dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As FENGRUSH said, would it really be that bad if stam sorcs were OP for just one patch? Just one? Every other stam class except maybe templar has had a chance to be top dog and that is debatable for this next patch.

It's bad when any patch makes a build OP. What would you really rather have, one patch that Stam Sorc is OP before it's nerfed into the ground. Or a reasonably balanced class that's viable for the continuum?

When a class gets to be OP or anything resembling it, there's player resentment for a long after that time has passed. It makes having any discussion about the class very difficult. That's really the fate you want for Stam Sorc?

Stam sorc is already peremptorily nerfed into the ground. NB has been crazy powerful for about 3 DLCs at this point. The resentment may be there but they aren't getting nerfed that hard.

The biggest "nerf" to magicka DK was the change from dynamic to static ultimate generation. Not even a direct DK nerf. That was a meta nerf. Stam templar, DK, and NB are all exciting with plenty of build options. I just want the same for sorc.

First, you want Stam Sorc to be OP, then you want it to have plenty of build options. Which I might add the others don't truly have either. (Welcome to the Rapid Strikes meta) I honestly don't think you know what you want, if you think that there's no debate that Stam Sorc has at least gotten better. The point really seems to be, that it's not what you want, nebulous as that may be , and therefore it's not good enough.

There's a very genuine possibility that Sorc was not intially designed in a way to support Stamina builds. As such it has to be redesigned bit by bit. That's a very long process, and one that normally happens long before launch. What's your answer, homogenize it? Have it lose defining class characteristics? The class has to retain some semblance of uniqueness. Otherwise players would be complaining it's good, but doesn't feel like a Sorc (See: Stam DK, and the #INeedStaminaWhip to 'feel' like a DK) I get that your tired of waiting for Stam Sorcs day in the sun, but you know there are plenty of others waiting for a myriad of other features. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many hands on deck. It's the best laid plans of mice and men scenario, and at least ZOS is working on it. You clearly don't agree, but they are.

The point is not to make stam sorc OP. Its the fact they wont give it moderate buffs to the point that it would even possibly be anywhere in the realm of OP. If they kept surge how it was, they wouldnt be OP, and theyd be better off. Theyd still be at the bottom of the ranks. So were not moving in the correct direction here. And they dont even know why.

This is a problem.

Minalan wrote: »

I love how the nightblades kept 1-second ganking the ZOS staff during their live show last week. Over and over again.

Then all the ZOS had to say about being confronted with the garbage that they created: "Wow these guys are good!"

Then all you see is a couple of poison strikes in the recap... 1 button. Such skill....

Then a stam DK jumps in and (I think it was Gina) said, "Wow, it takes nine of you to kill this guy."

The rest of us: FACEPALM

Because, the live game isn't going to be any different this week unless it's fixed, and it won't be. I predict Radiant Mage Light is going to be mandatory just to take three steps outside of your keep.

The poison damage better be dealt with. I want to say I saw a 17k hit and @Wrobel couldn't have moved the conversation along any quicker.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As FENGRUSH said, would it really be that bad if stam sorcs were OP for just one patch? Just one? Every other stam class except maybe templar has had a chance to be top dog and that is debatable for this next patch.

It's bad when any patch makes a build OP. What would you really rather have, one patch that Stam Sorc is OP before it's nerfed into the ground. Or a reasonably balanced class that's viable for the continuum?

When a class gets to be OP or anything resembling it, there's player resentment for a long after that time has passed. It makes having any discussion about the class very difficult. That's really the fate you want for Stam Sorc?

Stam sorc is already peremptorily nerfed into the ground. NB has been crazy powerful for about 3 DLCs at this point. The resentment may be there but they aren't getting nerfed that hard.

The biggest "nerf" to magicka DK was the change from dynamic to static ultimate generation. Not even a direct DK nerf. That was a meta nerf. Stam templar, DK, and NB are all exciting with plenty of build options. I just want the same for sorc.

First, you want Stam Sorc to be OP, then you want it to have plenty of build options. Which I might add the others don't truly have either. (Welcome to the Rapid Strikes meta) I honestly don't think you know what you want, if you think that there's no debate that Stam Sorc has at least gotten better. The point really seems to be, that it's not what you want, nebulous as that may be , and therefore it's not good enough.

