The new "Prosperous" trait is just the old "Sturdy" trait in a new costume

code65536 · May 2016

New Prosperous - Increase the gold gained from looting enemies.

Old Sturdy - Item takes less durability damage.

These two traits effectively the same. Why?

Because gear is damaged when you earn XP from PvE kills (or when you die). It means that a tank taking a beating on the front line takes the same durability hit as a healer who stands in the back and is never hit by the enemy.

In short, the repairs that result from normal durability loss is simply a way to add a gold cost to killing enemies. Since killing enemies (usually) results in lootable corpses, the durability loss was essentially a gold sink counterweight against the gold gained from killing enemies. Which, in turn, means that the old Sturdy, by reducing the magnitude of that gold sink, was just a means to increase the net gold value of killing PvE enemies.

And that's essentially what Prosperous is: just like the old Sturdy, Prosperous is just a means to increase the net gold value of killing PvE enemies. Sturdy mitigates the negative side of the gold-from-killing equation. Prosperous buffs the positive side of the gold-from-killing equation.

There are some situations where the old Sturdy is the superior trait: If you're grinding nMA, for example, you get zero gold from corpses (the only gold is in a chest at the end), so the old Sturdy's cost reduction was better. If you're running a group dungeon where normal durability loss is a lot less than in normal PvE, Prosperous would be better. But, in general, the two traits accomplish the exact same end goal, just with different dressing.

However, given how ill-received the old Sturdy was (it was universally regarded as the worst trait, and it was removed from the monster head/shoulder loot tables as a result), why are we doing this again with Prosperous? And why in bloody blazes is Prosperous in the loot table for set items? I ran vWGT on the PTS and got a set item with Prosperous.

Please, rethink Prosperous. If all it does it improve gold loot value, it's nothing more than a reskin of the old failed Sturdy trait. If, instead, it improved the loot RNG for any looting scenario, it would be a much more desirable trait (you can adjust down the trait's values as needed for balance).

As it currently stands, I doubt many people will be happy to get an item like this:

susmitds · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

New Prosperous - Increase the gold gained from looting enemies.

Old Sturdy - Item takes less durability damage.

These two traits effectively the same. Why?

Because gear is damaged when you earn XP from PvE kills (or when you die). It means that a tank taking a beating on the front line takes the same durability hit as a healer who stands in the back and is never hit by the enemy.

In short, the repairs that result from normal durability loss is simply a way to add a gold cost to killing enemies. Since killing enemies (usually) results in lootable corpses, the durability loss was essentially a gold sink counterweight against the gold gained from killing enemies. Which, in turn, means that the old Sturdy, by reducing the magnitude of that gold sink, was just a means to increase the net gold value of killing PvE enemies.

And that's essentially what Prosperous is: just like the old Sturdy, Prosperous is just a means to increase the net gold value of killing PvE enemies. Sturdy mitigates the negative side of the gold-from-killing equation. Prosperous buffs the positive side of the gold-from-killing equation.

There are some situations where the old Sturdy is the superior trait: If you're grinding nMA, for example, you get zero gold from corpses (the only gold is in a chest at the end), so the old Sturdy's cost reduction was better. If you're running a group dungeon where normal durability loss is a lot less than in normal PvE, Prosperous would be better. But, in general, the two traits accomplish the exact same end goal, just with different dressing.

However, given how ill-received the old Sturdy was (it was universally regarded as the worst trait, and it was removed from the monster head/shoulder loot tables as a result), why are we doing this again with Prosperous? And why in bloody blazes is Prosperous in the loot table for set items? I ran vWGT on the PTS and got a set item with Prosperous.

Please, rethink Prosperous. If all it does it improve gold loot value, it's nothing more than a reskin of the old failed Sturdy trait. If, instead, it improved the loot RNG for any looting scenario, it would be a much more desirable trait (you can adjust down the trait's values as needed for balance).

Not really. I hardly ever die in normal situations. So the old Sturdy used to be useless for me. While the new Prosperous is still too lackluster, atleast I will be getting better rewards for using it.

code65536 · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Not really. I hardly ever die in normal situations. So the old Sturdy used to be useless for me. While the new Prosperous is still too lackluster, atleast I will be getting better rewards for using it.

You take armor damage from earning XP from kills. The damage from deaths is an additional durability loss on top of that.

Have you ever gone grinding for XP? Even if you never die, the amount of repair costs that you rack up is immense. Something on the order of 1K in repairs in half an hour, even if you never die.

In any case, as I note, there are cases where Prosperous would be better than the old Sturdy (in group dungeons, where the degradation from XP is substantially decreased) and situations where the old Sturdy is much better (in MA, where you get tons of XP and gear degradation from kills, but the corpses are unlootable). Whether Prosperous or the old Sturdy is better is irrelevant, though. The point is that Prosperous serves the same general end-purpose as the old Sturdy, and is thus approximately as useless as the old Sturdy.

