Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

Teridaxus · May 2016

Before some dps come into this thread and tell us the to pick up the new sturdy, you also have to remember this too:

People have to gave up both their old traits and the new or buffed traits in db
Gold tempers are insanly expensive. Over 64k gold for each single item ( pc eu ).
We would need atleast 5 sturdy items to reach the old constituion value and now we lack the reduction from cp trees on top of it which leaves out 2 other slots which are not enough to reach the value of the cp tree, even with buffed sword&shield.
Many tanks were forced to spend their green cp into regen and reduced abilites cost. Now we face serious problem there.
Tanks have no problem to absorb damage, its our sustain which kills us.

sebban · May 2016

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

SanTii.92 · May 2016

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

Assign points on +physical and magic resist stars, maybe some in healing recieve. Get The block cost from the Sadow and get some stam regen from your gear to compensate. There, problem solved. You got with no doubt buffed.

NBrookus · May 2016

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

^This.

I was actually hopeful. Thoughts of hanging up my shield were dismissed. I read the upcoming changes to the Sturdy trait and thought, "well I gotta gear grind again, but that'll work..." ... got to the S&B changes and was like "okay, I tank with S&B anyway" -- then I got to the CP changes.

Oh FFS.

It makes NO sense.

Reorx_Holybeard · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

Assign points on +physical and magic resist stars, maybe some in healing recieve. Get The block cost from the Sadow and get some stam regen from your gear to compensate. There, problem solved. You got with no doubt buffed.

I'm unsure how you see this as a buff?

I gain +5% physical/magical defense.
I lose 16% magicka cost reduction and 5% stamina cost reduction to put into block expertise.
That's in addition to the +10% cost increase of all abilities.
I lose the Shield Expert passive.
+Healing Received does little to nothing for me.
+Stamina Recovery is not useful due to blocking (+Magicka Recovery is actually more useful).
If I can afford it I can remake all my gear in Sturdy but lose the benefits from Divines.

Perhaps for certain tank builds it might not be particularly bad but terrible for my stamina DK tank. Everything costs more: Blocking, Stamina abilities, and especially Magicka abilities (like +35% more if I have the numbers right). Perhaps I'll give up tanking and stick with DPS, or make a DPS build and put a taunt on one bar and call myself a tank.

aidenmoore · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

Assign points on +physical and magic resist stars, maybe some in healing recieve. Get The block cost from the Sadow and get some stam regen from your gear to compensate. There, problem solved. You got with no doubt buffed.

Waw. Seems like you're clueless. None of those compensate with any of the recent changes.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @Wrobel

I hadn't bothered posting here because I haven't been on PTS so don't know for myself how it would play, but with the new change to the Block Cost Reduction Champion Points I'm now suddenly very disturbed by what I'm seeing.

I'm all for having Heavy Armor be viable for Hybrids as well as Tanks, but it has to be viable for Tanks as well, and with all these hits to blocking I don't think my Hybrid Tanks will be viable anymore, which for me completely breaks the game and will most likely result in me not playing anymore if that turns out to be the case. And the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that ZOS is pushing us to use Sturdy Traits if we want decent blocking ability, which is absolutely ridiculous and excessively limiting to Tank build variation.

Blocking needs to be balanced and not be OP, so I understand tweaking it in light of the changes to Heavy Armor and Constitution, they want to make sure Heavy Armor doesn't become OP when they buff it and I'm all for that in principle, but in practice if this is how they're going about it then I am vehemently against it, this series of changes seem to be taking things in a terrible direction that will destroy countless carefully crafted Builds, and represent a hit to Tanking that I don't think this game can afford when there's already too few of us, and so little incentive for people to want to be Tanks.

However you guys finalize things, please don't try and force us to use Sturdy just to block effectively, which limits our ability to use traits that we need to fill in gaps in our builds. There should never be only one right way to do something, and the way things are going it looks like you're trying to only have one way, and I cannot emphasize enough how problematic that is, or how badly Tanks and the players who play them will be harmed by these changes if it goes in that direction.

GoodOlPinkly · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

Assign points on +physical and magic resist stars, maybe some in healing recieve. Get The block cost from the Sadow and get some stam regen from your gear to compensate. There, problem solved. You got with no doubt buffed.