There's a very genuine possibility that Sorc was not intially designed in a way to support Stamina builds. As such it has to be redesigned bit by bit. That's a very long process, and one that normally happens long before launch. What's your answer, homogenize it? Have it lose defining class characteristics? The class has to retain some semblance of uniqueness. Otherwise players would be complaining it's good, but doesn't feel like a Sorc (See: Stam DK, and the #INeedStaminaWhip to 'feel' like a DK) I get that your tired of waiting for Stam Sorcs day in the sun, but you know there are plenty of others waiting for a myriad of other features. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many hands on deck. It's the best laid plans of mice and men scenario, and at least ZOS is working on it. You clearly don't agree, but they are.

The point is not to make stam sorc OP. Its the fact they wont give it moderate buffs to the point that it would even possibly be anywhere in the realm of OP. If they kept surge how it was, they wouldnt be OP, and theyd be better off. Theyd still be at the bottom of the ranks. So were not moving in the correct direction here. And they dont even know why.

This is a problem.

Dev teams convo.

"Jokes on the other classes. Cause now stamsorcs glow."

"All nightblades and stam DKs should be totes jelly. Cause we made stam sorcs look fabulous."

"Maybe we should buff DK more to compensate their lack of glowing?"

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

? Stam classes best? Yeah on 1v1s stam dks Rock and nbs are awesome in ganks. However open world group vs group which 99% of the pvp is based on stam dk is trash. What? You going to walk into 30 people and try to Wb Someone? Stop trolling please. Mag toons can just proxy bomb with VD or batswarm etc etc. It all depends on the situation. There's classes good at stuff and classes bad at stuff. Stop painting things with a skewed pov...

Ah ok, so your standard is DK is not OP because he can't run in wipe out 30 players, ok. STAM DKs have incredible offense EVEN FOR STA builds in other classes. The DK is getting buffed big time, and @Wrobel seems to be fine with STAplar and especially STA sorc being far inferior.

Sure. Stam DKS are better than stam sorcs for sure. But stam sorcs suck. Its an unfair comparison to gauge a class against stam sorc and say that class is OP. Cos stam sorcs..... are in a sad place now.

Ive got one of each spec for each class... And I know in a group vs group im going to hop onto my mag blade or sorc for sure. Cos thyre just better there. Batswarm or tether/proxy/ with streak or lotus fan boomz kill 1 noob = 10 people dead with VD. Running a stam DK or stamblade is pretty sub optimal there. Unless you LOS kite around like a little dodge roll monkey. Even then you are fked with the new poisons.

In small scale group, im hopping on stam DK for sure. These guys hit hard and can take a pretty darn good beating. Like DKS should. Sorcs and magblades will get focused down so fast its not better to run them over a SNB beastly stam DK in these situations.

When im trolling around stealth gank of course stamblade is the shizzle. Pop pop free AP cloak away to glory. Nothing compares to the stealth burst trolling of stamblades.

Every class has its ups and downs. Like it should have. Short of some sad broken specs like magdks and stamsorcs, the game is in a pretty decent place. In an ideal world every class can do everything but lets face it, that's a lot to ask for. Im okay with the fact that some toons/classes are better at some things than others. As long as there's ups and downs im fine.

The other thing is people love to point out stam toons get higher weapon damage. Or that our primary resource is used for defence so we are OP.....

1. Mag toons have mages guild passives to boost magicka.... 45k magicka is not uncommon. Have you heard of 40k stam? short of imperials this is not going to happen without giving up some insane stam recovery.... Stam has higher weapon power and mag has higher mag pool. It evens out.

2. Yes stam is used for break free or dodge roll but we ALSO use it to attack. Break free once, dodge roll x3 = your stam bar is now close to empty. Good luck fighting. Most stam builds run around with 2k regen just to counter this downside. My mag toons dont even run 1.5k mag regen with a 45k magicka pool.

Again people stop looking at the issue from just one perspective. If you don't have a mag toon AND a stam toon, then stop looking at the other side and claiming OP. Cos I have both. And sure some things could use some rebalancing like sorc PVE DPS and stamsorcs/magDKS in general but apart from these aspects, balance is actually looking like a reality next patch especially in PvP. Maybe one or 2 dlcs more and we could actually look at a viable stamsorc or magDK hopefully.

