Should Surge get the Surge treatment? No.

I can picture their thought process, though:

Surge doesn't work on DoTs because then it'd be a bit too OP. But for stamsorcs (who were crying loudly for attention), this means that they are shoehorned into 2H; Flurry and its morphs are treated as DoTs by the game's engine (though this is kinda moot now that Flurry has a healing morph of its own). So, they need to make Surge work with DoTs. But to make it not too OP, they added a 1s cooldown. But then which damage tick during that 1s should get the heal? What if a Caltrops tick "steals" the heal from a Wrecking Blow? So then they just make it a flat value--keep it simple.

And many stamsorcs are happy with this change, apparently (I'm not entirely convinced that this is a good change for them, but whatever).

I'm not sure they set out to nerf Surge, because if they did, it probably would've been in 2.4.0. No, this looks like a rushed attempt at quelling the stamsorc protests that resulted in a poorly-conceived solution with lots of negative side effects that they probably did not fully think through.

What I don't get is why they didn't just make this change on just the Critical Surge morph and kept the status quo on Power Surge.

timidobserver wrote: »

Should all lifetap attacks get the "Surge" treatment? Short answer, no.

I'm glad you agree that the Surge change should be reversed. Thank you for your support

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Should Surge get the Surge treatment? No.

I can picture their thought process, though:

Surge doesn't work on DoTs because then it'd be a bit too OP. But for stamsorcs (who were crying loudly for attention), this means that they are shoehorned into 2H; Flurry and its morphs are treated as DoTs by the game's engine (though this is kinda moot now that Flurry has a healing morph of its own). So, they need to make Surge work with DoTs. But to make it not too OP, they added a 1s cooldown. But then which damage tick during that 1s should get the heal? What if a Caltrops tick "steals" the heal from a Wrecking Blow? So then they just make it a flat value--keep it simple.

And many stamsorcs are happy with this change, apparently (I'm not entirely convinced that this is a good change for them, but whatever).

I'm not sure they set out to nerf Surge, because if they did, it probably would've been in 2.4.0. No, this looks like a rushed attempt at quelling the stamsorc protests that resulted in a poorly-conceived solution with lots of negative side effects that they probably did not fully think through.

What I don't get is why they didn't just make this change on just one of the morphs and kept the status quo on Power Surge.

This change wasn't just made for Stam Sorcs. Mag Sorcs need more reliable healing, too, and the no heals on DOTs thing was a real pain point.

You're kidding right? I use Power Surge as my only healing in vMA and I don't even use Frags in my vMA build. We had (repeat: HAD) reliable healing.

Valrien wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Should Surge get the Surge treatment? No.

I can picture their thought process, though:

Surge doesn't work on DoTs because then it'd be a bit too OP. But for stamsorcs (who were crying loudly for attention), this means that they are shoehorned into 2H; Flurry and its morphs are treated as DoTs by the game's engine (though this is kinda moot now that Flurry has a healing morph of its own). So, they need to make Surge work with DoTs. But to make it not too OP, they added a 1s cooldown. But then which damage tick during that 1s should get the heal? What if a Caltrops tick "steals" the heal from a Wrecking Blow? So then they just make it a flat value--keep it simple.

And many stamsorcs are happy with this change, apparently (I'm not entirely convinced that this is a good change for them, but whatever).

I'm not sure they set out to nerf Surge, because if they did, it probably would've been in 2.4.0. No, this looks like a rushed attempt at quelling the stamsorc protests that resulted in a poorly-conceived solution with lots of negative side effects that they probably did not fully think through.

What I don't get is why they didn't just make this change on just one of the morphs and kept the status quo on Power Surge.

This change wasn't just made for Stam Sorcs. Mag Sorcs need more reliable healing, too, and the no heals on DOTs thing was a real pain point.

You're kidding right? I use Power Surge as my only healing in vMA and I don't even use Frags in my vMA build. We had (repeat: HAD) reliable healing.

She's talking about PvP.

I don't think i need to say anymore. we all already know ZOS is making a freaking mess with the sorc class.

This PTS has been like watching a dog take a *** on a $5000 Persian rug. i'm kinda numb at this point.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Should Surge get the Surge treatment? No.

I can picture their thought process, though:

Surge doesn't work on DoTs because then it'd be a bit too OP. But for stamsorcs (who were crying loudly for attention), this means that they are shoehorned into 2H; Flurry and its morphs are treated as DoTs by the game's engine (though this is kinda moot now that Flurry has a healing morph of its own). So, they need to make Surge work with DoTs. But to make it not too OP, they added a 1s cooldown. But then which damage tick during that 1s should get the heal? What if a Caltrops tick "steals" the heal from a Wrecking Blow? So then they just make it a flat value--keep it simple.

