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Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
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Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
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Sure it's easy to counter, but I'm not talking about the person being attacked. I'm talking about the user. And there are lot of players around who roam around and just beam targets at full health until they die. That is the toxic game play I am addressing.
Again, I think you are missing the point of the main post. And for what it's worth, beams are not hurting me at the moment. I'm mainly posting about the terrible gameplay it brings, and in general, its pretty much an inevitable death and is the cause for most deaths when dealing with multiple targets and a beamer.
Can't stand the snare meta Wrobel has been giving this game, I stay away from large groups@Nifty2g you think RD creates toxic gameplay in this infinite root/snare bombard and negate stacking meta?
I'm curious to know what kind of PvP you do. Do you run solo or in a group?
I like duo or small grouping
No, THIS is a pathetic argument, just because you are outnumbered does not mean you are going to die. What kind of crap is that? Stop forcing the game into Zerg v Zerg metas
Dealing with 1 or 2 beams is fine, nothing that bad about it really.
But having someone beam you in the back while you're trying to take on 1 or 2 people and having that person just spam beam on you is just absolutely pathetic. That is the main point of this thread, and I've done this to see what it's like, I know it's pathetic
What's pathetic is you even making this out to be a thing. There are plenty of skills that would take you out while you are fighting 1-2 people. That's the point. You die in pvp when you are outnumbered and/or when someone is sniping you from range. What a terrible argument!
TBH RD shouldn't be giving you issues in small groups. Especially if those groups are 6 or less as you guys will actually have group-wide access to the Purge (which is STILL egregiously broken). The only time RD is ever a problem for me is if I'm running solo and I have a couple of people RDing me while a couple more are bombarding me.
If you are dying to RD spam in small groups then you guys need to focus on more purges and more rapids so you can LoS around things better. If you want you can come play with us sometime--I think you'll find that RD spam is responsible for less deaths than Bombard/Negate/Focused Aim spam.
I didn't miss the point. You're saying it creates toxic gameplay. My counter point is that RD is actually quite easy to counter in most situations. Unlike, for example, Negate to which often the only counter is another Negate.
And I disagree that a skill which is easy to counter creates toxic gameplay. Skills that are very difficult to counter, on the other hand, like Bombard, are a different story.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.Edited by Zheg on July 8, 2016 4:13PM13 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least#MOREORBS0 -
Munavar✭✭✭How can you be doubtful of not dying to 4 or 5 people using other execute\combos on you and not killing you? I was going to mention that the excessive damage in the same timeframe has been already discussed but I see that it already has been mentioned.
In my opinion, the issue here (as already stated by Cryhavoc) is that the ability serves as a visual ‘pointer’ enabling more players to focus one on one player.
As far as using it at full health, I for one do it for 2 reasons …
1) I tried the other ranged skill and it was reflected.
2) The others in the group are already attacking so it is only a matter of time before the health drops to the ‘correct and acceptable usage’ point.
You asked for other kill lists … But I don’t really kill anything so it is not very helpful.
Puncturing Sweep 711
Radiant Destruction 517
Burning Light 272
Proximity Detonation 203
Luminous Shards 136
Reflective Light 72
Blazing Spear 50
Meatbag Catapult 32
Dark Flare 18
Aurora Javelin 12
The rest are all below 10Dae - TM3 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Range nerf, get rid of the scaling on current magicka level. It makes no sense that the skill should scale on max spell damage + magicka, enemy's missing health, AND your current magicka level. That is also promoting the "sit back and beam spam" play style.
Also, dramatically reduce the damage scaling with the enemy's missing health between 25-50%. The curve is too steep. A ranged execute shouldn't be so dangerous at 30-40% health. Otherwise what's the point of half of your health pool?
The instant tick may also need to be looked at. RD currently operates just like Impale -- ranged instant execute burst -- except it also can't be dodged and has follow up ticks to continue finishing the target off. Shouldn't a channel ramp up in damage? That may be a bit much of a change.
I'd argue that thematically, NB should have the best execute in the game. I don't want them to become op or for templar to be underpowered, though, so meh... But as it stands, Impale feels super balanced as an 18m ranged burst 25% health execute, but it is completely outclassed by RD, which does everything it does but better.
