Phinix1 wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Unfortunately, this topic won't be ever answered by ZOS, because they trust their software.

Like I said, follow the appeal process. If you were legit banned with no reason you have nothing to fear. They will do an investigation and unban you.

Posting on the forums about disciplinary actions is against the TOS. Not sure why you would expect them to respond here as opposed to following the support process available to you.

Hope you are unbanned if you are innocent.

My account only was suspended for 72 hours on Friday too right before the weekends. And there were no people who could investigate it, there were only automated responses. Then no responses at all. I wish you good luck and don't experience it yourself.

Also I disagree about posting on forums about this issue. People should see how real hackers are freely playing the game with their "hardly" earned MSA weapons, and ZOS don't do anything about it. Instead they are busy with their amazing anti cheat system which can detect cheaters... But what's the point if all cheaters continue to play and to have all the stuff they got by cheating?

Phinix1 wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

...certain skills, your timing and possible lags at the "right moment" decide if you are getting banned...

Sounds highly dubious to me.

Appeal the ban with the support process available. Wait for them to do an investigation. If you are innocent, get unbanned. Simple.

Nothing is accomplished by posting about disciplinary actions on the forum other than to try and whip the community into a fervor without the possibility of actual evidence, which is destructive not constructive.

What is your contribution, you might should start being constructive instead being ignorant in this matter.
You have no clue what is going on didn't follow corresponding threads regarding cheating and exploits , VMA , speed etc..

Did you help to find bugs that trigger the cheat detection tool and send them to ZOS, did you participate on constructive discussions that are dealing with the problems that would help false positives customers on a long run, did you actually do anything that tries to find solutions to improve this game as member of this community? Imo you are one of the most ignorant consumers out there that doesn't care about anything as long you don't run into a problem by your self.

False positives happen.

But you obviously don't care about them as long it's not you ...

Turn it up.

The amount of people still cheating/hacking is stupidly ridiculous. Clearly the current set up isn't catching them.

Well. ZoS is getting rid of hardcore players which don't exist to begin with in this game according to Firor.

For one casual Tamriel!

Another "speed hacking" wave? Grief.... Luckily I've not been flagged down this time, but then again, I've not dared to even log my StamSorc since the last incident, not until this farce is sorted out. Shame too, I was really enjoying Fengrush's Supernaut build too, but I guess super-speed+gapcloser+massive latency+ half-assed detection system does not a good game make.

GG ZoS, GG once more, your incompetence pot is growing fuller each passing day.
I feel for those who were legitimately affected, again...

P.S.
Is it just me or has this happened on Friday, again? Where people cannot appeal because nobody is in the office and by the time they come back, their suspension will be lifted anyway without any review and closed.

Where do these people take their "Tw@" lessons? My patience with this company is slowly coming to an end...

P.P.S.
And no, you can't have my stuff

Phinix1 wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

So you are saying those who have legitimately documented their biggest prowesses might have triggered the anti-cheat system doing what? Speed hacking to get more flowers?

The problem here is making the assumption that it MUST be their youtube prowess that got them banned. That is a completely baseless assumption born of one's on personal bias.

The fact is we have NO KNOWLEDGE of why they were banned. They could be posting legit videos on their "prowess" at one moment, then firing up their cheat engine in the next to get some lols in Cyrodiil "off the record."

There is no way we could know, so assuming either way is pointless. That is what I'm saying. Let them appeal, let ZOS investigate the logs. But don't come on the forums and start a conspiracy theory about ZOS auto-banning skilled people without any evidence.

It just serves no constructive purpose.

You are right, we couldn't be certain of that but considering some false positives have been triggered on similar situations is not a risky assumption at all to say that's what's probably happening here again.

So here is the purpose, raise awerness to the community that the system is not accurate enough before more and more legitimate players' reputation gets tainted and to Zos, who has to know that the system is indeed not good enough, and that we still are waiting for some answers about certain unbanned players.

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

And why would we assume that the same people who review logs carefully enough to unban known cheaters would be able to correctly identify who is and who isn't cheating? We have no way of knowing that ZOS will correctly deal with every case, but we have every reason to believe that there will be cases that are dealt with in an unsatisfactory way.

