Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)

Mojmir · May 2016

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · May 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

A lot people aren't smart enough to comprehend this @Mojmir

The bags were always intended to be a sub benefit but people still complain. The only thing I have to say to the people who refuse to sub for the bag and complain about not having one is to either shut up and be happy with what you have or leave and don't come back. It is their own fault for not subbing that they don't have the bag.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Aitherios wrote: »

This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.

Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.

I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.

"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.

Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?

Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.

I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.

I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...

from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.

You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.

Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.

@ShedsHisTail

Actually we are paying rent for access to something we already own.

see thats the whole point of value for some vs. no-value for others.

-ESO Plus gives
-DLC access
-more exp
-more gold
-reduces research time

-Those of us who buy instead of subscribe'
-own the DLC
-have EXP scrolls or potions
-can still gain gold
-may be done researching

*We are paying to rent something we already own* so that analogy is spot on.*

You've lost me.
How does listing features have anything to do with the principles of rent vs own?

@ShedsHisTail
Listing what is offered in ESO PLus (rented) and comparing those to what is purchase via crowns (owned) is the whole point of earlier comments.

I'm showing you that what those who buy crowns to buy the items that give the same features and functions as the ESO benefits are not seeing value because they already purchased the benefits.

If that doesn't make sense, perhaps it explains why you disagree or don't understand the feedback to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus, in addition to keeping it offered as a (rental) via ESO Plus.

If you use ESO Plus and use those crowns to buy some of the benefits, the next renewal is of lesser value.

I see. You're replying to something I didn't say, that's why it doesn't make sense.

The previous poster said he didn't see the point of subscribing now and renting the things he already owns.

"I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... "

I was explaining that by adding a subscription he doesn't lose ownership of the things he already bought.
I'm not certain what you thought I was saying.

@ShedsHisTail
No, I believe my comment makes sense in context to your comment.
Tommy1979 made a comment about how the B2P model was sold under the no sub required

You replied "Why would you assume that?"
I used Tommy1979's analogy to reply to you because your comment asks "why" and that comment as well as others displays that you do not see ESO Plus as Tommy1979 describes it for those who choose to buy vs sub.

He was asking why Tommy1979 would assume subscriber benefits would also be purchasable in the crown store.

@FLuFFyxMuFFiN

I understand the question, this my response earlier in the thread. We've already detailed that the benefits from ESO plus are in the crown store already. That's the whole point of why those who don't want to sub are asking "why the crafting bag isn't in the store".

Posts above from my comment detail in one form or another, the means to experience the game and different offerings are made available in some ways to ESO plus via a sub and in other ways to those who wish to pay for each.

These offerings work best for the different types of customers.
The ask is for this to continue with the crafting bag feature.

So as an example, ESO plus as it does today, enhances any existing feature it would enhance crafting bags to be "unlimited" whereas buying it outright would possibly exist as 200-400+ slots via crown store and in-game methods of some currency with upgrade to slots via crowns and in-game methods to coincide with a max of whatever amount of slots.

The whole point of ESO plus should create value for those who see it as such by adding more capacity or benefit to crafting bags, as well as increasing the benefits of any existing ESO plus benefit today. If the point is, as some seem to think, to get more ppl to sub, then crafting bags only appeal to one group while non-crafters still see little to no value.

Notice a lot of the arguments are around "crafting" vs how is this "winning".

Personofsecrets · May 2016

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

Dahkoht · May 2016

Gives me the bonus of enjoying the whines..........

rotaugen454 · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

What? This is a business, and people pay for a product. What they choose to sell and what we choose to buy don't have anything to do with societal values or morals. I hope you are being sarcastic and that my sarcasm meter needs batteries.

Dahkoht · May 2016

I sub because I want more *** than people that don't sub , nothing to do with donations or such ridiculous things.

Same reason I work , to make $$$$$$ , in no way shape or form is there any other reason.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · May 2016

Dahkoht wrote: »

Gives me the bonus of enjoying the whines..........

