Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Zheg · July 2016

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I can see your point @FENGRUSH

Your right Maulbeth + Reactive/Kags is a problem as well, but if they actually fix Malabeth you would find these Beam Templars would be far easier to kill then they are right now.

In the end i'd rather they fix the bugged Maulabeth set first, and then see how things play it. I got a feeling those Beam plars become significantly easier to kill when they don;t have these bugged sets propping them up, which is fair trade on the hard hitting but squishy balance.

In the end though, its really sad that such unbalanced sets like Malabeth have bene allowed to be broken for so long. I have seen it bug for some pretty ridiculous heals and that combined with Beam plars is a bit unbalanced, i'll give you that.

Easier, yes. Not easy though. Comparatively speaking still amongst the hardest to kill while providing great support and utility. I like their kit, it's balanced well on all fronts. Their sustain:effectiveness is an issue. Less their heals and more their ability to be a force to so many near or below 50% in such a short time while investing so little in it. Tanky dk, sorc, nb.. will not provide that level of threat and cant. The way this execute functions is different, and that's fine.. but players need time to react. If you can't give some time on the front end, Zos will end up destroying the skills numbers on raw damage.

Best to get on board with a reasonable outlook or the skill gets RIPd.

FFS. Sorc nb and dk even when tanky can still put pressure on people. All of haxus dps play tanky and can put pressure, most of them DK. Those classes may not often pressure YOUR build, but they can pressure other builds. Jesus beam is something i shrug off on my build, things that youd shrug off on yours pressure mine. Why is it so impossible for people to look beyond their own specific vulnerability when evaluating how OP something is?

Malubeth is not just a templar issue, in fact every stam build has just as much healing and can do just as much damage - just a different kind of damage. A skill should never be nerfed because a set is too strong.

Full of ***. Shrug off fighting someone while this is being spammed on you. Show a video. Your talk is cheap, as is anyones. A legitimate threat, not 2 potatos. Hell even a potato templar and a decent someone else.

Truth is, you cant do it. The second you get cced with dizzying swing or a CF connect your dead. during break free.

I fight all the time in the middle of big battles. I could be fighting someone and then have 2 jesus beams on me, unless I was already low on hp I can usually handle that without issue. Most of the decent templars I fight against in cyrodiil handle that same exact situation just fine. Templars have purify, burst heal, and some run shields. I can absolutely shrug off the jesus beam better than other builds can. Unless you're grossly outnumbered it's a great way to get resources back with harness magicka.

I'd also point out that you say 'no potatoes' well... almost everyone is complaining about the capacity for a potato to jesus beam them while they're outnumbered and ruining their fight. They are fighting potatoes.

Vaaaahhhiiiiiddddeeeeooooo

Taaalky taaaalky nooooo guuuud

Ssshooooowww

Mmeeee thiiinnksss yoooou duuuunnnoooo

Show everyone your leet ninja templar ways.

And not sure if you knew this but with 75% reduction, on top of normal midigation, it hits for 5-6k thru mistform. Thats hitting for 22k+ <30% health. Unless its just broke, which wouldnt suprise me.

Not trashin ya bro. Just dont think its possibe with rd in its current state.

I don't record fights because I personally think it's tacky to 'show off' with highlight reels of you killing pugs, and because I can barely survive the lag without recording. If you've never seen a templar fend off jesus beams in 1vX fights then you aren't playing in Cyrodiil all that often. Collectively we could probably put together a list of any number of templars that would be able to accommodate you.

As an aside, I think you have a speech impediment, you may want to seek help.

Vangy · July 2016

? Why compare snipe to RD?

I have a magplar and 5 people spamming snipe doesnt really do anything. Unless Im sleeping at my table or if those snipers all miraculously launch their snipe at the exact same split second and I have no sound, im just going to doge roll x 2 and get behind LOS. 5 templars spamming JB with u at full health = u dead. Blocking wont work cos each tick is counted as 1 block. And block cost is charged every 0.5s. You gona be at 0 spam much much faster than dodge rolling a few times lol. And the best kicker is RD cant be dodge rolled lol?

How does 5 nooblets spamming snipe compare to 5 nooblets spamming RD? 5 snipes countered by 1 single dodge roll lol. Any well build mag toon should have enuf stam to atleast cast dodge roll a few times with proper CP allocation. Stam toons are completely rekt by a few j-beam spammers lol. Cos there is 0 counter play. Blocking is punished by ZOS unless ur a perma block tank and doge roll dosent work with RD. And gl trying to interrupt 5 templars spamming J-beam before u die lol.

blabafat · July 2016

@Joy_Division does his homework

KenaPKK · July 2016

@Zheg

I put myself in your build's shoes. In fact, in all of these threads and even in my very last post to you, I systematically put myself in every possible build's shoes in my analysis of radiant. It's right there in your quote.

You say "well your build deals with snipe and has a hard time with radiant; it's the opposite for mine, so balanced."

No, I said that my build struggles with snipe objectively more than your build. I do not have the luxury of mist form mobility, making me less mobile than your magplar. I do not have the luxury of a purify. I do not have the luxury of a burst heal. I cannot use snb and expect to kill anything, unlike you, so thus I cannot block as much either.

And yet I do not struggle with snipe, or arrow, or crushing shock, or frag, or any other ranged ability spam NOT because my build or class inherently counters them or has a mechanism to deal with them -- because they DON'T -- but because I utilize windows of counterplay in the overarching mechanics as well as superior gameplay to avoid them. Read that sentence again because it went right over your head the last time.

My build copes with ranged ability spam of ALL kinds worse than ALL viable pvp builds except for 2h/bow stam sorc (rip), and yet NO ranged ability spam gives me any notable trouble except for radiant.