And many stamsorcs are happy with this change, apparently (I'm not entirely convinced that this is a good change for them, but whatever).

I'm not sure they set out to nerf Surge, because if they did, it probably would've been in 2.4.0. No, this looks like a rushed attempt at quelling the stamsorc protests that resulted in a poorly-conceived solution with lots of negative side effects that they probably did not fully think through.

What I don't get is why they didn't just make this change on just one of the morphs and kept the status quo on Power Surge.

This change wasn't just made for Stam Sorcs. Mag Sorcs need more reliable healing, too, and the no heals on DOTs thing was a real pain point.

Emma, as someone who beats you in IC sewers all of the time, trust me when I say it'll get worse for you if the current state of surge doesn't get reverted

nope, those are fun and can be very strong. enemies can try to counter (purge / shields to an extend / dodge / avoid). the new surge is boring and all this is only possible to a lesser extend. might as well combine rapid regen with random skills to give certain classes/weapons/whatever a fixed amount of hps. f*ing boring

i actually kind of like the surge changes. Even for my mag sorc. it basically guarantees a constant heal (remember crushing shock has 3 chances to proc it) and combined with perhaps mutagen can outheal shieldbreaker and provide a constant flow of received healing which seems important to me as a sorc -> shields down -> heavy hit agains health-> all shields up and then i need to receive healing which is very inconstistant with the current surge on live but seems very reliable with the new one. The great thing is that it does not get cut in half in pvp if they would do that it would be useless. atm i don't use it all and prefer entropy but with the changes and since you can have it up longer (you need to recast shields more often so reducing stuff to keep up is important) and the heal is actually a reliable heal (impen i am looking at you) i will use it.

for pve and the only somewhat meaningful content that is about solo survival (maelstrom) the change is bad and is further increased by the shield nerf.... sorcs will not stay the maelstrom gods. they have still their advantages like the crazy overload damage and the big shields in tricky situation but i will much rather play my mag nb or even mag templar there now

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

If you have a flat tire in RL, do you just go around in the parking lot and stab the tires at every other car with a knife, to make it "fair"?
I think you should show the devs why the change is bad in your oppinion instead of suggesting something that will annoy everyone else.

yeah the best change imo would be too automatically make a percentage of damage done in that second returned as healing a bit lower than syphoning or jabs but a good 20% would be okish i guess.

To be clear, the current PTS surge is 2k for power surge, 3k for crit surge. The heal can crit, and is not affected by Battle Spirit(no word from devs of it will stay that way). You need to crit someone with an attack to get the heal (duh, but it needs to be said). The effect does not scale with gear or magicka/physical damage CP. It does scale with crit and healing CP/passives

A magicka sorc In PvP can't really expect to get more than 1.5k HPS out of it, even with crushing shock. Because every time you cast Ward/curse/Mines/streak/det/whatever you're not attacking.

Now, compare surge to Puncturing sweeps in PvE. I regularly heal 4-5k HPS on just 1 targets with that skill. No crit chance RNG. In AE situations, it's a 100%heal every cast. Even radiant glory will outheal power surge, on a full health target. Not to pick on templars, there's also the DK lifetaps and NB funnel, but my v16 NB is stam, and my DK is only 26, so I have less info to go on with other classes

I don't really want other lifetaps nerfed, I'm just explaining that surge is nothing special compared to what other classes have, but it was nerfed hard. And unless it keeps not being reduced by Battle Spirit, it's going to completely stuck in PvP as well as PvE

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

To be clear, the current PTS surge is 2k for power surge, 3k for crit surge. The heal can crit, and is not affected by Battle Spirit(no word from devs of it will stay that way). You need to crit someone with an attack to get the heal (duh, but it needs to be said). The effect does not scale with gear or magicka/physical damage CP. It does scale with crit and healing CP/passives

A magicka sorc In PvP can't really expect to get more than 1.5k HPS out of it, even with crushing shock. Because every time you cast Ward/curse/Mines/streak/det/whatever you're not attacking.

Now, compare surge to Puncturing sweeps in PvE. I regularly heal 4-5k HPS on just 1 targets with that skill. No crit chance RNG. In AE situations, it's a 100%heal every cast. Even radiant glory will outheal power surge, on a full health target. Not to pick on templars, there's also the DK lifetaps and NB funnel, but my v16 NB is stam, and my DK is only 26, so I have less info to go on with other classes

I don't really want other lifetaps nerfed, I'm just explaining that surge is nothing special compared to what other classes have, but it was nerfed hard. And unless it keeps not being reduced by Battle Spirit, it's going to completely stuck in PvP as well as PvE

A couple points...

