Fix the auto ban system v2

Fyaal

That's the whole point though. They're banning legit players who are achieving excellent scores because they seem "too good". Not only banning players who are using CE, but legit ones too.

Chori

Fyaal wrote: »

That's the whole point though. They're banning legit players who are achieving excellent scores because they seem "too good". Not only banning players who are using CE, but legit ones too.

But like I said on the other thread, you dont know which run they were banned for. We don't even know if the run they were banned for was on the highest score one, we don't know even if the run they were banned for is on the leaderboard score. Do you see this point though? I could attempt to make VMA videos and pretend I'm fantastic and legit after hours and hours of practice, but anybody with a brain can now cheat in there and smart people knows that.

I don't know these people that get banned but I know they are getting banned after game logs being checked or triggered by something that should not happen in game, and at this point I trust those logs more than players because those are not something players can modify. It's simple tho if they are clean then their appeal will work and they will be back in game, and players who get banned should be happy because ZOS releases them after a few days or weeks anyway... I dont evne know whats the point of this thread after that being said

Father_Of_Vape

The amount of ignorance in this thread ceases to amaze me, and makes me question if some of these guys are trolling or actually think that these guys who have video proof of their runs are using Cheat Engine. Its just making you guys look bad

Vercingetorix

You know, you could try to not to do anything remotely bannable as a start. If you have a doubt before you do something, don't do it.

starkerealm

Father_Of_Vape wrote: »

The amount of ignorance in this thread ceases to amaze me, and makes me question if some of these guys are trolling or actually think that these guys who have video proof of their runs are using Cheat Engine. Its just making you guys look bad

I fully understand false positives are possible. In fact, it's entirely possible the thing that got them flagged as cheaters was their video capture software derping around.

At the same time, I'm not going to jump on the paranoia train of, "they're just banning everyone who's good at the game." That's just stupid.

JWKe

Autoban imo is just absolutely LAZY!

Elsonso

Fyaal wrote: »

That's the whole point though. They're banning legit players who are achieving excellent scores because they seem "too good". Not only banning players who are using CE, but legit ones too.

Most people who believe that people are falsely banned (or suspended) do so because they are told by someone else that it was false. Hearsay. It is in this manner that people start to believe that there is some sort of mass auto-ban going crazy and running over the innocent. It is in this way that people are TOLD to fear playing the game due to unjust auto bans.

People point at videos to "prove" that they are falsely banned (or suspended). They are meaningless because those videos cannot prove that they were NOT cheating. At best, they can show they were not cheating at the time the video was made.

If a cop pulls someone over for speeding, the driver can't claim they were not speeding by pulling out videos from last week that show they were driving the speed limit. If a driver tried that in real life, they would get laughed at.

A player might get banned or suspended for activities that were not even related to what is depicted in a video. Maybe they tried out Cheat Engine and ran it for an hour or two while they just ran around. Maybe the cheat detection picked up on that. Maybe they got in trouble for that. As much as people want to believe otherwise, no video can show what is happening when the player is not being recorded.

The only, and I mean only, video evidence that would even apply in this case would be a video from the the exact same time that ZOS claims the player was cheating. A video that CLEARLY shows no cheating at the very instant that ZOS claims cheating was happening. ZOS would want to see that video.

I am not saying that ZOS is perfect, and that no one gets banned falsely. ZOS can certainly make mistakes. ZOS has probably banned people falsely. ZOS has probably unbanned people who were guilty. I am not certain that we can trust the ZOS criteria for doing bans and suspensions

I just see no reason to trust the player more than ZOS.

RinaldoGandolphi

As with everything, the devil is in the details.

I doubt ZOS bans without some sort of evidence. No one just gets banned for no reason. That's just BS. There is far more to this story then the OP or players want you to believe, always is.

It makes no sense for ZOS to ban their paying customers for no reason, color me skeptical till some real solid proof of innocence or guilt is shown.

FortheloveofKrist

Father_Of_Vape wrote: »

The amount of ignorance in this thread ceases to amaze me, and makes me question if some of these guys are trolling or actually think that these guys who have video proof of their runs are using Cheat Engine. Its just making you guys look bad

Wait, do you mean it never ceases to amaze you? Or did you just abruptly stop being amazed? And if the thread has ceased to amaze you, then what emotion does the thread now elicit?