This is because ALL OTHER ranged abilities, when spammed down on a fight from a distance, have inherently more opportunities for counterplay than radiant. PERIOD. I have demonstrated this in my last post. Since you seem to be spinning your wheels, I'll give you a little direction. You are in a position where you must either refute or justify radiant's higher power budget yet lower inherent counterplay than pretty much every other ranged damage skill in the game. If you cannot do so or do not want to, then you are done here.

That is not a matter of my build or your build. That is a matter of access to counterplay across ALL builds. LoS is broken with radiant, it can't be dodged, and blocking it doesn't work because it's a channel and you'll just drain stam while standing still until you die.

I'm trying so hard to remain civil, but you're sitting in a bubble......and telling me I'm the one in a bubble......when I clearly demonstrated step by step how all builds EVER can cope with this skill. Go play magicka DK or stam sorc solo in open world for a week, and tell me how you feel about radiant at the end.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Darnathian wrote: »

If we are nerfing ranges then also put minimum distances on "gap closers". Stop the spambush

Go for it, although it won't change anything.

Advocate removing the little root snare thing from gap closers. Advocate to correct the root of the problem, not the source of your emotions.

FYI, gap closers can still be spammed with the minimum range, and it's that little root thing that's slowing you down and getting you killed, not the gap closer damage itself.

KenaPKK · July 2016

blabafat wrote: »

@Joy_Division does his homework

@Joy_Division missed the point completely. You said in Legend guild chat at duels back when I was officer that you didn't know why magplar had buffs coming with Thieves Guild and that you thought it was balanced before those buffs.

Joy is twisting it to suggest that I said you want RD to be dodgeable now. Idk how that jump in logic is made, and idk why quoting the opinion of an expert at a class is so taboo.

Also I'll warn you against associating the length of a presentation with its accuracy or trustworthiness.

blabafat · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

@Joy_Division does his homework

@Joy_Division missed the point completely. You said in Legend guild chat at duels back when I was officer that you didn't know why magplar had buffs coming with Thieves Guild and that you thought it was balanced before those buffs.

Joy is twisting it to suggest that I said you want RD to be dodgeable now. Idk how that jump in logic is made, and idk why quoting the opinion of an expert at a class is so taboo.

Also I'll warn you against associating the length of a presentation with its accuracy or trustworthiness.

Ah I didn't read a lot of the posts on here. I just found it interesting that he went back to a lot of my comments, that's all.

juhasman · July 2016

@Zheg Seriously? Why You still comparing RD to other skills that ARE NOT EXECUTES. RD is an execute and execute should not put so much pressure on enemie when he's below 50% of HP and even before because he know if he'll go under half HP he's dead. How can You not see that skill which is not dodgable have huge range and starts EXECUTING enemie when he have half oh hp is broken? HAving half health for You is fine to be called low hp? Hell yeah give sorcerer endless fury starting to do explosions when enemie is under 50% and we'll see will You be fine with that. Lets give executioner 15 meters range atleast and we'll see will You be fine with that. Let's give Impale bonus dmg starting on 50% and we'll see will You be fine with that. And still all that skill would be dodgable so radiant would still have adventage at some point. Are You fine wth that?

Joy_Division · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Joy_Division you should try direct quotes if you're going to keep at me. My forum name is not "Kena." You wrote those "quotes" of what I "said" yourself. Heck, some quotes didn't even have a name written in. 0.o

Fair enough.

KenaPKK wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason death should be guaranteed in an outnumbered scenario, so stop using that as an argument.

I never said that death should be guaranteed in an outnumbered scenario.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

I don't even run a shield on my healer. 28-30k hp, a purge slotted, and most of the time that's all it takes to react to a jesus beam. Heal up after, unless they used it at high health in which case you can laugh at them, and then laugh at all of the people on the forums pretending like it's a problem.

The people complaining want to run around in a glass cannon or bare-bones hp build for 1vXing, and/or rely on dodge as their only defense. They don't want to build tankier, they don't want to sacrifice a skill on their bar as a counter. As was said earlier, stam will have bone shield on top of everything else, and they still want jesus beam nerfed. This is one of the few times I'm glad wrobel isn't listening.

Minno wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Yup thats my argument too. I've said it before, health and defense now play a better role in this game than before. If you want to ignore it, that's fine. But don't base nerf calls on the fact you went full weapon dmg/resource and expect to run into a zerg head-on.

I run a 29k health mageblade with all impen and heavy self-heals.

The problem is not durability. The problem is that a templar can sit well outside of my range of reaction, push one button at me while I am at full health, and make it so that if I fall below 40% health, I die. In its current state, a Radiant held on a person at high health while they take fire from other players is practically a 40% max health debuff because if they reach 40% health, they get chunked by the execute crits without the ability to block or dodge the hits. RD is the only skill in the game that behaves this way.

You have cloak. Seriously, stop exaggerating. I've never seen a nb complain about an opponent being out of range for them to react to. Are you worried the magplar is going to caltrops you?

The Xv1 arguments are also moronic. If a sorc casts mages fury/wrath while a group pummels you, all the while being able to frags/crushing shock you because they aren't locked in a channel, does that result in a situation where you miraculously live? Please.

And the sorc casting Wrath on you in an outnumbered situation is next to no pressure, even with their other incoming damage. RD applies greater damage and can't be dodged or blocked, and at just as far range.

RD can be blocked. Also, why isn't the sorcerer using curse, inevitable det, frags, etc., applying pressure against an outnumbered target?

****
I can't quote this because the thread was locked, but here is the link to your post when KenaPKK said "It [The Templar] was competitive last patch before the latest buffs. Even templars were saying to just leave the class alone."

