

NB: magicka nb should come in right behind magplar for being able to deal with jesus beam because of cloak. My survival is healing ward, harness, and purify - you can do the same thing but replace purify with cloak. stam nb are right behind stamplar because cloak counters just like purify for jesus beam and you can do it as often as a magplar can dodge roll. Balanced for both styles of play imo.

DK: both mag and stam struggle, stam to a great extent. Mag can still harness and healing ward, but that is unlikely to be enough in an outnumbered situation unless you have good access to LoS. Stam have nothing other than stam heals. I still say this is balanced for both because of wings. Wings reflects the majority of skills a templar would dps with - the only exception besides jesus beam is jabs, and jabs are highly counterable on a DK because of talons and fossilize. I know DKs hate jesus beam, but templars hate your wings just as much. When the only thing I can do is heavy resto attack you or jesus beam you for damage, I don't see you whispering me "hey, sorry all of your javelins, DFs, and reflective lights were bounced back in your face, it must suck to have your damage countered so well by a DK" ... I do see whispers complaining they died to jesus beam though. Stam DK was the absolute best counter to a magplar in the past few patches imo, so I feel no sympathy that they struggle against one skill in the magplar arsenal. Both lack counterplay to jesus beam, both are strong against the super majority of templars' other damage. It has a very strong rock/paper/scissor balance.

Sorc: no real strengths against magplar, no in class counter. They have the best mobility when streak works, so they can LoS and stun to interrupt better than others. They are already invested in shields, so they play similar to my magplar with healing ward and harness, but lack purify. They can run purge, but purge sucks. The only bonus is that most mag already slot crushing shock. Fix purge, maybe give a class counter, I'd be ok with that buff. Stam sorc same problem as stam DK, but no wings to justify jesus beam being so strong against it - perhaps the worst draw of the lot, but stam sorcs are used to that unfortunately. Perfectly fine buffing stam sorc.

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That is a pretty balanced spread Kena. There are gaps (stam sorc in particular), but for the majority, there can be sound arguments made that the class options for counterplay exist to the extent that they should. I'd finish by suggesting that maybe ZOS wants to stop the 1vX style of farming potatoes, and jesus beam was an option to do so. They wanted to stop the ball group play, I'm sure some of the farmed potatoes find 1vX just as frustrating and toxic. But again, you still can't argue past the premise, and that's before we even begin to debate the specifics.

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)

Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.

1. Make it dodge rollable
2. Require execute range
3. Make it so it will not execute unless the first hit is on an already low health target..aka no pre-beaming.
4. Give temps a better gap closer or run buff so they stop complaining.

KenaPKK wrote: »

@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?

Rikumaru wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?

First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.

As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.

RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?

Hashtag_ wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?

First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.

As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.

RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?

For the last time, ITS A CHANNEL. It is not the same as other executes, you do not use it the same way, you dont have the same counters or vulnerabilities with other executes. Its a different skill, a different mechanic, so enough already. Comparing it to other executes as some kind of 'proof' is as asinine an argument as jules' video a few months ago that tried to do just that. If you want to talk about the functionality, or damage, fine, debate away - i wont agree with you, but at least those are parameters that make sense.

Since it is a channel the 1st tick should not be instant and 100%