ESO Plus Subscribers - yes everyone we do pay for things

imnotanother · June 2016

How many people arguing about this are involved in business? Have you ever made a business plan? Do you know what a Profit and Loss report is and why it is used for? Have you ever had to present your market projections to investors?

I am a business owner (capitalist) that deals with these concepts daily. A subscriber is considered a returning customer/account.
A common business philosophy is to "maintain existing customers while creating new ones."

When a player buys crowns on impulse, they are a shopper. As the business, you need to draw (market) the shopper in so they will continue to return again and again (account/ subscriber)

Now a business will offer their products in ways to get these shoppers to come back
Month after month. Perks or incentives they are called.

You can continue to use the business as a regular consumer and buy the products. At the same time, you can join a membership (for a fee) and receive the same service with perks. It makes the customer feel valued and important (and they are indeed)

Now as a business owner, every customer in important to me, but the ones that are loyal and consistent (aka spend their money regularly) are my top priority compared to the person "browsing." I want to maintain them as a customer because they are paying my overhead/salary.

Not sure if the problem understanding this view is due to economic differences between players (socialism vs capitalism) or just simple ignorance of basic business fundamentals.

rootimus · June 2016

Towerdragon wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it being unlocked in the crown store just price it accordingly 5000 to 10,000 crowns

At which point I cancel my subscription and buy the bag with the crowns they gave me for subscribing. If they wanted to sell 10 bag slots for 99 cents (cash, not crowns), I'd be fine with that. If they wanted to sell a variation of the crafting bag that could hold ~1,000 of each item for $2.99 and then additional expansions for it for 99 cents, I'd be fine with that, too. After all, the crown store is supposed to be for micro-transactions.

With sensible pricing like that, I'd be fine continuing to subscibe to get the better deal and non-subscribers wouldn't get screwed financially. Hell, if I could get a mount for less than a dollar or unlock it somehow in the game as a subscriber, I'd probably still buy a particularly cool one (and any I wanted that were tied to difficult stuff, like killing someone in PvP :P).

Lightninvash · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

clayandaudrey_ESO · June 2016

I am still not sure how people think that subscribing is secured income when subs can be canceled at any time. Like I said earlier unless someone is on the unheard of mortgage plan where you are committed 15 or 30 years how is any sub that can cancel on a whim considered secured income?

CherryCake · June 2016

@Lightninvash

Korozenn · June 2016

No one can on either side of the coin in this "debate" (if you even call it that; I see more "but he/she said" than anything else) should be telling others how they should choose to enjoy the game or make a purchase. While we could always give people the information that they need if they want to argue about a matter of logistics behind which option works for different types of people and playstyles, we can't just throw a blanket on everyone and expect them all to respond amicably.

The truth of the matter is that what works for us may not work for them, in their eyes. People should always be entitled to their own opinions.

Now, when it comes to things that 'can't' be argued, it's stuff like pricing mechanisms. No one can say (as an example) that purchasing DLC is more "worth it" (key word: worth) than it would be to subscribe as an ESO Plus member. At the same time, no one should be ridiculing others for which path they decide to choose, whether or not they are an ESO Plus member, because ZeniMax Online Studios gives everyone the choice of either a) buying the game and playing it freely at your own leisure, b) subscribing to the game to receive ESO Plus benefits, and/or c) purchasing Crowns from the Crown Store for DLC, items, and upgrades.

The reason for this is because...

According to the ToS (which I highly recommend everyone should at least skim through for online games), everyone is only licensed to play the game regardless of how you purchased it, so you will never actually 'own' the DLC. When the servers are shutdown at the end of the game's lifespan, your access to the game is too.
The price of buying Crowns separately in-game to purchase DLC is more than it would be otherwise to just get a six-month sub that unlocks all of the DLC for you nowadays, and it'll just get more-and-more expensive the more DLC comes out on top of that to buy the Crowns separately. This falls into the "bundle" mentality of marketing, and it is a proven method that works and gets people to stay invested in your games.
The sheer load of Crowns you get from purchasing a six-month sub (9,000 Crowns) compounded on top of access to all DLC while an ESO Plus subscriber, Craft Bag, 10% Increased Gold, Experience, Inspiration, and 10% Reduced Research Times makes the loyalty subscription the better-priced option.