Jaronking wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

STA DK was already the top dog DPS for STA builds and NB top dog for burst out of stealth. This patch made the STA DK and STA NB even more powerful with skill changes to disease and poison. In addition they nerfed major defensive skills for MAG Sorcs and turned crit surge into hot garbage.

So keep buffing the best STA classes? WTF

They didn't Nerf sorc shields in PVP they Buffed it actually so they will be fine.You shields wouldn't last more than 6 seconds in PVP anyway.So not that big of a deal.

You have no clue what you are talking about. A properly built sorc with 40k+ magic has shields that do not need to be recast that frequently unless you are an overly defensive tard. Furthermore, this reduces our already pitiful offensive oppurtunity window drastically, and at that, a simple timed CC will mean certain death thanks to such a limited duration.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As FENGRUSH said, would it really be that bad if stam sorcs were OP for just one patch? Just one? Every other stam class except maybe templar has had a chance to be top dog and that is debatable for this next patch.

It's bad when any patch makes a build OP. What would you really rather have, one patch that Stam Sorc is OP before it's nerfed into the ground. Or a reasonably balanced class that's viable for the continuum?

When a class gets to be OP or anything resembling it, there's player resentment for a long after that time has passed. It makes having any discussion about the class very difficult. That's really the fate you want for Stam Sorc?

Stam sorc is already peremptorily nerfed into the ground. NB has been crazy powerful for about 3 DLCs at this point. The resentment may be there but they aren't getting nerfed that hard.

The biggest "nerf" to magicka DK was the change from dynamic to static ultimate generation. Not even a direct DK nerf. That was a meta nerf. Stam templar, DK, and NB are all exciting with plenty of build options. I just want the same for sorc.

First, you want Stam Sorc to be OP, then you want it to have plenty of build options. Which I might add the others don't truly have either. (Welcome to the Rapid Strikes meta) I honestly don't think you know what you want, if you think that there's no debate that Stam Sorc has at least gotten better. The point really seems to be, that it's not what you want, nebulous as that may be , and therefore it's not good enough.

There's a very genuine possibility that Sorc was not intially designed in a way to support Stamina builds. As such it has to be redesigned bit by bit. That's a very long process, and one that normally happens long before launch. What's your answer, homogenize it? Have it lose defining class characteristics? The class has to retain some semblance of uniqueness. Otherwise players would be complaining it's good, but doesn't feel like a Sorc (See: Stam DK, and the #INeedStaminaWhip to 'feel' like a DK) I get that your tired of waiting for Stam Sorcs day in the sun, but you know there are plenty of others waiting for a myriad of other features. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many hands on deck. It's the best laid plans of mice and men scenario, and at least ZOS is working on it. You clearly don't agree, but they are.

From day 1, Every class has or had an ability to fire a magical projectile that did magicka damage, If that didn't accidentally homogenize the classes, then having competitive stamina specs won't either. The ability to press a button and get instant damage out of it shouldn't be unique to one class. There are plenty of ways to make that damage unique and preserve class identity.

So your argument is both Apples and Carambola are fruits. That's great.

Let me que you in on something that you seem to not understand. PVE or PVP the best combo for Stamina is going to Rapid Strikes into Dawnbreaker of Smiting with Maelstrom DW. It drastically outpaces everything else. No matter what instant damage ability would be granted to Stam Sorc when they'd still use that. Even Stamina NBs will be using it come DB.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As FENGRUSH said, would it really be that bad if stam sorcs were OP for just one patch? Just one? Every other stam class except maybe templar has had a chance to be top dog and that is debatable for this next patch.

It's bad when any patch makes a build OP. What would you really rather have, one patch that Stam Sorc is OP before it's nerfed into the ground. Or a reasonably balanced class that's viable for the continuum?

When a class gets to be OP or anything resembling it, there's player resentment for a long after that time has passed. It makes having any discussion about the class very difficult. That's really the fate you want for Stam Sorc?

Stam sorc is already peremptorily nerfed into the ground. NB has been crazy powerful for about 3 DLCs at this point. The resentment may be there but they aren't getting nerfed that hard.

The biggest "nerf" to magicka DK was the change from dynamic to static ultimate generation. Not even a direct DK nerf. That was a meta nerf. Stam templar, DK, and NB are all exciting with plenty of build options. I just want the same for sorc.

