Auction House

Krym · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

Was it worth it? You lost what, one hour of playtime to save a few thousands gold?

Certainly you don't expect everyone is able to have that much playtime?

who says he was looking for it? you are aware people come by guild merchants simply by chance, especially the ones outside?

found dirt cheap hircine/agility pieces on a trader I came across after leaving an instance. it didn't took any more of my time than riding across it and picking up a flower.

if that stretches your daily allowance maybe a game that doesn't require such a tremendous amount of time to play would be better suited.

EDIT: you can check most merchants in less than 15 minutes, you can even cut that time down when you have a guild keeping an eye out for some stuff you need.

Makkir · July 2016

I'm a senior manager at a nationally-recognized corporation I certainly don't need a job. I invest maybe ninety minutes a night during weekdays and maybe two to three hours a night on the weekends. anyone has the same ability to do what I do. And that is my honest play time I am pretty sure that the majority of folks spend more time in game than I do.

If you are truly interested in what you can do to drastically increase your your gold each week you can either search for some of my previous posts or you can send me a PM and I will be happy to lay it out for you

Makkir · July 2016

I'm at work right now as well on my cell phone I'll do you one better and I'll post direct links to some of those posts as soon as I'm in my office and able to look for them

Gargath · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

I have a real job. I'm at work right now
Sounds like you need to get a real job lol. No offense intended.

You must be zos employee or your job must be extremely boring, if you spend your time here instead

. Anyway it's good to have a job with enough time for discussions

.

Zerok · July 2016

Krym wrote: »

if that stretches your daily allowance maybe a game that doesn't require such a tremendous amount of time to play would be better suited.

No because I believe the game should cater to the needs of the majority. And I feel that, on this issue, my interests are aligned with those of the majority, especially when it comes to implementing antitrust laws within the game to prevent what Makkir is doing.

ZOS_PeterT · July 2016

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Makkir · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

Krym wrote: »

if that stretches your daily allowance maybe a game that doesn't require such a tremendous amount of time to play would be better suited.

No because I believe the game should cater to the needs of the majority. And I feel that, on this issue, my interests are aligned with those of the majority, especially when it comes to implementing antitrust laws within the game to prevent what Makkir is doing.

what prevents you from farming nightwood? Youll come back at me say you have better things to do, because you value the things you enjoy in game subtantially higher than what I and others enjoy. It's the same reason the pve crowd hates the pvp crowd (bc the latter cries for pvp nerfs that affect the pve group). You essentially want to nerf our content because it's not fun for you.

The difference here versus RL is there is literally an endless supply of nightwood (respawn times aside) for those who will farm it themselves. Relying on a trade store is called convenience, and as with everything in life, that comes at a premium.

grom1024 · July 2016

I suggest compromise solution. Lets keep guild stores. And lets add AH. Those who like guild stores will use them, and those who like AH will use AH. We will see what is better in long run for users and in year or two only most popular solution will remain.

But I think that opponents of AH will never agree with such approach, because they will loose in such less restricted market. Some of them are making some money off extremely inconvenient guild store UI (the lack of search function is ridiculous especially when visiting other guild stores), so they would like this artificial barrier to be kept.

grom1024 · July 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

grom1024 wrote: »

What you are going to do with gold?

They don't have to do anything with the gold. It is a game just to collect it. Some people are spending tons of money on repairing CP 160 gear each week, but to others, it is just a game. ...

Adding AH will not make things too different for those who play trade game, they will have to adapt to new rules and the trade game will be somewhat more challenging. They will have to bring some value beyond moving goods around guild stores.

xericdx · July 2016

My 2 cents from an average player with limited time to play.

Am in a few good trading guilds and can find almost everything I need there. For very specific items I might have to look elsewhere but a quick tour of the major hubs is normally more than enough. In any case, this is rare.

I like the trading system and wouldn't substitute for a easy and shallow global AH. I like trading as a part of the gaming experience and, if anything, I would agree that improvements can be made for facilitating this (UI not the best).

