ESO Plus Subscribers - yes everyone we do pay for things

CherryCake · June 2016

rootimus wrote: »

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Those people have far bigger problems than a video game and the associated cost of internet access from a provider that doesn't shaft them with data caps that prevent them from downloading ESO expansions, or give them such a terrible connection that the game is playable.

Of course, but for example many poor families can still have internet out of necessity (for school for example) or packs with a phone included, and given the technology nowadays, the internet isnt as bad and expensive as it was 10 years ago, so they can still play ESO even on a cheaper side of internet. And paying an internet provider I would say its faaaaar more important than paying an online subscription at a game, but thats just my unpopular opinion...

And honestly...I dont wish on any of you to ever have to deal with poverty, but sometimes there are people that struggle much more than you do for less, and you cannot blame those people for wanting to play a game once in a while in a life that is full of struggles. But what do I know...empathy is something long lost in our society and there are plenty of people that think they are holier than anyone because they have their life together now. Anything can happen in life. You are not always in control.

Acrolas · June 2016

Subscriptions won't keep ZOS employees from jumping ship at a better offer or on their own whim. Which will eventually happen. My endgame is looking at the end of the game, and whether I trust anyone at ZOS to be loyal until the very last day.

I don't see it. It's easy to maintain the hardware. I know at least one game still operating because cheaters, although banned, pumped millions of dollars of microtransactions into it. It's a terrible game but they're not hurting for money. They're not pumping millions of dollars into the game, either. They transferred most of the surplus to another division who then reported it as miscellaneous income.

Money is usually not the problem. People are.

I won't want to be that guy in a few years who begs for some sort of content when half of the team quietly defected to other companies. I know what video game loyalty gets me. A little bit of good, followed by a whole lot of silence. Which would be all right if this were a tangible asset I could split up and resell. But I don't own any of this. It's a sunk cost. $15 in a savings account or a stock will give me more satisfaction in 20 years than this game will.

They forced you into a subscription for a base game with very little post-50 content.
They forced you into a subscription to make you play the base game two more times when they failed on their planned new content schedule.
They forced you into a subscription for Craglorn.

The subscription era was a mess. You spent a lot of money for nothing.
We should be moving past that mentality. No all-in systems. You pay for what you want and you skip what you don't want.
Instead, they're experimenting as much with the sub as they are with the game. No commitment to form. No consistency.

That's my issue. Over two years and a few months, there's been very little rapport and goodwill to come out of ZOS. They let their long-time fans with indifferent wallets fight their battles for them.

So tell me, how is my sub fee going to keep one or two important team members from walking away from their jobs in 2017 just because they want to work on something else? My sub makes no such guarantee. My sub doesn't change human nature. But I do I guarantee the first guy who brags on LinkedIn about increasing sub revenue is the first person who looks for a better job with that new resume leverage. That's just how this industry works.

That's why a lot of people only spend small amounts of money at a time. The payment made today does not promise a product tomorrow or next month or next year, no matter how many payments there are. That's just how it is, and why I'll never be a blind supporter of anything.

Lysette · June 2016

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Kalifas wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

No owning the DLC or not is relevant. If you subscribe and never buy it, you are renting and can't use it. But if you rent and use the money you saved, the money ZoS gave you cash back on(Crowns) to buy the DLC. You could play the DLC anytime you wanted to, for the brief hiatus you take if you decided to take one. You didn't have to lift one finger to earn that cash back. You didn't have to buy a crown pack separate so you are not buying it twice with money you worked for.

The DLC buyer has to buy that with no cash back and they can't step foot in the DLC until they do.

I could make 15 dollars singing on the street for 15 minutes. The point is irrelevant, the point is, is the game worth paying money for over 12 months and possibly cutting into your time to play other games? With subscription based games declining in popularity, I would say the masses say no. Hence the sub and unsub with each expansion commences.

See I can play about 40hr/month in average - currently I can play more, normally a lot less. And I play 2 subscription games and as well some single player games - neverthess it is worth for me to subscribe and know, when I will have actually time to play it, I will have premium content available which makes my lmited time worthwhile - to have to bother with minor quality would be a waste of my limited time. That is why I subscribe, even I do not play it that much at all.

That sounds awesome. I used to subscribe to two games a year back in the 360/ps3 days. But prices are going up, I have more bills to pay, less time to play games in general, 4k is becoming a thing, there is the rumor of new consoles and hundreds of games coming out, and I am trying to save for a nicer house.

I don't need to have more monthly bills to manage so I would appreciate a game that respects my time and doesn't demand a yearly investment to enjoy the full quality experience. This is why I like the DLC buy to play approach normally. It allows me to pick and choose the content I enjoy versus making me feel rushed or obligated to pay for a whole package even though I don't care for a good amount of things a game brings to the table and don't have enough time to get my money's worth playing a game all year.

In the end what counts is, that you were having a good time - and ESO is quite good entertainment for not that much money, if you compare it to other real world activities. I like flying aricraft for example - starting the turbine of my helicopter costs me far more than the subscription for a month - that is an activity which brings me great fun, but it costs around 1000 dollar per hour including maintenance and interest. So why would I even bother with 15 bucks per month?

VodkaVixen1979 · June 2016

Pretty sure the high horse, holier than thou attitude is a subbed thing. You know, because you're the ones keeping the lights on, supporting the game and what not. The rest of us dirtbags only use Monopoly money to buy our crowns.....

Your post does nothing but flame the sub vs. b2p war. ZOS created this monster by giving people options. Now subbers think their option is superior.