Nightblade is instant and fast.Since your talking about an execute, why not have them all with similar mechanics. Zenimax could update all Execute Skills so that they are an instant cast as well as only give the execute bonus at 20% or below. If the skill is used on a player above 20% health then it should do damage but nothing close to an execute level. This way any execute skill that's used, works the same way. It will eliminate complaints about this skill being too OP or that skill needs work.
They are an execute after all, using it on someone with a lot of health should do minimal damage. They all need to be dodgeable as well.
Sorcerer is burst, it explodes at low health, it's like a time bomb in a way.
Templar is a beam that deals ticks that get stronger.
DK is...mmm.
Edited by KenaPKK on July 8, 2016 4:37PM1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least
This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.
Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.
The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.
To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).Edited by Zheg on July 8, 2016 4:39PM8 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Nifty2g,
You are a very good and knowledgeable player as evident by your achievements and previous discourse; but in this case you critique are based on a flawed premise. Four or five executes should kill you in quick fashion.“…1 or 2 are fine to handle but more often than not you are faced with about 4 or 5 beams at once,
there is no counter to that, it desyncs your health and as soon as you hit 40% health you are dead. …”
I suspect that your number of deaths in a PvP session is not going up; it is just that they are more ‘flashy’.
For what is worth, most of my deaths come from Ambush spam. Most of the execute abilities get ‘abused’. The recent correction to Wrecking Blow reduced its frequency (though Dizzying Swings crops up now {but not nearly as often}).
This post is completely lacking logic.1 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I don't understand your posts, for the most part you are agreeing with me but at the same time trying to argue with me on stuff I agree with. But no giving an icd hurts pve a little bit but balances it out in pvp (in non lag). Removing the damage I personally think weakens Templars quite a bit, pvp wise, remember I'm not talking too much about pve here, I'm not exactly the biased type and want to keep something that gives me good damage if it's not balanced somewhere else. Nerfing the damage though really isn't the good way to go about it
You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least
This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.
Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.
The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.
To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).
I dislike snipes too, but they're whatever, I also feel like gank builds should require more but that's not what the thread is about. And yes I also agree about sorcs#MOREORBS0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mechanic of channeled execute maybe fun in PvE but in PvP it not working. Maybe make it instant-cast 1 tick execute beam.
I would always prefer Blinding Flashes over Radiant DestructionEdited by Cinbri on July 8, 2016 5:09PM2 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I don't understand your posts, for the most part you are agreeing with me but at the same time trying to argue with me on stuff I agree with. But no giving an icd hurts pve a little bit but balances it out in pvp (in non lag). Removing the damage I personally think weakens Templars quite a bit, pvp wise, remember I'm not talking too much about pve here, I'm not exactly the biased type and want to keep something that gives me good damage if it's not balanced somewhere else. Nerfing the damage though really isn't the good way to go about it
You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least
This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.
Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.
The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.
To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).
I dislike snipes too, but they're whatever, I also feel like gank builds should require more but that's not what the thread is about. And yes I also agree about sorcs
You are trying to balance the skill when the game doesn't lag? That would be maybe 20% (if that) of pvp, so how is that even a modest priority, particularly in the face of the truly broken things in pvp that need attention?
You agree on sorcs and snipes, so where are the threads on those topics? If anything, given the sheer volume of threads on jesus beam and the complete lack of threads on those other two, wouldn't it have made more sense to create one on those topics? Hmm? There is an unprecedented hate for jesus beam and it's reached levels of absurdity rarely attained in ESO.
You identify people sitting back and spamming jesus beam as toxic gameplay that needs to be addressed. I brought up your own quoted pvp time because it ties into grasp of the actual issues in pvp and their priorities. Dodge rolling and avoiding all damage so you can heal up with the incredibly strong stam heals is toxic gameplay. Bombard and permaroot/snare is toxic gameplay. Poisons and the insane amount of debuffs are toxic gameplay. The overtuned damage and the prolific amounts of siege in the game is toxic gameplay. The incentives to run massive zergs and flock to a single objective is toxic gameplay. The capacity of a FC to instantly bring up 20 people with full stats is toxic gameplay. Ambush spam is toxic gameplay and has been around for longer than jesus beam has even been in the game. I could go on, but every single one of these things are more 'toxic' than jesus beam and higher priorities.5 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Again you are just extending an argument to something else asking questions that don't even relate to the topic at all. I'm not even going to bother answering any of that cause you already know the answers I'm going to give and how it really is just arguing for the sake of it, when we both already agree for the most part.