First, you want Stam Sorc to be OP, then you want it to have plenty of build options. Which I might add the others don't truly have either. (Welcome to the Rapid Strikes meta) I honestly don't think you know what you want, if you think that there's no debate that Stam Sorc has at least gotten better. The point really seems to be, that it's not what you want, nebulous as that may be , and therefore it's not good enough.

There's a very genuine possibility that Sorc was not intially designed in a way to support Stamina builds. As such it has to be redesigned bit by bit. That's a very long process, and one that normally happens long before launch. What's your answer, homogenize it? Have it lose defining class characteristics? The class has to retain some semblance of uniqueness. Otherwise players would be complaining it's good, but doesn't feel like a Sorc (See: Stam DK, and the #INeedStaminaWhip to 'feel' like a DK) I get that your tired of waiting for Stam Sorcs day in the sun, but you know there are plenty of others waiting for a myriad of other features. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many hands on deck. It's the best laid plans of mice and men scenario, and at least ZOS is working on it. You clearly don't agree, but they are.

The point is not to make stam sorc OP. Its the fact they wont give it moderate buffs to the point that it would even possibly be anywhere in the realm of OP. If they kept surge how it was, they wouldnt be OP, and theyd be better off. Theyd still be at the bottom of the ranks. So were not moving in the correct direction here. And they dont even know why.

This is a problem.

The Surge change is an issue for Magicka Sorcs, no more big heals from Overload. For Stam Sorc it lets Surge heal from Rapid Strikes which, especially when paired with Maelstrom DW, is the best spammable for Stam builds in both PVP and PVE. As well as from Dawnbreaker which is the best follow up to DW Maelstrom inhanced Rapid Strikes.

Plus lets think about this; Caltrops and/or Hurricane + Surge + Multiple Targets. There is no AOE cap on heals from Surge. A crit for 1 point will still heal you. So yeah it's not on demand like as with Crit Rush, but that doesn't mean it's not viable.

I could be wrong, but last I heard the 3k base heal from Surge isn't effected by Battle Spirit either.

Hmm wasnt it last patch with thieves guild that people were complaining about magicka nb getting huge buffs and magicka in general and now its stamina turn people are complaining again lol

In the sense that stam DK and stam NB will be stronger than on live (or rather that 6 skills will be) yes, it's a buff. But what you fail to realize is, the fact that stamina costing and scaling abilities were dealing elemental or magical damage in the first place was a gross oversight- you could say these skills were not working as intended, or as they should have functioned all along. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. ZOS didn't approach this with the mindset of "let's buff stam DK and NB". No, they approached it with the mindset of "let's fix X skill to deal the appropriate damage type." In reality and in the grand scheme of things, stam temp and stam sorc are probably seeing a larger buff relative to live with dawnbreaker being changed to physical damage.

Also, on what grounds do you claim stam DK has the best dps? This is true in PvE, but your thread is in regards to PvP, where NB of both variants has always been the king of raw damage. What makes stam DK so strong is the survivability and resource sustain, not the DPS, which has so far been defined by mediocre dots and a very strong ultimate. Too bad take flight is probably the most easily avoided skill in the game, and the only ultimate that literally doesn't work around roots.

dday3six wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As FENGRUSH said, would it really be that bad if stam sorcs were OP for just one patch? Just one? Every other stam class except maybe templar has had a chance to be top dog and that is debatable for this next patch.

It's bad when any patch makes a build OP. What would you really rather have, one patch that Stam Sorc is OP before it's nerfed into the ground. Or a reasonably balanced class that's viable for the continuum?

When a class gets to be OP or anything resembling it, there's player resentment for a long after that time has passed. It makes having any discussion about the class very difficult. That's really the fate you want for Stam Sorc?

Stam sorc is already peremptorily nerfed into the ground. NB has been crazy powerful for about 3 DLCs at this point. The resentment may be there but they aren't getting nerfed that hard.

The biggest "nerf" to magicka DK was the change from dynamic to static ultimate generation. Not even a direct DK nerf. That was a meta nerf. Stam templar, DK, and NB are all exciting with plenty of build options. I just want the same for sorc.

First, you want Stam Sorc to be OP, then you want it to have plenty of build options. Which I might add the others don't truly have either. (Welcome to the Rapid Strikes meta) I honestly don't think you know what you want, if you think that there's no debate that Stam Sorc has at least gotten better. The point really seems to be, that it's not what you want, nebulous as that may be , and therefore it's not good enough.