As said, this is only my 2 cents. We will never be unanimous on this, as on any other aspect of this massive game.

Uriel_Nocturne · July 2016

grom1024 wrote: »

I suggest compromise solution. Lets keep guild stores. And lets add AH. Those who like guild stores will use them, and those who like AH will use AH. We will see what is better in long run for users and in year or two only most popular solution will remain.

But I think that opponents of AH will never agree with such approach, because they will loose in such less restricted market. Some of them are making some money off extremely inconvenient guild store UI (the lack of search function is ridiculous especially when visiting other guild stores), so they would like this artificial barrier to be kept.

And this post shows that you don't understand what actually happens in an AH scenario, nor do you understand the current Guild Trader Market, just like the OP doesn't bother to try to understand it.

Keeping Guild Traders and having an Auction House would only make it easier for players like myself to completely monopolize said AH.

A Scenario:
I could still sell my items in the Guild Traders, but with my already deep pool of funds, I could easily buy out whatever I choose in an AH, then resell it for vast profits in both the Guild Trader system as well as the AH.

Sure, you guys would have your hands-held system for finding what you want, but since I'm buying up all of it and reselling it at an absurd markup, you'd never be able to afford what I sell. But then, if you really want those items, you'd be forced to buy what I have at the price I listed, as there's no way you could get it anywhere else or in any other manner.

People are putting more of a certain item up for sale in an attempt to undercut me and break my hold on the market?
LMFAO!!! I just dip into my pool of millions of Gold, and simply out bid everyone else, then turn around and resell it and make my Gold back with a healthy profit.

End of Scenario

That's the big issue with a public Auction House in... pretty much every MMO that has or has had one. WoW, SWG, RIFT, LotRO, all of them have this issue with their AH's, and there's no solution the Dev's can introduce to stop it. Why? The very nature, the very core design of an AH allows this type of market monopoly.

It's this type of unavoidable monopolization that is preventing ZOS from implementing an AH in ESO. So for very good reasons, there will be no AH for this game.

Just because a few, fractional number of people cannot find what they want for a cheap price (when they could easily farm said items at a quite probable faster rate), does not mean that the Guild trader system is broken.

Zerok · July 2016

Makkir wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

Krym wrote: »

if that stretches your daily allowance maybe a game that doesn't require such a tremendous amount of time to play would be better suited.

No because I believe the game should cater to the needs of the majority. And I feel that, on this issue, my interests are aligned with those of the majority, especially when it comes to implementing antitrust laws within the game to prevent what Makkir is doing.

what prevents you from farming nightwood? Youll come back at me say you have better things to do, because you value the things you enjoy in game subtantially higher than what I and others enjoy. It's the same reason the pve crowd hates the pvp crowd (bc yhe latter cries for pvp nerfs that affect the pve group). You essentially want to nerf our content because its not fun fo you.

The difference here versus RL is there is literally an endless supply of nightwood (respawn times aside) for those who will farm it themselves. Relying on a trade store is called convienence, and as with everything in life, that comes at a premium.

The fact that some players with a huge capital can use their power to control the market to further increase their capital is what we call in the real world anti-competitive practices.

It is not fair for the majority, therefore antitrust laws have to be put in place to prevent this from happening.

You will probably respond something like "it's a game, who cares if there are anti-competitive practices?". Well, I care because grinding materials and over-paying for items is not fun. Yes, you're breaking my fun.

Makkir · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

Krym wrote: »

if that stretches your daily allowance maybe a game that doesn't require such a tremendous amount of time to play would be better suited.

No because I believe the game should cater to the needs of the majority. And I feel that, on this issue, my interests are aligned with those of the majority, especially when it comes to implementing antitrust laws within the game to prevent what Makkir is doing.

what prevents you from farming nightwood? Youll come back at me say you have better things to do, because you value the things you enjoy in game subtantially higher than what I and others enjoy. It's the same reason the pve crowd hates the pvp crowd (bc yhe latter cries for pvp nerfs that affect the pve group). You essentially want to nerf our content because its not fun fo you.

