Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg @maxjapank if the execute threshold is 25% and you use the ability at 25%, they'll almost always just die, especially with the initial tick that hits as the animation starts. Killing the target will end the channel ya know, and killing people with beam happens really quickly when you use your execute properly.

Actually... killing the target does NOT end the channel :P I can't tell you how many times my beam lingers for the full duration on a dead body if I don't cancel it myself.

Yes, they are most likely going to die, but there are also many times where they are healed up and now you've been channeling something making yourself vulnerable to someone else's incoming attacks (or theirs). The skill also slows your character while channeling, not so fun in the current meta where you're snared more often than not by regular abilities.

Again. Spoken like someone who plays a Magicka Templar. As I'd expect.

@Zheg Don't you get tired of people posting who don't know jack $%&# about the class?

If I can't speak against beam because I'm not a Templar player, then you and Zheg as a Templar players may not speak in its defense because bias. Identical and equally poor logic. Also notice the more experienced Templars than Zheg speaking in favor of a buff in this thread, including the OP. Idk who you are because I can't see signatures.

This is a bug that I have not seen in Cyrodiil ever and which has never come up in conversation, and I know a lot of excellent Templars with more comprehensive experience than Zheg. If it truly exists, though, then it is a bug and does not influence balance discussions. Have it fixed.

Regardless, you need to face my arguments regarding the skill if you wish to salvage your place here. Stop sidetracking the discussion and trying to make it personal.

I didnt say that you couldnt talk about templars, most playerd have alts and play multiple classes. Most can make educated inferences from extensive experience fighting another class.

Youre not going to hurt my feelings kena. There is always someone better and always someone more knowledgeable. Ive played templar through and through for a very, very long time, and spent 99% of my time in cyro. Please do not insinuate i have less experience with the class than all of your l33t friends. If wager ive been in more keep fights than many of them combined. It might be a different kind of experience than what you do, but its a wealth of experience none the less.

Anyway... i responded to your earlier post and addressed everything you said. Are you still thinking, or keeping the popcorn eaters in suspense?

KenaPKK · July 2016

@Seri ew lag. That messes up all sorts of abilities, though. Imo balance shouldn't be influenced by anything that isn't an intentional game feature.

Roechacca wrote: »

What ever balance your looking for, just keep in mind it's easy to throw this class off balance.

Absolutely true.

Seri · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Seri ew lag. That messes up all sorts of abilities, though. Imo balance shouldn't be influenced by anything that isn't an intentional game feature.

Never said it should be - just stating my observations of when I beam dead things. Though I still wouldn't mind if NA and Oceanic traded ping times/server locations for a week :P

maxjapank · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

If I can't speak against beam because I'm not a Templar player, then you and Zheg as a Templar players may not speak in its defense because bias. Identical and equally poor logic.

It doesn't have anything to do with bias. The problem is that when you often say something, it's untrue. Honestly, it's as simple as that. Quit speaking about things that you don't know about.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Regardless, you need to face my arguments regarding the skill if you wish to salvage your place here. Stop sidetracking the discussion and trying to make it personal.

It isn't me who is sidetracking the discussion. Again, it is often you with your untrue statements.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Using it in outnumbered situations does not require timing and situational awareness if you're far enough away where you can't be punished for being a potato.

I didn't say that. So once again, quit saying things that are untrue. In 1v1 and when facing an equal number of oponents, it does require timing and situational awareness. But even when you play in a large group, the snare from the channel can leave you a few steps behind your group. You can't always risk using Radiant or you will be caught in an outnumbered situation.

Being a potato is trying to 1vX, and then coming here and complaining because X beat you.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Idk who you are because I can't see signatures.

My toons name is Alchuri. I play a healer/dps Templar.

KenaPKK · July 2016

@maxjapank Did you even read my posts? Your responses suggest you have not.

I didn't say you said anything. I simply quoted your statements and stated holes in the logic or use cases. Stop being so emotional and go back and read through it all again rationally.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Seri wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Seri ew lag. That messes up all sorts of abilities, though. Imo balance shouldn't be influenced by anything that isn't an intentional game feature.

Never said it should be - just stating my observations of when I beam dead things. Though I still wouldn't mind if NA and Oceanic traded ping times/server locations for a week :P

I would cut myself. No clue how y'all play like that.

maxjapank · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@maxjapank Did you even read my posts? Your responses suggest you have not.