I don't understand your posts, for the most part you are agreeing with me but at the same time trying to argue with me on stuff I agree with. But no giving an icd hurts pve a little bit but balances it out in pvp (in non lag). Removing the damage I personally think weakens Templars quite a bit, pvp wise, remember I'm not talking too much about pve here, I'm not exactly the biased type and want to keep something that gives me good damage if it's not balanced somewhere else. Nerfing the damage though really isn't the good way to go about it
You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least
This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.
Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.
The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.
To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).
I dislike snipes too, but they're whatever, I also feel like gank builds should require more but that's not what the thread is about. And yes I also agree about sorcs
You are trying to balance the skill when the game doesn't lag? That would be maybe 20% (if that) of pvp, so how is that even a modest priority, particularly in the face of the truly broken things in pvp that need attention?
You agree on sorcs and snipes, so where are the threads on those topics? If anything, given the sheer volume of threads on jesus beam and the complete lack of threads on those other two, wouldn't it have made more sense to create one on those topics? Hmm? There is an unprecedented hate for jesus beam and it's reached levels of absurdity rarely attained in ESO.
You identify people sitting back and spamming jesus beam as toxic gameplay that needs to be addressed. I brought up your own quoted pvp time because it ties into grasp of the actual issues in pvp and their priorities. Dodge rolling and avoiding all damage so you can heal up with the incredibly strong stam heals is toxic gameplay. Bombard and permaroot/snare is toxic gameplay. Poisons and the insane amount of debuffs are toxic gameplay. The overtuned damage and the prolific amounts of siege in the game is toxic gameplay. The incentives to run massive zergs and flock to a single objective is toxic gameplay. The capacity of a FC to instantly bring up 20 people with full stats is toxic gameplay. Ambush spam is toxic gameplay and has been around for longer than jesus beam has even been in the game. I could go on, but every single one of these things are more 'toxic' than jesus beam and higher priorities.
#MOREORBS2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why can´t a skill behave differently depedning on if you´re in a PvP area or a PvE area? Say you´re in Cyrodil, there the RD skill has the internal cooldown of 0.5-1 sec (probably the best idea of a balance change I´ve heard on a RD thread on this forum), but in PvE zones it behaves like usual. Could this be possible?0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Again you are just extending an argument to something else asking questions that don't even relate to the topic at all. I'm not even going to bother answering any of that cause you already know the answers I'm going to give and how it really is just arguing for the sake of it, when we both already agree for the most part.
I don't understand your posts, for the most part you are agreeing with me but at the same time trying to argue with me on stuff I agree with. But no giving an icd hurts pve a little bit but balances it out in pvp (in non lag). Removing the damage I personally think weakens Templars quite a bit, pvp wise, remember I'm not talking too much about pve here, I'm not exactly the biased type and want to keep something that gives me good damage if it's not balanced somewhere else. Nerfing the damage though really isn't the good way to go about it
You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.
incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matterI start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU
FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.
On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.
On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.
On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.
The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.
Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.
As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that
As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least
This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.
Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.
The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.
To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).
I dislike snipes too, but they're whatever, I also feel like gank builds should require more but that's not what the thread is about. And yes I also agree about sorcs
You are trying to balance the skill when the game doesn't lag? That would be maybe 20% (if that) of pvp, so how is that even a modest priority, particularly in the face of the truly broken things in pvp that need attention?
You agree on sorcs and snipes, so where are the threads on those topics? If anything, given the sheer volume of threads on jesus beam and the complete lack of threads on those other two, wouldn't it have made more sense to create one on those topics? Hmm? There is an unprecedented hate for jesus beam and it's reached levels of absurdity rarely attained in ESO.
You identify people sitting back and spamming jesus beam as toxic gameplay that needs to be addressed. I brought up your own quoted pvp time because it ties into grasp of the actual issues in pvp and their priorities. Dodge rolling and avoiding all damage so you can heal up with the incredibly strong stam heals is toxic gameplay. Bombard and permaroot/snare is toxic gameplay. Poisons and the insane amount of debuffs are toxic gameplay. The overtuned damage and the prolific amounts of siege in the game is toxic gameplay. The incentives to run massive zergs and flock to a single objective is toxic gameplay. The capacity of a FC to instantly bring up 20 people with full stats is toxic gameplay. Ambush spam is toxic gameplay and has been around for longer than jesus beam has even been in the game. I could go on, but every single one of these things are more 'toxic' than jesus beam and higher priorities.