The difference here versus RL is there is literally an endless supply of nightwood (respawn times aside) for those who will farm it themselves. Relying on a trade store is called convienence, and as with everything in life, that comes at a premium.

The fact that some players with a huge capital can use their power to control the market to further increase their capital is what we call in the real world anti-competitive practices.

It is not fair for the majority, therefore antitrust laws have to be put in place to prevent this from happening.

You will probably respond something like "it's a game, who cares if there are anti-competitive practices?". Well, I care because grinding materials and over-paying for items is not fun. Yes, you're breaking my fun.

No I won't respond like that.

Here I will reword your bolded sentence for you, "The fact that some players with a lot of skill and good gear can use their power to control the VMA leaderboards to further increase their inventory of VMA weapons and BiS items is what we call the real world anti-competitive practices.

How is my being good at farming any different or of less value than your being good at something else (be it PvP, PvE, ec)?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to corner the nightwood market, because every single player has easy access to farm nightwood. it's not locked behind Orisinium DLC content, it's not locked behind a skill wall. Your argument is ridiculous.

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I list nightwood stacks at 5k because I KNOW the shortcut crowd (as I call them) will pay that premium instead of going to farm it themselves.

I mean, it's high school stuff...you can't corner a market really unless you can control the number of those items entering the market. I can't "prevent" other players from farming nightwood and undercutting me.

/lolz

Beardimus · July 2016

I guess this thread illustrates real world issues & politics we see every day, sadly. Some people make crafting their thing, put the effort into farming and sales / buy / sell etc, become good at that aspect of the game, and yet they are called names by those that want everyone to be equal and think its not fair. Despite that aspect being open To all to go do.

Being good at trade is no different to being good at PvP or good at PvE, its a skill and takes effort / focus on that side. Name calling is not required when all these folks are doing is excelling at that aspect of the game.

Anyway we are so far off topic. Bottom line is some people want an auction house, and some don't. Both have their reasons, and I feel those that want a auction house don't always listen to all the other ways of achieving what they want to do. They just want WoW in ESO.

Zerok · July 2016

Makkir wrote: »

How is my being good at farming any different or of less value than your being good at something else (be it PvP, PvE, ec)?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to corner the nightwood market, because every single player has easy access to farm nightwood. it's not locked behind Orisinium DLC content, it's not locked behind a skill wall. Your argument is ridiculous.

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I list nightwood stacks at 5k because I KNOW the shortcut crowd (as I call them) will pay that premium instead of going to farm it themselves.

I mean, it's high school stuff...you can't corner a market really unless you can control the number of those items entering the market. I can't "prevent" other players from farming nightwood and undercutting me.

That's not true and you know it perfectly well. I've seen the shortage of nightwood. Only a few guilds are selling those at outrageous prices, forcing players like me to lose my time grinding nightwood just to complete my daily crafting writs.

No it's impossible to control 100% of the market for specific crafting materials, but if you control a fair share of it, you'll have a huge influence on the equilibrium price.

Zerok · July 2016

Beardimus wrote: »

Anyway we are so far off topic. Bottom line is some people want an auction house, and some don't. Both have their reasons, and I feel those that want a auction house don't always listen to all the other ways of achieving what they want to do. They just want WoW in ESO.

Who cares about an auction house? I want antitrust laws implemented in the game in priority.

Makkir · July 2016

Beardimus wrote: »

I guess this thread illustrates real world issues & politics we see every day, sadly. Some people make crafting their thing, put the effort into farming and sales / buy / sell etc, become good at that aspect of the game, and yet they are called names by those that want everyone to be equal and think its not fair. Despite that aspect being open To all to go do.

