Game Balance Discussion: The Tank Role and Tanking Experience

Shadesofkin · May 2016

I tend to agree that Taunt needs to work in PvE. There should be absolutely no way for a boss to ignore threat. You want to make it more resistant to threat? Fine, give it the ability to shorten Taunts duration, but never ever ever flat out ignore the taunt.

heavy armor's new passive "Wrath" is a step in the right direction, but it needs more bang for it's buck.

Guppet · May 2016

LinearParadox wrote: »

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to keep this seperate for ease of reading.
Here's a bunch of ideas for mechanics that would raise the value/need for a tank in dungeons.

1. Boss fires a beam/attack of some kind that heals the boss for the amount of damage done AFTER mitigation. Higher mitigation = less healing for the boss. Easier to beat with a tank.
2. Boss does something undesirable/ disruptive (summons an add, heals, CCs, etc) each time he changes targets. Having a tank that can hold aggro and prevent him from switching targets constantly (which he would be programmed to do otherwise) would make the boss easier to defeat.
3. Boss CC locks his current target and deals a large amount of damage to them while also rendering them unhealable meaning their own durability/max health/mitigation would have to sustain them through. The boss would ONLY do this to his current target so having a TANK that could keep the boss TAUNTED could make sure to 'take the bullet' for their team.
4. Boss CC locks EVERYONE BUT his current target, which under most circumstances would usually mean the Healer wouldn't be able to heal so again, the person left up would have to survive by themselves for a certain amount of time. Yes this could be done by some DPS with self-sustain as well, but like I said before they're vulnerable to being burst down since they have low mitigation. This would still favor Tanks in that situation I think.
5. The boss strikes it's current target with a high amount of damage, that damage is then copied, AFTER MITIGATION to all group members. The higher the initial target's mitigation, the less damage everyone else takes. If their mitigation is too low, there's a chance it might burst the entire group, better hope the person the attack his is THE TANK.

ALL THIS... took me about 20 minutes to come up with, on the fly. It's not that f***in hard people -.-

For that first idea, it does not even need to be a beam. Imagine simply a boss doing leeching attacks, healing for the melee damage it does. Your going to want that sucka stuck on a tank.

code65536 · May 2016

LinearParadox wrote: »

This... is not entirely true. If you've run with any TRUE DPS groups, I'm talking three people putting out 20-25K single target and many times that AoE, you'll know that this isn't true.

Oh, I do run with these types of groups all the time. I was careful to avoid absolutes in my post and said never said that a tank is nice in all situations--only many. For example, I went helm-farming in vCoH recently. I was the tank, and after the first run (which I tanked only because someone wanted no-death, so it was better to play it safe), I switched to DD and the rest of our runs were 3D/1H, and yes, it was easier this way. The problem with vCoH is that much of the boss damage is not affected by taunt. The most dangerous thing about the Spider boss is her roaming AoE, which targets randomly. The most dangerous thing about the Illambris combination boss are their AoEs, which, again, is random. The most dangerous thing about the penultimate boss is her pull, which affects everyone. And all of Nerien'eth's attacks ignore taunt and are indiscriminate. The only time you need a tank in vCoH is if you're doing the gold key challenge and need to keep those wraiths alive (they hit hard). But if you're just burning him, you can push him to the sword stage without him ever moving from his initial spawn spot (another reason why vCoH is best tankless--the boss conveniently stays still).

Similarly, vet Wayrest is another dungeon where a tank is useless (esp. for Garron--the lich boss you mentioned), though I would prefer a tank for the final boss. The example that you gave with Garron is a bit extreme because not only does he hit like a wet noodle, he also stays nicely in place--no tank needed to keep him steady--allowing the DDs to optimize their DPS. Even with just 2 DDs (I've 2-manned that dungeon), he's dead before he does his teleport and heal-check attack. And, of course, vet Darkshade is the usual example that people give of tankless content (except for the alits, but many people skip them).

On the whole, though, it is still nice to have a tank. You really, really want to have a tank for the daedroth boss in vet Banished, for Blood Spawn and Praxin (to turn his lines away from the group) in vet Spindle, for all three of the major bosses in vet Fungal (the final boss's ranged attack can almost 1-shot a DD and having the healer burst-heal through each one will kill the healer's resources, so a range-taunting tank is a must), and for a number of bosses in vet Elden (the twilight boss's untelegraphed basic attacks can 2-shot people if not tanked). And of course, for vCoA, vWGT, and vICP. Of the 10 vet dungeons, there are only 3 that I'd opt to do tankless if given the choice: vWS (still be nice to have a tank for the final boss), vDC (someone taunting the centurions in the army would be nice), and vCoH (but not if we need the ghosts for the pledge).