OH, THE QUESTIONS!

Personofsecrets

reasons to trust our friends

1. They are our friends
2. We play with them in legitimate ways for years and not seen them using CE
3. We have never heard them talk about CE in the context of using it
4. We have watched them grow over time

reasons to trust ZOS

1.
2.
3.
4.

Personofsecrets

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As with everything, the devil is in the details.

I doubt ZOS bans without some sort of evidence. No one just gets banned for no reason. That's just BS. There is far more to this story then the OP or players want you to believe, always is.

It makes no sense for ZOS to ban their paying customers for no reason, color me skeptical till some real solid proof of innocence or guilt is shown.

We don't even know what the reasons are. They could be as little as being reported.

GivvumBoane

This is going to get locked for the same reason the last one got locked.

Taleof2Cities

Ackwalan wrote: »

And I have seen bigfoot on numerous occasions. I could be lying, but you won't know for sure.

I also saw Elvis making crop circles about an hour and a half ago just outside town ...

starkerealm

Ke Jun Wen wrote: »

Autoban imo is just absolutely LAZY!

It's necessary. There is no way to have enough employees to manually watch each and every player logged in at any given moment.

Rohamad_Ali

Just an observation: There's a lot of shady names in this thread , literally . Asneakybanana , PersonofSecrets ... Maybe they just assume your up to no good ? Maybe new forum handles like "LovestoPlayfair" and "Hi_Im_Right_Here!" Would help ?

:P

starkerealm

Personofsecrets wrote: »

reasons to trust our friends

1. They are our friends
2. We play with them in legitimate ways for years and not seen them using CE
3. We have never heard them talk about CE in the context of using it
4. We have watched them grow over time

reasons to trust ZOS

1. ZOS isn't run by teenagers trying to impress you with how awesome they are.
2. ZOS has nothing to gain by removing customers from their game.
3. Unlike your "friends," ZOS has no incentive to lie about someone being a cheater.
4. ZOS does not use Cheat Engine to decieve their "friends."

You forgot to finish your post, fixed that for ya.

The fact remains, when ZOS bans someone, they're removing a paying customer from their game. If they're going to do that, they need a good reason to do so, otherwise they're literally just costing themselves money for no benefit.

Meanwhile, players have every reason to lie about cheating. After all, when you've been lying to your friends, you never want to be caught out in the open, with all your deceptions revealed. If they lie about being cheaters, they can hope their friends will believe them, rally around them, and force ZOS to let them back in to continue cheating.

Now, there are false positives with any cheat detection system. If these guys have been banned, and it was actually their antivirus or recording software that tripped the cheat detection, then that's why there's an appeals process. But, ZOS decided these players were more of a liability than an asset. That should tell you a lot about your supposed friends.

Personofsecrets

Although ZOS may remove a paying customer, there could be the idea that if they make an example out of players, then there may be more customers that stay as subscribers. There could be this abstract monetary incentive for banning a player.

Additionally, players who are banned are actually encouraged to make a new account. Someone would have to buy the game a second time in order to do so. There could be this direct monetary incentive.

Because of just those incentives that you neglect to mention, your logic collapses.

Additionally, you should see those who make the bans as individuals who have their own motives and human biases that guide their action. These people may be put under plenty of pressure to make bans right now. Perhaps customer support has incentives to have a not so strict ban policy so that they can look like they are doing there job to those that they work for.

Finally, due to countless parts of the game that are rolled out in bad shape, we see many game systems are subject to mistake. We have no good reason to believe that any ban systems that are in place are working as intended or even working at all.

Personofsecrets

There has also been this funny notion that businesses always do what is best for their wallet. We don't have to think too hard to know about times when people may have been denied business because of guidelines other than what will make the most money.

There are more incentives at work than just the wallet, but like I said in the previous post, even people thinking that ZOS loses out on money when they make a ban aren't necessarily correct.

Personofsecrets

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Ackwalan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Who told you they weren't cheating? Let me guess, the cheaters that got banned told you.