Note: It's the better-priced option to get an ESO Plus sub as you get more bang for your buck, but it's not the only one. People are free to choose as they please how they want to experience The Elder Scrolls Online, and it's up to them whether or not they feel they'll be active enough to honestly warrant a subscription over buying Crowns from the Crown Store, too. At the end of the day, people have their own personal lives to attend to and sometimes are in situations where a subscription to anything is completely out of the question, too.

I'm an ESO Plus sub, and I don't believe people deserve the ridicule they get when they're not a sub. It's terrible to see people complain about because I can see where people are coming from in regards to feeling like they're not getting their money's worth when they 'do' buy Crowns separately, and I think those people should be heard out from ZeniMax.

Lysette · June 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

imnotanother · June 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

I am still not sure how people think that subscribing is secured income when subs can be canceled at any time. Like I said earlier unless someone is on the unheard of mortgage plan where you are committed 15 or 30 years how is any sub that can cancel on a whim considered secured income?

It is not a guarantee but an estimate. Plus there are 6 month an I think 12 month packs to buy.

Example: you have 10,000 players total. 5,000 spent $15 last month as subscribers. 4,000 spent $15 on a DLC( released quarterly) and 1,000 spent nothing.
In your projections you would calculate that the 5,000 will most likely sub again but the other 5,000 could spend $0 since there is not any new content for 2-3 months.
You maintain the 5,000 subs by giving them perks. (Giving a feeling of value/ appreciation)

Kalifas · June 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

And it works reverse. When you buy a dlc you are buying that house, the same house the other guy was renting before. Mr.Firor said it himself, that he noticed most people play mmos in spurts and come back at exciting moments, rinse and repeat. Who buys a house in sections and loses a bedroom or everytime they repaint it? When has a rental house had a 6000 square foot wide closet but it shrinks down to 10 square feet when you buy the house?

So why are they locking major features behind the monthly paywall if they expect people to come and go?

Very moving post LightninVash. :'(

/slow clap

Waffennacht · June 2016

I do not subscribe, I have in the past, subscribers do deserve something or else it just becomes a payment plan for content.

Instead of dropping 50ish bucks at once, you just do 15ish a month...

And logically, if you had subscribed day one, you would have paid far more than the cost of dlcs, making subscribers incentives encourages long term subscription (aka paying more than the actual price.)

Example: what is the cost of a crafting bag? 15 bucks a month, sure you get other stuff too, but you better have that money for access. I don't need a bag that badly, but people should get stuff like that.

Life convenience items are cool, no p2w in that.

NordSwordnBoard · June 2016

This argument boils down to instant gratification. The black panther mount is a perfect example of subs being "forced" into buying crowns because they weren't given enough notice to save up monthly sum for that big price tag. This was intentional.

The only way to get through to the sellers here is to not buy something you think is overpriced. Thats it. If you buy it, but come here and complain about the price its a moot point isnt it?

Also, you can buy the base game for about $15-$20 new from a local store. A game that was previously $50-$60. Thats like 80% of the content right there.

They will continue to get revenue from both subs and crown buyers. The more base games they can cheaply put in buyers hands the better to tempt those buyers with additional purchases or subs down the line.

This is working for the sellers and they will not change the model until you speak with your wallets and not your keyboards.

Towerdragon · June 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

I am still not sure how people think that subscribing is secured income when subs can be canceled at any time. Like I said earlier unless someone is on the unheard of mortgage plan where you are committed 15 or 30 years how is any sub that can cancel on a whim considered secured income?

Because if you buy a sub in 3-6 month increments then they have your money for those months period it's in investmen. the point is to keep the people who are sub and get new people to sub not a hard business model

Neirymn · June 2016

It looks like we're deciding who's better than whom: players who buy crowns, subscribe, subscribe and buy crowns... "I spent a lot more money than you, I have a bigger *ahem* cooler costume than you..."