ThatNeonZebraAgain · May 2016

One thing I don't see mentioned much as part of the problem with tanking is the simple fact that Health, as a stat, sucks. Health needs to be changed so that it matters as much as Magicka or Stamina. Health is supposed to be the 'tank stat,' but it's utility is much less than the other two; stacking Health gets you nothing and actually takes away from your damage and capacity to manage resources for abilities/blocking/etc. In terms of content and fight mechanics (which is also part of the problem with tanking), you really only need 23-27k health to tank any content in the game; any more than that is a liability.

Solutions:

Make something scale with Health. My favorite idea so far is for Health to give you a reduction in all abilities and action costs (including block, break free, dodgeroll, etc). I don't know what the numbers should be, but it should be comparable to the increase in damage that maxing out mag/stam can bring, as well as help make up somewhat for having smaller resource pools. Similar to how Magicka/Stamina increase your damage, there needs to be a reason to invest in the Health stat beyond being a meat shield with no sustain.
Simply remove damage scaling from Magicka/Stamina.

Woeler · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

The problem with that is now that you are both a lesser Tank than others AND a lesser DPS. In that case, assuming every player wishes to optimize, why would you have either role. You won't be as tanky as a full tank, and you'll NEVER be able to deal as much damage as a pure DPS.

Absolutely not true. You can run a maxed dps build and a maxed tank build with all points in stamina. Simply switching skills and gear can give you the max of both.

I have tanked all content in this game including vmol with no problems and I can switch to a full dps build anytime I want.

You're not any more tanky than I am just because I can switch to dps and you can't. I have just distributed my attributes more effectively both in points and enchants.

The only thing I might want to switch for full optimization is my mundus stone, but that is not a problem since I've tanked vmol accidentally with the thief mundus.

MasterSpatula · May 2016

Any dungeon that has bosses that are immune to taunts should also have bosses where a tank is absolutely essential. There also needs to be content with penalties for killing it too fast.

Really, anything they could do to step away from the DPS race is welcome to me, and that goes for the solo content as well.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

I put all attributes into stamina and all CP into Magic management. I guess that I can use bow and staff!

Rickter · May 2016

Leave my tanking alone. Between you guys and wrobel annihilating the cp im about to lose my mind.

Daz_dingoeb17_ESO · May 2016

I believe they avoid tanks being tanky being afraid what will happen to pvp but that is no reason to not have a tank.
If you can be whoever you want to be why not be a character that feels no pain and is hard as a mountain to move. If it's all about character progression then we should be able to make distinct choices on how our character excels and at the same time accept that he won't excel in something else. Give role a more distinct character by making a clear difference between armor types. Add variables to CP perks. For example if a perk gives armor make it so those wearing heavy armor gain way more than other armor type wearers.
Also on pvp add a buff that makes heavy armor wearers to do less damage and of course compensate by allowing them to fulfill their tanky role on pvp and also giving them an ap gain per hits taken while wearing 5 or more heavy armor pieces just like healers gain ap by healing so tanks should get ap for tanking. Not everyone on the battlefield should be a DPS, some would prefer to be a tank that other players would think twice about attacking.

Kozai · May 2016

LinearParadox wrote: »

Anyone who thinks 3DPS is 'hardmode' has not seen what three top-tier DPS can do.
Bosses die in typically under 20 seconds and often don't even reach their first 'mechanic', trash pulls last no more than 5 seconds, and the dungeon practically runs on autopilot.

Some will say that's because dungeons are too easy, which may be partially true, but I personally believe it's largely due to the insanely high ceiling on DPS cappability; it makes it impossible to balance boss health; lower tier geared players will struggle if it's balanced for those 30K single target monster DPS, AND inversely the dungeons become a laughable cakewalk if they're balanced to the other end of the spectrum. If you try to aim for a middle point, you get outliers on both sides. The span of DPS ability is simply too wide to tune boss health properly.
My suggestion here would be mechanics. If you have to, make the boss invulnerable every so often or at certain health%s that FORCE the mechanics to trigger, give them attacks that only a Tank can absorb, have them summon adds that need to be burned down before the boss is vulnerable again meanwhile making the boss 'frenzy' or something requiring a tank to draw aggro, throw in a SINGLE TARGET heal check that's nearly impossible to pass unless that single target has high mitigation, etc. I can come up with dozens of ideas and I'm sure the people here can too so let's hear em!