So then what, exactly, is the purpose of the thread? What is the purpose in creating yet another jesus beam thread? The only salient contribution this has done for the topic is suggest an internal cooldown - a point I feel I've given sufficient argument for why it's a bad idea and obsolete in the majority of pvp. I didn't even get into the fact that this would be the ONLY skill in the game with an internal cooldown, nor did I get into ZOS's coding capabilities and how they either wouldn't even be able to implement this or would just utterly break the skill altogether in the attempt. This one suggestion could have just been added to one of the dozens of other threads (if it wasn't already, I stopped reading many of them because it reached levels of ridiculousness even I couldn't handle).
I'd point out there there have probably been twice as many jesus beam threads as there have been on bombard, and someone would have to be willfully disingenuous to argue that bombard is less of a priority than jesus beam for the overall balance of pvp.5 -
Munavar✭✭✭@KenaPKK,
Oh so knowledgeable and of supreme being of logic, please identify which point(s) in the post are not logical?
1) That Nifty is not a good player?
2) That people should not die to 4 or 5 executes (while in execute range)
3) That I suspect that he is not dying any more times (count-wise) overall
4) Other abilities are not spammedDae - TM0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@KenaPKK,
Oh so knowledgeable and of supreme being of logic, please identify which point(s) in the post are not logical?
1) That Nifty is not a good player?
2) That people should not die to 4 or 5 executes (while in execute range)
3) That I suspect that he is not dying any more times (count-wise) overall
4) Other abilities are not spammed
I'm totally getting 4 or 5 killer's blades on my death recap man, like, all the time.2 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Should be dodgeable if it hits a target above 20%. Hits target 20% or lower, remains undodgeable.1 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I understand why people want his skill nerfed - it is REALLY powerful. The difficulty in doing so is that if you nerf any aspect of it, there is a real likelihood that it will become useless (again).
Because of the delay from button-press to damage output, nerfing the health % bonus makes it unlikely that you will be able to capitalize on a low health target - decent players will heal back up in an instant. RD is much more clunky to cast than most people realize.
If you nerf the range/distance, you pidgeon-hole most Templars into melee builds, which makes no sense because Dawn's Wrath is a ranged skill line.
My personal preference for a solution is to remove it and replace it with a nice AoE CC or re-positioning skill. Then, make Aurora Javelin the class magicka execute. Here's a tooltip example:
Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength, dealing X Magic damage, stunning them for 1.8 seconds, and knocking them back 5 meters.
Deals up to 40% additional damage based on the distance the spear travels and an additional Y% against targets below 30% health.
I mean, it is godlike strength after all...
3 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭By biggest issue with RD is the poor gameplay it promotes. Even a snipe spammer has to consider whether the target is a DK.
I would like to see the range of RD reduced so that its shortcoming--that it is a channel--is always relevant. Players must be forced to consider whether it is wise to use RD before doing so.
Edited by zyk on July 8, 2016 5:57PM2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sharee I never said that you see that in the recap (seeing that you will see Nightblade combos). I am saying IF 4 or 5 Nightblades DID their combos at the same time a player would die.
But they don't.
Let me put it this way: Until the amount of all the various execute skills you commonly see on your death recap is roughly the same, something somewhere is unbalanced.0 -
Cryhavoc✭✭✭I understand why people want his skill nerfed - it is REALLY powerful. The difficulty in doing so is that if you nerf any aspect of it, there is a real likelihood that it will become useless (again).
Because of the delay from button-press to damage output, nerfing the health % bonus makes it unlikely that you will be able to capitalize on a low health target - decent players will heal back up in an instant. RD is much more clunky to cast than most people realize.
If you nerf the range/distance, you pidgeon-hole most Templars into melee builds, which makes no sense because Dawn's Wrath is a ranged skill line.
My personal preference for a solution is to remove it and replace it with a nice AoE CC or re-positioning skill. Then, make Aurora Javelin the class magicka execute. Here's a tooltip example:
Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength, dealing X Magic damage, stunning them for 1.8 seconds, and knocking them back 5 meters.