This is my point. And I really am playing devil's advocate. I don't really enjoy farming for 90 minutes a night. My passion is 1vX PvP (link to my youtube in signature). But I do it because I have found a terrific way to earn gold.

Makkir · July 2016

As promised, here is a general run down of what I have set up to rake in 1mill+ a week
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2968604/#Comment_2968604

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3051936/#Comment_3051936

Makkir · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

That's not true and you know it perfectly well. I've seen the shortage of nightwood. Only a few guilds are selling those at outrageous prices, forcing players like me to lose my time grinding nightwood just to complete my daily crafting writs.

No it's impossible to control 100% of the market for specific crafting materials, but if you control a fair share of it, you'll have a huge influence on the equilibrium price.

Good. That means it is WORKING.

The problem with your argument, point of view, and lost focus is the line, "like me to lose my time grinding." LOSE YOUR TIME?!?! I apologize that your time is more valuable. I apologize if you don't place any value on the time players like me spend running in circles farming materials. I apologize if you don't want to spend time looking for items that you can flip for profit.

Lol, feel the Bern yet? Yeah that was pun. Ridiculous.

grom1024 · July 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

A Scenario:
I could still sell my items in the Guild Traders, but with my already deep pool of funds, I could easily buy out whatever I choose in an AH, then resell it for vast profits in both the Guild Trader system as well as the AH.

Sure, you guys would have your hands-held system for finding what you want, but since I'm buying up all of it and reselling it at an absurd markup, you'd never be able to afford what I sell. But then, if you really want those items, you'd be forced to buy what I have at the price I listed, as there's no way you could get it anywhere else or in any other manner.

People are putting more of a certain item up for sale in an attempt to undercut me and break my hold on the market?
LMFAO!!! I just dip into my pool of millions of Gold, and simply out bid everyone else, then turn around and resell it and make my Gold back with a healthy profit.

End of Scenario

There is nothing in guild stores, that I cannot get myself with grind. And there is nothing in guild stores that is game changing. It is just way to save time. Most interesting items are BoP anyway. So if you buy everything and put to sale, you have only 150 items sale capacity and some character/bank space. This limit your capacity to influence market. I will not come to your guild store, so you will not get any money from me. You will be sitting on the pile of goods spending money on maintaining sale positions. Good luck trying it. You might offer any price, but you could not force people to buy, if efforts of earning that amount of gold are higher than effort of grinding.

Also, note, you could buy anything from AH cheap only for some time. Prices will correct themselves, so the possible margin will be less and less for you. If you sell Ring of Agility for 200K, it will be soon 200K on AH too. Do think that people are idiots, they will see price rise, and rise own prices too. There will be some underpriced items on AH, but it will be rare event. You just will not be able to maintain monopoly for long time.

I have experience with AH in other other game, and prices there fall for everything that is not horrible-RNG-protected or real-money-protected. On average, it possible to get 10% income on crafted goods. When price falls low, people just stop to offer goods. Crafting components are priced according to difficulty to farm them. So economics just levels out.

Uriel_Nocturne · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

How is my being good at farming any different or of less value than your being good at something else (be it PvP, PvE, ec)?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to corner the nightwood market, because every single player has easy access to farm nightwood. it's not locked behind Orisinium DLC content, it's not locked behind a skill wall. Your argument is ridiculous.

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I list nightwood stacks at 5k because I KNOW the shortcut crowd (as I call them) will pay that premium instead of going to farm it themselves.

I mean, it's high school stuff...you can't corner a market really unless you can control the number of those items entering the market. I can't "prevent" other players from farming nightwood and undercutting me.

That's not true and you know it perfectly well. I've seen the shortage of nightwood. Only a few guilds are selling those at outrageous prices, forcing players like me to lose my time grinding nightwood just to complete my daily crafting writs.

No it's impossible to control 100% of the market for specific crafting materials, but if you control a fair share of it, you'll have a huge influence on the equilibrium price.

But there's the fallacy in your argument.

There is no shortage of Nightwood.