I didn't say you said anything. I simply quoted your statements and stated holes in the logic or use cases. Stop being so emotional and go back and read through it all again rationally.

lol..nice try. Again..who is sidetracking the discussion?

frozywozy · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Channeled does in fact make you vulnerable, i know its hard for other classes to get because so few have casted or channeled abilities, but channeled skills are not fun.

People think it's easy to land a kill with Radiant. They say it is a skillless one-button win ability, but it's not. It takes proper timing and situational awareness. No one in this thread has argued against Radiant being balance 1v1. They say it's fine in this situation.

But they say that in outnumbered situations or in zergs that it is unbalanced. And I would still argue that in outnumbered situations, you are likely to die anyway. And if the problem is the range of Radiant, then reduce the range to that of gap closers so that you can interrupt the caster. Otherwise, build better or drag the players out to a more even numbered fight depending on your skill.

Dude I got near 1k killing blows with RD in less than 2weeks on a character with no points in damage. Killing people with RD is a joke. It requires no skill whatsoever. Requires no timing whatsoever. I'm sure I could kill just as many using my cat's paw on my mouse.

Waylander · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Dude I got near 1k killing blows with RD in less than 2weeks on a character with no points in damage. Killing people with RD is a joke. It requires no skill whatsoever. Requires no timing whatsoever. I'm sure I could kill just as many using my cat's paw on my mouse.

The bolded part made me laugh out loud at work and now I think people are onto me not doing much work!

I will go on the record as saying I have never died to just Alchuries radiant. There are always 2-4 others on the recap as you guys roll pretty deep in the temps these days!

I think radiant is a bit overtuned from my experience playing all characters. Totally anecdotal.

KenaPKK · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@maxjapank Did you even read my posts? Your responses suggest you have not.

I didn't say you said anything. I simply quoted your statements and stated holes in the logic or use cases. Stop being so emotional and go back and read through it all again rationally.

lol..nice try. Again..who is sidetracking the discussion?

Try doing what I said.

maxjapank · July 2016

Waylander wrote: »

I will go on the record as saying I have never died to just Alchuries radiant. There are always 2-4 others on the recap as you guys roll pretty deep in the temps these days!

Well..thank you. I guess

We have always run with Temps. Most of the core have been Temps since forever. That's just how it's been.

maxjapank · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Dude I got near 1k killing blows with RD in less than 2weeks on a character with no points in damage. Killing people with RD is a joke.

If you use it as an execute....it should be the spell that has killed most of your opponents. Now please tell me that all you did to get those kills was spam Radiant with nothing else or noone else doing anything else. Dude.

Zheg · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Channeled does in fact make you vulnerable, i know its hard for other classes to get because so few have casted or channeled abilities, but channeled skills are not fun.

People think it's easy to land a kill with Radiant. They say it is a skillless one-button win ability, but it's not. It takes proper timing and situational awareness. No one in this thread has argued against Radiant being balance 1v1. They say it's fine in this situation.

But they say that in outnumbered situations or in zergs that it is unbalanced. And I would still argue that in outnumbered situations, you are likely to die anyway. And if the problem is the range of Radiant, then reduce the range to that of gap closers so that you can interrupt the caster. Otherwise, build better or drag the players out to a more even numbered fight depending on your skill.

Dude I got near 1k killing blows with RD in less than 2weeks on a character with no points in damage. Killing people with RD is a joke. It requires no skill whatsoever. Requires no timing whatsoever. I'm sure I could kill just as many using my cat's paw on my mouse.

You're a cat person. I'm a dog person. This explains so much.

Orchish · July 2016

Reduce the range, make it break when you roll dodge. They can keep the insane damage.

Zheg · July 2016

Orchish wrote: »

Reduce the range, make it break when you roll dodge. They can keep the insane damage.

Sounds like a stam player that wants to go back to having zero counters to dodge roll. If you make jesus beam undodgeable, make sure you're adding in multiple checks and balances to dodge roll from other sources of damage.

Lokey0024 · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

maxjapank · July 2016

Lokey0024 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

No, it isn't. It's a channel. But please, please make it completely instant. Would love the mobility.

KenaPKK · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

No, it isn't. It's a channel. But please, please make it completely instant. Would love the mobility.