Deals up to 40% additional damage based on the distance the spear travels and an additional Y% against targets below 30% health.
I mean, it is godlike strength after all...
I love this. Turn RD into Blinding Flashes, and Javelin an execute.
Done.
PS. Except that Javelin is reflectable...Edited by Cryhavoc on July 8, 2016 6:11PM0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I understand why people want his skill nerfed - it is REALLY powerful. The difficulty in doing so is that if you nerf any aspect of it, there is a real likelihood that it will become useless (again).
Because of the delay from button-press to damage output, nerfing the health % bonus makes it unlikely that you will be able to capitalize on a low health target - decent players will heal back up in an instant. RD is much more clunky to cast than most people realize.
If you nerf the range/distance, you pidgeon-hole most Templars into melee builds, which makes no sense because Dawn's Wrath is a ranged skill line.
My personal preference for a solution is to remove it and replace it with a nice AoE CC or re-positioning skill. Then, make Aurora Javelin the class magicka execute. Here's a tooltip example:
Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength, dealing X Magic damage, stunning them for 1.8 seconds, and knocking them back 5 meters.
Deals up to 40% additional damage based on the distance the spear travels and an additional Y% against targets below 30% health.
I mean, it is godlike strength after all...
I'd be ok with that. Javelin always felt like it should be the execute.0 -
blabafat✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've said this before, and I'm saying it again.
Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together
- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable
If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.
Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.Fire Cloak - VR12 DK - Nord - EP
Ámeer - VR15 Templar - Imperial - AD
The Mágician - VR16 Templar - Imperial DC
Magíc - VR16 DK - Dark Elf - DC
Àmeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - DC
ámeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - AD
Æ ámeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - EP
Ameer Flow - Level 34 Nightblade - High Elf - EP
Youtube:
https://youtube.com/channel/UCFNmXCgmTVo-T-p1BIVLxbQ6 -
Munavar✭✭✭If they do or do not focus as a group is not relevant to the point of the statement being logical. The statement boils down to 4 or 5 players doing a 'massive' amount of damage in a short amount of time on a player; said player will not survive.
I have already noted (above) that the ability makes it easier (visually) for 'groups' to focus damage.
Everyone's recap is different. I do not track mine that closely, but Ambush is my person bane of an execute. Probably because it is enough to finish me off before a Templar notices my low health. Is it time to climb on the soap box and call for a nerf there?
The crux of this specific thread started with a weak premise of not being able to survive 4 or 5 executes at the same time (while in execute range).
For all the 1v1 \ dual based players, how many times have you died to this skill in that setting? This is not to say when you are nipping at the edges of the 'zerg' and it turns to 'protect' one of its own. I mean in your structured 'go out in the field and fight your friends'. Do other executes get used in that setting?Dae - TM2 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Should be dodgeable if it hits a target above 20%. Hits target 20% or lower, remains undodgeable.
That's actually not a bad idea.
Here's another one. Instead of messing with RD, make DF more usable and not such a delay between hitting the button and hitting the target. Between the cast time and the travel time it takes about 3 seconds to hit the target. Think of what you can do in 3 seconds in this game.
You will see people stop using RD on full health opponents without even having to touch RD.2 -
LeifErickson✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skimming through the replies to this discussion, I noticed "instant tick" was said. I'm not sure if this is meant to be taken literally, but radiant has no "instant tick." By that I mean radiant does not start doing damage as soon as you cast it. I tested this yesterday by spamming bash before a templar casted radiant. When the radiant was casted, the bash interrupted the cast and I took no damage.
However, the damage seems to come ALMOST instantly from when you start the cast. Unless you purposely put yourself in execute range against a templar to bait the radiant and bash spam to stop the cast, the first tick comes so fast that it is super hard to avoid.1 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've said this before, and I'm saying it again.
Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together
- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable
If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.
Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.
I'd be happy with the same range as Invigorating Drain from the Vampire skill line. Keep the damage but at least then it's bashable.PC EU1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the argument that RD doesn't need to be undodgeable because sweeps are undodgeable is asinine. A clunky class like Temp is hard pressed to get all 4 hits out of a sweep on any good player, and that's not even considering roots that force you to jab in one direction, snares, etc.
We are in a stamina meta right now, there is no need to nerf any magicka skills for the time being.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0
https://youtu.be/XrUEjSTIK3I