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Poison Feedback: Please make mushrooms desirable

code65536
code65536
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Right now on Live, most mushrooms are worthless ingredients because they contain "Ravage" traits that are useless for potion-making. They're good for leveling alchemy, but not much else.

I had hoped that poison-making would bring these ingredients to the forefront, but I've been disappointed by what I've seen on the PTS.

Example 1: stamina poisons

Made with Ravage Stamina mushrooms:
0JUt5sj.png

Made with Restore Stamina flowers:
9kIklDO.png

I can understand your reasoning behind this: the Ravage poison has a longer negative effect duration, and the Restore poison has a shorter negative effect duration, but a positive (to the user) effect added on.

But in practice, it just means that the Ravage poison made with mushrooms will be virtually useless, and only the Restore poison made with flowers will be useful.

Why? Well, in PvE, there is absolutely zero benefit of increasing the ability costs of monsters and NPCs.

In PvP, while the longer cost duration might seem useful at first glance, it is useful only if your opponent is a stamina user. Since you cannot change poisons mid-combat (unless you slot different poisons on different bars, but that is problematic on its own), the mushroom Damage poisons are therefore less versatile than the flower Drain ones: If a Drain poison doesn't affect your opponent's main resource pool, at least it would restore your own main resource pool. And in even if fighting an stamina-based opponent, losing a little bit of duration on the cost increase is well worth the amount of resources that you get back.

Oh, and even in PvP areas, you will still fight PvE enemies: e.g., Daedra in IC/sewers or guards at keeps and resources.

So while the two types are a bit more balanced in PvP, it would seem that the flower version is still better overall.

Example 2: spell power poisons

Made with negative traits:
JRz4TBY.png

Made with positive traits:
EG9weju.png

Again, we have a similar imbalance. Even in PvP, I don't think a few extra seconds on Minor Cowardice is really worth the loss of that spell damage buff.

Why is this a problem?

It's problematic because ingredients with Ravage traits are already far less desirable than ingredients with Restore traits, and certain flowers can sell for 10x more than mushrooms on the guild markets.

While I can understand the thematic angle that ZOS is going for--with longer negative effect durations on the mushroom poisons--in actual practice, the best poisons are, unintuitively, made from flowers with positive Restore traits rather than mushrooms with Ravage traits.

This will lead to even greater demand for flowers in the player economy instead of fostering more balanced demand between the different ingredient types. If you think flowers are currently overpriced relative to mushrooms, just wait till the new poison system comes in: it'll get even worse.

Possible solutions

One easy solution would be to reverse the effects. For example, poisons created with Restore Stamina flowers will result in Damage Stamina poisons and poisons created with Ravage Stamina mushrooms will result in Drain Stamina poisons. This would make mushrooms the most desirable ingredient for poisons, and flowers the most desirable ingredient for potions.

Alternatively, some adjustment of the effects might help make the choice between the two more meaningful. In particular, it seems counter-intuitive that poisons made with positive-effect ingredients would even be considered poisons in the first place--if potions made from negative-effect mushrooms are utterly useless (they're self-inflicted poisons), why are poisons made from positive-effect flowers so useful? (And arguably, too useful?). A reduction of the durations/potencies of the positive-effect poisons and/or adding a restorative effect to the negative-effect poisons would bring the balance a little bit closer.
Edited by code65536 on May 20, 2016 6:24PM
Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

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  • Rilmarshim
    Rilmarshim
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    >Weapon Abilities
    >WEAPON ABILITIES
    Steel tornado trains: now with taste of poison!
  • Jayne_Doe
    Jayne_Doe
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    I'm surprised to learn that mushrooms will remain "second-class" in relation to flowers in alchemy. I had hoped that poison-making would make mushrooms as valuable as flowers and we'd see an increase in their desirability.
  • Carterboy254
    Carterboy254
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    Can someone tell me the ingredients needed to make the we poisons so I can start gathering them before the dlc is live
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  • WhiteNoiseMaker
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    I'm on board with this. Honestly I think the simplest solution (pun intended!) would be to swap the item ref's for the current negative potions and turn them into poisons. Negative pots never truly had a use, and if ZOS can just run a script to find all negative pots and turn them into poisons, and make the old recipes become poison recipes, I think that'd be a good thing.
  • staracino_ESO
    staracino_ESO
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    As I have said before, the positive traits should apply positive effects when you use them in poisons. Why is it we have to avoid negative traits when making potions, but we need to embrace positive traits when making poisons?
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Couldn't agree more with OP. Poisons are the perfect thing to make the now 'useless' reagants worth something, but (as usual) ZOS just doesn't really seem to have a clue.
    Edited by Lava_Croft on May 21, 2016 12:22AM
  • code65536
    code65536
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    Chris Balser replied to this thread on ESO Live (at around 38 minutes), replying along the lines that dilution would make the mushroom poisons more desirable.

    And I will agree that a lot of this is speculative. Looking at numbers on a screen vs. using the poisons in actual combat.

    But still, many of the negative effect poisons have no use in PvE, which starts them off in a bad place to begin with. And even if the negative-effect and positive-effect poisons varieties are more balanced with each other in PvP, this still means that, relative to mushrooms, flowers have more alchemical value.

    Potions: Flowers
    PvE Poisons: Flowers
    PvP Poisons: Flowers or Mushrooms

    The main concern, I suppose, is that there's no downside (and arguably more upside) to making a poison with positive-effect traits, unlike making a potion with negative-effect traits. And that balance just seems... odd.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

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  • Ep1kMalware
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    Mushrooms are hella desirable. ;)

    I side with OP on this one. poisons are a fantastic update, but they're being implemented shamefully. I have a hard time believing that decisions THIS bad are purely oversight.

    60% drain, AND weapon skills? MOMMA-MIA!
    I wonder if healing springs is a weapon ability. stack that with the 3pc set from AA that make your heals debuff players for 400WD. Guess I'm done with pvp then. -.-

    edit:

    I take it back. The debuff set, 5pc light nightmother's gaze, caltrop, and healing springs sure could get trolly.
    Edited by Ep1kMalware on May 21, 2016 6:30AM
  • Teridaxus
    Teridaxus
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    Saving flowers since beginning of pts and poison...
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Poisons should major with mushrooms and flowers with potions. End of.
  • KenaPKK
    KenaPKK
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    As I have said before, the positive traits should apply positive effects when you use them in poisons. Why is it we have to avoid negative traits when making potions, but we need to embrace positive traits when making poisons?

    EXACTLY THIS
    Kena
    Former Class Rep
    Former Legend GM
    Beta player
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