Power Extraction needs a little something extra.

KenaPKK · May 2016

For those who are unfamiliar, Power Extraction is the stamina morph of Nightblades' last siphoning skill, the magicka morph of which is Sap Essence. Sap Essence is a super useful magicka ability, but its other morph has been lacking in comparison for a long, long time.

Changing the damage type to disease is a huge step forward for the ability. Thank you ZOS for that.

However, I feel that the ability needs an extra component to make it competitive against the likes of Steel Tornado and Bombard for NBs' choice of AoE damage.

I do not necessarily believe that Power Extraction needs a damage buff. It should deal more damage than Bombard or Steel Tornado outside of execute range but less damage than Steel Tornado in execute range, but the damage is beside the point. I believe it needs a utility component to make it competitive.

What type of utility would be fitting for stamblades' signature AoE skill? Mageblades love their healing, but is that what stamblades would want -- a small heal per enemy hit on their AoE? A snare (god I don't want more snares in the game...)? A bleed? Apply minor penetration debuff? Apply that minor buff that makes the target take 8% more damage?

Got input or another idea? Share.

Laguz · May 2016

Minor fracture and minor maim.

Sunburnt_Penguin · May 2016

That minor comes from Relentless Focus which I always keep up due to the +10% stamina so it seems kinda wasted on PE as well.

A damage or healing debuff seems logical to me. It could also add healing done to the user which kinda follows the "extraction" concept.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

That minor comes from Relentless Focus which I always keep up due to the +10% stamina so it seems kinda wasted on PE as well.

A damage or healing debuff seems logical to me. It could also add healing done to the user which kinda follows the "extraction" concept.

Relentless gives you an 8% increase to damage dealt.

I mentioned an 8% increased damage taken debuff applied to the enemy.

These are separate things which I think would be nice to have in the kit.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Laguz wrote: »

Minor fracture and minor maim.

Ah, those are the names I couldn't remember. Thanks. I like the idea of PE weakening and debuffing a group of enemies so that my group can deal more damage to them, extracting their strength more or less. Hmmm.

Sunburnt_Penguin · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

That minor comes from Relentless Focus which I always keep up due to the +10% stamina so it seems kinda wasted on PE as well.

A damage or healing debuff seems logical to me. It could also add healing done to the user which kinda follows the "extraction" concept.

Relentless gives you an 8% increase to damage dealt.

I mentioned an 8% increased damage taken debuff applied to the enemy.

These are separate things which I think would be nice to have in the kit.

Ah I read it wrong, it's early! Yeah, that would be good for group play as an alternative to the other AOEs

dday3six · May 2016

I think the only thing that would make me use Power Extraction is if it had some sort of Stamina return.

Gottbeard · May 2016

Well it is now a non-weapon dependant aoe with a 10 percent chance to apply minor defile that buffs your weapon damage and triggers faster ultimate generation through siphoning passives a Stam blade is not used to triggering on a patch where Stam blade recieved a very powerful turn and burn ultimate. I don't think it is doing to bad.

vontariel · May 2016

It's in the name of skill Power Extraction.

This should render targets powerless, while enhancing our own capabilities.
While I`m sure, that old extraction (+x weapon damage for every hitted enemy) won't come back, we can focus on finding something cool on it's place

First idea, would be to give it cool component like Minor/Major Maim (decrease enemy damage output), or one of new effects that increases skills costs (30%/60% it is if i remember correctly). It would certainly made it more desired in PvP than steel tornado. But there is problem with this approach: after initial hit, i see no reason not to use bombard/steel tornado, since additional casts will only refresh, not strengthen the effect.

Second idea, would be to give this skill resource drain mechanic. Every hit will give us X stamina, while draining Y stamina and magicka from hitted targets, and we can sap more stamina than our pool. But fun part starts with new buff,overflow.
I will balance X to level, that ~4 targets are refunding cast, allowing overflow to happen in first place. Also X<Y. Potential problem i see is balancing X and Y values for this skill not to be OP or UP. Remember, AoE caps are still in game

Overflow - While your stamina is over limit, you gain major berserk (30% increase in damage output), you heal for 5% of dealt damage, but all your skills cost is increased to 200% (including ultimate and magicka).

