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Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.
Awesome response, and ultimately you are right. I'm sure that's how the company would see it, and so would anyone else who had to make a judgement call on what really needed to be done.
It doesn't change the way some players will feel though, and I think it's worth at least considering their point. If players have been regular crown purchasers in the past and now they feel subbing is the better value and are willing to purchase a multi-month subscription, wouldn't Zenimax profit more by keeping those players happy? Off the top of my head; Maybe give them an option to 'return' their purchased DLC for 1,000 crowns each? They'd probably blow it on the next few cool store items and be happy to subscribe and continue to purchase extra crowns on the side.
Just to be clear, I sub to games I like. I generally feel it's the better value, but I try to see both sides of the topic.
@ShedsHisTail is correct. People have differing oppinions but some are mere oppinions and others are supported by sound logic.
The bag makes a great sub loyalty reward. Fact is, everyone agrees. It's why non subs want it so much because it's a sweet deal.
Sub and you can have it too.Edited by idk on May 25, 2016 4:39PM1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Why do you people think you deserve a reward for buying things? You wouldn't walk into Best Buy and say, "Hey, I bought a lot of things last year, give me free stuff as a reward." That's madness.!
I don't disagree with you.
However... many of the young'uns nowadays have been raised in the lands of "use plastic" and "cashback" so they DO start to expect a "reward" for spending money.
Skinner would be having a field day.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.
Awesome response, and ultimately you are right. I'm sure that's how the company would see it, and so would anyone else who had to make a judgement call on what really needed to be done.
It doesn't change the way some players will feel though, and I think it's worth at least considering their point. If players have been regular crown purchasers in the past and now they feel subbing is the better value and are willing to purchase a multi-month subscription, wouldn't Zenimax profit more by keeping those players happy? Off the top of my head; Maybe give them an option to 'return' their purchased DLC for 1,000 crowns each? They'd probably blow it on the next few cool store items and be happy to subscribe and continue to purchase extra crowns on the side.
Just to be clear, I sub to games I like. I generally feel it's the better value, but I try to see both sides of the topic.
Check my math post a few down from that one. Non subscribers have been getting a better deal than subscribers ever since the game did away with subscriptions.
No reimbursement necessary."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?3 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭So genuine question for you all, seeing how you all seem to be of the opinion that the sub perks weren't worth it in the past do you all feel $120 a year is a fair price for a crafting bag alone?0 -
TheSpin✭✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO
I wouldn't go so far as to bring logic into this. Playing video games, especially time-sinks like MMOs aren't really logical at all, but @ShedsHisTail certainly has a better argument based on the laws that we live by.
There's also the much more important fact that Crowns often go on sale, but subs do not. How many DLC purchases actually cost $20+ and how much of that was purchased with 50% discounted crowns that have been set aside for such things? This reason alone is probably a good enough reason to let go of considerations to try to 'make things right' to people who purchased everything outright.0 -
ZOS_DaryaKadminWe've removed a couple of posts that were not contributing to the conversation. Please keep your posts relevant to the topic and constructive. We understand this is an issue some of you feel very strongly about but we've seen that you are capable of keeping your comments respectful. Keep on doing that.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »[
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
No improvement in combat
No improvement in damage or damage mitigation
No improvement in value of treasure, item drop RNG
So not pay to win. I'm quite impressed that ZoS came up with something so desirable that isn't pay to win. I didn't expect that.
Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis11 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »[
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
No improvement in combat
No improvement in damage or damage mitigation
No improvement in value of treasure, item drop RNG
So not pay to win. I'm quite impressed that ZoS came up with something so desirable that isn't pay to win. I didn't expect that.
Have to agree 100%6 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Thank you for your oppinion. However I disagree. ESO has every right to provide these bags exclusively to subscribers and no need to bow threads like this one.
Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions are the prefered source of income for a great many reasons. At that this carrot added to the ESO+ benefits is a big plus for marketing subscriptions.
In the end, crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is a win win for Zos. You can sub if you want to.