I agree, the range of dps people are able to put out is huge. Of my 3 RL friends in the game who I play with a lot, the one with the most hours in the game also struggles the most with mechanics. He typically burns 50-100 soul gems getting a VR level, doing solo PvE quest content, despite having 8 VR characters. Despite our working with him, I'd be surprised if he ever breaks 10k dps. The best of the 4 of us has recently squeaked past 20k. There are a few vet dungeons we basically can't do, and when I've been tanking NORMAL random dungeons for straight PUG groups, not vet, I've had close to 1 in 10 fail, meaning we all gave up because it was clear we weren't going to beat it.

I've also been in groups with great dps, and see why some people are puzzled when I've asked how to get past certain vet boss mechanics on the forums, because the bosses got vaporized before they had a chance to do them more than once, if that.

Any adjustment of difficulty or boss hit points or boss damage upward will cause even more PUG groups to fail, and more people to get discouraged in the game. I have several friends who tried GW2 with us, and after a couple of tries at their dungeons, which have more of a difficulty cliff than a difficulty curve, gave up the game. Some people thrive on trying things like that dozens of times to get past it, but IMHO that is not a majority of players, and there is some content like vMA for them. Obviously a downwards adjustment won't help convince people tanks are needed.

I agree mechanics are the answer, and I can even give one example of a good mechanic. To get the gold key in vet Banished Cells, it is helpful for the tank to pull Daedroth away from the last boss, so the dps can focus on the boss without killing the Daedroth, then the tank to bring them back for AoEs when there are three out. Mob positioning like that to make things easier is a tool a tank has that is hard without one. Another not quite as good one is Wavecutter in normal Blackheart Haven, she has a multitarget beam that kills most people in a party, but it can be interrupted by a bash. The tank has to take fairly heavy melee hits, and be in position to do the bash. It can also be ranged interrupted, so not quite as crucial to use a tank for this, but the idea is there.

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank. There are a few adds, but they come out in groups, which tanks can't do much about, and the boss ignores you. Similarly, in normal Vollenfell, there are a couple of bosses that seem to ignore taunts, so I'm chasing them around doing my 3-5k dps if I'm lucky and feeling like my only significant contribution is the resistance debuff from Pierce. Having a boss once in awhile attack someone else makes the fights interesting, but if they are completely ignoring me for the whole fight, I don't feel terribly useful. Avoid these mechanics.

CP5 · May 2016

Another thing that comes to mind and may be stopping zos from buffing tanks is what happened when the game launched. The old dk's and sorc's stacking several bat swarms in pvp becoming next to unkillable. But from what I recall those were all light armor builds with sword and shield, but again it could be what they are trying to avoid, despite the fact that what we're looking for isn't related to that old problem.

Inarre · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

Krozen · May 2016

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

CP5 · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

How do you feel about guard keeping the whole "no stamina regen while active" part?

Krozen · May 2016

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

How do you feel about guard keeping the whole "no stamina regen while active" part?

I feel that it might be a little too harsh. Maybe cut it down to 25% regen, but still give them something. That said, a Tank can still be given stamina by Templars, so it might encourage the same type of thing as a Medic/Heavy combination in TF2.

CP5 · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

How do you feel about guard keeping the whole "no stamina regen while active" part?

I feel that it might be a little too harsh. Maybe cut it down to 25% regen, but still give them something. That said, a Tank can still be given stamina by Templars, so it might encourage the same type of thing as a Medic/Heavy combination in TF2.

Good point, but I don't think templars like the title of 'pocket stamina monkies' that much.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

How do you feel about guard keeping the whole "no stamina regen while active" part?

I feel that it might be a little too harsh. Maybe cut it down to 25% regen, but still give them something. That said, a Tank can still be given stamina by Templars, so it might encourage the same type of thing as a Medic/Heavy combination in TF2.

Good point, but I don't think templars like the title of 'pocket stamina monkies' that much.