This must be @Wrobel secret account....

Teridaxus · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

@Wrobel

It's funny, just when I had lost hope that you at ZOS cared about tanks at all, I gained a little hope with this post.

And then all hope is lost again when you moved the reduced block cost champion star from a tree where it made sense, to a tree where it makes no sense at all, and further makes life more difficult for tanks since we can't spend our points in the other two green trees, where they are very much needed.

If the overall goal is not to make tanking more difficult, then why do you keep making changes that makes tanking more difficult? I mean, seriously, what's going on?

Assign points on +physical and magic resist stars, maybe some in healing recieve. Get The block cost from the Sadow and get some stam regen from your gear to compensate. There, problem solved. You got with no doubt buffed.

Most tanks are running either close or already reached armour cap.
Heiling received is useless vs oneshoot mechanics or geneal high spike damage.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

@Wrobel , if block cost reduction was put into the mage instead, then this would have been the best patch to have ever happened for tanks.

GoodOlPinkly · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Wrobel , if block cost reduction was put into the mage instead, then this would have been the best patch to have ever happened for tanks.

I mean honestly it would effect my damage as a magicka tank in pvp, but that being said even I agree with you 100% ID rather see it there or back where it was , just please stop messing with my recources

Personofsecrets · May 2016

@Wrobel , the tanking changes are just a crazy hot air balloon ride at this point.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

GoodOlPinkly wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Wrobel , if block cost reduction was put into the mage instead, then this would have been the best patch to have ever happened for tanks.

I mean honestly it would effect my damage as a magicka tank in pvp, but that being said even I agree with you 100% ID rather see it there or back where it was , just please stop messing with my recources

The whole damage things is probably why it didn't get put in mage. Putting it into thief though just exasperates the issue that buffing fortress and sturdy was fixing.

I wish that none of us ever made any tanking feedback, then maybe we could have just played without wild changes drastically altering our resource generation. Furthermore, it is clear that we are never going to get a clear buff. We might gain a point somewhere, but we have to pay the iron price for that by losing 2 points somewhere else.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

@Wrobel , spreading the thief thin just means that people will be less likely to want to tank because it will be more difficult for them to tank, but also efficiently participate in other fun parts of the game, without paying several thousand gold for respecification.

Firerock2 · May 2016

@Wrobel Why do you hate tanks?

Armitas · May 2016

What I don't get is why all the sudden restraint when it comes to tanking? Where is the restraint shown for medium armor where you can now couple more dodge roll cost reduction in addition to what medium armor already provides. Where is the restraint shown for that? It can't be found, in fact they are adding shields in addition to 5% dodge roll reduction per piece.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

What I don't get is why all the sudden restraint when it comes to tanking? Where is the restraint shown for medium armor where you can now couple more dodge roll cost reduction in addition to what medium armor already provides. Where is the restraint shown for that? It can't be found, in fact they are adding shields in addition to 5% dodge roll reduction per piece.

Only the developers know.

Nebthet78 · May 2016

Well now with the changes in this version of the PTS... I now will no longer be Tanking for any one.. I have also cancelled my Sub.

Wrobel needs to stop screwing the pooch!!! He obviously has no clue how things work in this game outside his little bubble!

I am thinking it is time that ZOS got rid of certain employees and gets some fresh blood that knows what the hell they are doing before this game goes belly up.

Frankly, at this point, I think when DB is released, any one who tanks should actually stop doing so and then we shall see just how bad the wait times for the group finder really gets. Maybe then, just Maybe, they will start actually listening to us instead of trying to give up bait and switches.

Oompuh · May 2016

Let's just forget about all the Wrobel buffs and go back to 2.3 at least we can block in live

Teridaxus · May 2016

Even the people in reddit and in game are upset about those changes.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Even the people in reddit and in game are upset about those changes.

Wow, Reddit is full of the most staunch and unbending zos supporters. That really says something.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Oompuh wrote: »

Let's just forget about all the Wrobel buffs and go back to 2.3 at least we can block in live

1.5 please.

code65536 · May 2016

@Wrobel @ZOS_KNowak Please revert this CP change.

Nobody asked for it. Nobody wants it.