Now that surge procs on dots, you CAN be "attacking" while casting ward, right? You can be attacking, critting and surge healing from your dots even while cloaked or breaking free from snares, right?

I notice you mention surge in pvp then compare it to puncturing in pve, why the switch?

You emphasize surge not healing when you do other things than attacking (ignoring DOT surging) but you did not mention how much hesling you get from puncturing when not attacking. How much healing does punturing do when casting wards or breaking cc vs the 2-3k possibly for surge from ongoing dot?

How much avg dps do you think surge should produce to make it reasonable? With a layered attack and even decent not maxed crit chance, a crit on something most every sec is not hard at all, 2 out of three practically guaranteed.

How many seconds for surge to replace your entire health pool is fair? 2, 3, 10?

Put another way...

One on one fight.

First pass you hit surge and after x seconds you are at full health as if the fight just started but just barely.

Second pass you forget surge and after x seconds you reach zero health and are dead.

Third pass you remember surge but he steps up his game DOUBLING his damage output and you die barely after x seconds.

In bot& cases you had all the other stuff going for you, only diff is whether you triggered surge.

So what should x be?

Should the eneny be needing to kill you in 5 seconds without you surging and so we set surge hps at maybe 20% of your health.

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Now that surge procs on dots, you CAN be "attacking" while casting ward, right? You can be attacking, critting and surge healing from your dots even while cloaked or breaking free from snares, right?

I notice you mention surge in pvp then compare it to puncturing in pve, why the switch?

How much avg dps do you think surge should produce to make it reasonable? With a layered attack and even decent not maxed crit chance, a crit on something most every sec is not hard at all, 2 out of three practically guaranteed.

Magicka sorc has very few DoTs to use. Ground target DoTs are easy to step out of, and you don't use Entropy with surge. That leaves destructive reach. What exactly do you think is going to be ticking and granting a magicka sorc heals? This is one of the reasons why I single out magicka sorc. Stam has a lot more DoTs to work with

PvP comments are in one paragraph and PvE in another paragraph. That's pretty clear.

I make no calls or judgements about how fast or slow someone should take to be healed to full from lifetaps abilities. I just point out that ALL other classes have lifetaps heals as good or better than Surge is on live. Those abilities are not changed. In fact, they were given a balance pass last patch to their current state.

So why is Surge being singled out to provide only flat value heals? Not even gear-scaled heals (like power whip out SAP has). Just flat heals

Dot effects i usually see involve the lightning bssed ground one, which can get a couple ticks with stuning from streak or knockdown from frags, the ticking damage from the lightning form. Of course, theres also the destro staff walls etc.

Also, maybe YOU dont CURRENTLY use entropy with Surge but CURRENTLY entropy wont proc surge and shields are a plenty. Now that it will AND shields are shorter, i think many may see more value in entropy for the dot plus buff and the higher heal surge.

Now, you ask Why single out this lifetap?

You mention templar jabs, glory and the nb funnel... not gonna search for the dk 9nes you cant bother to either.

WHY ONLY SURGE?

WHY?

Really, you dont ser it?
C'mon, you're pulling our legs right?
You really do see it and are just trolling, right?
No?
Holy crap, you might be serious?

Ok so just in case...

Those other lifetaps are themselves attscks that en deliver some of THEIR damage back. The Dot they cast momentscago dont FUNNEL in with Funnel health.

SURGE itself is not an attack action cast but a pre-cast and it then takes any attack that crits to provide heal. Unlike the others, it can spawn a heal from anyone in an aoe orvaoe dot etc etc as often asbits cooldown allows.

In an original earlier version, dots proc surge was BAD bc there alwaysbwill be a cooldown of even half sec or quarter sec and somtimes the small dot proc would block outbthe bigger cfrags proc when it was percentage. So they cut out dot kept percents.

Now they add back dots but give it avset vslue so my lightning form tick doesnt block my frags tick.

So, the diff is surgevgets flat rate bc it procs on lotsandifferent attacks not as a bonus effect drawing on one specific attack.

Surge has much less in common with funnel, radiant and jabs (not a lot actually) than it does woth the resto staff siphon skills.

Lets look at that one.

Siphon tags a single target and then every attsck against that target yields healing AT A FLAT RATE. Arather low one if i recall. One of the morphs gives you flatb1% or so magica too.