Not to mention that some Templars want to be the tank not the battery. The more I think about the problem of attribute scaling, the more it occurs to me that increased health should boost all regeneration. Regeneration is a staple of tanking in this game. Health is the tank attribute. It stands to reason that you wouldn't want tanking to push dps up too much, but giving better regeneration (mag and stam) would allow for the 'slow and steady wins the race' kind of style that tanks would be involved in.

NBrookus · May 2016

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank.

Unless it's been "fixed," Engine Guardian can be tanked by a magicka DK to hold him in place for a faster burn. It's been a while since I've tanked DSC and they've changed the relevant skill since.

(And yes I am being vague because it's like discovering an Easter egg.)

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

Healers are the most useless role imo. Good dps can self sustain, and can kill stuff before anything becomes an issue. I'd rather run with 3 dps and a tank that can cc ads and pull them into aoes. This is my preferred setup for prison. But when the game gets nerfed over and over, dps will continue to be the most important role.

And in a way, it is. Without good dps the healers and tanks ARE useless because the only way through pve content is by killing your way through. If the dps is bad, and always dead, you're going to be there a while. Content needs to be BUFFED if you want to see any type of role equality. More nerfs = less demand.

Every player in this game has access to self heals. Tanks are underrated imo, I just don't see many good ones. No matter what, it's always a team effort. If your tanking, and running the boss around the room like a chicken with his head cut off, and you die, I'll breath a sigh of relief and solo the boss in peace. If you lock in adds with talons, and pull casters into aoes with your chains, I'll kick any healer to make room for you in my group

TheDarkShadow · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Without good dps the healers and tanks ARE useless because the only way through pve content is by killing your way through. If the dps is bad, and always dead, you're going to be there a while.

This. This is one of the reason I HATE tanking in random group. I feel like I can't decided the fate of my own and have to pray that the DDs are decent and at least pass the dps check mechanic. One time I tanked a vBanished Cell, and we struggled thru the dungeon in snail speed, at the end I had to switch to dps at last boss because the DDs just couldn't kill the daedroth fast enough and I end up tanking 5 daedroths while boss kept healing up cause DD also kept missing the orbs. Sometime it feel so hopeless and frustrating as a tank watching your DD wrecking blow in trash pull, light attack boss, and running around like a headless chicken cause they don't have range and die immediately in red when they try gap close to the boss.

Krozen · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Healers are the most useless role imo. Good dps can self sustain, and can kill stuff before anything becomes an issue. I'd rather run with 3 dps and a tank that can cc ads and pull them into aoes. This is my preferred setup for prison. But when the game gets nerfed over and over, dps will continue to be the most important role.

And in a way, it is. Without good dps the healers and tanks ARE useless because the only way through pve content is by killing your way through. If the dps is bad, and always dead, you're going to be there a while. Content needs to be BUFFED if you want to see any type of role equality. More nerfs = less demand.

Every player in this game has access to self heals. Tanks are underrated imo, I just don't see many good ones. No matter what, it's always a team effort. If your tanking, and running the boss around the room like a chicken with his head cut off, and you die, I'll breath a sigh of relief and solo the boss in peace. If you lock in adds with talons, and pull casters into aoes with your chains, I'll kick any healer to make room for you in my group

This here is a great point! A good portion of role identity is lost within content that doesn't need anything more than the "kill them first" strategy. That said, if tougher content is to be introduced, there needs to be more that the Tanks can do. For one, taunt needs to be at least semi-consistant, with nothing that can completely ignore it. Maybe some kind of AoE taunt, depending on how content is implimented. Second, Health needs something more to it.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

1

Inarre wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

I know that the Tanking thread was done by ZOS a while ago,which I thank them for, but I think we need to address the role of Tanks in a game dominated by DPS. For a long time now, DPS has been by far the dominant role, and I don't mean just by population percentage. In the PvE setting, many of the dungeons, including their Veteran incarnations, are run most effectively by 3 DPS and a Healer, completely ignoring the Tank role. Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank. In the PvP environment Tanks are always dead weight as they cannot deal damage. At best, a Tank will cause an enemy DPS to use resources, but Tanks will already have fewer resources than a DPS. Even in a best case scenario, accounting for resource regeneration and potions, the DPS will still eliminate a Tank. Overall, the endgame Tank Experience is very slow and tedious on their own, and nearly completely obsolete in a group. While I appreciate the changes to Heavy Armour coming up in the Dark Brotherhood patch, i believe there should be more done to give the Tank Role more. I have a few ideas, and I know that the Tank community will have some as well, so I would like to start this thread as both a brain storm and awareness thread for Zenimax.