Personofsecrets

Ackwalan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Who told you they weren't cheating? Let me guess, the cheaters that got banned told you.

What about my question though?

Personofsecrets

I think we should also know the ratio of legitimate to non-legitimate players you think is okay to have permanently banned.

Is 1 legitimate for 1 non-legitimate fair? What about 1 legitimate for 100 non-legitimate players? Where do you draw the line?

Clearly you are okay with some players, at the very least, suffering through false-positive situations.

Personofsecrets

Also, do you believe that ZOS has mishandled large portions of this game? If you don't, then we can't have a meaningful conversation.

Smileybones

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Only a handfull of players are concerned and you know it. Also ever heard about the edit button instead of flooding the topic with answers.

Personofsecrets

You should also face the fact that not all players are being treated equally.

Some players get temporarily banned despite having been caught cheating before.

Some players get permanently banned despite having no previous offenses.

Some players are supposedly allowed to offer so-called scans of their computer.

Some players ask for that treatment, but aren't granted such an offer.

Is this system ideal for you? Do you at least think that it could be improved?

Personofsecrets

Smileybones wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Only a handfull of players are concerned and you know it. Also ever heard about the edit button instead of flooding the topic with answers.

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That being said, you are only assuming that only a handful of players are concerned about such a thing. Last I saw, a couple of thousand people watched a pretty serious video about this subject. It is a video that certainly concerned me. Maybe the video didn't concern them all, but what is a handful and why should a handful of players have to be worried about flawed banning systems?

Ackwalan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Who told you they weren't cheating? Let me guess, the cheaters that got banned told you.

What about my question though?

how does ZOS make money, if ESO gets a reputation of a cheaters paradise and people stop playing.

Smileybones

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Only a handfull of players are concerned and you know it. Also ever heard about the edit button instead of flooding the topic with answers.

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That being said, you are only assuming that only a handful of players are concerned about such a thing. Last I saw, couple of thousand people watched a pretty serious video about this subject. It is a video that certainly concerned me. Maybe the video didn't concern them all, but what is a handful and why should a handful of players have to be worried about flawed banning systems?

I didn't mean concerned in that way. I mean only a handfull of players can reach the point where they can be banned, while the majority of players don't risk anything at all. That's for your question about how many customer they could loose.

As for your other following questions they have been answered already, time to read back carefully.

Personofsecrets

Smileybones wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Only a handfull of players are concerned and you know it. Also ever heard about the edit button instead of flooding the topic with answers.

Perhaps only a handful of players have such great skills that they could trigger a false positive via there regular game play. Does that make the system right?

That being said, you are only assuming that only a handful of players are concerned about such a thing. Last I saw, couple of thousand people watched a pretty serious video about this subject. It is a video that certainly concerned me. Maybe the video didn't concern them all, but what is a handful and why should a handful of players have to be worried about flawed banning systems?

I didn't mean concerned in that way. I mean only a handfull of players can reach the point where they can be banned, while the majority of players don't risk anything at all. That's for your question about how many customer they could loose.

As for your other following questions they have been answered already, time to read back carefully.

Are you okay if totally legitimate players are banned? Is the logic really that there are only a handful of players that are skilled enough to trigger a ban and so be it? If not, then do you think that ZOS is not capable of making serious wide scale errors? If you don't think that about ZOS, then you are mistaken, but if you do think that about ZOS, then why do you think that so many people are dead set on claiming that only cheaters have to worry about being banned.

I mean, if people are generally okay with hand-fulls of players here and there triggering false positives, then shouldn't we all be concerned that something is wrong with the system not just because it is part computerized and prone to some error making, but to a greater extent because the players themselves have granted ZOS the license to unjustly ban some players?

starkerealm

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@starkerealm , how does ZOS make money if players don't want to play the game because they may be detected as cheating when they are playing totally legitimately?

Players who are put off of the game because they're afraid of being identified as cheaters fall into two camps. Players who are, in fact, cheating, and are afraid of being caught, and players who are so paranoid that if it wasn't this, they'd still be scared off the game for fear that the NSA is secretly implanting thoughts via microchips embedded in their index finger.

In both cases, nothing of value was lost.