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Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)
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Lucius_Aelius✭✭✭✭I agree that this isn't something that should be exclusive to ESO+, these Crafting Bags will fundamentally alter the way people who use them play the game significantly for the better, and to say that all the players who pay money directly for DLC's shouldn't have the option to buy this also is a slap in the face to all of us.
I understand and agree that there isn't nearly enough of an incentive to buy ESO+ currently but that doesn't justify adding something this important and giving it only to Subscribers, two wrongs do not make a right and while it's wrong to have ESO+ not be more rewarding it's also wrong to give them something that should be available to everyone just to appease Subscribers and incentivize more people to Subscribe.
This incident really makes me question the validity and practicality of offering two different payment methods for DLC's in the first place, and if this is how hard ZOS is going to push to emphasize Subscribing as the superior option then I think it was a mistake to ever drop the Subscription model. If they are going to continue to have these two alternatives coexist, then they need to be equitably implemented, and while it was unfairly balanced before against Subscribing, now it's going to be unfairly balanced in favor of Subscribing, and while I fully understand all the Subscribers who selfishly want this to stay for them alone, that isn't remotely fair or reasonable for the rest of us.
Just because ESO+ people were getting the shaft before doesn't mean everyone else should be getting the shaft now just to compensate, and that seems to be the rationale behind a lot of people's arguments, that ESO+ is and should be the better option and anyone too cheap to use it can suck it, and that you deserve anything you can get just to make ESO+ actually be worth your money. Newsflash, you don't, we all deserve access to such fundamentally important and game-changing additions, including people who have no interest in Subscribing but who have and will continue to buy DLC content outright.
If they want ESO+ to be more worthwhile then there are lots of other ways they could improve it that won't deprive everyone else of such important content, and anyone saying that the crafting bags finally justify their Subscription and should stay exclusive should be spending their time doing something more useful and coming up with other ways they can get their money's worth that doesn't screw over the rest of us. Seriously that isn't even a valid argument in the least, that's like saying it's not fair that Women don't get equal pay and suggesting that the solution is to give them even more than Men, which is patently ridiculous. You can't fix something that's broken by going overboard in the other direction, it fixes nothing and just stirs up trouble.Edited by Lucius_Aelius on May 25, 2016 10:27AMDaggerfall Covenant - Scourge (Xbox NA) - GT: Lucius Aelius - Lord - 648CP
Lucius Aelius Aurelius - 50 Imperial Dragonknight - Centurion - Stam Tank
Lucius Aelius Valerius - 50 Imperial Templar - Lieutenant - Mag Heal/DPS
Lucius Aelius Regulus - 50 Imperial Nightblade - First Sergeant - Stam DPS
Lucius Aelius Augustus - 50 Imperial Sorcerer - Corporal - Mag DPS
Wags-His-Tail - 20 Argonian Sorcerer - Recruit - TBD
Holds-The-Line - 40 Argonian Dragonknight - Recruit - TBD
Carries-Extra-Gear - 4 Argonian Dragonknight - Recruit - TBD
Guildmaster - Wardens of the Covenant
Group Leader - xpThe Guildxp
Trader - Secret Sauce
Trader - Elite Dungeoneers3 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People who buy DLCs with crowns run the risk of being locked out of subscription benefits and/or overspending.
People who subscribe run the risk of losing access to DLCs if they let their subscription lapse.
You choose the risk you're willing to take when you choose how to play the game. What you're feeling is called buyer's remorse, and while it might suck there is nothing inherently unfair about it.
Crafting bags are available to everyone, they cost ~$15 a month. A banker assistant is available to everyone, it costs ~$45. You don't have to like the prices ZOS sets, but they are either worth it to you or not, your decision.
Actually,we who sub really run no risks.We have the DLCs when they drop automatically,and if we're smart,we can pay for them also.So that we dont ever lose them.I have all DLCs,but went ahead,bought the required extra crowns and paid for them also.
Now,if I DID want to unsub,I still have all content,and stuff I had when I subed,
2 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Lucius_Aelius wrote: »You can't fix something that's broken by going overboard in the other direction, it fixes nothing and just stirs up trouble.
Quite right but I believe it's a case of divide and conquer at this point in that while the forum members are fighting among themselves the focus is taken away from how inexperienced zos are at developing a title because every few weeks there's something else for the forum to be at each others throats about lol.
The easiest solution is to just not participate any further, if they no longer want b2p cash then just spend it elsewhere.
Others may feel it's worth it and that's their perogative but personally it doesn't incentivize me to subscribe, there are plenty of other games far better than eso with cash shop items and dlc to purchase
. 2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
@SwaminoNowlinoSwaminoNowlino wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »SleepyTroll wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »In short.....