I think the changes to guard will make some interesting tank builds in pvp next patch.

I had completely forgotten about the Guard changes! Thank you for that reminder. That is, indeed the type of tools Tanks need for PvP.

How do you feel about guard keeping the whole "no stamina regen while active" part?

I feel that it might be a little too harsh. Maybe cut it down to 25% regen, but still give them something. That said, a Tank can still be given stamina by Templars, so it might encourage the same type of thing as a Medic/Heavy combination in TF2.

Good point, but I don't think templars like the title of 'pocket stamina monkies' that much.

Not to mention that some Templars want to be the tank not the battery. The more I think about the problem of attribute scaling, the more it occurs to me that increased health should boost all regeneration. Regeneration is a staple of tanking in this game. Health is the tank attribute. It stands to reason that you wouldn't want tanking to push dps up too much, but giving better regeneration (mag and stam) would allow for the 'slow and steady wins the race' kind of style that tanks would be involved in.

Which is where this comes in. With more difficult content, this would not only give Tanks a nice boost because they specialize into Health, it would also give the other rolls small buffs as well to help with the increased difficulty. Every character tends to take a few points in Health, to my knowledge at least.

To continue this idea, I would suggest that there be content (or more content, idk if it exists really) for a group between Dungons and Trials. Maybe 8-man dungons of some sort?

hamgatan · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

Taunt Affects Everything:One of my biggest complaints in PvE is that there are some bosses that can simply ignore Taunt effects.

There's ways around it. For example everyone's under the impression that Grobull's bubble can't be penetrated (and for the most part it can't.. however whilst Grobull reflects everything back at the caster I can tell you plain and simple I can still throw Inner Fire at Grobull and pull him around a room even though he's not supposed to be tauntable. Same goes for Mephala. Inner Fire seems quite useless on her and she seems to run off frequently.. but Pierce Armor will hold her in place.

This is one of my older videos back when I was specced in pure tank build.. skip to 4:30 to see the Grobull fight

[video]

https://youtu.be/0hhlYhOek74[/video]

Krozen wrote: »

The problem with that is now that you are both a lesser Tank than others AND a lesser DPS. In that case, assuming every player wishes to optimize, why would you have either role. You won't be as tanky as a full tank, and you'll NEVER be able to deal as much damage as a pure DPS.

This is not even remotely true. I run a build now that's still fairly similar to my original dedicated Tank Build.. Yes I have to work a little harder with this build and be more mindful of whats going on around me.. but if I want to DD or even jump into PvP I swap gear sets, swap skills (and maybe CP depending..) and off i trot. I still have 36/33k Resist as a Tank.. can still tank every dungeon in the game..

LinearParadox wrote: »

The only reward a good tank gets is in their own satisfaction.

I swear the dungeon loot rewards are intrinsically linked to DPS performance as well. 90% of the time I hit dungeons the DPS's get the helm drops and I get Laurel.... woooo.... This seems to be the case in hundreds of dungeon runs I've tanked.

code65536 wrote: »

In contrast, the bad tanks that I've met tend to be single-build. They either just taunt and hold and lack the perspective needed to know how to support the group or they are using a build copied from somewhere without understanding how to play the role of tank.

I used to run a single build. It was OP as ****. Seriously I could take hits from Mantikora's slash and only lose 1/3 of my health. But I got bored with it. It was too easy to permablock and taunt on (even after the regen nerfs). The issue isn't so much bad tanks these days.. generally most dedicated Tanks (that stuck with it) are fairly good at it - its PUG DPS's that are the issue.. they're abundant and this is why I don't usually go to zone to find groups. Like you I ran vFG the other day and had PUG problems.. DPS's that wouldn't hit the same shadow image on Gamayne Bandu to release the pinned player.. Rezzing DPS's constantly that kept dying from adds.. Ran with another FAR more competent group an hour later and breezed it in a super quick speed run.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

If you have a Tank that tries to heal, or do DPS, he should become an automatic fail.

Say What? If I switch to DPS Gear on my build (and adjust a few CP) I do 20-25k Single Target DPS! Are you saying thats a failure? I can PvP quite happily with a few adjustments as well.. 4.5k wep damage fully buffed (I'd hit 5K if I had a Kena Helm) Sure I'm not as tanky as when I had 75 Points in the Steed and had close on 40k Resist values with the Shield passives but I can still run every dungeon in the game.. all I've done is change my tactics, strategy and rotations to suit the slightly lesser mitigation. You know.. adapted?