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2016

Gottbeard wrote: »

Well it is now a non-weapon dependant aoe with a 10 percent chance to apply minor defile that buffs your weapon damage and triggers faster ultimate generation through siphoning passives a Stam blade is not used to triggering on a patch where Stam blade recieved a very powerful turn and burn ultimate. I don't think it is doing to bad.

For pvp you're right, it's nice for tanky stamblades with 1h/shield + 2h. But for pve most of what you listed is useless. You will run with dual wield anyway, minor defile won't do anything against most trash groups, the weapon damage buff doesn't stack with potions since the Tamriel Unlimited patch.
So some kind of debuff to increase the damage against the targets it would be nice. Another possibility would be adding minor force to it.

acw37162 · May 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Gottbeard wrote: »

Well it is now a non-weapon dependant aoe with a 10 percent chance to apply minor defile that buffs your weapon damage and triggers faster ultimate generation through siphoning passives a Stam blade is not used to triggering on a patch where Stam blade recieved a very powerful turn and burn ultimate. I don't think it is doing to bad.

For pvp you're right, it's nice for tanky stamblades with 1h/shield + 2h. But for pve most of what you listed is useless. You will run with dual wield anyway, minor defile won't do anything against most trash groups, the weapon damage buff doesn't stack with potions since the Tamriel Unlimited patch.
So some kind of debuff to increase the damage against the targets it would be nice. Another possibility would be adding minor force to it.

It's easily as useful as steel tornado now the disease damage is a nice add

DDuke · May 2016

To be honest, the whole ability should be revamped to something more useful & unique.

How come the stealth oriented class of this MMO cannot buff himself with Major Brutality in stealth - not without slotting a 2H or using a potion?

The very least ZOS could do is make this ability:

Grant Major Brutality, even if no target is hit.
Not break stealth when used, except if it hits a target.

Make these changes & I'll consider slotting this skill over the superior damage/range Steel Tornado.

Lyar09 · May 2016

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

That's how it should be for every class.

Instead of trying to stunt nightblades' class development, let's push for other classes' development as well, yea? This ability needs another effect or it will continue to go unused.

It needs to be made competitive, just as other classes need attention too.

Jaronking · May 2016

Give it major or minor mending.So the magica version heals you while the stam version helps your healing.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

I dont know.
If you look at it from a standalone view you can argue is has problems.
But when combo'd with other skills it can become exceptionally OP (Major Brutality).

I guess thats it in a nutshell for me.
OP as combo. Weak as standalone (compared to sap especially).
Not sure how you get around that.

Why does sap have major brutality + major sorcery + heal ?
Surely major butality shoudl be removed from sap or major sorcery added to power extraction.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

For those who are unfamiliar, Power Extraction is the stamina morph of Nightblades' last siphoning skill, the magicka morph of which is Sap Essence. Sap Essence is a super useful magicka ability, but its other morph has been lacking in comparison for a long, long time.

Changing the damage type to disease is a huge step forward for the ability. Thank you ZOS for that.

However, I feel that the ability needs an extra component to make it competitive against the likes of Steel Tornado and Bombard for NBs' choice of AoE damage.

I do not necessarily believe that Power Extraction needs a damage buff. It should deal more damage than Bombard or Steel Tornado outside of execute range but less damage than Steel Tornado in execute range, but the damage is beside the point. I believe it needs a utility component to make it competitive.

What type of utility would be fitting for stamblades' signature AoE skill? Mageblades love their healing, but is that what stamblades would want -- a small heal per enemy hit on their AoE? A snare (god I don't want more snares in the game...)? A bleed? Apply minor penetration debuff? Apply that minor buff that makes the target take 8% more damage?

Got input or another idea? Share.

It's already gives major brutality and have not so small chance to proc disease status effect, it needs more only if it will do physical damage. Add Fasalla's Guile on top of it, play with stats a little and you'll get something really powerful.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Give it major or minor mending.So the magica version heals you while the stam version helps your healing.

