Fix the auto ban system v2

Smileybones · July 2016

You asked a question and got a response. But it looks like you don't really care and just want to jump on people's throats.

If you care to actually read the thread you 'll get the answers to your arguments. To summarize them: jails are full of people claming their innocence.

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That's not how it works. You don't use heuristics like this in an anti-cheat system. It's not about players being superhumanly good, it's about the game detecting unauthorized manipulation of it's memory. No matter how "awesome" you are, you'll never mess up ESO's page file. You'll never create the illusion of a code injection through superlative play.

I'm sorry kid, but you've been had. The people you're looking up to? Your heroes? The ones that just got hit with bans because they tripped the anti-cheat system? They didn't do it because they're so awesome. They did it because they've been lying to you this entire time.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Players who are put off of the game because they're afraid of being identified as cheaters fall into two camps. Players who are, in fact, cheating, and are afraid of being caught, and players who are so paranoid that if it wasn't this, they'd still be scared off the game for fear that the NSA is secretly implanting thoughts via microchips embedded in their index finger.

In both cases, nothing of value was lost.

It is no conspiracy that, for example, gap closers currently work in such a bizarre way that they could cause anyone to accidentally be teleported to a place that they are not allowed to be or cause anyone to have the appearance of cheating.

It is no conspiracy that parts of the game, for example extended chains, have been broken and not fixed for large parts of time. A broken system that is part of banning players could cause any legitimate player to become banned.

While it may be convenient for your argument to try and shoehorn everyone who ends up banned as being a certain way, you should see that the dichotomy you set up is a false one and that there is much more nuanced perspective about the current ban systems.

Additionally, I think that you may be a bit misguided in believing that nothing of value is lost if only cheaters are banned. Last I heard, 40 cheaters were allowed to rejoin the game and that must mean that someone at ZOS found some value, no matter how minute that value was, in allowing such players to play the game.

Again, there is a much larger web of what is going on then you let on. There is so much going on that I would go as far to say that we can't necessarily trust our instincts in these matters. Maybe we don't always believe our close friends that we've played with for years, but we definitely have the reasons to almost always doubt the totally unknown people and computer systems that are behind deciding bans at ZOS.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

Smileybones wrote: »

You asked a question and got a response. But it looks like you don't really care and just want to jump on people's throats.

If you care to actually read the thread you 'll get the answers to your arguments. To summarize them: jails are full of people claming their innocence.

It's a funny assumption you have that I do not read the thread or earlier comments. You can't possibly know this about me because you are not me.

Additionally, please do not attempt to associate what I am saying with such harsh language. I have been totally well-mannered in our discussion and not, as you put it, "jump on people's throats."

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That's not how it works. You don't use heuristics like this in an anti-cheat system. It's not about players being superhumanly good, it's about the game detecting unauthorized manipulation of it's memory. No matter how "awesome" you are, you'll never mess up ESO's page file. You'll never create the illusion of a code injection through superlative play.

I'm sorry kid, but you've been had. The people you're looking up to? Your heroes? The ones that just got hit with bans because they tripped the anti-cheat system? They didn't do it because they're so awesome. They did it because they've been lying to you this entire time.

How do you know that the anti-cheat system works in any given way? Do you work for ZOS? Did you install their anti-cheat system? How do you even know that an anti-cheat system exists? I'll be charitable and also assume that some computer system is in place, but how do we really know that for sure?

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Players who are put off of the game because they're afraid of being identified as cheaters fall into two camps. Players who are, in fact, cheating, and are afraid of being caught, and players who are so paranoid that if it wasn't this, they'd still be scared off the game for fear that the NSA is secretly implanting thoughts via microchips embedded in their index finger.

In both cases, nothing of value was lost.

It is no conspiracy that, for example, gap closers currently work in such a bizarre way that they could cause anyone to accidentally be teleported to a place that they are not allowed to be or cause anyone to have the appearance of cheating.