I'm not disputing that you can hold the opinion the templar were competitive in the patch before the TG. But saying that templars were saying to leave the class alone is unsustainable when during the PTS process, templars made the longest thread probably ever on these forums telling ZoS that the class needed major reforms and expressed their dissatisfaction about not getting them.

*****

If you think RD ought not to be blockable, then why would you say this? (again in the thread that was locked): "he [Blab] said magplar was perfectly balanced last patch and that the TG buffs were unnecessary."

How am I or anyone else not supposed to take "perfectly balanced" to mean that the RD, which was dodgeable, was balanced - especially when you also claim the the buffs the class received (RD defeat dodge obviously being the major one) were "unnecessary"? Blab very clearly did NOT think the class was "perfectly balanced" because he posted numerous times specifically citing RD as being "very weak" and his initial reaction to those buffs you claim he deemed unnecessary was "amazing."

I know Blab felt overall the templar was the most balanced of the classes, but that is not the same thing - especially since he felt RD, which is what these threads are all about, needed a buff. Yes, he feels it is out of control now. But that doesn't mean he felt templars were "perfectly balanced" before.

I totally respect Blab's opinions on templars and share just about all of them. I know because I pay attention to what he says because he is a templar I try to emulate and, importantly, at what time he says them. You don't need to remind him of what he said in Legend guild chat.

********

So because I take umbrage to you claiming that I think death guaranteed in an outnumbered scenario, I am akin to a "drug addict" looking for a fix? Because I call you out on the false claim that templars were happy with the class before the thieve's guild, I have "no credibility"?

Look, I understand I have been no angel and given you ample reason to be defensive and not like me. I know that you are passionate about the game and feel very strongly about this issue. But just because I point out that you say things that are not true does not mean

That I do not think your overall premise merits consideration
That your behavior is akin to a junkie
That I think RD is balanced and not in need of reform

I look at ZoS consistent history of eviscerating stuff when they nerf them so I find it very important that RD is not misrepresented. That is my motivation. Not because I think the skill is balanced. Rather ZoS will absolutely obliterate it with the nerf hammer if specious death recaps showing 3 seconds of RD damage is compared with instant-cast skills and untruths that it can't be blocked are perpetuated without correction. That's the extent of my agenda. I don't think this should be too difficult to understand.

I will admit I have not made it easy for you (or others for that matter) to grasp that. I have been too aggressive, too snide, too defensive, not given people not enough reason to appreciate I'm just trying to deflect the ZoS nerfhammer, and not treated you with the sort of respect that I keep asking you to treat me. OK, why don't we stop treating each other like ****?

******My thoughts on RD*******

I do think templars are way too strong offensively (and said so when the TG PTS patch notes came out) and that in combination with that reality that templars can too easily avoid the disadvantages that accompany RD, the skill needs reform. In a vacuum the skill is fine. But right now Cyrodiil is not a vacuum.

I do not think lowering the range will end these threads. Yes it is a nerf to the skill, and a notable one as 16 meters is significant, but this too me sounds like another in the long line of 'just do this to RD and it's will be fine" arguments that have been on these forums since 1.6 released.

First it was make it cleansible. ZoS did. People still complained about the skill.
Then it was nerf the damage. ZoS did. Several times. People still complained about the skill.
Then it was make it LOSable. ZoS did. People still complained about the skill.

If the range is lowered, it does put more of an onus on the templar to use RD more "skillfully," however the actual mechanics of RD are not being changed and will still kill players in precisely the sort of scenarios they complain most about: being in a outnumbered situation where a RDing templar can beam away without much worry of consequence. As much as people who hate the ability dub it "skillless," those who know who to use it effectively will still rack up many kills with it. Most of the people I kill with RD in the open field are already within their charge range so their death recaps are not going to change very much.

It is possible, I suppose, that those who die from RD will accept it since it was done in a "skillfull" manner and not post those same death recaps on these forums. We'll see.

I personally think these ideas trying to get the templar to more "skillfully" use RD is not the best way to approach RD for two reasons.

A templar will still find it easy to avoid the drawbacks of the channel against outnumbered players (and thus still get the skills many advantages for little risk).
People already acknolegde RD is a limited skill in 1v1 or comeptitive situations and these sorts of ideas are exacerbating this problem.

In short, it's harder to use this skill when it matters, but it still has an "easy" mode potential.

What I would do instead is concentrate on the many advantages the skill has and limit them so even in zerg situations where the templar is avoiding the channel's drawbacks, she doesn't automatically always get the benefits. The most obvious solution would be to force templars to choose between having an execute or having the "moderate" damage portion.

The basic formula I would use is to keep the Radiant Destruction morph and the execute scaling, but make it do "low" damage otherwise. I would make Radiant glory always do "moderate damage" (actually a little higher because it's DPS is not competitive) and add some sort of buff to the templar or debuff to the opponent. With such morphs, the skill would always be use "as intended" which is what people seem to want.

there are other means of limiting RD's advantages, but I think they can become pretty complicated pretty fast.

frozywozy · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dealing with 1 or 2 beams is fine, nothing that bad about it really.

But having someone beam you in the back while you're trying to take on 1 or 2 people and having that person just spam beam on you is just absolutely pathetic. That is the main point of this thread, and I've done this to see what it's like, I know it's pathetic

What's pathetic is you even making this out to be a thing. There are plenty of skills that would take you out while you are fighting 1-2 people. That's the point. You die in pvp when you are outnumbered and/or when someone is sniping you from range. What a terrible argument!

But are those skills also executes? Because that's the main problem of Radiant. It's execute ability and kills people more effective then other spammable non execute ones.

I'd like to see some of the other Templar killing blows sheet.

This is from barely 2weeks of PVP as a tank full time healer (no cps spent in damage).