-The bag should be a base game feature and the ability to obtain the bag should be in-line with:
-crowns
-in-game gold
-ESO Plus
There are a lot of arguments or opinions but bottom line is this. ZOS has moved away from their initial confirmation of what would be linked to a subscription and what would be in the crown store.
Also, the fact that ESO Plus doesn't work as it should on Xbox One, the bag or any other features should be exclusive to a sub.
How have they gone away with what they said as far as subscription and crown store? the BAG is convenience like literally if I could describe the bag I would say: a bag to conveniently store crafting items instead of having to visit the bank or mule alts.
The first and most obvious is what I mention as respects to Xbox One...this has been the case since day 1 and it still occurs as recent as April 28th 2016
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/03/17/crown-store-showcase
" Don't forget that members of ESO Plus receive a monthly allotment of crowns in addition to other in-game bonuses! "
The other concern is items that are locked behind a sub or crowns
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/02/12/the-road-ahead---february
"he most important thing to remember about Tamriel Unlimited's virtual currency system is that we're not adjusting the base game—it will be exactly the same game, with the same leveling pace, experience point gain, user interface, etc.
We're adding customization and convenience items in the Crown Store, but those will be added to the game as it is now; we're not going to make it harder for you to enjoy the game you already play to encourage you to use the Crown Store."
"Game Director Matt Firor explained that the base game will maintain "the same levelling pace, experience point gain, [and] user interface" it always has, and promised that it won't be made more difficult to play for those who don't spring for real-money items."
"An item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: It either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending Crowns," he wrote. "When it comes to this second category of items, we will generally make in-game variants of similar items available either as drops or as player-craftable items as well."
Not sure if you're on PTS but therGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Thank you for your oppinion. However I disagree. ESO has every right to provide these bags exclusively to subscribers and no need to bow threads like this one.
Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions are the prefered source of income for a great many reasons. At that this carrot added to the ESO+ benefits is a big plus for marketing subscriptions.
In the end, crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is a win win for Zos. You can sub if you want to.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO just read right above....its not a matter of opinion according to my comments above. While others have input their opinions and such, when the director of any company goes public with statements, that company should always make decisions around those statements.
This literally makes the game more difficult in respects to inventory management without a sub so a few things.
1. This is in conflict of earlier promises that were made on ESO Live about the words in the article linked above.
2. The company hasn't resolved outstanding issues specific to xbox one and the crowns or DLC access under ESP Plus
3. Making any feature exclusive to a subscription with no other options partial or incomplete of the subscription feature is not a win nor is it an intelligent business practice specifically due to earlier statement made by the companies director
4. Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions ARE NOT a preferred source of income. Actual cash is a preferred source. All a subscription does is create another study pattern to monitor a customer base. Once you factor in charge-backs, canceled CC, failed charges, customer service costs, etc. its nothing more than another form of payment. that's all it is
5. The real issue if that ZOS refuses to offer meaningful ESO Plus benefits so they've came up with this idea which is going to back-fire around June 20th 2016
1) The game will be exactly zero percent more difficult for you by not having a crafting bag. So you're categorically irrefutably wrong. His statement that they provide a way to save time is a testament to that. "We will GENERALLY make in-game variants..." Not always, not even the majority of the time. So stop.
5) Stop... Just please stop... I am actually an economist for a living and this is maybe the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. As a company, I can pay people to create stuff to feed one time purchases, that are inherently unreliable as to how they will impact revenues. Conversely, I could have a steady supply of income that I can rely on to make investment decisions, and spend next to zero in return as it has already been obligated. I can't count on you to buy a mount four months from now, but I can count on the money that I already have obligated to me through subscriptions in order to make investment decisions.
So stop. Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.
Have you even played PTS and Xbox One respectively?
This isn't an argument or debate its current state vs future state.
End of discussion.
As far as the comment of your perspective that I'm embarrassing myself? What are you referring to specifically. Detail those items as it's unclear in your comments.
I'm observing that your perspective is that of how you think and feel companies can operate excluding what the directors of the companies have committed to. A company whose words can't be trusted isn't a company but instead unethical and that's the direction of my comments. Again, it's not an opinionated perspective but observations of what was said and promised vs what is being done or lack thereof.
And this really has nothing to do with this conversation other than distraction.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Read the prior comments as the entire conversation has everything to do with it. Not sure if you took a moment to read it before u replied
It is you that should read my previous posts especially the one I demonstrate how wrong you are and that subscription revenue is the more prefered revenue for a business model such as ESO.
Basic economics and marketing is what it is. ESO and every right and every reason to provide a reward such as the crafting bags exclusively to ESO+. You have every right to disagree but no reason to expect Zos to change this.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
By no definition based in logic is the crafting bag P2W. It has absolutely zero effect on playability or strength in combat of any character. It's merely storage. To suggest this is P2W is absurd at best.11 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
By no definition based in logic is the crafting bag P2W. It has absolutely zero effect on playability or strength in combat of any character. It's merely storage. To suggest this is P2W is absurd at best.