It is no conspiracy that parts of the game, for example extended chains, have been broken and not fixed for large parts of time. A broken system that is part of banning players could cause any legitimate player to become banned.

While it may be convenient for your argument to try and shoehorn everyone who ends up banned as being a certain way, you should see that the dichotomy you set up is a false one and that there is much more nuanced perspective about the current ban systems.

Additionally, I think that you may be a bit misguided in believing that nothing of value is lost if only cheaters are banned. Last I heard, 40 cheaters were allowed to rejoin the game and that must mean that someone at ZOS found some value, no matter how minute that value was, in allowing such players to play the game.

Again, there is a much larger web of what is going on then you let on. There is so much going on that I would go as far to say that we can't necessarily trust our instincts in these matters. Maybe we don't always believe our close friends that we've played with for years, but we definitely have the reasons to almost always doubt the totally unknown people and computer systems that are behind deciding bans at ZOS.

The people who you're trying to defend, didn't get banned because of abusing gap closers. No one climbed to the top of the leaderboards on those skills. Someone getting banned for cheating their way into a keep using a chains... hey, you know what? That IS an exploit. A rather well documented one, in fact.

Someone trips the ban because their gap closer propels them halfway across Cyrodiil? I haven't heard of that happening, but, hey, if it does, that's why there is an appeals process for bans. But it wasn't because they were "so good, they must be cheating." Like I said, kid, you've been had.

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That's not how it works. You don't use heuristics like this in an anti-cheat system. It's not about players being superhumanly good, it's about the game detecting unauthorized manipulation of it's memory. No matter how "awesome" you are, you'll never mess up ESO's page file. You'll never create the illusion of a code injection through superlative play.

I'm sorry kid, but you've been had. The people you're looking up to? Your heroes? The ones that just got hit with bans because they tripped the anti-cheat system? They didn't do it because they're so awesome. They did it because they've been lying to you this entire time.

How do you know that the anti-cheat system works in any given way? Do you work for ZOS? Did you install their anti-cheat system? How do you even know that an anti-cheat system exists? I'll be charitable and also assume that some computer system is in place, but how do we really know that for sure?

Because I actually have a degree in this ***.

Nifty2g · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That's not how it works. You don't use heuristics like this in an anti-cheat system. It's not about players being superhumanly good, it's about the game detecting unauthorized manipulation of it's memory. No matter how "awesome" you are, you'll never mess up ESO's page file. You'll never create the illusion of a code injection through superlative play.

I'm sorry kid, but you've been had. The people you're looking up to? Your heroes? The ones that just got hit with bans because they tripped the anti-cheat system? They didn't do it because they're so awesome. They did it because they've been lying to you this entire time.

How do you know that the anti-cheat system works in any given way? Do you work for ZOS? Did you install their anti-cheat system? How do you even know that an anti-cheat system exists? I'll be charitable and also assume that some computer system is in place, but how do we really know that for sure?

Because I actually have a degree in this ***.

That line only works in some situations... technology is full of loopholes and often breaks.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

@starkerealm , you can keep making these claims about how you think the so-called cheat detection system works, but even with a degree and knowledge on this subject, you really can't know about the actual system that is in place.

Do you have any concrete evidence about how the system that is in place works? For example, do you maybe have a video showing the so-called cheat detection system in action?

Until you produce such evidence, I don't see how you can rationally trust that such a system is not prone to errors. We just keep having the same problem where you make these claims about a supposed system, but you just seem to be stating your opinions about how the so-called ban system works rather than facts.

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , you can keep making these claims about how you think the so-called cheat detection system works, but even with a degree and knowledge on this subject, you really can't know about the actual system that is in place.

Actually, I can.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , you can keep making these claims about how you think the so-called cheat detection system works, but even with a degree and knowledge on this subject, you really can't know about the actual system that is in place.

Actually, I can.