In the end, ZOS decide the options that are available to us and it's up to us to choose how we'd like to spend our money or not. As long as we're happy with the choice we made, everything is fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qkkni7QNg

I'd love that someone makes a similar video with ESO. x)

Kalifas · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

No owning the DLC or not is relevant. If you subscribe and never buy it, you are renting and can't use it. But if you rent and use the money you saved, the money ZoS gave you cash back on(Crowns) to buy the DLC. You could play the DLC anytime you wanted to, for the brief hiatus you take if you decided to take one. You didn't have to lift one finger to earn that cash back. You didn't have to buy a crown pack separate so you are not buying it twice with money you worked for.

The DLC buyer has to buy that with no cash back and they can't step foot in the DLC until they do.

I could make 15 dollars singing on the street for 15 minutes. The point is irrelevant, the point is, is the game worth paying money for over 12 months and possibly cutting into your time to play other games? With subscription based games declining in popularity, I would say the masses say no. Hence the sub and unsub with each expansion commences.

Thealteregoroman · June 2016

YOOO!!! they mad cause im gonna be walking around in DB clothes in all white! looking oh so fresh!

stevepdodson_ESO888 · June 2016

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

Hey ESO plus subscribers, the rest of us pays for things too ....... maybe even more than you do, yet in your eyes we are still everything that is wrong with the game and dont deserve ***

in no way are you "wrong" with the game I have nothing against anyone who enjoys playing the game, my only point is to say that ESO Plus Subscribers are no more or less deserving of anything in the game...we just pay for these things over and over again every single month. And yes you too can "deserve" something by paying for it. If ZOS makes theses same things available in the Crown Store for non-subscribers I have no problem with that either.

as someone else tried to point out that ESO Plus Subscribers get "free DLC" and "free Crowns"...again I add that we also pay for it every single month and not just a one off payment if and when we feel like access to a new DLC

i am not likely to stop my subscription, but given the choice i would rather get a refund than have to put up with the Dark Brotherhood DLC...what a huge disappointment that was..tried it once and won't bother doing my alts in there

rootimus · June 2016

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

The black panther mount is a perfect example of subs being "forced" into buying crowns because they weren't given enough notice to save up monthly sum for that big price tag. This was intentional.

You always have the option to not buy it. Yes, Zenimax are trying to scam you into handing over more money, but you're personally responsible for not letting yourself get scammed. I don't buy their OMG Limited Offer mounts and I don't reply to emails from Nigerian Princes.

In this case, it's not like mounts do anything different. If they had varying stats, or some were better suited to PvP and others PvE, then I'd possibly buy one. As it stands, they're just mount skins - I really don't have to have those, but it would be a good way for Zenimax to put achievement points to good use on the PC.

Cazzy · June 2016

rootimus wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

rootimus wrote: »

The whole subscriber vs non-subscriber thing has to be one of the biggest non-issues with this game.

Transairion wrote: »

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

We have Moore's Law, Sod's Law and Godwin's Law. Is there another one about forum users making up statistics and then not even standing by them by the end of the second sentence?

The Bulls hit law?

Sir, I like the cut of your jib.

I like the groove of your jive.

CherryCake · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Lightninvash · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

In the case of my father he worked just about every day long hours just to support his family he didn't go to college so it was much harder for him to get the good paying job as he did. He worked the assembly line at Ford motors. He came home beat exhausted every day and we could all see how hard he worked to make sure we all had everything we needed. While him and my mother wore old clothes(some starting to wear thin and have holes in them(that was before the trend of having holes in jeans ofc.) If he could have worked more I'm sure he would have but even when he worked that hard every day coming home sore just for working.

While I know how expensive school is and the struggles to afford those costs. But imaging that times 8 kids and having the usual worries like food gas keeping up with the house holidays etc. Sometimes you just don't have the energy to do more. There is a limit to what every person can do. For those like him who do all they can to keep everything paid for. Some people simply cant afford everything on a consistent basis even as little as 15 a month.