So, Siphon takes all hits on one target and provides flat rate heals yo you and your allies at i believe a lower per trigger level but has casting time, triggers agro on cast and once target dies need recast.

Surge procs on all attacks you crit with and delivers a flat heal back to you until it expires or all enemies do.

And with resto on your back bar, YOU CAN HAVE BOTH going at once.

......

So why flat rate on surge?
To prevent micro crits from screwing big crits AND bc it can be triggered by any attack.

Why not Radiant, Jabs Funnel?
Because they arent the same in very significant way directly concerning the function. They give back based on what they do, not your other attacks.

But, really, c'mon, you knew that already, right?

And also really, you cant orvwont say what level og hps surge needs to be worthwhile atcall?

So it might be judt right or even OP at the pts 2k?

EDIT
KILLER BLADE AND MARK TARGET ETC: these proc for hesl on desth of target from any attsck and hesl you for flat percentage of your health max.

STEVIL wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Now that surge procs on dots, you CAN be "attacking" while casting ward, right? You can be attacking, critting and surge healing from your dots even while cloaked or breaking free from snares, right?

I notice you mention surge in pvp then compare it to puncturing in pve, why the switch?

How much avg dps do you think surge should produce to make it reasonable? With a layered attack and even decent not maxed crit chance, a crit on something most every sec is not hard at all, 2 out of three practically guaranteed.

Magicka sorc has very few DoTs to use. Ground target DoTs are easy to step out of, and you don't use Entropy with surge. That leaves destructive reach. What exactly do you think is going to be ticking and granting a magicka sorc heals? This is one of the reasons why I single out magicka sorc. Stam has a lot more DoTs to work with

PvP comments are in one paragraph and PvE in another paragraph. That's pretty clear.

I make no calls or judgements about how fast or slow someone should take to be healed to full from lifetaps abilities. I just point out that ALL other classes have lifetaps heals as good or better than Surge is on live. Those abilities are not changed. In fact, they were given a balance pass last patch to their current state.

So why is Surge being singled out to provide only flat value heals? Not even gear-scaled heals (like power whip out SAP has). Just flat heals

Dot effects i usually see involve the lightning bssed ground one, which can get a couple ticks with stuning from streak or knockdown from frags, the ticking damage from the lightning form. Of course, theres also the destro staff walls etc.

Also, maybe YOU dont CURRENTLY use entropy with Surge but CURRENTLY entropy wont proc surge and shields are a plenty. Now that it will AND shields are shorter, i think many may see more value in entropy for the dot plus buff and the higher heal surge.

Now, you ask Why single out this lifetap?

You mention templar jabs, glory and the nb funnel... not gonna search for the dk 9nes you cant bother to either.

WHY ONLY SURGE?

[snip some childish attempts at humor and insult]

Those other lifetaps are themselves attscks that en deliver some of THEIR damage back. The Dot they cast momentscago dont FUNNEL in with Funnel health.

So you're suggesting that sorcs do stupid fail-worthy stuff like run Surge plus Entropy, two skills both used mostly for the spell damage buff, just to get a chance every 2 seconds to crit...which will proc a minor heal?

Or that we should work to get heals by stunning people inside of ground target DoTs?

Sweeps delivers massive self healing while attacking, more than Surge does with any attack available to Sorcs outside of Overload. It also has no crit RNG, it just heals on damage dealt. It also doesn't require a second skill to "empower" it to lifetap.

Funnel, same thing. It heals for much less in AE situations, but can heal allies for the same amount, is good in single target situations, and is an ongoing HoT for when you get CC'd

Whip/Lash/Inhale, similar thing. Inhale similar to sweeps, Lash similar to Funnel, but melee range

My point is that these abilities were considered balanced last patch, as they were changed to what they are in the TG patch. They are all better than Surge in DB. And sweeps is a full, 100% heal every second in a large AE situation.

I play both a Magicka Templar and a Crit based Stamina Sorcerer. Both on live have really good self heals with jabs/crit surge but I felt that the Sorcerer was more powerful than the Templar. Why? Because yes the Templar can spam jabs all day and heal (that got a slight nerf earlier) no problem except when you have a couple of mobs that can stun you. You cannot block and cast jabs at the same time for the full effect but with Crit Surge I could block cast Steel Tornado without worry.

I have not played the PTS nerf to Crit Surge but I did think it needed a minor change like they did to the Templar.