But...but, it IS P2W. You know, somehow.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
By no definition based in logic is the crafting bag P2W. It has absolutely zero effect on playability or strength in combat of any character. It's merely storage. To suggest this is P2W is absurd at best.
But...but, it IS P2W. You know, somehow.
Over the years P2W has morphed into something i feel i should have and not have to pay for. Or things i disagree with. It is fun Seeing what people slap the tag on anymore.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on May 25, 2016 2:14PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
Divinius✭✭✭✭✭
✭At this point, I kinda want them to just put the craft bag on the crown store....
... at a price of 100,000 Crowns.6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.4 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buyingEdited by NewBlacksmurf on May 25, 2016 3:10PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
MakTheEater✭✭So, this is what it's happening:
- Subscription game->It was not a success
- Buy2Play->A lot of new users arrived (I bought the game just because I found it for not even 10$)
- Now they are trying to make users pay every month again
And then I wonder why people are still playing WoW.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MakTheEater wrote: »So, this is what it's happening:
- Subscription game->It was not a success
- Buy2Play->A lot of new users arrived (I bought the game just because I found it for not even 10$)
- Now they are trying to make users pay every month again
And then I wonder why people are still playing WoW.
Not a completely accurate representation as they are merely providing more reason for players to sub. Not a requirement. Subs provide a more regular and reliable source of revenue so it's logical for Zos to encourage this behavior.
Providing the crafting bag via the crown store would defeat this purpose.Edited by idk on May 25, 2016 3:18PM5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
You miss the big picture. Zos is encouraging subs since they are the most reliable revenue source. Zos is saying if you want the crafting bag all you need to do is sub. If it's not s big deal for you don't sub. No problem.
And they are not going o provide an equal item via the crown shop. No reason to.3 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
In one post you say it is pay to win in the next you say it isnt worth purchasing. Can you please make up your mind.2 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭MakTheEater wrote: »So, this is what it's happening:
- Subscription game->It was not a success
- Buy2Play->A lot of new users arrived (I bought the game just because I found it for not even 10$)
- Now they are trying to make users pay every month again
And then I wonder why people are still playing WoW.
I bought mine new and I feel like we both overpaid these days.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
In one post you say it is pay to win in the next you say it isnt worth purchasing. Can you please make up your mind.
@vyndral13preub18_ESO
Do you understand the context of those two?
Pay2Win is how something is described based on how it accessed and how it works.
Value or not worth purchasing is a customers choice specific to a Pay2Win item or feature.
The two work together and are not opposites of each other.
Put into one sentence:
The crafting bag is a Pay2Win "feature/item" that is not worth subscribing to ESO Plus for access to because ESO Plus provides no value.
-EDIT-
Customers who don't see value in ESO Plus want to buy the bag, and due to ESO Plus being of little to no value to those customers, they aren't incentivized to buy something of no value for access to a feature they do like or want.
Case and point, many customers like the presentation of ESO on PC who play on console. There is/was a huge amount of comments and threads to add a feature (text chat) to consoles. Those customers did not see value in buying a PC for the feature. Its exactly the same context.
There was also a huge request for PC customer to have game-pad support. The PC customers didn't see value in buying a console for game-pad access.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on May 25, 2016 3:36PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?4 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
@ShedsHisTail
Actually we are paying rent for access to something we already own.
see thats the whole point of value for some vs. no-value for others.
-ESO Plus gives
-DLC access
-more exp
-more gold
-reduces research time
-Those of us who buy instead of subscribe'
-own the DLC
-have EXP scrolls or potions
-can still gain gold
-may be done researching
*We are paying to rent something we already own* so that analogy is spot on.*-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
In one post you say it is pay to win in the next you say it isnt worth purchasing. Can you please make up your mind.
@vyndral13preub18_ESO
Do you understand the context of those two?
Pay2Win is how something is described based on how it accessed and how it works.
Value or not worth purchasing is a customers choice specific to a Pay2Win item or feature.
The two work together and are not opposites of each other.
Put into one sentence:
The crafting bag is a Pay2Win "feature/item" that is not worth subscribing to ESO Plus for access to because ESO Plus provides no value.
-EDIT-
Customers who don't see value in ESO Plus want to buy the bag, and due to ESO Plus being of little to no value to those customers, they aren't incentivized to buy something of no value for access to a feature they do like or want.
Case and point, many customers like the presentation of ESO on PC who play on console. There is/was a huge amount of comments and threads to add a feature (text chat) to consoles. Those customers did not see value in buying a PC for the feature. Its exactly the same context.