How do you have knowledge about the actual system that is in place? Do you work for ZOS? Do you know for sure that ZOS implemented a system that you partly worked on? Is someone at ZOS your friend?

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

How do you have knowledge about the actual system that is in place?

Because software isn't some mysterious thing that happens out there via cyber-sorcery. Because, I actually know what I'm talking about. And, because, if ZOS was really using a poorly optimized honeypot as their anti-cheating mechanic, every vampire who equipped a set of Nights Silence would have been banned on the spot the moment they broke the sound barrier along with their legs.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

How do you have knowledge about the actual system that is in place?

Because software isn't some mysterious thing that happens out there via cyber-sorcery. Because, I actually know what I'm talking about. And, because, if ZOS was really using a poorly optimized honeypot as their anti-cheating mechanic, every vampire who equipped a set of Nights Silence would have been banned on the spot the moment the broke the sound barrier and their legs.

You may understand some things about software, but it appears that you really don't know anything about the specific so-called ban system that is actually in place. Look at @Nifty2g 's comment. They know quite a bit about software and also seem to hold some skepticism about the claims you make. Perhaps you do know about the specific system that is in place, but you haven't actually provided any evidence of that and, in place of actual evidence, you have provided hyperbole.

You don't provide any actual evidence of how a system in place works, we all know how prone to error ZOS systems may be, and you attempt to tie being concerned about the so-called ban system to paranoia. You appear to have taken your position based on faith alone and you certainly haven't given any evidence to outsiders that you may wish to convince of your position.

Well, even if you can't provide us with evidence that the so-called ban system is in mostly good shape, then maybe you can answer a different question. How many legitimate players being banned is a fair trade off for cheating players. Certainly, as someone knowledgable about software, you believe that false positives can happen - how many false positives should be allowed before we get worried about the so-called ban system?

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Look at @Nifty2g 's comment.

I saw it. They're not implying anything I didn't say in this thread pages ago. False positives are a thing. Also no anti-cheat system is flawless.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

You don't provide any actual evidence of how a system in place works...

Actually, I just did. In my last post. But you weren't paying attention, because you don't care what other people say. You don't. You're just going to keep crying about how your friends couldn't have lied to you, they couldn't have, it must be some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry kid, it's not, they lied to you. They were cheating. They were never that good. They used cheat engine, or some other Peek'n'Poke utility to make themselves appear better than they were. Now they're gone. It wasn't a false positive. They were cheating, and they were caught.

starkerealm · July 2016

@Personofsecrets, you were right about one thing.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

...then we can't have a meaningful conversation.

It's true.

Until you're actually willing to educate yourself on the topics you wish to discuss, it's not possible for you to have a meaningful conversation with anyone about them.

Start by looking up cheat detection systems. Do that, then come back and talk. Until then, you've nothing meaningful to contribute here.

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Look at @Nifty2g 's comment.

I saw it. They're not implying anything I didn't say in this thread pages ago. False positives are a thing. Also no anti-cheat system is flawless.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

You don't provide any actual evidence of how a system in place works...

Actually, I just did. In my last post. But you weren't paying attention, because you don't care what other people say. You don't. You're just going to keep crying about how your friends couldn't have lied to you, they couldn't have, it must be some grand conspiracy.

I'm sorry kid, it's not, they lied to you. They were cheating. They were never that good. They used cheat engine, or some other Peek'n'Poke utility to make themselves appear better than they were. Now they're gone. It wasn't a false positive. They were cheating, and they were caught.

@starkerealm , where did I write that a friend of mine could not have lied to me?

What about my question that you have not answered multiple times? How many players should we be okay with getting banned for a false-positive so long as real cheaters are getting banned?

How do you claim to have knowledge about any bans that have happened? Are you part of the customer support team? Because, if not, then I see it as likely that what you are saying is just speculation.