Unless you're making a separate gear set specifically for grinding easy mobs, why would you ever pick the old Sturdy or the new Prosperous instead of a trait that's actually useful for combat, like Divines, Infused, or hell, even Reinforced? And if you're mob-grinding for XP instead of loot, why would you pick Prosperous instead of Training? And, most importantly, why would we want a trait like this polluting the loot table for BiS endgame sets like Scathing or SPC?

Recremen · May 2016

I think it's really going to depend on the % gold increase and how much gold you actually get from mob kills. Without hard numbers it would be difficult to compare the two.

code65536 · May 2016

Recremen wrote: »

I think it's really going to depend on the % gold increase and how much gold you actually get from mob kills. Without hard numbers it would be difficult to compare the two.

This isn't about Prosperous vs. old-Sturdy. It doesn't matter which one comes out on top. What matters is that Prosperous serves the same general goal as the old Sturdy (increase net gold value of kills).

The old Sturdy was widely regarded as the most useless trait, and it was rightfully excluded from the loot tables for high-end gear. So why is a new trait that serves a similar purpose as this old useless trait now found in the loot tables in vWGT?

Either scrub Prosperous from the loot tables for endgame gear or rethink it (e.g., an increase of loot RNG instead of lootable gold would make it far more interesting).

Morimizo · May 2016

@code65536 , definitely agree with your OP, and think your solution is brilliant. Can you imagine how popular the Prosperous trait would be if it increased rare drop % by even 5%? Talk about a difficult choice to make in the more difficult PVE areas; more protection, or better chance at finding that elusive set piece?

Isn't that the spirit of traits, to have to choose between, and be vexed by, VALUABLE options, increasing build diversity?

Ruben · May 2016

Prosperous would only be the same as Sturdy if you always came back with exactly the same gold as you're spending with repairs. Since you will make a profit, Prosperous will give you a nice extra % of direct gold.

If you think about it for a minute, this is an improvement.

NativeJoe · May 2016

Eh instead of prosperous why don't we just have a trait that increases all 3 stats by 1% per piece. boom. desirable trait.

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2016

You realize you don't have to repair a set of gear while farming right? Which would net more gold overall because you are not repairing your gear....

Recremen · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I think it's really going to depend on the % gold increase and how much gold you actually get from mob kills. Without hard numbers it would be difficult to compare the two.

This isn't about Prosperous vs. old-Sturdy. It doesn't matter which one comes out on top. What matters is that Prosperous serves the same general goal as the old Sturdy (increase net gold value of kills).

The old Sturdy was widely regarded as the most useless trait, and it was rightfully excluded from the loot tables for high-end gear. So why is a new trait that serves a similar purpose as this old useless trait now found in the loot tables in vWGT?

Either scrub Prosperous from the loot tables for endgame gear or rethink it (e.g., an increase of loot RNG instead of lootable gold would make it far more interesting).

Oh it should definitely stay scrubbed from end-game gear lists, but if it turns into, say, a gold-farmer's tool, then it's still useful. Much like the XP boosting trait, it should end up having a niche but important value. That's my take on it, anyway.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2016

However the Prosperous vs. Sturdy argument plays out mathmatically, NO ONE is going to want that trait on Monster Sets or any Endgame gear.

Its just negative RNG to promote people grinding content. It's filler. Get it off the loot tables!

Saucy_Jack · May 2016

I said before in the trait feedback thread that I thought in addition to dropped mob gold it should also increase mob dropped loot quality/quantity - basically act like the "treasure hunter" perk, except for mobs instead of chests.

Would be a fair tradeoff for losing DPS/survivability-related stats.

ContraTempo · May 2016

Other possibilities to replace prosperous?

Quality - Gives a chance at better quality drops
Sense - gives a warning when hostiles are close. Does not take anyone out of stealth or show you where they are, but lets you know danger is near. Radius increases with more pieces.
Rider - Slows the drain on mount stamina while sprinting
Snakeblood -- Similar to the alchemist skill, reduces the duration of negative effects of potions & poisons

Others?

code65536 · May 2016

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I said before in the trait feedback thread that I thought in addition to dropped mob gold it should also increase mob dropped loot quality/quantity - basically act like the "treasure hunter" perk, except for mobs instead of chests.

Would be a fair tradeoff for losing DPS/survivability-related stats.

Another possibility would be to change it to "Luck". Slight improvement to gold loot, slight improvement to item drop RNG. And a slight improvement to crit chance. The crit chance buff should be small enough that it can't compete against Divines+Thief. But it would give the trait some amount of combat value, and people will then have a nice meaningful choice of the ideal combat trait (Divines) vs. a good-but-not-ideal combat trait that, as compensation, carries some non-combat benefits.

SienneYviete · May 2016

lol this trait and it's predecessor are absolute trash and whats more of an insult is these are on the loot table in end game gear..... seriously ZOS the point of re balancing traits was to not pigeon hole everyone into using the same traits and now not only have you basically renamed and already worthless trait you have re added it to our already stupid gear grinds that we asked you previously to get rid of them from.