That's all I am saying about that, and to revert that to my original point that being said. The people who cant would pay for a sub while trying to attempt to buy the dlc that they enjoy incase they need to give up the sub incase something happens so that they can have the same enjoyment of the game.

Lysette · June 2016

Now let see what ESO+ perks do actually cost - you will see they are quite cheap - and I will not even take the DLC access into account with it - just those other perks.

A year - 2x 6-months subscription - cost 132€. For 132€ I could buy 20,742 crowns at regular price. The subscription has 18,000 crowns included - so the perks and DLCs cost me effectively 2.742 crowns per year or or 17.45€ per year extra.

Now lets see with a 40% sale of crowns - for 132€ i would get 34,571 crowns at discounted price. So the ESO+ perks with DLC access cost me effectively 16,571 crowns per year or 105,45€ (at regular prices reconverted).

If we take DLC access into account as well and would not even count those DLCs, which are already out yet, but just new ones, and assume them to be 2500 crowns in average - the other perks are basically for free with the subscription and regular crown prices - but would cost 6,671 crowns per year with discounted crowns.

So I would say a reasonable price for a crown store crafting bag would be 7000 crowns - my suggestion.

Cazzy · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

I can't work. I'm too disabled. I can rarely leave my house

Kalifas · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Now let see what ESO+ perks do actually cost - you will see they are quite cheap - and I will not even take the DLC access into account with it - just those other perks.

A year - 2x 6-months subscription - cost 132€. For 132€ I could buy 20,742 crowns at regular price. The subscription has 18,000 crowns included - so the perks and DLCs cost me effectively 2.742 crowns per year or or 17.45€ per year extra.

Now lets see with a 40% sale of crowns - for 132€ i would get 34,571 crowns at discounted price. So the ESO+ perks with DLC access cost me effectively 16,571 crowns per year or 105,45€ (at regular prices reconverted).

If we take DLC access into account as well and would not even count those DLCs, which are already out yet, but just new ones, and assume them to be 2500 crowns in average - the other perks are basically for free with the subscription and regular crown prices - but would cost 6,671 crowns per year with discounted crowns.

So I would say a reasonable price for a crown store crafting bag would be 7000 crowns - my suggestion.

That is a little higher than I would price it but hey I will pay 7000 for it if it means no guessing or busy work on what I can or can't do. I wish ZoS would say something like you just said.

Tekyn · June 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

How many people arguing about this are involved in business? Have you ever made a business plan? Do you know what a Profit and Loss report is and why it is used for? Have you ever had to present your market projections to investors?

I am a business owner (capitalist) that deals with these concepts daily. A subscriber is considered a returning customer/account.
A common business philosophy is to "maintain existing customers while creating new ones."

When a player buys crowns on impulse, they are a shopper. As the business, you need to draw (market) the shopper in so they will continue to return again and again (account/ subscriber)

Now a business will offer their products in ways to get these shoppers to come back
Month after month. Perks or incentives they are called.

You can continue to use the business as a regular consumer and buy the products. At the same time, you can join a membership (for a fee) and receive the same service with perks. It makes the customer feel valued and important (and they are indeed)

Now as a business owner, every customer in important to me, but the ones that are loyal and consistent (aka spend their money regularly) are my top priority compared to the person "browsing." I want to maintain them as a customer because they are paying my overhead/salary.

Not sure if the problem understanding this view is due to economic differences between players (socialism vs capitalism) or just simple ignorance of basic business fundamentals.

That's very basic knowledge, and also misrepresents the problem. It boils down to your view on the crafting bag. For serious crafters and even traders, it can be worth more than everything else in the crown store put together. It's not a bonus on the scale of the 10% xp bonus, which applies equally to everyone. It's not a bonus like DLC access that can be paid for separately. Add in the frustration of dealing with the guild bank several times a day, which is still as buggy as ever while they're making an entirely new inventory system addition for subscribers.

The result is that you have a significant number of customers that have paid just as much, sometimes more, as your subscribers, and are (in this regard) being treated the same as someone that's never paid a dime. Someone that's bought all of the DLC to date is told they have to also pay a sub to get this new functionality, rendering their previous purchases worthless.