Hey, I know, let's find a way to use misleading anecdotal evidence because Zheg making the same point 5 different ways is too difficult to address because he's right. Well, here's mine, and since I have far more balanced ratios, well ... whatever happened to being zergling jesus beam spammers? I have failed my legacy. It's almost like ... I use other skills in appropriate ratios. It's almost like, I can and do use things other than jesus beam and might actually be looking at the skill and balance overall objectively, go figure.

Also, I'm going to call absolute BS on you being a "full-time healer" and getting near 900 KBs with jesus beam in 2 weeks, hint hint - you aren't a healer if you're focusing on killing that much.

When I mean that I'm a tank full time healer, it means that I have 100 points in blessed and 20 points in Quick Recovery and no points in Elemental Expert or Thaumaturge. I obviously focus on killing people having nearly 900 kills with Radiant Destruction. There is even a picture to demonstrate it. The point I was making is that I haven't even needed to spec as a dps to get 900 kills in 2weeks with Radiant Destruction. This being said, Buff Magplar.

maxjapank wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dealing with 1 or 2 beams is fine, nothing that bad about it really.

But having someone beam you in the back while you're trying to take on 1 or 2 people and having that person just spam beam on you is just absolutely pathetic. That is the main point of this thread, and I've done this to see what it's like, I know it's pathetic

What's pathetic is you even making this out to be a thing. There are plenty of skills that would take you out while you are fighting 1-2 people. That's the point. You die in pvp when you are outnumbered and/or when someone is sniping you from range. What a terrible argument!

But are those skills also executes? Because that's the main problem of Radiant. It's execute ability and kills people more effective then other spammable non execute ones.

I'd like to see some of the other Templar killing blows sheet.

This is from barely 2weeks of PVP as a tank full time healer (no cps spent in damage).

That doesn't mean a thing. It's an execution spell. I'm sure if you posted from other class, it would have other spells very high on the kill list. The main thing is that your picture doesn't show what's going on in the fight. I'm sure there are other spells damaging the target. So even though Radiant got the killing blow, it wasn't the only spell used.

The guy asked for other people to link their KC stats which I did. Nothing more, nothing less.

If there was, you'd be able to refute my one counterpoint that everyone avoids.

What on earth is this one counterpoint that we're "avoiding?" You've mentioned it a couple times since this debate ended, but I must have missed it.

You've yet to directly respond to my argument of the hole in RD's counterplay or my summary post of the thread, so I was just assuming you were twisting another story around. Do you actually have a direct point related to the skill to make, or is it another pointed at us personally?

@KenaPKK I'll repeat again.

The majority of people calling for nerfs to jesus beam say the skill is fine in 1v1 and small scale fights, but needs to be nerfed for situations where you are outnumbered. They argue that when outnumbered they cannot counter-play jesus beam as well as needed and they cannot stay alive easily. That is the premise for all of these nerf threads as I've seen it.

So, why does that premise require jesus beam to be nerfed when if you put a magplar in that same outnumbered situation but replace the jesus beamers with snipers, they face the same exact problems you complain about? A magplar can handle jesus beam when outnumbered, they are the absolute best equipped to do so. They struggle against snipe perhaps more than any other build because of the heal debuff, physical damage, and poison procs. The only counter play to snipe for a magplar is to dodge or interrupt the caster (you can block, but as you know well kena, if you block a single snipe in an outnumbered situation on a magicka build you will quickly run into stam issues from all of the incoming attacks eating up your stam). They cannot dodge more than a stamplar can purify and only slightly more often than a stam build can purge. They can interrupt the caster, but they would have to wear a destro staff and slot crushing shock and target the snipers within the 1 second cast time - something you yourself have argued is not viable for stam builds to equip a bow, slot poison arrow, and target the templars. All of the lack of counterplay you complain about for jesus beam is just as present in an outnumbered situation for a magplar facing multiple people sniping them.

As I said in previous posts, this is not a 'nerf snipe' plea, you can replace the situation with any skill that becomes a threat to a particular build in an outnumbered situation but is easy to address in 1v1 or small scale. The pressure for that magplar is almost the same, the lack of counterplay is almost the same, the likelihood of death is almost the same. With that said, how can you call for jesus beam to be nerfed but not every other skill that would function like snipe in reversed situations? How can you call for skills to be nerfed based solely on outnumbered situations when as the snipe example demonstrates there are any number of skills that fall into the same threat levels as you claim jesus beam does when outnumbered?

This is not about balancing the skill to be able to survive against an outnumbered situation. It's about balancing the skill to give a chance to melee classes. A melee character is always in the front line and is exposed alot more to all incoming attacks than a ranged character. Nobody can argue with that. This being said, any melee class charging into the front line will get focus by a ton of Radiant Destruction and all it takes usually to get him passed 50% is one CC and by the time you CC break, you're already in danger or dying.

Again, it's not about balancing the skill to be able to survive in a 1vX situation to make good videos about it. It's about giving a chance to melee classes to have fun in this broken meta.

Lokey0024 · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I can see your point @FENGRUSH

Your right Maulbeth + Reactive/Kags is a problem as well, but if they actually fix Malabeth you would find these Beam Templars would be far easier to kill then they are right now.

In the end i'd rather they fix the bugged Maulabeth set first, and then see how things play it. I got a feeling those Beam plars become significantly easier to kill when they don;t have these bugged sets propping them up, which is fair trade on the hard hitting but squishy balance.

In the end though, its really sad that such unbalanced sets like Malabeth have bene allowed to be broken for so long. I have seen it bug for some pretty ridiculous heals and that combined with Beam plars is a bit unbalanced, i'll give you that.