STEVIL wrote: »

dtsv217_ESO wrote: »

I play both a Magicka Templar and a Crit based Stamina Sorcerer. Both on live have really good self heals with jabs/crit surge but I felt that the Sorcerer was more powerful than the Templar. Why? Because yes the Templar can spam jabs all day and heal (that got a slight nerf earlier) no problem except when you have a couple of mobs that can stun you. You cannot block and cast jabs at the same time for the full effect but with Crit Surge I could block cast Steel Tornado without worry.

I have not played the PTS nerf to Crit Surge but I did think it needed a minor change like they did to the Templar.

Exactly!

Ok as again no surge fans are willing to write down how much damage in straight up numbers they wsnt surge to hesl ehile they run whatever offense they wish, the "rationale" becomes apparent.

Theyvrefuse to acknowledge the higher similarity to the other surge-like powers that enable lotsa attacks to proc auto-heals and insistbon coming back to other class "best" ATTACK as cpmparisons.

So.. if that is all they will allow thru their filter, thats what we will work with. If thats all they can analyze, lets do that.

Now of course, lets also start threads to give dragonnights somethingbas powerful as cfrags, nightblades something as powerful as empoeered wsrd (on top of annulment) and templars pets.

On its surface, the basic gist of picking single abilities out of other classes and saying ME WANT ONE TOO is flawed since a class is a collection of abilities and those all combine together. Are sorcs willing to give up the passives they like better thsn templar to get templar jabs heal ?

No?

Do thisbis GIMME HIS BEST BUT KEEP MY BETTERS?

The surgies want to compare surge healing levels with jabs, etc.
Jabs is close range only. Jabs wont let me knoek down an enemy at 28m instant cfasgs for cheap while giving heals. JABS wont proc heals off other dots while rolling out of stupid or sering big world boss winding up and keep healing. Jabs wont let me streak-stun multiples while healing. Jabs wont let me cfrag heal and also surge heal.

The argument that sorcs want heavy healing from 20+ m quick cast cfrag plus knockdown bc temps get hvy hesling from close in only jabbing actions is very informative snd convincing and compelling to me.

So, i stand by my position.

The changes to flate rate surge returns plus proc off dot is good.
It is far more consistent with every other power that buffs OTHER ATTACK ACTIONS to heal.
Obviously, the value may need tweaking based on playtest, but on cursory examination it does not appear out of whack with its companions when frequency*heal is considered.

YMMV and clearly does but no argument is ot seems to me capsble of swaying surgies who wont even put a number on how much healing the backbar 1-pre-cast click should do over its 33sec duration.

Right now, new version, at a base 2k, if i give a generous assume less competent player 2 procs in 3 sec avg thats oh 44k healing over the 33 secs without any cp in play. Thats replacing a 20k health pool twice and some change for one click then just run offense.

Aside - i do not get those claiming ground based dots in pve are somehow vety limited in usefulnesd or unreliable is mindboggling. The idea that jabs/sweeps is good r great for reliable healing but saying its too hard to drop an ongoing aoe dot on opponents and keep them in the area or close enough fot your own rlecttic form to proc damage on melee enemies is just... incredible.

But we will ser how the playtest pans out.

It's lovely how you cherry-pick the posts you respond to. Must make it so much easier to continue with your drivel about "pre-cast" (did you miss the post where I point out how ridiculous it is that you consider that to be advantageous?) or "nobody is providing numbers" (again, did you miss my post in the other thread where I did provide numbers?) when you conveniently ignore the posts that contradict your views.

You keep repeating the same thing again and again. And when others rebut your nonsense, you ignore them and continue repeating the same faulty arguments.

And you wonder why you aren't swaying anyone's opinions?

Ryuho wrote: »

From pve perspective yeah I agree that surge changes are really bad, you could get insane heals as stamina sorc doing pve content, tornadoing your way tru mobs waves.. With flat values and 1s cooldown you will be forced to use vigor probably and more dodge rolls to keep urself alive. So pve will be harder.

But from pvp perspective, fightning vs som1 7/7 impenetrable geared your surge healed you for crap values, that's the true.. With flat 3k heal you don't care about som1 with 7/7 impenetrable you will be always healed, and actually on PTS crit surge heals 3k, which is nice amount.. 3k heal evry 1s yes pls!

Also even for magicka sorcs, power surge heals around 2k on PTS.. It's more than enough to mitigate shieldbreaker spam, place on som1 entropy + destro reach lets say and you are free to burst him down, because u will get 2k heal evry 1 s..

I see potential in pvp, but as I wrote those changes are not good for pve..

Funny you mention Vigor. New Surge is stronger then vigor, ~0.8k more hps. Its a little bit less reliable, but it plays out as quite a strong HoT, that has like 8 time the duration of vigor.