Can i have my dragonblood back first please.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

Tsar_Bogatyr wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

It's well past time to change the Shield Breaker set. Leaving this set in the game after what has been done to shields is like spitting in our faces.

My suggestion woukd be to change the five piece bonus to do extra damage to roll dodgers or to NB. They have it too easy right now.

So i assume you don't stack shields anymore at all on your sorc..

Probably don't even run a single one on your bar since ya know..they're useless

*grin*

Reading comprehension, dude. My words were near uselessness. We have no choice but to use them gimped as they are.

How are they gimped? they still absorb the same amount of damage, what's your problem?

the problem is that basically every good sorc player considers their shield a pro-active and not a reactive defense.
wrobel thought otherwise, but unfortunately this playstyle (of not casting shields until you are taking damage) is not very viable because sorcs cannot take very much damage.

Exactly. Any CC while our shield wears out and we're done for. Get stuck trying to cast on the wrong bar after failed swap and we're done for. There is no other viable option but light armor for our class and it's like paper thanks to changes made back at the start of 1.6. Even with max cp, stam builds rip through it easily.

I think the concept behind sorcs is that they're supposed to be a long-range nuker, so it makes sense that sorcs should be squishy. That being said, it's nearly impossible to keep your opponents at range when snares are prevalent and Streak roots the caster for a brief duration (and has an increasing cost penalty.)

manny254 wrote: »

Doesn't the shield change technically nerf shield breaker? You can let your shield's timer run out faster, and you would not be doomed to be hit by shield breaker for 20 seconds.

Except you have to constantly keep them up to avoid instanuke from something else.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Someone got SB spammed. lol

Play something other than max magicka Overload spam, and maybe we'll care what you have to say.

NB nerfs are coming with next patch. Can't wait to see you squirm.

What's been announced?

Regardless, I'll be fine. I've outperformed despite the rest of the nerfs, and I'll outperform with whatever they do. When have you ever seen me squirm?

It was nice watching you and your emp girl squirm after I 1v2ed then dethroned you this weekend, though. Keep the fights coming baby.

Ok, lets be calm, can't serve the lich king if we are fighting among ourselves:)

if there are going to be NB nerfs next patch (which I have not heard of so I am doubtful) so be it; the game will still have the same issues as now, and will continue to do so until people stop blaming X class. *cough SOFTCAPS*

Oxwood wrote: »

Can't sorcerers just use heavy armor and run impenetrable gear and survive just like all the magic Dragon knights do?

The short answer is no.

Oxwood wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Oxwood wrote: »

Can't sorcerers just use heavy armor and run impenetrable gear and survive just like all the magic Dragon knights do?

The short answer is no.

Can you explain why not?

Sorcs have no resistance passives, making a focus on resistance less desireable. Their shields, which include their best available on demand heal, don't make use of resistance at all. That heal also requires use of a resto staff. They don't regenerate stamina while blocking, outside the heavy armor passive and potions. Their offensive class skills focus on burst damage, which means their damage output will be even lower than that of say, a magicka DK with equal stats. Their cc options are inferior to NB and DK, except for Negate. Bolt Escape cost stacks up fast, and as a heavy user it'd be a waste to use it when rooted - which would then be quite a lot of the time. You'd have to rely on Mistform to change that, like everyone else. In short, it's just not playing to the strengths of the class. Why would you use a build that is in almost every way inferior to it's counterparts on other classes?

Oh yeah, and they don't have decent heals that are coupled to their attack skills, laying a drain on both resources and time.

Ishammael wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sorcs have no resistance passives, making a focus on resistance less desireable.

DKs have 2.5k Spell resist as a passive. That's it.
If you want to cite Volatile Armor... well Sorcs get Lightning Form, which is almost strictly superior.

ToRelax wrote: »

Their shields, which include their best available on demand heal, don't make use of resistance at all. That heal also requires use of a resto staff.

DKs have some heals via Burning Embers and Inhale. Dragon Blood is barely usuable (if 30k HP, Dragon Blood will heal for 3k if you're at 10k health -- won't even save you from execute range). Therefore most DKs run resto. So I'd say they're in the same boat.

ToRelax wrote: »

They don't regenerate stamina while blocking, outside the heavy armor passive and potions.

Nobody regenerates stamina while blocking. However, if you want to count Mountain's Blessing or Battle Roar, you must also consider that Sorcs get Dark Deal. In its current state its actually pretty good coupled the mobility of streak. Daedric Protection also gives you 20% stam regen -- its easy to consider cases where you block a bit, streak away, then utilize shields.

Higher mitigation, stamina returns and heals that do not require swapping on a resto staff (burning embers, whip, inhale, battle roar) go hand in hand to increase a DK's staying power.
Dark Deal requires you to drop block, and it is only reliable when you can break LOS. You are right in that one could make a heavy armor build that streaks behind some object when needed and use dark deal, then get back in. But in reality, that would mean giving up a huge chunk of magicka sustain and/or damage, as well as weaving and crushing shock in order to block effectively with a shield, and accept an rather unreliable heal - for what, really? You'll not survive better by having to use LOS in order to heal, while using shields your mitigation efforts are pointless, and you just get more enemies hitting you without actually working as a tank because you have to withdraw in order to use dark deal.

ToRelax wrote: »

Their offensive class skills focus on burst damage, which means their damage output will be even lower than that of say, a magicka DK with equal stats.

Disagree completely. One of the biggest knocks on DKs is that their DoT damage is too easily purgeable and isn't bursty. Velocious / Frag / Wrath is still good.

The four passives: Capacitor, Energized, Implosion, and Expert Mage give amazing damage and sustain -- nothing on a DK really compares.