This ^^^, The only thing I see as a possible negative to the bags is resources might become a little more rare in the world, outside that as a perk it is great, maybe they will break the packs down and sell them individually, who knows. I see nothing wrong with them.0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What is interesting is people saying they will NEED this crafting bag after DB launches, but the fact is, people will need LESS space since anyone with a high level VR (soon to be CP) character won't need all the various mats from previous VR levels. The only people that will still need the lower CP level mats are brand new players, and as long term players already know, managing inventory isn't a huge problem unless you make it one.
Or... althololics like me that have been subbed and playing for over 2 years with two accounts and my characters range from v16 to lvl 5 (and I'm also looking forward to starting new characters when I can buy more slots.
I have stacks of refined and unrefined from all levels
Saved all the bound gear that "might be useful" for a later character
Saved all the dropped gear that "might be useful" for a later character
Saved all the cool stolen laundered items that my various characters wanted to keep (one of the hazards of RP)
Tend to accumulate maps, crafting writs, bait, "back up jewelry" (like vs flame stuff for certain dungeons).
So yeah, my packrat personality, and my playstyle makes the (currently theoretical) crafting bag highly desirable to me.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
Francis_Toliver✭✭✭Why not make crafting bags purchaseable, that'd surely solve all the problems. For instance I'm not a subscriber but I have paid a substantial amount of money for the things I have in game, mounts, dlcs, costumes etc I feel that I need to be rewarded for my income too otherwise it feels that the devs just don't appreciate the people who don't have a steady income to pay a subscription but will happily pay for a new Dlc or something they really like as soon as they can afford it.
Here's the thing I don't get. People think that if they buy things in the crown store that means they are equivalent to a subscriber. You are NOT. You may spend 1000 times more then a subscriber but you still are not a subscriber.
If you were then ESO would have been buy to play from the get go.
The reason that ESO would prefer subscribers rather then a person that buys things in the crown store is because a subscriber has formed an ongoing relationship with them. A contractual relationship. Subscriptions give ESO a RELIABLE source of income. Subscribers assure that cash flow will remain constant so ESO can plan ahead and be stable. Subscribers stay and play and are by and large, long term players.
Non subscribers are by and large, none of those things. Don't get me wrong, folks who purchase stuff in the crown store and buy to play are an important part of the eso community, but they are not as preferred as a subscriber.
Offering the craft bag to subscribers is a way give back to and cement the relationship for people who have committed to ESO. It is an incentive to others to form that committed relationship.
It is NOT about the money you spend. It is about commitment to the game and the company. It is about the relationship you have. Is it...Casual or is it Committed.
I love this game and I honestly like all the folks that work their rear ends off making it for us. I am happy to subscribe and have two subscription accounts (my wife has two more). I have spent countless hours here with really good friends, laughing and cursing and dancing little victory dances when we win. Time well spent.
Of course I am going to subscribe. That is how I show support for a game I love.
For those folks that can't afford 15 dollars a month (not sure how you are buying the dlc's and spending all those crowns if you can't even afford 15 bucks a month to subscribe, but whatever), then perhaps you aren't ready for a committed relationship with others. That's fine, but complaining when the folks at ESO DO want that and encourage others to do so isn't going to change anything. Mature folks like commitment. We gain benefits from relationships where we can't just walk away at a moments notice. That is the reason FOR those relationships!
In this case the benefit is a crafting bag <g>.
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Annalyse✭✭✭✭✭I'll just post here what I put in all of these threads...
As much as I want one, crafting bags SHOULD be exclusive to ESO Plus. They need incentives. For what they get currently I'm not sure why anyone would even subscribe.
That said, they need to increase storage options for everyone. Every time a new DLC is released there are new materials/motifs/items that require more bank space - but there is not more bank space given. We need more bank extensions to be added to the game. As it is, having characters of all levels which requires me to save materials of all levels, I generally have a completely maxed bank as well as extra stuff stored on the character I play least (which rotates around). Logging in and out in this game is not a fast thing and we shouldn't have to do that to access materials we need. And I am in no way a hoarder - I do sell off mats that I gain multiple stacks of - but when you play a lot of different characters in all different level groups, you have to keep a lot of stuff.
Crafting bags for ESO Plus = good idea. But please, please allow everyone to have access to more bank space.4 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
Why is it hard for you to grasp that if a person already owns those dlc zones there's no need to pay for access to them through subscribing, I just don't see the crafting bags as worth $15 alone and the rest of the subscription perks suck according to all of you so why would I subscribe?
