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There needs to be a burst heal that scales off of stamina
Azurephoenix999
✭✭✭✭✭
Repurposing this thread
There are currently three heals that scale off of stamina to my knowledge.
Rally: Exclusive to the Two-Handed weapon skill line and primarily focused on buffing weapon damage rather than healing. In addition, it heals over time rather than all at once, only offering a slightly bigger burst heal after its 30 or so second duration has expired.
Vigor: Available to everybody, but is more about healing over time in the background while you dodge incoming damage.
Blood Craze: Involves attacking an enemy, causing them to bleed over time. Some of the damage the bleeding causes is used to heal you.
What's similar with all of these? None of them are equipped to heal large amounts of damage at once.
In group dungeons, there are several instances where you will find the need to heal in large amounts all at once with no alternatives. An example of this is the Drain Life spell from the first major encounter in Vaults of Madness. You can't dodge it, block it, or interrupt it. Your only choice is to heal through it, which, if you can only choose from these three, is almost impossible.
Another example is the Wildfire ability from the Daedroth enemies in the White-Gold Tower. Even after the enemy has stopped attacking you, you continue to receive a tremendous amount of DoT from some unknown source (I dunno if there's supposed to be some kind of flame animation to show how you're getting hurt, but there was no animation whatsoever when I played it, so the attack seemed completely unavoidable to me) forcing you to heal until the damage stopped.
The current options stamina players have are simply not sufficient for these situations.
As many below have mentioned, Rally and Vigor are often used together to heal quickly, but why should using two skills simultaneously be necessary for something like this?
One thing people below have also mentioned is that the healer in the group should heal you if you get into one of these situations, and that's a fair point. My rebuttal to this is that the healer could very easily be preoccupied with healing somebody else, and we shouldn't have to rely on them for everything.
My Proposal
Instant Stamina-based heal, kind of like Rushed Ceremony, but focused purely on the caster. No gimmicks, no dealing damage to an opponent in exchange for health, no waiting for healing over time, no additional buff of any kind. It would be available to everybody regardless of class or weapon choice. The purpose of this skill would be to heal through large amounts of damage.
Some may complain about something like this making the other abilities on this list obsolete, but I disagree. Each of the currently existing options has a purpose and this wouldn't get in the way of that.
Rally buffs weapon damage in addition to the healing, which would remain viable to those that simply want to go on a relentless assault against foes. In addition, it heals the player for a long duration.
Vigor heals slightly faster than rally, but not for very long. The reason why this would still be viable? It's cheap. Any stamina-based player can cast this with a literal speck of their stamina.
Blood Craze is an attack that also deals DoT to the enemy, which is something that no other stamina heal does to my knowledge. It will still be viable for that reason.
EDIT: Was originally about wanting Vigor to be transformed into an instant heal, but after being informed of its actual purpose by the people below, I thought it'd probably be better to introduce a new skill entirely.
Edited by Azurephoenix999 on May 7, 2016 4:00PM There are currently three heals that scale off of stamina to my knowledge.
Rally: Exclusive to the Two-Handed weapon skill line and primarily focused on buffing weapon damage rather than healing. In addition, it heals over time rather than all at once, only offering a slightly bigger burst heal after its 30 or so second duration has expired.
Vigor: Available to everybody, but is more about healing over time in the background while you dodge incoming damage.
Blood Craze: Involves attacking an enemy, causing them to bleed over time. Some of the damage the bleeding causes is used to heal you.
What's similar with all of these? None of them are equipped to heal large amounts of damage at once.
In group dungeons, there are several instances where you will find the need to heal in large amounts all at once with no alternatives. An example of this is the Drain Life spell from the first major encounter in Vaults of Madness. You can't dodge it, block it, or interrupt it. Your only choice is to heal through it, which, if you can only choose from these three, is almost impossible.
Another example is the Wildfire ability from the Daedroth enemies in the White-Gold Tower. Even after the enemy has stopped attacking you, you continue to receive a tremendous amount of DoT from some unknown source (I dunno if there's supposed to be some kind of flame animation to show how you're getting hurt, but there was no animation whatsoever when I played it, so the attack seemed completely unavoidable to me) forcing you to heal until the damage stopped.
The current options stamina players have are simply not sufficient for these situations.
As many below have mentioned, Rally and Vigor are often used together to heal quickly, but why should using two skills simultaneously be necessary for something like this?
One thing people below have also mentioned is that the healer in the group should heal you if you get into one of these situations, and that's a fair point. My rebuttal to this is that the healer could very easily be preoccupied with healing somebody else, and we shouldn't have to rely on them for everything.