Those people are upset, and rightly so if the comments about ZoS previously stating they wouldn't do exactly this sort of thing with subs/crown store are true.

Lysette · June 2016

Kalifas wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

No owning the DLC or not is relevant. If you subscribe and never buy it, you are renting and can't use it. But if you rent and use the money you saved, the money ZoS gave you cash back on(Crowns) to buy the DLC. You could play the DLC anytime you wanted to, for the brief hiatus you take if you decided to take one. You didn't have to lift one finger to earn that cash back. You didn't have to buy a crown pack separate so you are not buying it twice with money you worked for.

The DLC buyer has to buy that with no cash back and they can't step foot in the DLC until they do.

I could make 15 dollars singing on the street for 15 minutes. The point is irrelevant, the point is, is the game worth paying money for over 12 months and possibly cutting into your time to play other games? With subscription based games declining in popularity, I would say the masses say no. Hence the sub and unsub with each expansion commences.

See I can play about 40hr/month in average - currently I can play more, normally a lot less. And I play 2 subscription games and as well some single player games - neverthess it is worth for me to subscribe and know, when I will have actually time to play it, I will have premium content available which makes my lmited time worthwhile - to have to bother with minor quality would be a waste of my limited time. That is why I subscribe, even I do not play it that much at all.

Owning a DLC is irrelevant to me - I subscribe for as long as I will be playing this game, and when I do no longer play, why would it be different to own it - I would not play it, so it is irrelevant if I own it or not.

rootimus · June 2016

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Those people have far bigger problems than a video game and the associated cost of internet access from a provider that doesn't shaft them with data caps that prevent them from downloading ESO expansions, or give them such a terrible connection that the game is playable.

Kalifas · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

That calculation is wrong - a subscriber has no need to buy the DLCs - so if you compare it, you have to add that, what a non-subscriber has to pay for DLCs again because to be equal to a subscriber, he needs that same amount of crowns, which he spent on DLC to spend on other content, which the subscriber has - and it will not be cheaper then.

A non-subscriber needs actually:

9500 crowns to get the DLCs
9000 crowns to have the same spent on other things like a subscriber

so you have to compare 18500 crowns to 66€ for a 6-month sub - in a sale with 40% off those crowns would cost 70.63€ - on a sale that is - it is more even then and it does not give the non-subscriber the same, because all the exclusive extras are subscription only.

While I can see what you mean @Lysette, a subscriber does have access to the dlc. However, if the eso+ lapses they no longer have that dlc. So most of the subscribers would be smart to purchase the DLC so they wouldn't lose access to it.

The comparison wasn't about how an eso+ member has the dlc and so doesn't need to use the crowns for it. It was solely about purchasing the dlc via a subscription vs outright via crown store. If you calculate it as the subscriber has the dlc so they do not need to buy the dlc if/when the sub ends they need to purchase the crowns for the dlc and as I have shown it is cheaper to buy outright than to sub for crowns. So they would pay more for the crowns they spend on the crown store and have to buy the dlc if they decided to cancel sub. Because sometimes money can get tight in between paychecks or if you have a sick day or 2 as I'm sure most have experienced.

So sometimes keeping a constant sub can be difficult. So when it lapses you "need" the dlc to keep enjoying the things you were doing. This is why I had said it is all speculation because different people see it in other ways. Some have enough money that keeping a constant sub is no issue regardless of what happens, in that scenario they have it made so they can have the dlc and never have to worry about buying the dlcs. Some may have a lesser amount to spend per month and those people may sub for crowns so they can access the dlc and purchase them when they accumulate enough crowns.

It isn't my math that is incorrect it is the difference in how we looked at it. Which is quite fine either way you look at it we are all supporting the game and that's fine by me

See, seen from my point of view, to buy the DLCs with the crowns from ESO+ is paying double for the same - seriously, if someone does not have those 50 cents per day, to continue subscribing, he should probably not play games in the first place but better get his life in order. An exception are countries of course, where the subscription price is really expensive for them.