For just that reason, because we don't know. We DO know they log everything. The evidence IS there. People that were flagged as false-positives DO get unbanned. We DO know that much.

Occam's Razor dictates the simplest explanation tends to be the right one. I tend to assume either some people get flagged as false positives which happens even with world class antivirus programs like Norton and McAfee, and will be unbanned after appeal like others, or that they actually were cheating.

I don't think it is very rational to automatically assume that ZOS has some personal Dr. Evil agenda to maliciously ban "top performers" without cause, no.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It's ok that an innocent person occasionally gets wrongfully convicted. That's what I got from this.

False positives happen. No security software in the world is free of them. Sorry if that is confusing to you.

Of course, false positives happen. But saying you would rather occasional people be banned by mistake as opposed to a casual stance on the matter is like using a shotgun to kill a fly. You launch a pile of projectiles at the fly, maybe kill a couple other bugs in the process, and still miss the fly. I am not confused. I'm sure you wouldn't be ok with it if you were one of the people mistakenly banned.

But the problem is hardly akin to a fly so the analogy is flawed. It is more like a plague of locusts where 1 in 5 people in PVP are blatantly resource hacking with cheat engine.

Then take Feng Rush's video where he points out how people are being smart about it, only hacking a LITTLE more resource regen, a LITTLE more ultimate, thinking they will fly under the radar of the detection if they blame it on "weird badly timed lag" or whatever I read earlier. It is a HUGE problem that is destroying the game for honorable customers and ZOS is right to come down hard.

I am sure I will be the target of some petty mass-report campaign just for having the integrity to point out that bashing ZOS when there is no actual evidence presented here is inappropriate, since I'm not about to hide my account name in my sig just because people can't take different points of view with a grain of salt and need to make people their mortal enemy as if I was attacking them or something.

I mean did you read that hateful vitriol spewed at me a couple posts back? Seriously, like wow.

If people want to stoop to that level just because they can't take someone disagreeing with them, oh well. I mean never mind all the work on addons I do for these people.

I agree cheaters should be punished harshly. But they need to tweak the system as not to cast a net so wide you catch the honest players too. If that is indeed what's happening. People can make all sorts of videos of honest runs and then cheat while not making a video. A few videos of legit runs is not evidence that every run is legit.

damn you are so right, I think that all top-100 VMA scores are done with cheats, and since I'm the only one who has all my best runs recorded and published, I demand to remove all scores from leaderboards but mine until I get 100% evidence they all are legit.

When you watch vma videos and have finished vma with all classes (and with a stamina build) like i did you see those "innocence" proof videos with other eyes. There are a few great players where im pretty sure their video is fairplay. But especially one person cheats quite blatantly modifying his health regen values in the video and still screams around hes innocent while in theory everyone can see his dirty fingers. In short: dont defend people you dont know. They might be sociopathic liars.

Tandor wrote: »

Firm action needs to be taken against cheaters and exploiters, and as for who's innocent and who's guilty I'll take a developer's data log over an unknown friend's commendation of someone else I don't know, or a potentially doctored video or screenshot that may in any event have no bearing on the reason for the ban any day of the week, just as long as there's an effective notification and appeal system for all account disciplinary matters.

Thanks for your opinion and contribution to the topic, even though you don't know anyone we are talking about and not aware of the situtation at all.

inb4 topic is closed again because it tuned unconstructive... but I don't know what @asneakybanana expected to see here

Conclusion of this thread:

- Innocent ppl getting banned
- Cheat Engine abusers getting unbanned

gf

Phinix1 wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

And why would we assume that the same people who review logs carefully enough to unban known cheaters would be able to correctly identify who is and who isn't cheating? We have no way of knowing that ZOS will correctly deal with every case, but we have every reason to believe that there will be cases that are dealt with in an unsatisfactory way.

For just that reason, because we don't know. We DO know they log everything. The evidence IS there. People that were flagged as false-positives DO get unbanned. We DO know that much.