There's a very genuine possibility that Sorc was not intially designed in a way to support Stamina builds. As such it has to be redesigned bit by bit. That's a very long process, and one that normally happens long before launch. What's your answer, homogenize it? Have it lose defining class characteristics? The class has to retain some semblance of uniqueness. Otherwise players would be complaining it's good, but doesn't feel like a Sorc (See: Stam DK, and the #INeedStaminaWhip to 'feel' like a DK) I get that your tired of waiting for Stam Sorcs day in the sun, but you know there are plenty of others waiting for a myriad of other features. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many hands on deck. It's the best laid plans of mice and men scenario, and at least ZOS is working on it. You clearly don't agree, but they are.

The point is not to make stam sorc OP. Its the fact they wont give it moderate buffs to the point that it would even possibly be anywhere in the realm of OP. If they kept surge how it was, they wouldnt be OP, and theyd be better off. Theyd still be at the bottom of the ranks. So were not moving in the correct direction here. And they dont even know why.

This is a problem.

The Surge change is an issue for Magicka Sorcs, no more big heals from Overload. For Stam Sorc it lets Surge heal from Rapid Strikes which, especially when paired with Maelstrom DW, is the best spammable for Stam builds in both PVP and PVE. As well as from Dawnbreaker which is the best follow up to DW Maelstrom inhanced Rapid Strikes.

Plus lets think about this; Caltrops and/or Hurricane + Surge + Multiple Targets. There is no AOE cap on heals from Surge. A crit for 1 point will still heal you. So yeah it's not on demand like as with Crit Rush, but that doesn't mean it's not viable.

I could be wrong, but last I heard the 3k base heal from Surge isn't effected by Battle Spirit either.

They changed it with 2.4.3. The new surge is effected by battle spirit.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

STA DK was already the top dog DPS for STA builds and NB top dog for burst out of stealth. This patch made the STA DK and STA NB even more powerful with skill changes to disease and poison. In addition they nerfed major defensive skills for MAG Sorcs and turned crit surge into hot garbage.

So keep buffing the best STA classes? WTF

They didn't Nerf sorc shields in PVP they Buffed it actually so they will be fine.You shields wouldn't last more than 6 seconds in PVP anyway.So not that big of a deal.

You have no clue what you are talking about. A properly built sorc with 40k+ magic has shields that do not need to be recast that frequently unless you are an overly defensive tard. Furthermore, this reduces our already pitiful offensive oppurtunity window drastically, and at that, a simple timed CC will mean certain death thanks to such a limited duration.

False against a proper fighter your going to refresh your shields that often actually going against someone applying decent pressure to your shields its going to go done.Also now you also have Harness magica that's also absorb physical damage which mean now you have two hardening wards stacked. So it seems you really don't know what your talking about.

I speak from actual experience. And others whom have dueled me know full well I know what I am talking about, and can attest to the durability of my shields. Who are you? I wanna know your sorc main since you seem to be so knowledge of sorcs. Come share, hot-shot. Otherwise, you are someone else talking out of your ass like all the other non-sorc mains supporting this garbage thinking they know what's what.


Harness change is completely irrelevant. 6 seconds for each shield stack, utter garbage, I dueled on PTS with 45.6k magic worth of shield stacks with Dampen magic and Hardened for 27k total stack, Stam DKs still pierce through it because stamina is broken. I actually lost durability on PTS, crazy I know. But ofc, you are so knowledge, lol. What a joke. I cant do any damage to them. I cant do any DPS. My 27k shield stack is utterly WORTHLESS. Sorcs are worthless next patch, even the cookie-cutter destro/resto builds. Worthless. Just play a turtle with no oppurtunity to DPS because clowns like you talk out of their asses with no actual experience or testing.

Very true this is.

Currently sorcs are maybe (and maybe not) a little bit ahead of other classes in strict 1v1 scenarios but that´s about it.

The problem is it´s too easy to stay alive on sorc but staying alive is not what gets changed (except for other classes getting dmg buffs). The ability to kill things gets reduced with the sorc changes and with sorc being a class that was always (and is still) absolutely predictable in terms of dmg output that´s just not a good thing.
They should have nerfed mines and make attro nontargetable so you can´t hide inside.

People are upset about turret sorcs yet this playstyle will be the only vaible one after the coming nerfs.