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Why would a dps slot a taunt when there is already a tank in the group. The point in my post is "everyone can be a tank" if they know what they are doing, not "everyone in a group is a tank".

Because as I said above some DPS's are seriously herp-la-derp.. They have no idea how much it pisses us off.

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank. There are a few adds, but they come out in groups, which tanks can't do much about, and the boss ignores you.

Actually I switch up several skills for that fight.. but for the adds its easy... chains.... chains... chains... choking talons. OK DPS's do your thing. Run into Engine Guardian... hit pierce armor... not for the taunt.. but for minor maim. A Tank can still play a semi supportive role in this case.. I still manage ranged about 8-10k DPS in full Tank Gear and mostly tank skills.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

Take from this what you will:

My favorite tank I do dungeons with, does exactly what I mentiomed above. I have great dps/sustain, sure. But how she manipulates the adds saves so many resources and cuts the timenspent killihg them to a third of what it used to be. When shes not on, I que as a tank. not because it's faster, simply because I gave up trying to chase bosses around thenroom. its wasteful of resources and a huge time dump for everybody.

Often though, we run randoms all day together, I que as a healer (unless its something like darkshade and Infeel like pug dps wont handle the sustain demands).We can 2 man pretty jmuch anythingl ky vigor tooltips for 22k, so we are usualky side by side. I keep her healed, and she manipulates adds. Well take anyone, heavy armour resto we dont care. some stick in our group since we chain que dungeons.

Others dont care, and are simply along for the ride. Last night we did city of ash, vet and the only teamate that died was the healer (suprise?). He was in heavy armour with a bow,nvr 8 or 9. Tanks, don't sell yourselves short. You can be an incredible asset to a team, it just really sucks when you get "people who dont care" that can take this kind of group buff for granted.

I'm not entirely against healers, I lovem for trials. Most of them just dont add much to the team. Maybe they could expand the resto staff tree to give support buffs. Sets like spellpower cure are awesome and welcomed, but only a good start. I've had awesome healers that mostly biffed thengroup and dpsd. They also really benefit the newer and mote casual players, but by the time you're completing endgame content you cant quite remember what 'healer' means.

my motto in group chat is: It's never the healer's fault. SUSTAIN. Healers are package deal pf varying buffs, and therefore should never be blamed. ZOS needs to kick it in gear, buff up cotent some, and tailor item sets for the support/buff roll so that healers can excel at something. Changing our perspective of healers, to 'support' classes, and giving them the tools they need. This would do so much for eso ad a whole. It would help people appriciate healers more, and add more variety than what the status quo had to offer. I think it may help force people to sustain, and as a consequence, improve their gameplay. Zenimax dropped the ball on the healer role in this game, and I think it needs a serious overhaul.

just my .02¢
Ep1k

Guppet · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Take from this what you will:

My favorite tank I do dungeons with, does exactly what I mentiomed above. I have great dps/sustain, sure. But how she manipulates the adds saves so many resources and cuts the timenspent killihg them to a third of what it used to be. When shes not on, I que as a tank. not because it's faster, simply because I gave up trying to chase bosses around thenroom. its wasteful of resources and a huge time dump for everybody.

Often though, we run randoms all day together, I que as a healer (unless its something like darkshade and Infeel like pug dps wont handle the sustain demands).We can 2 man pretty jmuch anythingl ky vigor tooltips for 22k, so we are usualky side by side. I keep her healed, and she manipulates adds. Well take anyone, heavy armour resto we dont care. some stick in our group since we chain que dungeons.

Others dont care, and are simply along for the ride. Last night we did city of ash, vet and the only teamate that died was the healer (suprise?). He was in heavy armour with a bow,nvr 8 or 9. Tanks, don't sell yourselves short. You can be an incredible asset to a team, it just really sucks when you get "people who dont care" that can take this kind of group buff for granted.