Easier, yes. Not easy though. Comparatively speaking still amongst the hardest to kill while providing great support and utility. I like their kit, it's balanced well on all fronts. Their sustain:effectiveness is an issue. Less their heals and more their ability to be a force to so many near or below 50% in such a short time while investing so little in it. Tanky dk, sorc, nb.. will not provide that level of threat and cant. The way this execute functions is different, and that's fine.. but players need time to react. If you can't give some time on the front end, Zos will end up destroying the skills numbers on raw damage.

Best to get on board with a reasonable outlook or the skill gets RIPd.

FFS. Sorc nb and dk even when tanky can still put pressure on people. All of haxus dps play tanky and can put pressure, most of them DK. Those classes may not often pressure YOUR build, but they can pressure other builds. Jesus beam is something i shrug off on my build, things that youd shrug off on yours pressure mine. Why is it so impossible for people to look beyond their own specific vulnerability when evaluating how OP something is?

Malubeth is not just a templar issue, in fact every stam build has just as much healing and can do just as much damage - just a different kind of damage. A skill should never be nerfed because a set is too strong.

Full of ***. Shrug off fighting someone while this is being spammed on you. Show a video. Your talk is cheap, as is anyones. A legitimate threat, not 2 potatos. Hell even a potato templar and a decent someone else.

Truth is, you cant do it. The second you get cced with dizzying swing or a CF connect your dead. during break free.

I fight all the time in the middle of big battles. I could be fighting someone and then have 2 jesus beams on me, unless I was already low on hp I can usually handle that without issue. Most of the decent templars I fight against in cyrodiil handle that same exact situation just fine. Templars have purify, burst heal, and some run shields. I can absolutely shrug off the jesus beam better than other builds can. Unless you're grossly outnumbered it's a great way to get resources back with harness magicka.

I'd also point out that you say 'no potatoes' well... almost everyone is complaining about the capacity for a potato to jesus beam them while they're outnumbered and ruining their fight. They are fighting potatoes.

Vaaaahhhiiiiiddddeeeeooooo

Taaalky taaaalky nooooo guuuud

Ssshooooowww

Mmeeee thiiinnksss yoooou duuuunnnoooo

Show everyone your leet ninja templar ways.

And not sure if you knew this but with 75% reduction, on top of normal midigation, it hits for 5-6k thru mistform. Thats hitting for 22k+ <30% health. Unless its just broke, which wouldnt suprise me.

Not trashin ya bro. Just dont think its possibe with rd in its current state.

I don't record fights because I personally think it's tacky to 'show off' with highlight reels of you killing pugs, and because I can barely survive the lag without recording. If you've never seen a templar fend off jesus beams in 1vX fights then you aren't playing in Cyrodiil all that often. Collectively we could probably put together a list of any number of templars that would be able to accommodate you.

As an aside, I think you have a speech impediment, you may want to seek help.

Na bro run solo mainly. Zerg serf too.

Can tell you if your tucked safely in the far back spamming heals and RD yourself you might not, and you obviously dont, see this as a problem.

Soris · July 2016

Again, we dont need more damage. What we need is buff for our underwhelming and outdated abilities, so remove beam and buff our utility skills instead for trade off. Primarily Blazing Shield, Radiant Aura, Eclipse, Solar Barrage and Healing Ritual. Also BRING BACK BLINDING FLASHES!

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg

I put myself in your build's shoes. In fact, in all of these threads and even in my very last post to you, I systematically put myself in every possible build's shoes in my analysis of radiant. It's right there in your quote.

You say "well your build deals with snipe and has a hard time with radiant; it's the opposite for mine, so balanced."

No, I said that my build struggles with snipe objectively more than your build. I do not have the luxury of mist form mobility, making me less mobile than your magplar. I do not have the luxury of a purify. I do not have the luxury of a burst heal. I cannot use snb and expect to kill anything, unlike you, so thus I cannot block as much either.

And yet I do not struggle with snipe, or arrow, or crushing shock, or frag, or any other ranged ability spam NOT because my build or class inherently counters them or has a mechanism to deal with them -- because they DON'T -- but because I utilize windows of counterplay in the overarching mechanics as well as superior gameplay to avoid them. Read that sentence again because it went right over your head the last time.

My build copes with ranged ability spam of ALL kinds worse than ALL viable pvp builds except for 2h/bow stam sorc (rip), and yet NO ranged ability spam gives me any notable trouble except for radiant.

This is because ALL OTHER ranged abilities, when spammed down on a fight from a distance, have inherently more opportunities for counterplay than radiant. PERIOD. I have demonstrated this in my last post. Since you seem to be spinning your wheels, I'll give you a little direction. You are in a position where you must either refute or justify radiant's higher power budget yet lower inherent counterplay than pretty much every other ranged damage skill in the game. If you cannot do so or do not want to, then you are done here.

That is not a matter of my build or your build. That is a matter of access to counterplay across ALL builds. LoS is broken with radiant, it can't be dodged, and blocking it doesn't work because it's a channel and you'll just drain stam while standing still until you die.

I'm trying so hard to remain civil, but you're sitting in a bubble......and telling me I'm the one in a bubble......when I clearly demonstrated step by step how all builds EVER can cope with this skill. Go play magicka DK or stam sorc solo in open world for a week, and tell me how you feel about radiant at the end.

@KenaPKK The fact that LoS is not working as well as it should does NOT mean that skill X should be nerfed. You do not nerf a skill because a bug exists for something else. You fix the bug, you lobby for ZOS to prioritize it. Should SA have been nerfed when camo hunter was bugged and people could oneshot with a stealthed heavy attack into SA? You would have felt strongly the answer is no, so do not move the goal posts for jesus beam because you dislike the skill or because it's not your class.