I see your point, but it's not contradicting mine; I should have been clearer. The problem for a Sorc wouldn't be that his damage output comes as a burst, but that these skills, especially since they can not be spammed or complemented with a spammable, deal lower damage over a longer period of time, compared to a DK's DoTs. If your burst is not large enough to kill your target or at least put it into serious danger, then pressure will be even lower than the continous DoTs and damage of a magicka DK.

As for the passives - I wouldn't call the damage increase of those "amazing" really, especially without using a destruction staff or overload. And the sustain isn't greater than battle roar and helping hands I think.

ToRelax wrote: »

Their cc options are inferior to NB and DK, except for Negate. Bolt Escape cost stacks up fast, and as a heavy user it'd be a waste to use it when rooted - which would then be quite a lot of the time. You'd have to rely on Mistform to change that, like everyone else. In short, it's just not playing to the strengths of the class. Why would you use a build that is in almost every way inferior to it's counterparts on other classes?

Completely disagree here. Steak, Encase, Mines, and Rune Prison are all excellent CC skills. And don't forget Frags. Negate is the best ultimate in the game for PvP right now... and it costs only 190 ult.

15% ult cost reduction means Bats only costs 140 and Meteor is 170! A DK would kill for that.

Mines won't aren't as good as they used to be with everyone charging over them, and for a heavy build they are just bad, sorry. Their main point is the damage, which might be rather low on a heavy build, and the cost is very prohibitive.
Streak is very useful, but has to be used with caution unless you want to end up in the wrong corner with the option to stay and die or burn the rest of your magicka to die on the other side. Using it for cc especially means often streaking at least 2 times in a row, which is worse on a heavy build obviously. Encase is great, but for a tanky build inferior to Talons, given that it does not effect targets to the side or behind you, and deals little to no damage, as well as a higher cost (though the difference there is very small now).
And rune prison is free cc immunity. It not only breaks from the slightest hit, it also doesn't allow to hit the target with a follow up cc, unlike petrify.

Of course a DK would want that passive a lot, given he already has battle roar. For everyone else, it is the other way around, of course. Ult cost reduction is great, but it's nothing compared to how useful it is for DKs. Getting an ult ready doesn't save you, at best you can use a negate or atronach and hope it gives enough breathing room to recover a bit.

ToRelax wrote: »

Oh yeah, and they don't have decent heals that are coupled to their attack skills, laying a drain on both resources and time.

I know I am going to get excoriated for this... but you have Crit Surge. Yeah, its not as good as it used to be. Maybe it doesn't fit your "decent" category. Yes, Templars have Jabs and DKs have Whip. But neither have Streak.

I actually think that Sorcerer's have had it so easy for so long that they haven't been forced to truly consider gearing, their passives, and all available skills in the same way DKs or Templars have.

Teargrants and Ezkil used to run Heavy Armor on their sorcs.

Yeah, surge is *** now.

If I recall correctly, Teargrants had a destro/shield build? With a rather low health pool, relying on shields? Funny, considering destro/shields got hit pretty hard with the lates surge nerf, and reliability of shields is what this topic is about.

I could talk more in detail about heavy armor Sorcs and DKs... don't really see the point though, one isn't very good and the other one even worse. I'd think it a better idea to concentrate on what would be needed to make both specs more viable, instead of bickering about all that the other one has going for it.

I don't know how the shield changes = nerf shield breaker.

It's actually become more of a niche set because of it due to the fact you don't have to deal with perma shielding players (for the most part).

Been using shield breaker since day 2 of IC and only now do I think it's time to retire it as it's only really effective versus blazing shield "tanks" and sorcerers intent on doing nothing but spam shields.

I'm actually pretty surprised that the mostly derided 6 second duration largely worked in balancing magicka sorcs quite a bit.

I tried heavy armor and the resource sustain just isn't there IMO, even with Black Rose. Ezareth-type builds aside, I am uncomfortable having a build rely on an Ultimate, especially one that can be dodged.

Sorcs were easy mode since 1.6, but this patch reminds me of 1.5 when they were seen as negate monkeys. I think a lot of people are too paranoid when it comes to sorcs and DKs because they believed those two classes were OP for too long. Go ahead and brand them with a scarlet letter for what you deem as past injustices that must never be forgiven, but it's a pretty crappy method for trying to balance a game.

I got hit for 13K biting jabs last night; but lets blame sorcerers for the ridiculous damage output:)

Honestly, if it were not for those shield bubbles or damage shields, whatever one wants to call them, sorcerers would generally be screwed. How else are they going to survive 13K biting jabs and 10K plus wrecking blows? thats enough to literally 3 shot or less the average player.

This is not the fault of X class, it lies in the mechanics of the game. Nerfing X class or X ability will not fix the ridiculous damage output everyone complains about.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Someone got SB spammed. lol

Play something other than max magicka Overload spam, and maybe we'll care what you have to say.

NB nerfs are coming with next patch. Can't wait to see you squirm.

What's been announced?

Regardless, I'll be fine. I've outperformed despite the rest of the nerfs, and I'll outperform with whatever they do. When have you ever seen me squirm?

It was nice watching you and your emp girl squirm after I 1v2ed then dethroned you this weekend, though. Keep the fights coming baby.

What slapping on some Heavy armor with Fasalla's Guile and call that outperforming? What nerfs to NB are you really talking about? Exactly nothing to overcome. LOL to that second bold part brags about killing an emp that was probably afk, i remember watching you get smacked by Sypher like 2 months ago, right after you ate 3 mines and a dawnbreaker you msd him within 5 seconds to say your HP was desynched LOL when you clearly had been outplayed, nothing you say about what happened in a fight ever has any weight to it. Now shoooo.

Stam sorcs do seem to be doing better now based on what I have seen.