There might not be much up for sale at any given vendor, but since there is an endless supply of Nightwood in the game at respawn points, there is really no shortage of Nightwood, nor will there ever be.

Just because a person cannot take a shortcut and buy a stack of 200 Nightwood for 5k, doesn't mean that a player is engaging in "anti-trust" schemes. If the Trader stalls you have access to don't have any Nightwood, there's nothing in the game preventing that same player from going out and chopping through Nightwood logs and getting all the Nightwood they want for free.

The Guild Traders are nothing more than a shortcut system for people who don't want to take the time to farm it themselves. But for the convenience of not having to farm it yourself, there is a cost. The cost? Whatever that seller believes that the stack of Nightwood is worth.

So no, there is no need for "anti-trust" mechanics to be introduced. That would be absurd. If it isn't available at a Trader, or if it's listed at a price you don't agree with, then don't buy it. Just go farm it yourself and get all the Nightwood you want for free.

Elsonso · July 2016

Zerok wrote: »

especially when it comes to implementing antitrust laws within the game to prevent what Makkir is doing.

I want to just mention that Guild Traders work in your favor on this front.

It is harder for Makkir and his "friends" to collect all the Nightwood so that it can be sold at 5K per stack because it is necessary to run from trader to trader. That takes time. It is hard for a GUILD to own the entire market for an item, and impossible for a PLAYER to do it, just due to the manpower and time requirements. The average player has a chance to get Nightwood before Makkir comes along and buys it.

In an auction house, this is all too easy and one player can watch for and buy items across the entire server. This means that they can potentially pull stuff off the auction house within seconds of it being listed. The average player who is looking for a good price on Nightwood does not even see that listing.

grom1024 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

grom1024 wrote: »

What you are going to do with gold?

They don't have to do anything with the gold. It is a game just to collect it. Some people are spending tons of money on repairing CP 160 gear each week, but to others, it is just a game. ...

Adding AH will not make things too different for those who play trade game, they will have to adapt to new rules and the trade game will be somewhat more challenging. They will have to bring some value beyond moving goods around guild stores.

People are not just moving stuff between guild stores. Trade syndication in the game is already a lot more challenging, and expensive, than it would be in an auction house game. Auction houses are "easy mode", if you are into that sort of thing.

Guild traders are the way the game is. There is no auction house. ZOS has actually said, in public, that they are not interested in doing an auction house. I agree with this and consider this among the best decisions they have ever made. I was onboard with the system the instant I heard about it. It roots the store in the game world. It helps protect against people trying to own the markets by making it so that average players have a chance to get stuff before the "cartels" buy stuff. It limits the scope of any single guild, or syndicate, and makes it harder for any player, or group of players, to set prices. It prevents players from easily knowing the entire market without using outside tools that share information between players (ie: The Undermine Journal over at WoW). It is a wonderful gold sink to remove gold from the economy.

You could side with the game designers and adapt to the current rules, and suggest improvements to that system, if you wanted to participate in the game economy. In this way, we can address the three big problems that I see.

1. The User Interface/search capabilities of the guild store
2. The need to find a guild that has a trader, namely an in-game Looking For Guild function that gives that information.
3. The inability for a guild to be able to have access to a trader due to a shortage of traders.

Beardimus · July 2016

Well articulated @lordrichter have an awesome

Uriel_Nocturne · July 2016

grom1024 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

A Scenario:
I could still sell my items in the Guild Traders, but with my already deep pool of funds, I could easily buy out whatever I choose in an AH, then resell it for vast profits in both the Guild Trader system as well as the AH.

Sure, you guys would have your hands-held system for finding what you want, but since I'm buying up all of it and reselling it at an absurd markup, you'd never be able to afford what I sell. But then, if you really want those items, you'd be forced to buy what I have at the price I listed, as there's no way you could get it anywhere else or in any other manner.