You're still going into specifically what your build does well or struggles against. I'm not suggesting that snipe is more dangerous to some magplar builds than jesus beam, I'm saying it's a fact. People may disagree because they're thinking about their own builds, but if you are NOT running the 5 heavy malubeth cheese (which is likely to get nerfed) then you rely on harness and heals for active defense and from personal experience I can assure you that jesus beam is less of a struggle on those builds - joy has alluded to this as well, as can most of my templar friends. There were times when I'd be sieging an outer wall up front and I'd joke in TS about how I'm going to die because there were multiple jesus beams on me while I was being ranged down by others (hint, I didn't actually die, I just kept my shields and purify up and healed when needed). Those are the situations where everyone is complaining about jesus beam, if I can do fine where there's a random smattering of potatoes coming down to melee me, counter siege, bowtards firing, jesus beams spammed at full health ... then that reinforces that there are indeed builds where jesus beam is less of a threat than other ranged skills. You want to talk pressure? Try being someone that gets tab targeted by raids.

Answer these questions:
*Is the skill fine in a 1v1?
*Is the skill fine in smallman fighting?
*Is the skill fine when outnumbered?

If your answer is yes, yes, no - then you are only looking to 'balance' the skill when you're outnumbered, and for what I consider obvious reasons that should never be the goal of balance decisions.

You say there is a lack of counter play for the different classes. I say that there is enough counterplay (sorcs may be the exception, but I'll get to that in a bit). You may not use it, but cloak especially on a magicka nb should be near as effective on jesus beam spam as purify. There is no excuse to argue a mag nb is having a hard time with the skill when they are not slotting their best counter and one of their best utility skills. The mechanics may be slightly bugged in the current patch, but again, you do not nerf other skills because a bug exists elsewhere. Think about how often we get balance changes - what do you think were to happen if the bug gets fixed? The skill will remain nerfed ad infinitum. What a terrible idea to balance around bugs. Back on topic, even on a stam nb, you can cloak about as many times as you're telling my magplar to dodge those snipes. I'd also point out because @Vangy seems to have pie-in-the-sky visions about 5 snipes always being fired off from different players at the same time, that one dodge roll will very likely not cover all of them and a magicka build can only do it so much. The counter play exists for snipe in that example - but it is just as limited (because of resources) as it is for a stam nb to cloak it.

I still maintain that you cannot even get past the premise for why the nerf convo should even begin. If you are only ever arguing the skill needs nerfs because of outnumbered situations, and you are arguing there is a lack of counter play because bugs exist that impact the counter play, then you are walking a dangerous path on balance. Those two things should never be the driver of nerfs or buffs. But let's do a class run down since you seem so focused on the counter play:

Templar: magicka templar should have no issue with jesus beam. If you are, you need to re-do your build. stam templar should be one of the best suited stam builds to deal with jesus beam, they will still struggle with it. They can purify about as often as a magplar can be expected to dodge roll something like snipe. Balanced for both styles of play imo.

NB: magicka nb should come in right behind magplar for being able to deal with jesus beam because of cloak. My survival is healing ward, harness, and purify - you can do the same thing but replace purify with cloak. stam nb are right behind stamplar because cloak counters just like purify for jesus beam and you can do it as often as a magplar can dodge roll. Balanced for both styles of play imo.

DK: both mag and stam struggle, stam to a great extent. Mag can still harness and healing ward, but that is unlikely to be enough in an outnumbered situation unless you have good access to LoS. Stam have nothing other than stam heals. I still say this is balanced for both because of wings. Wings reflects the majority of skills a templar would dps with - the only exception besides jesus beam is jabs, and jabs are highly counterable on a DK because of talons and fossilize. I know DKs hate jesus beam, but templars hate your wings just as much. When the only thing I can do is heavy resto attack you or jesus beam you for damage, I don't see you whispering me "hey, sorry all of your javelins, DFs, and reflective lights were bounced back in your face, it must suck to have your damage countered so well by a DK" ... I do see whispers complaining they died to jesus beam though. Stam DK was the absolute best counter to a magplar in the past few patches imo, so I feel no sympathy that they struggle against one skill in the magplar arsenal. Both lack counterplay to jesus beam, both are strong against the super majority of templars' other damage. It has a very strong rock/paper/scissor balance.

Sorc: no real strengths against magplar, no in class counter. They have the best mobility when streak works, so they can LoS and stun to interrupt better than others. They are already invested in shields, so they play similar to my magplar with healing ward and harness, but lack purify. They can run purge, but purge sucks. The only bonus is that most mag already slot crushing shock. Fix purge, maybe give a class counter, I'd be ok with that buff. Stam sorc same problem as stam DK, but no wings to justify jesus beam being so strong against it - perhaps the worst draw of the lot, but stam sorcs are used to that unfortunately. Perfectly fine buffing stam sorc.

That is a pretty balanced spread Kena. There are gaps (stam sorc in particular), but for the majority, there can be sound arguments made that the class options for counterplay exist to the extent that they should. I'd finish by suggesting that maybe ZOS wants to stop the 1vX style of farming potatoes, and jesus beam was an option to do so. They wanted to stop the ball group play, I'm sure some of the farmed potatoes find 1vX just as frustrating and toxic. But again, you still can't argue past the premise, and that's before we even begin to debate the specifics.

Solariken · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Counterplay to beam is focused in two class abilities, crushing shock, venom arrow, bashing, and LoS.

@KenaPKK those may be the explicit counters to the beam itself, but in reality 99.9% of the time any ranged CC will do the trick. Whenever someone opens a beam on me, I immediately block-cast a Javelin in their face. I actually prefer this because it creates a longer window of time for me to counter or run away before they can beam me again. Regular interrupts or bashing don't necessarily stop them from spamming.