The poor people are serving the whines of course

newtinmpls · May 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

locking an increased bank space which has been repeatedly asked for behind a subscription pay wall has been construed by many as disingenuous and misleading when b2p customers were sold and chose to buy for whatever reason that particular model.

Again .. while I've seen 'don't increase subs' as a PART of an answer to a fairly slanted survey (and I used to work in market research, and have also studied statistics, so I know how distorted that is), I've not seen any particular poster(s) state outright that non-sub peeps should not/ever get bag/bank increases.

OTOH... I did like the sub model, it seemed (ideally/theoretically) conducive to a more mature play-base, and a better game/product (ideally related to ongoing income>>development). And IF ZoS has sought a non-overtly Pay-To-Win way to strongly encourage future/continuing subs as being more desirable than non-sub-&-occasionally spend crowns, THEN I think they came up with something that might work.

As for increased bank space. I've not been able to max my various character's bank space in-game due to lack of income/money. So while there is some sort of way high theoretical max, my characters average 90-100 plus about 5-10 more from "riding lessons" purchased in-game.

I know that a number of folks have stated that the don't consider a crafting bag worth subbing for and have offered various tips on how to maximize in-game storage.

And I'm not seeing what is so "disingenuous and misleading" about B2P. You can still buy the game, play it and never "have" to spend a crown.

You will get all mats (thanks to leveling, and to guild stores where you don't have to join to buy)
You will get all drops/sets (thanks to Undaunted and other dailies)
You can still PvP or PvE to your heart's content.

MasterSpatula · May 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

This whole issue is so devisive it does neither 'side' any favours and frankly some of the attitudes shown leave a bad taste in the mouth. The whole debacle has left me less than enamoured with this game & its players, even more than all the PVE /PVP nerf rubbish that is one of the main whinges.

Same here @Hallothiel ... ZOS' actions (not just this, but others) have made me question the integrity of the future of ESO and the attitudes presented on this thread really makes me question if I want to be participate with this community much longer.

Hmm... ZOS better be thanking the Divines this is a TES game...

Man, just enough with the ascribing nefarious intent. "Shady," "manipulative," "made me question the integrity..."

If you ever are so convinced you're right that your opponent has to be a bad person, you need to take a step back and engage your empathy.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Dahkoht wrote: »

I sub because I want more *** than people that don't sub , nothing to do with donations or such ridiculous things.

Same reason I work , to make $$$$$$ , in no way shape or form is there any other reason.

Hey, I don't care if things are P2W either, but if people are going to call for P2W, then I don't see why they should deny wanting P2W.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

What? This is a business, and people pay for a product. What they choose to sell and what we choose to buy don't have anything to do with societal values or morals. I hope you are being sarcastic and that my sarcasm meter needs batteries.

Capitalism without values guiding that aspect of life results in a perverse monster.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

I sub because I want more *** than people that don't sub , nothing to do with donations or such ridiculous things.

Same reason I work , to make $$$$$$ , in no way shape or form is there any other reason.

Hey, I don't care if things are P2W either, but if people are going to call for P2W, then I don't see why they should deny wanting P2W.

The bags are not P2W though. Idk why you think they are.

Luigi_Vampa · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

Are you kidding me? I'm not donating money to ZOS, I am paying for a product. I expect in return to get the benefits I am paying for. This a business relationship, not a charity.

ZOS won't outright tell you this, but they like subs better. It is a predictable income that makes business men comfortable to plan yearly and quarterly budgets. Crown store purchases are chaotic. You can't realiably plan a budget with it alone, because you don't know how much money you're going to make. Many subs also buy crowns to get costumes, mounts, mount upgrades etc... so they are the ideal costumers. They provide a steady revenue stream along with income spikes when cool stuff goes in the crown store.

Perversion of our societal values... Thank you for the laughs.

wayfarerx · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

What? This is a business, and people pay for a product. What they choose to sell and what we choose to buy don't have anything to do with societal values or morals. I hope you are being sarcastic and that my sarcasm meter needs batteries.