I'm not entirely against healers, I lovem for trials. Most of them just dont add much to the team. Maybe they could expand the resto staff tree to give support buffs. Sets like spellpower cure are awesome and welcomed, but only a good start. I've had awesome healers that mostly biffed thengroup and dpsd. They also really benefit the newer and mote casual players, but by the time you're completing endgame content you cant quite remember what 'healer' means.

my motto in group chat is: It's never the healer's fault. SUSTAIN. Healers are package deal pf varying buffs, and therefore should never be blamed. ZOS needs to kick it in gear, buff up cotent some, and tailor item sets for the support/buff roll so that healers can excel at something. Changing our perspective of healers, to 'support' classes, and giving them the tools they need. This would do so much for eso ad a whole. It would help people appriciate healers more, and add more variety than what the status quo had to offer. I think it may help force people to sustain, and as a consequence, improve their gameplay. Zenimax dropped the ball on the healer role in this game, and I think it needs a serious overhaul.

just my .02¢
Ep1k

That may be true for really high end players. But by definition they are the minority.

Of the past 20 or so dungeons I have ran as healer, I'd say one would have been fine without me healing. Healers do DPS in this game as well as heal, so even that group lost nothing by having me in it.

So 1 of 20 odd would be able to function with no dedicated healer. Compare that with at least half of them needing me to do the AOE dps, since the actual dps don't do anything but single target.

Don't try suggesting that healers should be the ones not needed.

If this game has any issue at all it's the massive disparity between skilled DPS and unskilled DPS.

Balance in this game needs to be around the average group, the average player. Most people coming here are not average, they are well above it.

To come here means you take the game seriously enough to spend non gaming time thinking about the game. If you take it that seriously, chances are you at least try to improve.

In the very same high end player group, they often say tanks aren't needed. But your arguing against that, then claim healers aren't needed. That's like a bullied kid saying don't bully me, be my friend, now as friends lets go bully that guy.

hamgatan · May 2016

No its not even true for high end players.. Healers play a bloody underrated role. Especially in things like resource intensive fights. They don't just spam BOL and Healing Springs..

My sustains ok. I can manage and self heal fine as a Tank but seriously whenever I get a dose of Shards or Orbs I'm extremely grateful as they are crucial to maintaining sustain in a game that's had the regeneration aspect nerfed to kingdom come. It gives me more resources to do more. An extra bit of magicka to throw Talons on some adds.. an extra bit of stamina to drop Caltrops around me..

Plus add a few wards.. circle of protections.. oh and not to mention keeping their own arses alive in the process..

Guppet wrote: »

If this game has any issue at all it's the massive disparity between skilled DPS and unskilled DPS.

^^^ THAT!

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

Guppet, it seems like you misunderstood my target with that last post. Healers and tanks arent overly critical. I run pugs all day while cued as healer, and most do just fine. I think alot of your trouble came from the DDs not doing too well at their role.

The game is not balanced, instead we're on a sliding powerscale that shifts around each update. Instead of wasting dev time on skill tweaks, we could use alot more armour varience in a way that buffs a large variety of play styles that would ,make the, effective. zos's play ad you want campaigne was a total fail. Not because of players, but because of zenimax' inability to facilitate this and make it a reality. Most [players are pretty decent, and adapt fairly well when put into performance groups.

I by no meand intendrd to come out as saying everyone needs to start acting like the top 1%. healers have a place, but they arent as important. I'm trying to suggest that your role should be buffed, and you should have more tools to excel with rather than cookie cutter armour and skill sets. Play how you want shouldnt mean heavy armour resto staff, it should mean 'Good thing zenimax gave me armour sets that added a unique advantage to the skill abilities that support my playstyle and make it viable!'.

There's a reason for a top 1%, 10%, 25%. All I'm saying is they could overhaul healers at support classes. This would be good endgame too. Because all those buff on a min/max build add up. It'd carry the same useful weight in endgame content as it does with a few casual players enjoying a dungeon run with friends. Some people need a 'healer' to constantly fix their mistakes, awesome. Maybe they could make a jewelry set that returns magica whenever you heal someone while they're below 50% health.(It's useful for a heal support style of gameplay). For people who enjoy speedruns, perhaps armour sets similar to spellpower cure, or even sets that buff YOU when teamates are at full health. You know, options.