If you don't want to slot an interrupt, just figure out which ranged CC you like and use that. Then once you realize how effective it is for countering RD, you can share the good news with all the other haters and one day we can stop seeing these RD nerf threads.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

@Joy_Division Do you agree this skill is bugged as Zheg has stated with the initial tick damage? Otherwise, how can we balance a bugged skill?!

Its like when dawnbreaker mag sorc meta with dawnbreaker dot ticking at the same time as the initial ult hit. Couldnt balance that without fixing it, right?

tist · July 2016

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

frozywozy · July 2016

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Zheg · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Then the skill needs to be scrapped. With that suggested change it would need to be instant cast or it would be worse than impale - a skill few nb even find value in running. Youd need to compensate templar damage elsewhere, and add viable counters to stam rolly pollies on other fronts. Sounds like a fail of a change.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

Vangy wrote: »

? Why compare snipe to RD?

I have a magplar and 5 people spamming snipe doesnt really do anything. Unless Im sleeping at my table or if those snipers all miraculously launch their snipe at the exact same split second and I have no sound, im just going to doge roll x 2 and get behind LOS. 5 templars spamming JB with u at full health = u dead. Blocking wont work cos each tick is counted as 1 block. And block cost is charged every 0.5s. You gona be at 0 spam much much faster than dodge rolling a few times lol. And the best kicker is RD cant be dodge rolled lol?

How does 5 nooblets spamming snipe compare to 5 nooblets spamming RD? 5 snipes countered by 1 single dodge roll lol. Any well build mag toon should have enuf stam to atleast cast dodge roll a few times with proper CP allocation. Stam toons are completely rekt by a few j-beam spammers lol. Cos there is 0 counter play. Blocking is punished by ZOS unless ur a perma block tank and doge roll dosent work with RD. And gl trying to interrupt 5 templars spamming J-beam before u die lol.

This is why I keep highlighting the problem with utterly shutting down block regeneration. I'm with @Personofsecrets on this, there needs to be some block regeneration. 0% just shuts down certain builds entirely, and while you can 'adapt' it unnecessarily wrecks those builds. There are better ways to stop people from blocking forever and we've offered suggestions for the last year on that subject matter.

frozywozy · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Then the skill needs to be scrapped. With that suggested change it would need to be instant cast or it would be worse than impale - a skill few nb even find value in running. Youd need to compensate templar damage elsewhere, and add viable counters to stam rolly pollies on other fronts. Sounds like a fail of a change.

@Zheg - I like how you decide to quote the only arguments you think you're able to counter and totally ignore other posts that I addressed to you. Then you complain about people not being able to handle your so special "counter-argument" that nobody knows anything of. Ironic.

Zheg · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Then the skill needs to be scrapped. With that suggested change it would need to be instant cast or it would be worse than impale - a skill few nb even find value in running. Youd need to compensate templar damage elsewhere, and add viable counters to stam rolly pollies on other fronts. Sounds like a fail of a change.

@Zheg - I like how you decide to quote the only arguments you think you're able to counter and totally ignore other posts that I addressed to you. Then you complain about people not being able to handle your so special "counter-argument" that nobody knows anything of. Ironic.

You make any number of outrageous claims frozn, not just on jesus beam. Regardless, you have no response to what i replied because you know its right. You made a poor suggestion without consideration of the implication, and i identified the consequences. You didnt disagree, you just get angry i didnt reply to your other poor suggestions.

On my counterpoints, if youve read anything on the last two pages its pretty clear what im arguing. If you 'dont't know anything of' it, then you arent reading.

frozywozy · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Then the skill needs to be scrapped. With that suggested change it would need to be instant cast or it would be worse than impale - a skill few nb even find value in running. Youd need to compensate templar damage elsewhere, and add viable counters to stam rolly pollies on other fronts. Sounds like a fail of a change.

@Zheg - I like how you decide to quote the only arguments you think you're able to counter and totally ignore other posts that I addressed to you. Then you complain about people not being able to handle your so special "counter-argument" that nobody knows anything of. Ironic.

You make any number of outrageous claims frozn, not just on jesus beam. Regardless, you have no response to what i replied because you know its right. You made a poor suggestion without consideration of the implication, and i identified the consequences. You didnt disagree, you just get angry i didnt reply to your other poor suggestions.

On my counterpoints, if youve read anything on the last two pages its pretty clear what im arguing. If you 'dont't know anything of' it, then you arent reading.

What you just said doesn't mean anything. You say words like a politician would do to drop down his opponent without really addressing my point. You neglected several of my posts and decide to address only the ones you see fit. Then you complain that nobody is addressing your "counter-argument". I don't care if you think my suggestions are "poor" or if you think you are right. This doesn't prouve anything and won't change anyone's mind.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

Zhegs view point is this skill is bugged and we need a bug fix. As one of the leading advocates to keep this skill in place - I think we should take him up on his suggestion to fix this skill so we can properly gauge its balance.

Joy_Division · July 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

@Joy_Division Do you agree this skill is bugged as Zheg has stated with the initial tick damage? Otherwise, how can we balance a bugged skill?!

Its like when dawnbreaker mag sorc meta with dawnbreaker dot ticking at the same time as the initial ult hit. Couldnt balance that without fixing it, right?

@FENGRUSH -

I would agree the skill does damage before its animation is visible and should not do that. If there is a post with evidence showing RD doing multiple tick damage ala the old Dawnbreaker, you are going to have to link that because I have not seen it.