Thanks I guess
@Tommy1979AtWar
Sorry, I missed this, was on my mobile, doesn't seem to load all responses for some reason.
If you already own DLC content, adding a subscription does not mean you're paying again for content you already have. You will still own that DLC, and you aren't being charged retroactively for it. If you were to decide the bag wasn't worth it an cancel your subscription, you would still own those DLC which you purchased prior to activating your subscription.
A new subscription would get you the various perks of subscribing, and any new DLC releases at no additional cost. If you choose to unsubscribe, you would lose those.
I'm not going to address the rest of your post because that's simply a matter of your opinion versus mine.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS isn't allowed to offer new incentives to increase the subscriber base without also offering the same incentive to not subscribe? That makes no sense at all.
The crafting bags aren't a loyalty perk for those that have been subscribing, they are an attempt to gain new subscriptions and retain the current ones. That's business.PS4 Pro NA3 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.
Awesome response, and ultimately you are right. I'm sure that's how the company would see it, and so would anyone else who had to make a judgement call on what really needed to be done.
It doesn't change the way some players will feel though, and I think it's worth at least considering their point. If players have been regular crown purchasers in the past and now they feel subbing is the better value and are willing to purchase a multi-month subscription, wouldn't Zenimax profit more by keeping those players happy? Off the top of my head; Maybe give them an option to 'return' their purchased DLC for 1,000 crowns each? They'd probably blow it on the next few cool store items and be happy to subscribe and continue to purchase extra crowns on the side.
Just to be clear, I sub to games I like. I generally feel it's the better value, but I try to see both sides of the topic.
@ShedsHisTail is correct. People have differing oppinions but some are mere oppinions and others are supported by sound logic.
The bag makes a great sub loyalty reward. Fact is, everyone agrees. It's why non subs want it so much because it's a sweet deal.
Sub and you can have it too.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO
I think it would go a long way toward combatting the misconception of what these bags are if we quit referring to them as a "loyalty reward." As I've said before, these aren't being handed out to "loyal" customers. Anyone can get one, even a brand new player, all they have to do is subscribe.
They are a "subscription incentive." That is their purpose; to encourage non-subscribers to subscribe. Those of us who've been subscribed for a long time, well, that's just lucky for us; but it's certainly not a reward.
Calling it a "loyalty reward" induces a reaction in those folks who've been spending money all this time. It makes them go, "Wait! I'm loyal too! Just in a different way." It makes them feel as though their contributions aren't valued, which isn't the case. I'm sure ZOS appreciates their dollars as much as mine.
ZOS is just saying, "Hey guys, if you're spending the money anyway, why not join the club. We'll throw in this sweet bag."Edited by ShedsHisTail on May 25, 2016 5:26PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?7 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS isn't allowed to offer new incentives to increase the subscriber base without also offering the same incentive to not subscribe? That makes no sense at all.
The crafting bags aren't a loyalty perk for those that have been subscribing, they are an attempt to gain new subscriptions and retain the current ones. That's business.
It's your comment that doesn't make sense.
If your going to say Zos is not allowed to do so you must explain why they are not allowed. I mean I legal terms what prevents them.
People, if your going to make an argument back it up with reality. Not just warm fuzzy feelings.0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
Why is it hard for you to grasp that if a person already owns those dlc zones there's no need to pay for access to them through subscribing, I just don't see the crafting bags as worth $15 alone and the rest of the subscription perks suck according to all of you so why would I subscribe?
Thanks I guess
@Tommy1979AtWar
Sorry, I missed this, was on my mobile, doesn't seem to load all responses for some reason.
If you already own DLC content, adding a subscription does not mean you're paying again for content you already have. You will still own that DLC, and you aren't being charged retroactively for it. If you were to decide the bag wasn't worth it an cancel your subscription, you would still own those DLC which you purchased prior to activating your subscription.
A new subscription would get you the various perks of subscribing, and any new DLC releases at no additional cost. If you choose to unsubscribe, you would lose those.
I'm not going to address the rest of your post because that's simply a matter of your opinion versus mine.