That's a good idea!

Magicka nightblades should NOT get major mending, although minor mending would be cool. Their healing is already high enough as it is.

Stamina nightblades could use it, though, to keep up with stam DKs and templars...but then stam sorcs would need it to keep up as well...and then there is just sooooo much healing in the game all of a sudden...

That disturbs me.

DDuke · May 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

I would rather have the Igneous Weapons, which literally does nothing but grant Major Brutality to stam DKs - than a Power Extraction that I can't use from stealth and cant buff myself with without hitting a target and dealing a pitiful amount of damage compared to something like Steel Tornado.

I really don't understand the hate some people have towards Nightblades. It gets to the point where it just becomes counterproductive. If you don't buff the underutilized skills, the one shot gank builds with Vigor & Rally are going to be all you see when it comes to NBs.

Lyar09 · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

That's how it should be for every class.

Instead of trying to stunt nightblades' class development, let's push for other classes' development as well, yea? This ability needs another effect or it will continue to go unused. It needs to be made competitive, just as other classes need attention too.

KENNNNNNA! No, just no. Nightblade is far better with both skills and passives than any other class right now.

"Try not to stunt nightblade's class development"? How about Zos develops the other classes to be on par first

Just my thoughts. Stamplar...out

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

I would rather have the Igneous Weapons, which literally does nothing but grant Major Brutality to stam DKs - than a Power Extraction that I can't use from stealth and cant buff myself with without hitting a target and dealing a pitiful amount of damage compared to something like Steel Tornado.

I really don't understand the hate some people have towards Nightblades. It gets to the point where it just becomes counterproductive. If you don't buff the underutilized skills, the one shot gank builds with Vigor & Rally are going to be all you see when it comes to NBs.

But DK already have it, there's no reason to grant night blades full featured unrestricted hidden buffs or they will newer get out from invis, just oneshot everything around.

Rylana · May 2016

AoE fear

ohwait

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

Scaling up dmg for the amount of targets hit would make perfect sense.

Not as fast as with proxy det ofc but something like 3% for upto 6 targets.

Another option would be to reduce outgoing dmg of the target for x seconds after he's hit with PE.

Silver_Strider · May 2016

I'm just happy it's disease damage instead of magic.

The only thing they could do to make it even better would be to apply Major Brutality without hitting anyone but that should be a base skill change and not a morph option so that it can also apply to Sap Essence.

If I HAD to add anything to the skill, I would be to either apply minor main to the enemy or to increase the range on it slightly.

Rylana · May 2016

In all seriousness though, give it an AoE bleed effect. Sap essence heals you, make extraction a more brutal thing that just makes them bleed that essence all over the place.

DDuke · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

I would rather have the Igneous Weapons, which literally does nothing but grant Major Brutality to stam DKs - than a Power Extraction that I can't use from stealth and cant buff myself with without hitting a target and dealing a pitiful amount of damage compared to something like Steel Tornado.

I really don't understand the hate some people have towards Nightblades. It gets to the point where it just becomes counterproductive. If you don't buff the underutilized skills, the one shot gank builds with Vigor & Rally are going to be all you see when it comes to NBs.

But DK already have it, there's no reason to grant night blades full featured unrestricted hidden buffs or they will newer get out from invis, just oneshot everything around.

They already do that by equipping a 2H weapon and using Rally/Forward Momentum.

What this does is that it pigeonholes pretty much all NBs into sneaking around with a big 2H weapon and limits the amount of build variety you can have.

Lyar09 · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

I would rather have the Igneous Weapons, which literally does nothing but grant Major Brutality to stam DKs - than a Power Extraction that I can't use from stealth and cant buff myself with without hitting a target and dealing a pitiful amount of damage compared to something like Steel Tornado.

I really don't understand the hate some people have towards Nightblades. It gets to the point where it just becomes counterproductive. If you don't buff the underutilized skills, the one shot gank builds with Vigor & Rally are going to be all you see when it comes to NBs.