I do not agree with people who say RD breaks LOS. Every night I use this ability, it gets broken by LOS, when the game is functioning correctly. I will grant in the lagsnarefest that is Cyrodiil, this has lead to many instances of players thinking they have attained LOS on their monitors but not according to ZoS's coding. I would contend this is a ZoS coding problem and true of all abilities (i.e I get hit with Crystal Frags even though my monitor tells me the sorcerer did not have LOS on me). I also would contend that when a three second channel hits a player for eight seconds in stupid lag, the target is not taking 8 seconds worth of damage ticks. The visuals in ESO are not to be trusted, but that does not mean the game's mechanics are always being violated.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

@Joy_Division I find the LOS works pretty well, it sometimes breaks a little slow and that can result in another tick - but it 'works'.

Im not saying that radiant deals a double tick up front. Im saying when you use the skill, and its connecting (before a player has time to react) - it has done damage. Pair this with the fact that its doing bonus execute damage below 50%, and it becomes too powerful. Zheg has stated this initial tick is a bug. Whether its a bug or a poorly created skill, this is too much.

Other executes will execute instantly, but their threshhold is not 50%. They are also not channeled, but they are going through roll dodge. I dont have issue with the range either - I think the issue with range is the beam actually holds farther than its initial cast. I dont know the exact range, but it seems to be the case. Maybe that shouldnt be in place.

But these things are far outweighed by the fact that a tick is dealt before a player has time to react. So when we say "below 50%"... and youre at 45% - and the beam has visibly shown up (if it does at all in lag) - then youve taken a tick, and now youre sitting at 25-35% depending on the beam strength ... maybe worse. The next tick could be fatal. Even if it isnt, thats the first 'tick' you have a reaction to. Whether its running and LOSing, going for CC, or whatever... youre likely eating that tick right away.

Other executes operate under 25% - you naturally are in a defensive position at that time. If beam hits you at 25% or more, that instant tick can kill you or put you in range that there is no recovery whatsoever for many classes.

Think that sums it up pretty well. If you want it fixed well, thats the place to start. Instead - ZOS will likely hack this skill to crap in 3-6months and templars like Zheg will say it was my fault for trying to adjust something that isnt well designed in its current format. Keep its unique features and strengths - but make it reasonable.. even if its still very strong. Or get a dumpster beam that has no changes except it only works under 25%.

Zheg · July 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zhegs view point is this skill is bugged and we need a bug fix. As one of the leading advocates to keep this skill in place - I think we should take him up on his suggestion to fix this skill so we can properly gauge its balance.

Its not just the initial tick, but also cleaning up LoS. It doesnt function all the time or as quickly as one would expect. I get frustrated as much as others when i go behind a tree and still have a jehovas witness trying to convert me.

No skill should be instant damage with no animation prior - even if a short one. Ive thought of this as a bug as other skills dont register dmg as quickly - but itd be worth seeing if invig drain does the same. It may be a problem with channel damage and not specific to jesus beam.

Ambush is a good example of something that is quick from skill activation but an observant player can tell its coming. If they cant telegraph the skill because of the animation, then id be fine adding a MINOR delay to the initial damage of jesus beam. Beam pops on you instantly, but you have a fraction of a second to react before damage starts. Whatever solution this ends up being needs to work fluidly with the skill being delayed and suffering poor performance in lag.

Also, no, if and when the skill is nerfed to uselessness i wont blame you. There are many others that would be more at fault, and at this point it is a group effort. I get furious seeing people cite bugs (not just your initial tick dmg one) as justifications to nerf the skill. Thats ridiculous.

Zheg · July 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

tist wrote: »

Ability should only deal execute damage when cast within execute range.. also 50% is too high.

Yep. should be around 25% or so.

Then the skill needs to be scrapped. With that suggested change it would need to be instant cast or it would be worse than impale - a skill few nb even find value in running. Youd need to compensate templar damage elsewhere, and add viable counters to stam rolly pollies on other fronts. Sounds like a fail of a change.

@Zheg - I like how you decide to quote the only arguments you think you're able to counter and totally ignore other posts that I addressed to you. Then you complain about people not being able to handle your so special "counter-argument" that nobody knows anything of. Ironic.

You make any number of outrageous claims frozn, not just on jesus beam. Regardless, you have no response to what i replied because you know its right. You made a poor suggestion without consideration of the implication, and i identified the consequences. You didnt disagree, you just get angry i didnt reply to your other poor suggestions.

On my counterpoints, if youve read anything on the last two pages its pretty clear what im arguing. If you 'dont't know anything of' it, then you arent reading.

What you just said doesn't mean anything. You say words like a politician would do to drop down his opponent without really addressing my point. You neglected several of my posts and decide to address only the ones you see fit. Then you complain that nobody is addressing your "counter-argument". I don't care if you think my suggestions are "poor" or if you think you are right. This doesn't prouve anything and won't change anyone's mind.

I neglected several of your posts because i find the content the same as others, completely ridiculous, or i was already responding to others. Im glad you wait with such bated breath to hear from me. If you have a point i havent addressed youre welcome to say it. Ive seen every thought you have on the skill in previous threads, ill be legitimately surprised if you have a point that hasnt already been raised.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Could be a cyrodill lag thing, I haven't really noticed it when using it outside of cyrodill but I also play at a constant *** ping, maybe one with low ping could test it outside of cyrodill to see how the first tick is?

Personofsecrets · July 2016

At some point the meta will again be mostly about getting 1-shot via spike damage. When that meta comes you better hope for the battle-spirit debuff on damage to go up or hope that you have enough stamina to block.

Zheg · July 2016

Fixing/buffing purge seems to be popular. I wonder how many would still call for nerfs if purge was just buffed into usefulness. That may be one of the big gaps of disagreement here. I see no need for nerfs (among other reasons) because i have purify, GG. If purge was cheaper/better and more people were able to find jesus beam not so bad as a result, that seems like the better course to me. If you choose not to run a buffed purge, thats your choice and on you - i choose not to run defensive posture and accept the results, you should too.