I understand perfectly how the subscription model works but seeing as I don't think any of the perks including the crafting bag are worth $120 per year I have no need to subscribe.0 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ZOS isn't allowed to offer new incentives to increase the subscriber base without also offering the same incentive to not subscribe? That makes no sense at all.
The crafting bags aren't a loyalty perk for those that have been subscribing, they are an attempt to gain new subscriptions and retain the current ones. That's business.
It's your comment that doesn't make sense.
If your going to say Zos is not allowed to do so you must explain why they are not allowed. I mean I legal terms what prevents them.
People, if your going to make an argument back it up with reality. Not just warm fuzzy feelings.
I think you misunderstood. My comment was for the people upset about subscribers getting the crafting bags and feel non-subscribers should get them as well. They are the ones that sound like ZOS can't offer new incentives to subscribe without giving them the same thing too for not subscribing.PS4 Pro NA0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.
Awesome response, and ultimately you are right. I'm sure that's how the company would see it, and so would anyone else who had to make a judgement call on what really needed to be done.
It doesn't change the way some players will feel though, and I think it's worth at least considering their point. If players have been regular crown purchasers in the past and now they feel subbing is the better value and are willing to purchase a multi-month subscription, wouldn't Zenimax profit more by keeping those players happy? Off the top of my head; Maybe give them an option to 'return' their purchased DLC for 1,000 crowns each? They'd probably blow it on the next few cool store items and be happy to subscribe and continue to purchase extra crowns on the side.
Just to be clear, I sub to games I like. I generally feel it's the better value, but I try to see both sides of the topic.
@ShedsHisTail is correct. People have differing oppinions but some are mere oppinions and others are supported by sound logic.
The bag makes a great sub loyalty reward. Fact is, everyone agrees. It's why non subs want it so much because it's a sweet deal.
Sub and you can have it too.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO
I think it would go a long way toward combatting the misconception of what these bags are if we quit referring to them as a "loyalty reward." As I've said before, these aren't being handed out to "loyal" customers. Anyone can get one, even a brand new player, all they have to do is subscribe.
They are a "subscription incentive." That is their purpose; to encourage non-subscribers to subscribe. Those of us who've been subscribed for a long time, well, that's just lucky for us; but it's certainly not a reward.
Calling it a "loyalty reward" induces a reaction in those folks who've been spending money all this time. It makes them go, "Wait! I'm loyal too! Just in a different way." It makes them feel as though their contributions aren't valued, which isn't the case. I'm sure ZOS appreciates their dollars as much as mine.
ZOS is just saying, "Hey guys, if you're spending the money anyway, why not join the club. We'll throw in this sweet bag."
You are correct. Especially since they are not giveing them to us like the senche mount. We only get them for as long as we are a subscriber.
I'm looking forward to it. Was considering saving some cash and buying DLC instead of subbing. This changed my mind. I like the perk.3 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »So genuine question for you all, seeing how you all seem to be of the opinion that the sub perks weren't worth it in the past do you all feel $120 a year is a fair price for a crafting bag alone?
@Tommy1979AtWar
No. If I was paying $120 a year just for the bag I wouldn't buy it. But I'm not.
I'm paying for the bag, and access to all the DLC released in that year, and all the other perks which come with it.
I don't get where you're getting this idea that the rest of the perks aren't part of the equation. I haven't seen anyone who said they're worthless. They simply aren't being discussed because no one has complained about them in the past. In fact, if anyone thinks they're worthless, I'd say it's the people who've opted -not- to pay for them via subscription rather than subscribers.
You should be directing your question toward them."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ZOS isn't allowed to offer new incentives to increase the subscriber base without also offering the same incentive to not subscribe? That makes no sense at all.
The crafting bags aren't a loyalty perk for those that have been subscribing, they are an attempt to gain new subscriptions and retain the current ones. That's business.
It's your comment that doesn't make sense.
If your going to say Zos is not allowed to do so you must explain why they are not allowed. I mean I legal terms what prevents them.
People, if your going to make an argument back it up with reality. Not just warm fuzzy feelings.