Why it should not be in the green tree:

Tanking in this game is a resource-management game. We have lower resource pools to start with because we need health and we need to split between magicka and stamina. We don't have the kind of gear cost reduction that DDs and healers have.

Take, for example, one of the many large pulls in vICP. There are several important targets that I need to taunt. Some ranged enemies that I need to pull in. And then lock into place with talons. And then I throw in Deep Breaths here and there to interrupt the Harvester's special attack and/or the Invoker's shielding ability.

These are all things that a good tank should be doing. And doing all of these things quickly depletes my magicka pool. You want me to sacrifice my magicka regen and cost reduction CP stars so that I could maintain my current block costs?! Tanks aren't there to just soak up damage--that's what a bad tank does. A good tank needs to provide utility, and this change would seriously hamper that.

Why it should not be in the blue tree:

Aside from it not making sense thematically, people who do damage-tanking in PvP or people who gear-swap between different roles in PvE would be hampered by this change.

Having this block cost reduction in the red tree was a good thematic fit and offered a meaningful choice between different kinds of mitigation: mainly block, damage reduction, or shield strength. Moving it out of red means that I could ramp up damage reduction even more--which, frankly, I don't need more of.

What all of these tank changes will lead to, and how you can fix it:

What all these changes do is just encourage people to switch to medium armor for tanking. We lost Bracing in Heavy Armor so there's no block cost advantage for using HA instead of MA. And with the abundance of red points to spend now, you can reach sufficient mitigation with MA. And with all the resources that we lost with these green points, MA's resources look a lot more enticing now.

I'm going to give you guys the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is not your intent to mess the system up so badly that medium armor actually becomes the ideal tank armor--but with the way things are now, that's going to be the new reality. Please fix this. Revert the change and put the blocking CP back in the red tree where it belongs. Move the extra 3%/6% block cost reduction from Fortress into Wrath (you can have more than one effect per passive, right?). Just do these two simple things and we'll applaud you.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Well now with the changes in this version of the PTS... I now will no longer be Tanking for any one.. I have also cancelled my Sub.

Wrobel needs to stop screwing the pooch!!! He obviously has no clue how things work in this game outside his little bubble!

I am thinking it is time that ZOS got rid of certain employees and gets some fresh blood that knows what the hell they are doing before this game goes belly up.

Frankly, at this point, I think when DB is released, any one who tanks should actually stop doing so and then we shall see just how bad the wait times for the group finder really gets. Maybe then, just Maybe, they will start actually listening to us instead of trying to give up bait and switches.

I'm sorry that you feel bad enough to cancel (many of us have), but hope that your message sends a loud and clear signal.

Oompuh · May 2016

Stam DK DPS is look pretty tempting with their buffs, just saying.. It seems thats what ZOS wants us to do

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Oompuh wrote: »

Stam DK DPS is look pretty tempting with their buffs, just saying.. It seems thats what ZOS wants us to do

I'm going stam dk DPS 100%

HelloPotato123 · May 2016

This is insane. Here I was hoping they would restore bracing, but they just made tanking even worse! I have no words at this point....

Wow

SirSilverMask · May 2016

A few thoughts in a random order.
Anyone who wants to tank and dps with the same character, just charge 6K gold to move CP from a dps set up to a tank set up whenever someone asks for a tank.
Yes, sustaining resources gets even tougher for tanks.
I'm glad that they made sturdy additive now, that is a positive step.
CP change does not help solve the lack of tanks in the game whatsoever. For anyone saying that you can put points in other red areas, that supports medium armor tanking more. Most tanks don't need that extra 75-100 points to put into other areas in the red tree. However they are needed in the green tree, such as magicka regen, reduced magicka cost, and reduced stamina cost to help the poor regen and sustain of heavy armor.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

HelloPotato123 wrote: »

This is insane. Here I was hoping they would restore bracing, but they just made tanking even worse! I have no words at this point....

Wow

Thank you for signing up for the forums and giving your feedback @HelloPotato123

Personofsecrets · May 2016

SirSilverMask wrote: »

For anyone saying that you can put points in other red areas, that supports medium armor tanking more. Most tanks don't need that extra 75-100 points to put into other areas in the red tree. However they are needed in the green tree, such as magicka regen, reduced magicka cost, and reduced stamina cost to help the poor regen and sustain of heavy armor.

This is exactly right.