Capitalism without values guiding that aspect of life results in a perverse monster.

Forgive me, I might have nodded off a bit in the depths of this thread, but we're still talking about video games here, right?

Tandor · May 2016

I'm wholly in favour of the crafting bags being for ESO+ members only, it's what they were always announced as being and I see no reason to change it. If ZOS end up a few months down the line offering a significantly lesser but still useful version on the Crown Store for those who don't subscribe (or stop doing so) then I'll have no problem with that. For now, however, this is intended to be an extra reward for subscribing and I'm happy with that. For the record, I have two accounts, one of which is subscribed and one of which is not. I have no issue with the fact that only some of my characters will get the crafting bag, and I know exactly how to get it for the others if I want to. I'm fine with that.

As for the OP's attempt to lock out of the discussion those who disagree with him, well I can only describe that as a pathetic failure to comprehend the purpose of a discussion forum.

Pheefs · May 2016

How RIGHT it is, I'm pretty sure that's what you meant to say...
as many many MANY of the people in this & the similar threads have said, anything that makes more people subscribe is a very good thing for the life and health of the game!

& that they choose something that every non-subscribing crafter or collector will want.... well....

newtinmpls · May 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

I don't agree with though is being told I'm less important as a customer or that my money is worthless compared to a projected income through subs, I'm a customer too and I've paid to be here just the same as you guys.
.

I missed this comment first time around (blame it on the coffee).

I think that no one is being told they are less important as a person.

All of use have "paid to be here" in that we all had to buy the game - regardless of our other choices.

I think that ZoS is trying to encourage more folks to sub, and to encourage those thinking about unsubbing to stay subbed.

Another thing I think is interesting is that (and I of course could be wrong) the use of a crafting bag appears (to me) to be likely to appeal to those who
-craft at multiple levels (i.e. either have characters of many levels, or craft for guilds/newbies)
-like to collect/save in-game things (such as perhaps clothing, cool/cute stolen items, maps, writs) implying that such people are participating in multiple parts of the game (i.e. crafting, stealing and so on).

It seems to me (again, I could be wrong) that such a bag seems less likely to appeal to min-maxers, PvP'ers and people who don't collect, don't craft, don't packrat, don't do multiple alts.

I think that ZoS may be trying to get subs from people more likely to engage in long term gaming; which frankly seems to be the logical target of subs.

Just thinkin'

iam117 · May 2016

new title for thread:

"Does nobody else see how wrong it is this thread is still active"

its not your game to design, if your unhappy with it i suggest designing one that you enjoy, if you want the bags that bad, sub. but if you do go design you own game, remember it needs players that pay long term to stay alive, so making perks for people who sub is not a horrid idea :P no one is being penalized for not subbing, everyone survived this long without them, and those that dont sub will survive into the future without them. that or they will sub or leave.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

I'd really like a Thief's Bag where I can put the billion little trinkets that I can't fence until tomorrow.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I'd really like a Thief's Bag where I can put the billion little trinkets that I can't fence until tomorrow.

YES! Make it happen ZoS!

jpsgamingb14_ESO · May 2016

Im glad that ESO+ members are getting something like this.

Dont say that to be a jerk, but it was time they added something else exclusive to the sub.

newtinmpls · May 2016

This was me:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I pointed out that Crafting Bags offer:

No improvement in combat
No improvement in damage or damage mitigation
No improvement in value of treasure, item drop RNG

So not pay to win. I'm quite impressed that ZoS came up with something so desirable that isn't pay to win. I didn't expect that.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

-having unlimited access to crafting materials and unlimited ability to stock pile mats on any character which results in.

1. crafting items literally improves gear which impacts *combat, *damage and *damage mitigation, which remove the requirement to rely on *RNG as much because you're making what you want/need or providing items for others to do so.

The whole purpose of the crafting bag is to directly impact "crafting materials" which as results have a direct impact on access to crafted items. Understand the removal of VR (errr VR conversion to CP) opens up this to all alts at level 50.