I think you misunderstood. My comment was for the people upset about subscribers getting the crafting bags and feel non-subscribers should get them as well. They are the ones that sound like ZOS can't offer new incentives to subscribe without giving them the same thing too for not subscribing.
Then I did misunderstand. You are correct. Zos has the right and even more so they have the responsibility to make sound changes to improve subscription numbers.Edited by idk on May 25, 2016 5:31PM1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
Why is it hard for you to grasp that if a person already owns those dlc zones there's no need to pay for access to them through subscribing, I just don't see the crafting bags as worth $15 alone and the rest of the subscription perks suck according to all of you so why would I subscribe?
Thanks I guess
@Tommy1979AtWar
Sorry, I missed this, was on my mobile, doesn't seem to load all responses for some reason.
If you already own DLC content, adding a subscription does not mean you're paying again for content you already have. You will still own that DLC, and you aren't being charged retroactively for it. If you were to decide the bag wasn't worth it an cancel your subscription, you would still own those DLC which you purchased prior to activating your subscription.
A new subscription would get you the various perks of subscribing, and any new DLC releases at no additional cost. If you choose to unsubscribe, you would lose those.
I'm not going to address the rest of your post because that's simply a matter of your opinion versus mine.
I understand perfectly how the subscription model works but seeing as I don't think any of the perks including the crafting bag are worth $120 per year I have no need to subscribe.
And no one is making you.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »So genuine question for you all, seeing how you all seem to be of the opinion that the sub perks weren't worth it in the past do you all feel $120 a year is a fair price for a crafting bag alone?
@Tommy1979AtWar
No. If I was paying $120 a year just for the bag I wouldn't buy it. But I'm not.
I'm paying for the bag, and access to all the DLC released in that year, and all the other perks which come with it.
I don't get where you're getting this idea that the rest of the perks aren't part of the equation. I haven't seen anyone who said they're worthless. They simply aren't being discussed because no one has complained about them in the past. In fact, if anyone thinks they're worthless, I'd say it's the people who've opted -not- to pay for them via subscription rather than subscribers.
You should be directing your question toward them.
I've seen it said lots of times that the subscribed customers haven't had a reason to until now, that the perks were minor and inconsequencial, not worth it and they only subbed to support the games development etc, pretty much the same reasons I chose the B2P model, my question was in fact directed at everyone as I'm interested to hear both sides really.0 -
Asherons_Call✭✭✭✭✭
✭Leave it the way it is. Crafting bags should be an incentive for those who consistently invest in the game. A one time $20 charge doesn't help as much as a paying subscriber. The more paid subscribers there are, the better the game becomes and the more it gives back in the form of content and development.2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »So genuine question for you all, seeing how you all seem to be of the opinion that the sub perks weren't worth it in the past do you all feel $120 a year is a fair price for a crafting bag alone?
@Tommy1979AtWar
No. If I was paying $120 a year just for the bag I wouldn't buy it. But I'm not.
I'm paying for the bag, and access to all the DLC released in that year, and all the other perks which come with it.
I don't get where you're getting this idea that the rest of the perks aren't part of the equation. I haven't seen anyone who said they're worthless. They simply aren't being discussed because no one has complained about them in the past. In fact, if anyone thinks they're worthless, I'd say it's the people who've opted -not- to pay for them via subscription rather than subscribers.
You should be directing your question toward them.
I've seen it said lots of times that the subscribed customers haven't had a reason to until now, that the perks were minor and inconsequencial, not worth it and they only subbed to support the games development etc, pretty much the same reasons I chose the B2P model, my question was in fact directed at everyone as I'm interested to hear both sides really.
Then I would suspect they were being insincere.
I don't think anyone would subscribe if they didn't have a reason people make choices for reasons. Sometimes those reasons are flawed, but they are there. Anyone saying they chose to subscribe for no reason needs to re-examine their thought process."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
Why is it hard for you to grasp that if a person already owns those dlc zones there's no need to pay for access to them through subscribing, I just don't see the crafting bags as worth $15 alone and the rest of the subscription perks suck according to all of you so why would I subscribe?
Thanks I guess
@Tommy1979AtWar
Sorry, I missed this, was on my mobile, doesn't seem to load all responses for some reason.