Most weaker players, will get better and unreliant on healers, if they start running in tripple dps/tank groups. This is the RESULT of many problems. From zenimax not supporting their advertised diversity of gameplay, and in the end forcing a group role with alot of potential into a 1 class 1 skill meta.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

Also the reason I picked on healers vs tanks, EVERY player has access to self heals. Everyone. A tank can do alot more for me by grouping adds, and distracting the boss. Both of these let me kill things faster. In any PVE situation the best way to stay alive is simple. Kill everything before it kills you first. Healing me, when I dont need it, wont kill adds quicker. The immediate threat to my safety doesnt go away any faster. Spellpowercure/combat prayer do help with dps, but with many running dw swords and spc being so grindy not everyone has this.

I favor tanks because they're more likely to help make the bad guys go away. I can dodgeroll, block, and hit rally. I dont need people to do it for me. >.>

Guppet · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Guppet, it seems like you misunderstood my target with that last post. Healers and tanks arent overly critical. I run pugs all day while cued as healer, and most do just fine. I think alot of your trouble came from the DDs not doing too well at their role.

The game is not balanced, instead we're on a sliding powerscale that shifts around each update. Instead of wasting dev time on skill tweaks, we could use alot more armour varience in a way that buffs a large variety of play styles that would ,make the, effective. zos's play ad you want campaigne was a total fail. Not because of players, but because of zenimax' inability to facilitate this and make it a reality. Most [players are pretty decent, and adapt fairly well when put into performance groups.

I by no meand intendrd to come out as saying everyone needs to start acting like the top 1%. healers have a place, but they arent as important. I'm trying to suggest that your role should be buffed, and you should have more tools to excel with rather than cookie cutter armour and skill sets. Play how you want shouldnt mean heavy armour resto staff, it should mean 'Good thing zenimax gave me armour sets that added a unique advantage to the skill abilities that support my playstyle and make it viable!'.

There's a reason for a top 1%, 10%, 25%. All I'm saying is they could overhaul healers at support classes. This would be good endgame too. Because all those buff on a min/max build add up. It'd carry the same useful weight in endgame content as it does with a few casual players enjoying a dungeon run with friends. Some people need a 'healer' to constantly fix their mistakes, awesome. Maybe they could make a jewelry set that returns magica whenever you heal someone while they're below 50% health.(It's useful for a heal support style of gameplay). For people who enjoy speedruns, perhaps armour sets similar to spellpower cure, or even sets that buff YOU when teamates are at full health. You know, options.

Most weaker players, will get better and unreliant on healers, if they start running in tripple dps/tank groups. This is the RESULT of many problems. From zenimax not supporting their advertised diversity of gameplay, and in the end forcing a group role with alot of potential into a 1 class 1 skill meta.

Now that's far from my experience. All but one of my recent runs the healer was critical. Many had no real tank but we still got the job done. So that role may not be as critical, which is the whole point of most of these threads.

Your argument flips everything everyone says on its head and assumes it's true.

You also can't get people to improve by running 3 dps and one tank. They need to be quite good to get that to work. They need the healer to get to that point where they are quite good, then when they are good, they can even more easily do without the tank.

If you took 3 dps from the group finder and gave them a tank and no healer, chances are it's going to be a train wreck.

Hey I love tanks, I want them to be important. I like having someone that I can rely on to keep stuff off me and take less damage so all I'm doing is not just healing.

In all honesty though, I have no idea how well a group could perform without a healer, as if I'm in the group they always have one

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

See, this confuses me. All I need to do to not need a healer is slot vigor, stay out of red circles, and dodge roll ocasionally. I don't see any reason why you can't spam breath of life if you'd like. The problem is that's what you're reduced to. There's more than one way to keep people alive, and with pugs I agree, with bad overall dps you need to babysit them with healing spells. There's also crowd control, shields, damage buffs, resource buffs, any many other options.

I guess that's why I like being a DD. I have the most control over how far, and how easily my group will move through a given dungeon.

Guppet · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

See, this confuses me. All I need to do to not need a healer is slot vigor, stay out of red circles, and dodge roll ocasionally. I don't see any reason why you can't spam breath of life if you'd like. The problem is that's what you're reduced to. There's more than one way to keep people alive, and with pugs I agree, with bad overall dps you need to babysit them with healing spells. There's also crowd control, shields, damage buffs, resource buffs, any many other options.

I guess that's why I like being a DD. I have the most control over how far, and how easily my group will move through a given dungeon.

Ah now that's where we come together.

Just like I have no idea how a non healer group works, you have no idea how a group with all terrible dps works.

It's also been my experience that with decent dps, I can do more than heal.

You'll always have at least semi decent dps, due to your participation. You have less opportunity for terrible dps