There was also a huge request for PC customer to have game-pad support. The PC customers didn't see value in buying a console for game-pad access.
Pay to win has no place in this conversation. P2W is when items can be purchased that improve a characters abilities in actual combat and such. Saying storage falls into P2W is a stretch. Extreme stretch and only serves as a desperate distraction.5 -
dtm_samuraib16_ESO✭✭✭✭No use to keep posting here: "It's working as intended".Earthdawn Game Master Role Play Quotes by me:
"If it looks like a bear, if it feels like a bear, smells and tastes like a bear, then be VERY aware, it could be something ENTIRELY different..."
"Be careful what you wish for, you might get plenty of it..."0 -
dtm_samuraib16_ESO✭✭✭✭But why?
It's working as intended.
Pay 13Euro a month, and voila.Earthdawn Game Master Role Play Quotes by me:
"If it looks like a bear, if it feels like a bear, smells and tastes like a bear, then be VERY aware, it could be something ENTIRELY different..."
"Be careful what you wish for, you might get plenty of it..."1 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
Why is it hard for you to grasp that if a person already owns those dlc zones there's no need to pay for access to them through subscribing, I just don't see the crafting bags as worth $15 alone and the rest of the subscription perks suck according to all of you so why would I subscribe?
for future behaviour?
I've no interest in supporting this games development any further at all, there are better games to spend my money on and while I've no interest or need for the craft bags myself I can understand people asking for an alterative such as extending slots beyond the 240 cap etc.
From what I see you're all seemingly trying to convince yourselves that craftiing bags are worth $120 a year lol
It's you perogatives and your money to do with as you all wish but I'm quite happy to sit back and play ESO on server time all of your subs are paying for from now on.
Thanks I guess 1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
@ShedsHisTail
Actually we are paying rent for access to something we already own.
see thats the whole point of value for some vs. no-value for others.
-ESO Plus gives
-DLC access
-more exp
-more gold
-reduces research time
-Those of us who buy instead of subscribe'
-own the DLC
-have EXP scrolls or potions
-can still gain gold
-may be done researching
*We are paying to rent something we already own* so that analogy is spot on.*
You've lost me.
How does listing features have anything to do with the principles of rent vs own?
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, for the folks claiming the bag is P2W, could you perhaps explain to me exactly how you win at ESO and how the bag removes obstacles between you and victory.
I feel like we need to define our terms here."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?6 -
Chillic✭✭✭nimander99 wrote: »Personally I think this is a straight up master stroke of brilliance on the part of whoever came up with this idea at Zenimax, that person need s a bonus!
Everyone is going to sub now, period.
It's not manipulative, it's not sneaky, it's not underhanded, it's business! And smart business at that.
Kudos ZOS on the crafting bags, mad kudos.
And this is coming from someone who has been an active subscriber since June 2014 and purchased the Collector Editions of each DLC.
I respect smart business moves.
I'm not going to sub @nimander99 ... I'm sure there are many others who won't. What's more there will a portion of those players that give up on ESO altogether. People don't like feeling like they are being taken advantage of.
It's a shrewd business move. Smart for the company, not for their customers.
I'm a customer, and actually feel like staying with the sub model is finally worth something. So, it is a smart decision for customers depending on their actions. I am all for anything that motivates people to sub for a game that I hope improves.
I hated when the game went B2P because this is the petty crap that people choose to complain about and we all know, there are far worse issue with this game. For those that have always gone B2P and feel like it would now be a waste, that is the chance you take on going with the model you chose. I took a chance in hoping that subbing would be worth it and for a while, I was wrong.Edited by Chillic on May 25, 2016 4:19PM2 -
TheSpin✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.
Awesome response, and ultimately you are right. I'm sure that's how the company would see it, and so would anyone else who had to make a judgement call on what really needed to be done.
It doesn't change the way some players will feel though, and I think it's worth at least considering their point. If players have been regular crown purchasers in the past and now they feel subbing is the better value and are willing to purchase a multi-month subscription, wouldn't Zenimax profit more by keeping those players happy? Off the top of my head; Maybe give them an option to 'return' their purchased DLC for 1,000 crowns each? They'd probably blow it on the next few cool store items and be happy to subscribe and continue to purchase extra crowns on the side.
Just to be clear, I sub to games I like. I generally feel it's the better value, but I try to see both sides of the topic.1 -
Incarnatus✭✭✭I have just re-subscribed to ESO after quite a while playing other games. I re-subscribed because I feel if a game is worth playing it is worth paying for. For me this is a reward for my "Loyalty". I do not think people who buy Crowns are showing the same support as those who subscribe. I do not feel non-subscribers should get the same "perks" as subscribers.3
This discussion has been closed.