If you already own DLC content, adding a subscription does not mean you're paying again for content you already have. You will still own that DLC, and you aren't being charged retroactively for it. If you were to decide the bag wasn't worth it an cancel your subscription, you would still own those DLC which you purchased prior to activating your subscription.
A new subscription would get you the various perks of subscribing, and any new DLC releases at no additional cost. If you choose to unsubscribe, you would lose those.
I'm not going to address the rest of your post because that's simply a matter of your opinion versus mine.
I understand perfectly how the subscription model works but seeing as I don't think any of the perks including the crafting bag are worth $120 per year I have no need to subscribe.
And no one is making you.
I haven't said anywhere that they were trying to, all I did was put forward my own opinion on why people who were sold the B2P model may feel zos scammed them, I really don't understand why the subscriber base are so set against zo$ even raising the bank or bag cap slightly.0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »
I haven't said anywhere that they were trying to, all I did was put forward my own opinion on why people who were sold the B2P model may feel zos scammed them, I really don't understand why the subscriber base are so set against zo$ even raising the bank or bag cap slightly.
Hmmmm
I've never seen those sentiments expressed.
I guess we have differing interpretations.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Taisynn✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »
I haven't said anywhere that they were trying to, all I did was put forward my own opinion on why people who were sold the B2P model may feel zos scammed them, I really don't understand why the subscriber base are so set against zo$ even raising the bank or bag cap slightly.
Hmmmm
I've never seen those sentiments expressed.
I guess we have differing interpretations.
@newtinmpls https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/266749/final-craft-bags-for-eso-plus-members-only-please-share-your-opinion-about-the-rest-of-usEdited by Taisynn on May 25, 2016 5:45PMPC - @Taisynn - NA - CP 268
Shizuko url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CvZa0PPdzAfUv9h_rd8J2vwc1B4NnZGkPL_n4WfgYfs/edit?usp=sharing"]RP Profile[/url - Bosmer - LVL50 - Nightblade 50 Provisioning, 50 Woodworking, 50 Clothing, 50 Alchemy Ebonhart Pact
Nev'e - Bosmer - LVL 18 - Templar 50 Enchanting Ebonhart Pact
Proud Member of the Guilds:
Rusty Old Dragons (Trade) | Children of Skyrim (RP/EP) | Goldleaf Acquisitions (RP/EP)
Spicy Economics (Trade) | The Jackals (RP/EP)0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »So genuine question for you all, seeing how you all seem to be of the opinion that the sub perks weren't worth it in the past do you all feel $120 a year is a fair price for a crafting bag alone?
@Tommy1979AtWar
No. If I was paying $120 a year just for the bag I wouldn't buy it. But I'm not.
I'm paying for the bag, and access to all the DLC released in that year, and all the other perks which come with it.
I don't get where you're getting this idea that the rest of the perks aren't part of the equation. I haven't seen anyone who said they're worthless. They simply aren't being discussed because no one has complained about them in the past. In fact, if anyone thinks they're worthless, I'd say it's the people who've opted -not- to pay for them via subscription rather than subscribers.
You should be directing your question toward them.
I've seen it said lots of times that the subscribed customers haven't had a reason to until now, that the perks were minor and inconsequencial, not worth it and they only subbed to support the games development etc, pretty much the same reasons I chose the B2P model, my question was in fact directed at everyone as I'm interested to hear both sides really.
Then I would suspect they were being insincere.
I don't think anyone would subscribe if they didn't have a reason people make choices for reasons. Sometimes those reasons are flawed, but they are there. Anyone saying they chose to subscribe for no reason needs to re-examine their thought process.
I don't think that many people were or are being that insincere tbh, some people genuinely want to support the game, sometimes the subscription model suits one person and the buy to play model suits another.0 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bottom Line:
1) It doesn't matter how much the handful of non-subbers complain here or subbers either. It is a drop in the bucket of total players.
2) They know if they make this a crown store items, a lot of subbers like me will buy the DLC they want and the bag, and cancel their subs. They will weigh that against projected revenue from making it a crown store item.
ZOS will make their decision based on point 2, and nothing that anyone here says will change that one bit."Get off my lawn!"2
This discussion has been closed.