People are putting more of a certain item up for sale in an attempt to undercut me and break my hold on the market?
LMFAO!!! I just dip into my pool of millions of Gold, and simply out bid everyone else, then turn around and resell it and make my Gold back with a healthy profit.

End of Scenario

There is nothing in guild stores, that I cannot get myself with grind. And there is nothing in guild stores that is game changing. It is just way to save time. Most interesting items are BoP anyway. So if you buy everything and put to sale, you have only 150 items sale capacity and some character/bank space. This limit your capacity to influence market. I will not come to your guild store, so you will not get any money from me. You will be sitting on the pile of goods spending money on maintaining sale positions. Good luck trying it. You might offer any price, but you could not force people to buy, if efforts of earning that amount of gold are higher than effort of grinding.

Also, note, you could buy anything from AH cheap only for some time. Prices will correct themselves, so the possible margin will be less and less for you. If you sell Ring of Agility for 200K, it will be soon 200K on AH too. Do think that people are idiots, they will see price rise, and rise own prices too. There will be some underpriced items on AH, but it will be rare event. You just will not be able to maintain monopoly for long time.

I have experience with AH in other other game, and prices there fall for everything that is not horrible-RNG-protected or real-money-protected. On average, it possible to get 10% income on crafted goods. When price falls low, people just stop to offer goods. Crafting components are priced according to difficulty to farm them. So economics just levels out.

Sure, and I also posted that Guild Traders are more of a shortcut for the game than they are a necessity in terms of grinding out crafting mats.

But what you're missing in cutting out text from my original post is this; you're focusing on the individual.

Yes, I can only buy up a maximum of 150 *whatever item* and sell it. But then imagine an entire Guild of 500 members who want to monopolize the *new* AH feature. Then get many Guilds doing that as well.

There would be Guild consortiums forming all over, and yes, they could easily monopolize the markets. It's happened before. WoW, SWG, etc., etc.

kylewwefan · July 2016

I agree with any thread that promotes much needed changes needed to the current system.

Zerok · July 2016

So much bad faith in this thread. I guess this should be expected because my proposal threatens the market position of the exploiters.

However, I don't like the tone of certain people in this thread, therefore this will be my last post.

Anyway, I believe this thread will be closed soon because of the said people.

grom1024 · July 2016

Beardimus wrote: »

Anyway we are so far off topic. Bottom line is some people want an auction house, and some don't. Both have their reasons, and I feel those that want a auction house don't always listen to all the other ways of achieving what they want to do. They just want WoW in ESO.

I just see these other ways of achieving what I want to do as horrible user experience. There is multiple intermediates between buyer and seller that requires spending extra time and extra clicks. I would rather go into dungeon rather than spending hour on searching traders for iron ingots with acceptable price.

frownsyndromes · July 2016

WE NEED THE GRAND EXCHANGE (no bust seriously easiest solution ever)

AlnilamE · July 2016

Runefang wrote: »

Interesting how only the sellers point of view is represented by those against an alternative to the current system. Buyers can't help but benefit from a change.

Actually, I enjoy the system we have as a buyer more than as a seller. I like keeping a mental list of "to buy" stuff and just checking guild traders for it as I go about my day.

I also enjoy going on a shopping spree every once in a while when I get an idea. Like the other day when I wanted to make a "thieving set" and I ended up running around finding low level Night Mother's Embrace pieces to supplement the CP 160 jewelry I had.

Though I'm also happy when my small social guild is able to secure a trader for the week, as many of us enjoy putting our overstock for sale.

That said, console players would definitely benefit from an improved UI (something similar to the AwesomeGuildStore addon on PC) as well as text chat (which I believe is coming, right?) because on PC, there is always a lot of buying and selling going on in zone.

But IMO, Auction Houses are boring and you never find the stuff you *really* need. Or it's way out of your price range.

Makkir · July 2016

@lordrichter has a better way, sometimes, of articulating points than I do. The only issue in game right now with the current system is the UI. There are some life quality adjustments that should be made as Lordrichter pointed out.