@Lysette I don't get how you are paying double since with eso+ you are renting. That is like renting the house and deciding I want to buy the house I am living in and buying the house even though I was already paying for it.

While it may be .50 per day there are things that happen unexpectedly like for instance, you are driving down the road and someone runs a red light and T-bones your car. Until the insurance is processed and are reimbursed you could be out a large amount of money. Or say your kid has an accident and falls from a tree and breaks an arm and the bone is sticking out. You would have to rush to the hospital to get it fixed being out more money. If you are traveling down the road and hit a pot hole and your tire bursts you need to fix the tire. If one or more of your appliances at home goes out like say water heater you could be out a large amount of cash.

There are several reasons why you may have to drop a sub and not have access to the dlc after taking care of the issue that arises and start saving again back to where you were( if you were smart and save.) To say if someone cant afford it they shouldn't play video games and get their life together is rather rude and inconsiderate of issues like that. There are a number of factors that can effect a persons income. Just because you are blessed with steady income and can afford to sub regardless to what happens in your life(assuming due to how you had posted about it)doesn't mean everyone can. That also doesn't mean that they shouldn't play something that they enjoy, or play a game for their enjoyment.

I had came from a poor family being the youngest of 8. Everything as a child I had that my parents couldn't afford to get me I had to work for it. I am fairly successful and can afford the eso+ and buy crowns as it is now, but if I was in a situation like my father was where after bills taking care of kids and anything that may come up while putting money in savings may only have 15-20 for personal spending money. If that was the case I wouldn't be able to afford a sub if something were to happen so assuming that if someone cant afford the sub they need to "get his life in order" isn't necessarily the case and is quite offensive to me on a personal level. Now I am sure you didn't intend to be offensive with the statement; however, it can be taken as an insult to those who struggle every week to make a living. That just want to sit back after work and play eso.

Simple, I subscribe for how long I will be playing - if I own the DLC or not is irrelevant, because when I stop playing, I have no access to it either way, if owned or not - so subscribing and buying the DLC is paying double for it - in rent and as buy price.

And yes, I did not want to be offensive in any way - but even under lousy conditions 15 bucks are earned in what - like 2-3 hours at most. To spend those hours on some extra work - and be it just babysitting like I did it when I had to finance my study - or work behind a bar in a night club, - like I did as well, when I had to finance my study - this is not difficult to do, it just takes the will to do it. So no one can really tell me he cannot earn those extra 15 bucks per month, if he would be willing to do these 2-3 extra hours per month.

No owning the DLC or not is relevant. If you subscribe and never buy it, you are renting and can't use it. But if you rent and use the money you saved, the money ZoS gave you cash back on(Crowns) to buy the DLC. You could play the DLC anytime you wanted to, for the brief hiatus you take if you decided to take one. You didn't have to lift one finger to earn that cash back. You didn't have to buy a crown pack separate so you are not buying it twice with money you worked for.

The DLC buyer has to buy that with no cash back and they can't step foot in the DLC until they do.

I could make 15 dollars singing on the street for 15 minutes. The point is irrelevant, the point is, is the game worth paying money for over 12 months and possibly cutting into your time to play other games? With subscription based games declining in popularity, I would say the masses say no. Hence the sub and unsub with each expansion commences.

See I can play about 40hr/month in average - currently I can play more, normally a lot less. And I play 2 subscription games and as well some single player games - neverthess it is worth for me to subscribe and know, when I will have actually time to play it, I will have premium content available which makes my lmited time worthwhile - to have to bother with minor quality would be a waste of my limited time. That is why I subscribe, even I do not play it that much at all.

That sounds awesome. I used to subscribe to two games a year back in the 360/ps3 days. But prices are going up, I have more bills to pay, less time to play games in general, 4k is becoming a thing, there is the rumor of new consoles and hundreds of games coming out, and I am trying to save for a nicer house.