He means that there isn't a cast time or delay before damage is dealt. It's actually a good point. Instant cast and channel are not mutually exclusive.

Van_0S · July 2016

@Zheg, @Joy_Division
Don't waste your time with KenaPKK , he's just a troller!Just ignore him.

The solution that fengrush has given, is bad for pve players . Also,reducing the range is laughable in this thread, like 5-10 meters??
What you guys think, its an AoE damage like steel turnado or single instant execute that can be weaved like executioner/impale/killers blade?

RD is a channel ability and the caster become vulnerable when he uses that spell.
Just think for sec, if I cast RD at 5meters, when I am fighting 2 players. One of them will block my RD and dodgeroll or interrupt me , but the other player will nuke me.

So, what happens with this skill, when the range is nerfed, you can't escape from battle because a templar has no mobility, even his defence that is blazing shield is worthless, also once RD is casted on a player, that player can see this opportunity to use his famous gap closer on him because the caster can't do any thing at that particular moment when he is casting that channel ability.

maxjapank · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

No, it isn't. It's a channel. But please, please make it completely instant. Would love the mobility.

He means that there isn't a cast time or delay before damage is dealt. It's actually a good point. Instant cast and channel are not mutually exclusive.

And yet the snare still applies and the first tick won't kill you unless you are under 10% health. In which case anything else will kill you too. That's a good point. And please let the man speak for himself.

KisoValley · July 2016

Got the response I wanted out of Zheg a few pages back so that's good to see, looks like I win again.

However this @maxjapank guy saying if you don't play templar you have no right to comment sounds like a broccoli to me. I play templar and imo RD needs to be nerfed (due to all the reasons posted on this thread), I have the right to say it because I play templar what's your next argument? 'You haven't played templar beta so you're not allowed to comment' is a good one I thought for you you should try that next time.

KenaPKK · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

No, it isn't. It's a channel. But please, please make it completely instant. Would love the mobility.

He means that there isn't a cast time or delay before damage is dealt. It's actually a good point. Instant cast and channel are not mutually exclusive.

And yet the snare still applies and the first tick won't kill you unless you are under 10% health. In which case anything else will kill you too. That's a good point. And please let the man speak for himself.

I am. You misunderstood him.

And 10% is like 2100 health for the average player. That's a fifth or less of a Radiant tick at that health level.

KenaPKK · July 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

Got the response I wanted out of Zheg a few pages back so that's good to see, looks like I win again.

However this @maxjapank guy saying if you don't play templar you have no right to comment sounds like a broccoli to me. I play templar and imo RD needs to be nerfed (due to all the reasons posted on this thread), I have the right to say it because I play templar what's your next argument? 'You haven't played templar beta so you're not allowed to comment' is a good one I thought for you you should try that next time.

Hm better than a potato I suppose. I like my broccoli with melted cheese.

KenaPKK · July 2016

People keep mentioning blocking radiant. You don't block radiant, dudes. Bad idea. You'll sit there draining stam forever until you die. You have to turn on beamtards aggressively. Playing defensively against them gets you killed. That's why long ranged beamtards are a problem -- many builds can't reach them.

KisoValley · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

People keep mentioning blocking radiant. You don't block radiant, dudes. Bad idea. You'll sit there draining stam forever until you die. You have to turn on beamtards aggressively. Playing defensively against them gets you killed. That's why long ranged beamtards are a problem -- many builds can't reach them.

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself, this is why you're not a broccoli.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

Van_0S wrote: »

@Zheg, @Joy_Division
Don't waste your time with KenaPKK , he's just a troller!Just ignore him.

The solution that fengrush has given, is bad for pve players . Also,reducing the range is laughable in this thread, like 5-10 meters??
What you guys think, its an AoE damage like steel turnado or single instant execute that can be weaved like executioner/impale/killers blade?

RD is a channel ability and the caster become vulnerable when he uses that spell.
Just think for sec, if I cast RD at 5meters, when I am fighting 2 players. One of them will block my RD and dodgeroll or interrupt me , but the other player will nuke me.

So, what happens with this skill, when the range is nerfed, you can't escape from battle because a templar has no mobility, even his defence that is blazing shield is worthless, also once RD is casted on a player, that player can see this opportunity to use his famous gap closer on him because the caster can't do any thing at that particular moment when he is casting that channel ability.