What are we playing for? New and better gear when it comes to what you outline. This is winning for any PvE or PvP interactions.

Anyone can craft. This does not change.

The pre-req's for crafting are:

1-have the mats
2-have the skills to use the appropriate mat
3-have the appropriate number of traits to use a specialized crafting station (if desired)
4-be of the appropriate level (or have access to DLC) to get to the particular crafting station (if desired)
4-have the style materials/motifs to create the style desired

At this time the HIGHEST number of mats per piece is around 200 or so. Even the most basic character/bank combination can hold 60/80 (I think? It's been a while) stacks of 200. Even if it's 200 per item, that would mean that an unimproved character/bank combination (with no alts) can still hoard more than enough for multiple full sets.

Crafting has, IMO, always been better than RNG - but for me that's more about how stressed I get than actual gear comparison.

However lack of a crafting back in no way means you cannot Craft.

newtinmpls · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Posts above from my comment detail in one form or another, the means to experience the game and different offerings are made available in some ways to ESO plus via a sub and in other ways to those who wish to pay for each.

These offerings work best for the different types of customers.
The ask is for this to continue with the crafting bag feature.

So my question to "you" (not any person in particular) is that IF this is now changing, from a long-term corporate perspective, what do "you" think ZoS is aiming at?

Osteos · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I'd really like a Thief's Bag where I can put the billion little trinkets that I can't fence until tomorrow.

A brilliant idea!

TheSpin · May 2016

2 Comments

The whole P2W link to crafting bags is ridiculous. P2SaveTime does not equal P2Win. Plenty of inventory space is available across all characters to handle all crafting needs. Therefore the only benefit of crafting bags is the time and convenience saved by not having to switch characters.

Also, Regarding Inventory Increases for non ESO+. Nobody is against inventory/bank increases, but I think many are against them as a direct response to the crafting bags. Inventory upgrades should not be offered to everyone just to placate them for not getting a crafting bag.

I think this thread pretty much covers everything else already.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I'd really like a Thief's Bag where I can put the billion little trinkets that I can't fence until tomorrow.

YES! Make it happen ZoS!

Must have ESO+ and Thief's Guild DLC.

lol

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

A lot people aren't smart enough to comprehend this @Mojmir

The bags were always intended to be a sub benefit but people still complain. The only thing I have to say to the people who refuse to sub for the bag and complain about not having one is to either shut up and be happy with what you have or leave and don't come back. It is their own fault for not subbing that they don't have the bag.

The crazy thing is, they claim to buy Crowns all the time. If they purchase anything more than 1500 Crowns they have no reason NOT to sub. They get the 15 dollars worth in crowns, all the benefits and can still purchase whatever it is they set out to purchase.

If youre buying up the LTO mounts or costumes every month. Youre definitely buying more Crowns then youd need for the Sub. At that point why not invest in the sub and still get what youre after?

newtinmpls · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I'd really like a Thief's Bag where I can put the billion little trinkets that I can't fence until tomorrow.

What about the billion little trinkets I don't want to fence.

They are so cool I want to keep them!

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Posts above from my comment detail in one form or another, the means to experience the game and different offerings are made available in some ways to ESO plus via a sub and in other ways to those who wish to pay for each.

These offerings work best for the different types of customers.
The ask is for this to continue with the crafting bag feature.

So my question to "you" (not any person in particular) is that IF this is now changing, from a long-term corporate perspective, what do "you" think ZoS is aiming at?

@newtinmpls
It's not a new change it started with the exclusive senche mount which prompted ppl to buy time cards.

What is ZOS aiming at, we can all guess which is what most of this thread has regarding these ideas that they need more subs. Bottom line is their words can be trusted as time after time we've seen things said or written regarding subs and payments to later completely go against prior info.
They've had a lot of change in the last 2 years

-subs gone
-leadership changes
-staff changes
-crown store fluctuations vanity to more than just vanity items
-sub requirements for features
-incoming more staff changes