Templar doesn't have a way to buff itself either? Why does nightblade literally have all the utility in the world through its skills and passives yet nightblade players want more. I'd love to have armor buffs. I'd love for my jabs to do extreme damage, not be a channel, and reduce armor. I'd love for my class gap closer (mind you I don't use it because I'm a stamplar) to work consistently and empower my next attack, I'd love to have a freaking willows path set regen bonus as a passive, I'd love to have the ability to scale my max stats with slotting certain abilities, I'd love to have aoe unblock able CC. Shall I continue?

Jaronking · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Give it major or minor mending.So the magica version heals you while the stam version helps your healing.

That's a good idea!

Magicka nightblades should NOT get major mending, although minor mending would be cool. Their healing is already high enough as it is.

Stamina nightblades could use it, though, to keep up with stam DKs and templars...but then stam sorcs would need it to keep up as well...and then there is just sooooo much healing in the game all of a sudden... That disturbs me.

That's why I said just give us minor mending to at least keep us Competitive with stamplars and StamDK self heals.Its not the same but its enough.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Rylana wrote: »

In all seriousness though, give it an AoE bleed effect. Sap essence heals you, make extraction a more brutal thing that just makes them bleed that essence all over the place.

If its doing disease damage now...surely it will proc the diseased status too ?
I know thats in no way comaprable to bleed usually.

mr_wazzabi · May 2016

Rylana wrote: »

In all seriousness though, give it an AoE bleed effect. Sap essence heals you, make extraction a more brutal thing that just makes them bleed that essence all over the place.

Adding a dot to a spam aoe move is pointless as you'll refresh the dot every second, meaning there's no dot.

Look at cleave and acid spray. Both are underused for this reason.

It should be some other effect like what was mentioned before.

DDuke · May 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Nothing. Every nightblade ability does not need to have a subsidiary effect to it like it already currently does. Be thankful with it now scaling with mighty and move on haha seriously though, nightblade is the only class in the game that LITERALLY every ability has multiple effects to it.

I would rather have the Igneous Weapons, which literally does nothing but grant Major Brutality to stam DKs - than a Power Extraction that I can't use from stealth and cant buff myself with without hitting a target and dealing a pitiful amount of damage compared to something like Steel Tornado.

I really don't understand the hate some people have towards Nightblades. It gets to the point where it just becomes counterproductive. If you don't buff the underutilized skills, the one shot gank builds with Vigor & Rally are going to be all you see when it comes to NBs.

Templar doesn't have a way to buff itself either? Why does nightblade literally have all the utility in the world through its skills and passives yet nightblade players want more. I'd love to have armor buffs. I'd love for my jabs to do extreme damage, not be a channel, and reduce armor. I'd love for my class gap closer (mind you I don't use it because I'm a stamplar) to work consistently and empower my next attack, I'd love to have a freaking willows path set regen bonus as a passive, I'd love to have the ability to scale my max stats with slotting certain abilities, I'd love to have aoe unblock able CC. Shall I continue?

Yes, Templars could certainly use a Major Brutality buff as well.

But then again, it isn't as big of a problem for Templars. Templar isn't the stealth focused class of this MMO, you don't *have to* buff yourself in stealth to be effective.
This means that Templars can make do with Flying Blade (buffing themselves after engaging), after which they can perform their archetype very well.

Nightblades however have to slot 2H - Flying Blade isn't an option because you cannot empower your stealth attacks with it.

I hope this makes sense.

Also, you seem to have some serious misconceptions about templars.

Jabs deal insane amounts of damage, much more so than Surprise Attack (and they do that as AoE, meaning you actually counter Nightblades very well). Stamplars are going to be the most effective zerg wipers of all stamina classes next patch with Jabs->DBOS, you'll just have to focus on weapon dmg/stamina (which your class passives support very well).

I'd love to be able to wipe zergs like that as a Nightblade & just pop people out of invisibility with my main DPS skill, but that's not the case, because balance

Also, you actually have a gap closer next patch (outside 2H) - it's called Silver Leash & I will certainly use it on my stamplar (yes, I do have one) rather than Crit Rush.