Wait - how or why is this bad for PvErs? Why would I specifically detail solutions in those posts with phrases like 'so it doesnt impact PVE negatively' only to have you come say my solution is bad for PVE?

Zheg, and Joy_Division both agreed on this point being unfair.

I think this is where the skill balance starts at. Honestly - its really for your benefit templars. This skill will get nerfed worse if you dont try to get on board with some sort of fix. The amount of templar rerolls in conjunction with beam spam in cyrodiil should be telling to you. These things dont change overnight - but theyre going to change.

Any templars coming here boldly stating theres nothing wrong with beam and its current overuse in cyro right now is a result of self delusion or inexperience.

Solariken · July 2016

So last night in IC I was solo fighting 3 people on a flag (2 spambush Nb's). I'm thinking "no problem, I can out play these scrubs," and suddenly I start getting beamed from the top platform... I block-casted a Javelin to put the kibosh on that sh*t, 1 second later got beamed again, cleansed, beamed again, cleansed, beamed again, cleansed, beamed again, dead. At least I took down the two spambush Nightblades - one died to my Eternal Hunt rune and the other died to my Re-Trap.

My recap was 5x Radiant Oppression, all from that same dude. I have to admit my foot is in my mouth right now. Lol.

I was raging for sure... but I still don't know what should be done about this skill.

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

People keep mentioning blocking radiant. You don't block radiant, dudes. Bad idea. You'll sit there draining stam forever until you die. You have to turn on beamtards aggressively. Playing defensively against them gets you killed. That's why long ranged beamtards are a problem -- many builds can't reach them.

Kena that might be why you have so much trouble with the skill, well that and you not slotting cloak.

You do not block for 3 seconds, if youre at a point where youre low health you block and heal then let go of block immediately after, giving yourself breathing room. It stops the bleeding, the more dmg jesus beam or other things do the more dmg the beam will start ticking. If you mitigate the early ticks you are under less pressure after hitting your heal. Remember, i use healing ward as my main heal because htd is bugged and my build cant support the cost of breath. This is why stam get so cranky, their instinct is to dodge at low health, pop vigor, and rejoin the fight in 2 seconds. They dont block because they lose stam regen, its not as normal a reaction for them like dodging is.

In fact most of the time purify is what i hit after i hit harness. If i get a shield buffer it doesn't matter as much if a jesus beam is on me, harness becomes free magicka at that point. It depends on what hp im at, but sometimes ill just heal up and hit harness - it keeps a templar out of the fight and doing useless damage for a few seconds and lets me focus on others.

Anyway, if you never block any of jesus beam dmg, no wonder people die so much. They even reduced the number of ticks and made the ticks harder, so blocking the damagr when youre low is even easier. Kena you have siphon attacks, if i can block a portion of jesus beam on a templar then you can certainly figure it out on a nb.

maxjapank · July 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

Got the response I wanted out of Zheg a few pages back so that's good to see, looks like I win again.

However this @maxjapank guy saying if you don't play templar you have no right to comment sounds like a broccoli to me. I play templar and imo RD needs to be nerfed (due to all the reasons posted on this thread), I have the right to say it because I play templar what's your next argument? 'You haven't played templar beta so you're not allowed to comment' is a good one I thought for you you should try that next time.

Never said if you don't play a Templar you have no right to comment. Never said that. And I'll pass on what I think about someone who just jumps in the conversation without reading properly. /l2readproperlymaybelol?

Lokey0024 · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ffs....I am not going to support any change to Radiant other than a slight decrease in range. A decrease in range to make it equal to gap closers such as Crit Charge, etc. And if you make it shorter, then make it instant and not a channel.

Honestly, it really is a l2p thing. There are so many things you can do to avoid Radiant. And the only thing Stam users have complained about is not being able to interrupt it with gap closers. So fine. Get that wish and bugger off.

Again, if you are dying to skills in outnumbered fights, then build better or drag those people out and make the fight smaller.

Already is instant.

No, it isn't. It's a channel. But please, please make it completely instant. Would love the mobility.

So that one tick for 12k instantly after casting (if crit) is only part of the damage this ability has in execute range? Needs a nerf then.

Or maybe, just maybe, you have no idea wtf you're talking about.