I don't need to have more monthly bills to manage so I would appreciate a game that respects my time and doesn't demand a yearly investment to enjoy the full quality experience. This is why I like the DLC buy to play approach normally. It allows me to pick and choose the content I enjoy versus making me feel rushed or obligated to pay for a whole package even though I don't care for a good amount of things a game brings to the table and don't have enough time to get my money's worth playing a game all year.

Lysette · June 2016

rootimus wrote: »

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Those people have far bigger problems than a video game and the associated cost of internet access from a provider that doesn't shaft them with data caps that prevent them from downloading ESO expansions, or give them such a terrible connection that the game is playable.

Which is why I said, they should probably not play games but rather care to get their lives in order. But this is not a popular idea, as it seems, to have your life in order, so that 15 bucks for something becomes a non-issue.

imnotanother · June 2016

Tekyn wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

How many people arguing about this are involved in business? Have you ever made a business plan? Do you know what a Profit and Loss report is and why it is used for? Have you ever had to present your market projections to investors?

I am a business owner (capitalist) that deals with these concepts daily. A subscriber is considered a returning customer/account.
A common business philosophy is to "maintain existing customers while creating new ones."

When a player buys crowns on impulse, they are a shopper. As the business, you need to draw (market) the shopper in so they will continue to return again and again (account/ subscriber)

Now a business will offer their products in ways to get these shoppers to come back
Month after month. Perks or incentives they are called.

You can continue to use the business as a regular consumer and buy the products. At the same time, you can join a membership (for a fee) and receive the same service with perks. It makes the customer feel valued and important (and they are indeed)

Now as a business owner, every customer in important to me, but the ones that are loyal and consistent (aka spend their money regularly) are my top priority compared to the person "browsing." I want to maintain them as a customer because they are paying my overhead/salary.

Not sure if the problem understanding this view is due to economic differences between players (socialism vs capitalism) or just simple ignorance of basic business fundamentals.

That's very basic knowledge, and also misrepresents the problem. It boils down to your view on the crafting bag. For serious crafters and even traders, it can be worth more than everything else in the crown store put together. It's not a bonus on the scale of the 10% xp bonus, which applies equally to everyone. It's not a bonus like DLC access that can be paid for separately. Add in the frustration of dealing with the guild bank several times a day, which is still as buggy as ever while they're making an entirely new inventory system addition for subscribers.

The result is that you have a significant number of customers that have paid just as much, sometimes more, as your subscribers, and are (in this regard) being treated the same as someone that's never paid a dime. Someone that's bought all of the DLC to date is told they have to also pay a sub to get this new functionality, rendering their previous purchases worthless.

Those people are upset, and rightly so if the comments about ZoS previously stating they wouldn't do exactly this sort of thing with subs/crown store are true.

You are putting too much value on the crafting bags while reacting from your emotions instead of logic. No offense intended.

I am a subscriber (and buy crowns occasionally) so I have the crafting bag. Technically I pay $15 a month for it but if I cancelled my sub, I would no longer access it. Should I have the right to own it since I subbed for 12 months? Since I bought all DLCs, should it be mine?

No...because why would I pay $15 next month, or the month after?

Now think in terms of a CFO. How are you going to pay the overhead (wages, rent, taxes, advertising, development, etc) if you offer a one time purchase of a product? Would that customer return?

Cazzy · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

rootimus wrote: »

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

You really do live in your own little world dont you? If people live under lousy conditions, you think that even IF they make those extra 15 bucks, they want to spend it on a money grabbing company instead of food, clothes etc?... Can you actually blame poor people for not paying an online game subscription? xDDDDDDDDDD

Those people have far bigger problems than a video game and the associated cost of internet access from a provider that doesn't shaft them with data caps that prevent them from downloading ESO expansions, or give them such a terrible connection that the game is playable.

Which is why I said, they should probably not play games but rather care to get their lives in order. But this is not a popular idea, as it seems, to have your life in order, so that 15 bucks for something becomes a non-issue.

My life is in order. I can't change my health issues, nor cure them. I still pay a sub as it's what keeps me going but I can't always do it when I have a bad month. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind not having benefits when I can't pay, i just wanted to clarify that everyone has different reasons for paying/not paying.