Additionally, can you please prove that you have knowledge in software and how, more specifically, ban systems work. Without proving that you have such knowledge to us you can't really be a credible source of information as to why we shouldn't be concerned about the so-called ban system.

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What about my question that you have not answered multiple times?

I've simply been ignoring your irrelevant questions because I have better things to do with my time.

Want to say something semi-useful? Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_online_games#Anti-cheating_methods_and_limitations

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What about my question that you have not answered multiple times?

I've simply been ignoring your irrelevant questions because I have better things to do with my time.

You are well aware of false positives so how is a question about how we should feel regarding false positives irrelevant to our overall discussion of the so-called ban system?

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What about my question that you have not answered multiple times?

I've simply been ignoring your irrelevant questions because I have better things to do with my time.

You are well aware of false positives so how is a question about how we should feel regarding false positives irrelevant to our overall discussion of the so-called ban system?

Because "how you feel" is irrelevant to system analysis.

False positives are unfortunate, and something that as a developer you want to avoid at all costs, but because of the variations in software and hardware configurations, they are inevitable. Ultimately, false positives are why you need a human customer service team to pick up the pieces. It's simply a functional necessity.

At the same time, cheat detection on a multiplayer title is non-negotiable. And ESO cedes a lot of authority to the client to allow Cyrodiil to function at all. This opens the door for varieties of cheating that simply aren't possible in a traditional, strictly server-side, MMO.

But, we're not talking about banning people. That's simply revoking their account's access. That's all the ban system is. We're talking about cheat detection. You're approaching it from the idea that the form of cheat detection used by ESO is a heuristics honeypot, which is ludicrous, and entirely disproven by past glitched interactions that didn't result in players being banned en mass.

If you're honestly worried about getting banned because you're "too good," then don't. For two reasons. One, because you're not that good, and two because that's not what people are getting banned for.

Seriously, as I said repeatedly before, it would not surprise me if the video capture software did produce a false positive and got these guys banned. Or the could have been cheating the entire time. And, from the perspective of, simply saying, "no, ZOS isn't banning people because they're 'too good,'" I don't care which it is. It doesn't matter if they're legitimate bans or false positives when it comes to a discussion of how cheat detection works.

Asking "how many false positives are acceptable?" is a poison pill question. The answer is zero. The reality is it will never be there. You do what you can.

starkerealm · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because I actually have a degree in this ***.

That line only works in some situations... technology is full of loopholes and often breaks.

@Nifty2g, yeah, but look at the context here. @Personofsecrets is literally saying that ZOS programed the game to ban people if they were sufficiently skilled.

Mojmir · July 2016

If the system in place is anything like VAC, I'd trust it before any "gaming friends"

Sunburnt_Penguin · July 2016

Fun fun fun on the Autobahn

Personofsecrets · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because I actually have a degree in this ***.

That line only works in some situations... technology is full of loopholes and often breaks.

@Nifty2g, yeah, but look at the context here. @Personofsecrets is literally saying that ZOS programed the game to ban people if they were sufficiently skilled.

That is incorrect @starkerealm . I don't know why you draw that conclusion because all I said regarding skilled players is that they could be so skilled that they trigger some so-called anti-cheat system.

Saying that players could be so skilled that they inadvertently trigger a so-called anti-cheat system is not equal to saying that "ZOS programed the game to ban people if they were sufficiently skilled."

What I said makes sense and what you wrote about me can probably be classified as a strawman argument. That is a type of argument that is made where one party distorts the position of another party in order to make it easier to dismiss their position.

starkerealm · July 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because I actually have a degree in this ***.

That line only works in some situations... technology is full of loopholes and often breaks.

@Nifty2g, yeah, but look at the context here. @Personofsecrets is literally saying that ZOS programed the game to ban people if they were sufficiently skilled.

That is incorrect @starkerealm . I don't know why you draw that conclusion because all I said regarding skilled players is that they could be so skilled that they trigger some so-called anti-cheat system.