Some subbers hop on and play for a month when dlc drops, then cancel. Reliable revenue stream my arse. We all pay money....we all support the game. Get over yourselves. I don't give a damn about your perks, I get along just fine. It is the attitude of subbers that just needs adjusting. You are not the end all be all you think you are.

Lysette · June 2016

Cazzy wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

rootimus wrote: »

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Those people have far bigger problems than a video game and the associated cost of internet access from a provider that doesn't shaft them with data caps that prevent them from downloading ESO expansions, or give them such a terrible connection that the game is playable.

Which is why I said, they should probably not play games but rather care to get their lives in order. But this is not a popular idea, as it seems, to have your life in order, so that 15 bucks for something becomes a non-issue.

My life is in order. I can't change my health issues, nor cure them. I still pay a sub as it's what keeps me going but I can't always do it when I have a bad month. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind not having benefits when I can't pay, i just wanted to clarify that everyone has different reasons for paying/not paying.

Ok Cazzy, sorry that you have to deal with that - maybe I am just used to health care being fully covered by insurance, which is standard in europe. So I did not think about, that in some countries this is not that way.

Lysette · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Subscriptions won't keep ZOS employees from jumping ship at a better offer or on their own whim. Which will eventually happen. My endgame is looking at the end of the game, and whether I trust anyone at ZOS to be loyal until the very last day.

I don't see it. It's easy to maintain the hardware. I know at least one game still operating because cheaters, although banned, pumped millions of dollars of microtransactions into it. It's a terrible game but they're not hurting for money. They're not pumping millions of dollars into the game, either. They transferred most of the surplus to another division who then reported it as miscellaneous income.

Money is usually not the problem. People are.

I won't want to be that guy in a few years who begs for some sort of content when half of the team quietly defected to other companies. I know what video game loyalty gets me. A little bit of good, followed by a whole lot of silence. Which would be all right if this were a tangible asset I could split up and resell. But I don't own any of this. It's a sunk cost. $15 in a savings account or a stock will give me more satisfaction in 20 years than this game will.

They forced you into a subscription for a base game with very little post-50 content.
They forced you into a subscription to make you play the base game two more times when they failed on their planned new content schedule.
They forced you into a subscription for Craglorn.

The subscription era was a mess. You spent a lot of money for nothing.
We should be moving past that mentality. No all-in systems. You pay for what you want and you skip what you don't want.
Instead, they're experimenting as much with the sub as they are with the game. No commitment to form. No consistency.

That's my issue. Over two years and a few months, there's been very little rapport and goodwill to come out of ZOS. They let their long-time fans with indifferent wallets fight their battles for them.

So tell me, how is my sub fee going to keep one or two important team members from walking away from their jobs in 2017 just because they want to work on something else? My sub makes no such guarantee. My sub doesn't change human nature. But I do I guarantee the first guy who brags on LinkedIn about increasing sub revenue is the first person who looks for a better job with that new resume leverage. That's just how this industry works.

That's why a lot of people only spend small amounts of money at a time. The payment made today does not promise a product tomorrow or next month or next year, no matter how many payments there are. That's just how it is, and why I'll never be a blind supporter of anything.

Most people are not leveling up from 1-50 in weeks - it takes them months ore even more than year - casual players with not that much time to spend on gaming at all. So they do not have these problems with missing end game content, because it is unlikely that they will ever get there before something else in their lives becomes more important.

rootimus · June 2016

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

But what do I know...empathy is something long lost in our society

Can't argue with that. :-(

rootimus · June 2016

VodkaVixen1979 wrote: »

Pretty sure the high horse, holier than thou attitude is a subbed thing.

No, it's a jackass thing. We have subscribers and non-subscribers in this game that fall into that catagory, just like with pretty much anything in life.

Tekyn · June 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

You are putting too much value on the crafting bags while reacting from your emotions instead of logic. No offense intended.

I'll pay my sub either way, and this issue doesn't directly affect me. What bugs me is people just sweeping other peoples' concerns under the rug because they don't feel affected by them. Things like this are legitimate issues because you should be enticed into buying a sub, not strong-armed. As I said before, the value of the crafting bag depends on the player using it. For some it's worthless. For others it's the best thing in the entire game. Having it be sub-only affects different people differently.

imnotanother wrote: »

I am a subscriber (and buy crowns occasionally) so I have the crafting bag. Technically I pay $15 a month for it but if I cancelled my sub, I would no longer access it. Should I have the right to own it since I subbed for 12 months? Since I bought all DLCs, should it be mine?

No one said that, and you're just putting words in others' mouths to redirect the argument. If you buy all of the DLC and cancel your sub, you DO keep access to them. The crafting bag isn't like the XP bonus. It's game content. Game content should not require a sub. I'm not saying it should be free. I'm saying it should be available.

imnotanother wrote: »

Now think in terms of a CFO. How are you going to pay the overhead (wages, rent, taxes, advertising, development, etc) if you offer a one time purchase of a product? Would that customer return?

The same way any business that sells non-consumable items does. By providing new products that customers consider worth paying their money for. That's what content like the DLCs is for. One way or another, they get money for people accessing the DLC. Either all at once, or bit by bit from a sub.

[Deleted User] · June 2016

Hello everyone,

This message is to inform you that we've felt it necessary to close this thread. The reason being the original post was less than constructive, and a bit insulting. For future threads, please be sure to avoid creating it with a topic that may incite your fellow forum members, as this is agaisnt the Forum Rules. Also there are a plethora of threads around this subject, we suggest discussing this on an already created Crafting Bag thread.

Thank you for understanding.