Occam's Razor dictates the simplest explanation tends to be the right one. I tend to assume either some people get flagged as false positives which happens even with world class antivirus programs like Norton and McAfee, and will be unbanned after appeal like others, or that they actually were cheating.

I don't think it is very rational to automatically assume that ZOS has some personal Dr. Evil agenda to maliciously ban "top performers" without cause, no.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It's ok that an innocent person occasionally gets wrongfully convicted. That's what I got from this.

False positives happen. No security software in the world is free of them. Sorry if that is confusing to you.

Of course, false positives happen. But saying you would rather occasional people be banned by mistake as opposed to a casual stance on the matter is like using a shotgun to kill a fly. You launch a pile of projectiles at the fly, maybe kill a couple other bugs in the process, and still miss the fly. I am not confused. I'm sure you wouldn't be ok with it if you were one of the people mistakenly banned.

But the problem is hardly akin to a fly so the analogy is flawed. It is more like a plague of locusts where 1 in 5 people in PVP are blatantly resource hacking with cheat engine.

Then take Feng Rush's video where he points out how people are being smart about it, only hacking a LITTLE more resource regen, a LITTLE more ultimate, thinking they will fly under the radar of the detection if they blame it on "weird badly timed lag" or whatever I read earlier. It is a HUGE problem that is destroying the game for honorable customers and ZOS is right to come down hard.

I am sure I will be the target of some petty mass-report campaign just for having the integrity to point out that bashing ZOS when there is no actual evidence presented here is inappropriate, since I'm not about to hide my account name in my sig just because people can't take different points of view with a grain of salt and need to make people their mortal enemy as if I was attacking them or something.

I mean did you read that hateful vitriol spewed at me a couple posts back? Seriously, like wow.

If people want to stoop to that level just because they can't take someone disagreeing with them, oh well. I mean never mind all the work on addons I do for these people.

1 in 5? Care to back up that claim with some data or facts?

asneakybanana wrote: »

Hashtag_ wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Function wrote: »

It's really sad when it has come to the point where people are scared to activate their speed buffs in fear that they will get auto banned. ZoS, it was very unwise to set your auto ban parameters so low when you clearly have no idea what speed/damage/etc. values are actually possible.. seek council from people who do.

I would not trust anyone who came to the forum to complain that the auto-ban system needed to be turned down because they, or anyone they knew, was caught by it. Period.

Rethink your post, the person banned has videos of all his runs

I stand by what I said.

Reason: I don't know these people. The evidence they present can be done so in a manner that hides that they are cheating.

Do you know the people at ZOS in charge of the ban system? Do you have evidence these people were cheating? How can you make these assumptions about the banned but not about the banners?

Totally agree with that. ZoS isnt doing an innocent until proven guilty type judgement they are doing a guilty until proven innocent which is absolutely wrong and should be reviewed.

Disregarding the fact that the auto-ban system makes mistakes (I don't think anyone in this entire thread seriously disagrees on that), ZOS is not adopting a guilty-until-proven innocent system, if they had, everyone'd be banned until we'd have passed some test that'd sufficiently prove to them we're not going to cheat. An obviously impossible system that does not exist.


The "innocent until proven guilty" phrase is only valid in typically constitutional (or similarly legally structured) countries, where people have rights and the executive office cannot violate these rights without evidence of crime. Barring the fact that you don't have those rights in an agreement with Zenimax (really, read the TOS and the EULA some time, the only real power you have is voting with your wallet), these constitutional legal systems generally also have the ability to detain criminals for a short time-span on suspicion of a crime, after which typically a court case follows, during which the suspect (depending on severity of crime and some other factors) is still held in custody, even though he is not proven guilty.

So you are wrong here in two different ways. The first is that you don't have the rights your expression is based on. The second is that even in places where you do have these rights, these places have legal systems very similar to what ZOS is using: temporary custody until a situation is investigated and ruled upon. And just like in real life criminal cases, the suspect has to defend himself.

Temporary bans suck, obviously. Being falsely accused sucks, obviously. However it's important to remember (for everyone on each side of this debate) that temporarily banned people under the auto-ban system are just suspects, they are not proven guilty.