Saying that players could be so skilled that they inadvertently trigger a so-called anti-cheat system is not equal to saying that "ZOS programed the game to ban people if they were sufficiently skilled."

What I said makes sense and what you wrote about me can probably be classified as a strawman argument. That is a type of argument that is made where one party distorts the position of another party in order to make it easier to dismiss their position.

You're confusing your own lack of comprehension for a malicious fallacy. This is exactly why I suggested you attempt to educate yourself on the subject.

Attackopsn · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Any update on if this is being looked into at all? Its absolutely destroying end game competition as players dont want to run the risk of being banned for being "too good".

Then they should stop using CE and try to compete legitimately.

you dont need cheat engine to get a good score I stream a lot of my vMA runs and hold #2 for sorc and #5 for NB on NA. If you honestly believe people need to exploit to do decent in this game then you need to watch some of jace's and andy.s' videos showing whats truly possible in vMA if you dedicate yourself to it.

And you haven't been banned for cheating. Like I said, they should stop using CE and try to compete legitimately.

Really? We have people on console with 576k scores where there are no cheat engines. People like sneaky, jace and andy definitely arent cheating and have tons of video proof. You should be ashamed to be attacking these individuals who do nothing but work hard and get banned while blatant cheaters run free.

asneakybanana · July 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

If the system in place is anything like VAC, I'd trust it before any "gaming friends"

Not 100% positive on how vac works but I believe it checks your background programs to see if there's any exploit programs running as well as looking at your in game play to see if there is anything out of line. As far as I've been told by my questions to ZoS their program only checks for potential in game problems. But zos doesn't realize what you can legitimately do in this game.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

Once again these threads turn for the worst . Players defending their honor on one side and players defending ZOS for maintaining the integrity Of the GAME clash . This never ends well . Avoid talking about the people and talk about the issue instead is difficult when the people are apart of the issue ...

Stay out of trouble an avoid it if you can't separate them .

starkerealm · July 2016

asneakybanana wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

If the system in place is anything like VAC, I'd trust it before any "gaming friends"

Not 100% positive on how vac works but I believe it checks your background programs to see if there's any exploit programs running as well as looking at your in game play to see if there is anything out of line. As far as I've been told by my questions to ZoS their program only checks for potential in game problems. But zos doesn't realize what you can legitimately do in this game.

VAC also checks for .dll injections and processes altering memory locations.

asneakybanana · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

If the system in place is anything like VAC, I'd trust it before any "gaming friends"

Not 100% positive on how vac works but I believe it checks your background programs to see if there's any exploit programs running as well as looking at your in game play to see if there is anything out of line. As far as I've been told by my questions to ZoS their program only checks for potential in game problems. But zos doesn't realize what you can legitimately do in this game.

VAC also checks for .dll injections and processes altering memory locations.

Yes as I said I don't believe Eso's system is checking for much if anything outside of on game play.

starkerealm · July 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Any update on if this is being looked into at all? Its absolutely destroying end game competition as players dont want to run the risk of being banned for being "too good".

Then they should stop using CE and try to compete legitimately.

you dont need cheat engine to get a good score I stream a lot of my vMA runs and hold #2 for sorc and #5 for NB on NA. If you honestly believe people need to exploit to do decent in this game then you need to watch some of jace's and andy.s' videos showing whats truly possible in vMA if you dedicate yourself to it.

And you haven't been banned for cheating. Like I said, they should stop using CE and try to compete legitimately.

Really? We have people on console with 576k scores where there are no cheat engines. People like sneaky, jace and andy definitely arent cheating and have tons of video proof. You should be ashamed to be attacking these individuals who do nothing but work hard and get banned while blatant cheaters run free.

If you honestly believe it's impossible to run unsigned code on a console, I have some sad news for you.

You can't do it without physically altering the hardware or having a devkit. But it is possible, and people do.

In fact, because of the hardware security, software detection tends to be less stringent on the consoles.