My Proposal
Instant Stamina-based heal, kind of like Rushed Ceremony, but focused purely on the caster. No gimmicks, no dealing damage to an opponent in exchange for health, no waiting for healing over time, no additional buff of any kind. It would be available to everybody regardless of class or weapon choice. The purpose of this skill would be to heal through large amounts of damage.
Some may complain about something like this making the other abilities on this list obsolete, but I disagree. Each of the currently existing options has a purpose and this wouldn't get in the way of that.
Rally buffs weapon damage in addition to the healing, which would remain viable to those that simply want to go on a relentless assault against foes. In addition, it heals the player for a long duration.
Vigor heals slightly faster than rally, but not for very long. The reason why this would still be viable? It's cheap. Any stamina-based player can cast this with a literal speck of their stamina.
Blood Craze is an attack that also deals DoT to the enemy, which is something that no other stamina heal does to my knowledge. It will still be viable for that reason.
EDIT: Was originally about wanting Vigor to be transformed into an instant heal, but after being informed of its actual purpose by the people below, I thought it'd probably be better to introduce a new skill entirely.
Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver
1
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DeanTheCat✭✭✭✭✭27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.Dean the Cat
Somewhat Insane Puddicat
EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.
Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.
This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.
Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.
My guides:1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.Argonian forever3 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor.
I've heard multiple things about what is an appropriate max stamina. Some have said going all the way to 40K is necessary, some say 30K is good enough, some have even told me that 28K is more than what I'll need. Nobody's given me a solid answer.
Anyways, my next objective is to increase my max stamina with armor enchantments. Even so, I still believe that Vigor's effect is extremely lackluster and shouldn't require shoving literally everything you have into stamina to be remotely useful.DeanTheCat wrote: »have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
Mentioned in the post, I'm already using that morph.DeanTheCat wrote: »The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
Didn't know about this, but that still explicitly requires that I equip a two handed weapon.DeanTheCat wrote: »A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire.
This is exactly why I believe that Vigor (and I guess Rally too) should be upgraded. They are heals, so they need to be useful in situations where you would normally require healing.DeanTheCat wrote: »By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
What else would you suggest? I'm already using the morph you mentioned and am putting everything besides enchantments into stamina, and I get the feeling that even when I do get the right glyphs that still won't be enough to make the ability useful under heavy fire.
If I were to try and heal myself to full with the ability as it is, it would take a total of ten seconds. This ability simply isn't worth anything at the moment.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
Exactly.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver1 -
DeanTheCat✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).Azurephoenix999 wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor.
I've heard multiple things about what is an appropriate max stamina. Some have said going all the way to 40K is necessary, some say 30K is good enough, some have even told me that 28K is more than what I'll need. Nobody's given me a solid answer.
Anyways, my next objective is to increase my max stamina with armor enchantments. Even so, I still believe that Vigor's effect is extremely lackluster and shouldn't require shoving literally everything you have into stamina to be remotely useful.DeanTheCat wrote: »have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
Mentioned in the post, I'm already using that morph.DeanTheCat wrote: »The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
Didn't know about this, but that still explicitly requires that I equip a two handed weapon.DeanTheCat wrote: »A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire.
This is exactly why I believe that Vigor (and I guess Rally too) should be upgraded. They are heals, so they need to be useful in situations where you would normally require healing.DeanTheCat wrote: »By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
What else would you suggest? I'm already using the morph you mentioned and am putting everything besides enchantments into stamina, and I get the feeling that even when I do get the right glyphs that still won't be enough to make the ability useful under heavy fire.
If I were to try and heal myself to full with the ability as it is, it would take a total of ten seconds. This ability simply isn't worth anything at the moment.
My vigor ticks for me for 2.5k non-crit in PvE and 4k+ crit in PvE. This is with 35k Stamina and 3.6k Weapon Damage. If you want to get the most out of any build, you need to fully dedicate yourself, be it to Magicka or to Stamina. This is a symptom of a larger issue with ESO at the moment, something that will only be fixed once ZOS decides to tackle the root of the problem rather then the symptoms.
Until that day comes (Which is unlikely), the dominating strategy is to push your offence to the limit, as in the current build of ESO, Offence = Defense
The game was advertised as "Play how you want". They did not advertise it as "Play how you want and be viable in every situation". It is completely your choice to use the tools available to you, and its also completely your choice not to. Do not try and push for a change that will wreck perfectly usable builds. Instead, push for a change that will fix the issue at its roots, which is namely a reinstitution of character power limits.Dean the Cat
Somewhat Insane Puddicat
EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.
Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.
This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.
Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.
My guides:6 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).
To be fair, I believe all classes should be given a basic magicka-based heal that doesn't require a staff, and that's coming from a Templar.
Also, using a non-enchanted sword to heal yourself doesn't make any logical sense. If you're not actually using the sword in any way, why should it be a two-handed sword exclusive?
Edited by Azurephoenix999 on May 7, 2016 3:11PMGuildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).
That isn't exactly true.
DKs can use Dragons Blood, Burning Embers and Whip, not to mention any ultimate due to Battle Roar
Sorcs have their Twilight, Dark Exchange and Surge
NB have Refreshing path, Strife, Sap Essense and Soul Tether
Templars have their entire Restoring Light tree and Jabs
Restostaff heals are optimal but not outright required either, outside maybe PvP.
Compare this to stamina.
We have Vigor, Rally and Blood Craze.
Soon we'll get that Blood Flurry and Drain shot too but that's still only 5 stamina heals vs a hell of a lot more magic heals.Edited by Silver_Strider on May 7, 2016 1:22PMArgonian forever0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I find Vigor perfectly fine for me, my vigor heals me 14k or so over 5 seconds, I have 29k stam and 3300 wep dmg. What id really like is other options for burst heal then only rally, it kinda forces you to use 2h.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
DeanTheCat✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).
That isn't exactly true.
DKs can use Dragons Blood, Burning Embers and Whip, not to mention any ultimate due to Battle Roar
Sorcs have their Twilight, Dark Exchange and Surge
NB have Refreshing path, Strife, Sap Essense and Soul Tether
Templars have their entire Restoring Light tree and Jabs
Restostaff heals are optimal but not outright required either, outside maybe PvP.
Using Vigor alone isn't optimal, but not outright required either, outside maybe PvP. See what I did there?
I don't see the difference between a Magicka user sacrificing a weapon slot for optimal healing, and a Stamina user sacrificing a weapon slot for optimal healing. Besides, Rally also boosts your damage, and can be cast from sneak without revealing yourself. This alone makes Rally worth it as it is. The added healing turns what is already a good ability into an awesome ability.Azurephoenix999 wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
Well, what about increasing the healing it does overall, and then decreasing the duration?
Boost the healing it does by 50% and decrease the time to half. ThenDeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).
To be fair, I believe all classes should be given a basic magicka-based heal that doesn't require a staff, and that's coming from a Templar.
Also, using a non-enchanted sword to heal yourself doesn't make any logical sense. If you're not actually using the sword in any way, why should it be a two-handed sword exclusive?
The problem with boosting Vigor in the manner you speak is that Vigor is usually paired with Shuffle and Dodge Roll, which means that the HoT ticks while the user is avoiding most damage. If you were to let's say double the heal per tick while halving the duration, Stamina builds will become near immortal in PvP, due to the combination of increased healing and dodge negating almost 100% of attacks. You need to consider the other side of the fence as well
Though I personally won't mind a buff to a skill that I use in almost every fight. Dean the Cat
Somewhat Insane Puddicat
EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.
Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.
This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.
Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.
My guides:3 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
To hell with that train of thought.
Stamina should not be forced to use a 2h just so we can get a semi-reliable heal on our character.
To that notion, should all non-templar magicka classes be able to cast Healing Ward without a restoration staff? Magicka is forced to use Resto Staff to get their heals, and the Two-Hander is the "Resto-Sword" of Stamina. (And before you accuse me of Magicka Bias, I've been playing Stamina Builds since beta, 1 character only).
That isn't exactly true.
DKs can use Dragons Blood, Burning Embers and Whip, not to mention any ultimate due to Battle Roar
Sorcs have their Twilight, Dark Exchange and Surge
NB have Refreshing path, Strife, Sap Essense and Soul Tether
Templars have their entire Restoring Light tree and Jabs
Restostaff heals are optimal but not outright required either, outside maybe PvP.
Using Vigor alone isn't optimal, but not outright required either, outside maybe PvP. See what I did there?
I don't see the difference between a Magicka user sacrificing a weapon slot for optimal healing, and a Stamina user sacrificing a weapon slot for optimal healing. Besides, Rally also boosts your damage, and can be cast from sneak without revealing yourself. This alone makes Rally worth it as it is. The added healing turns what is already a good ability into an awesome ability.
The difference is that Vigor is the only stamina heal outside of a weapon skill line that stamina classes have access too. The same is not true of magic builds because they have class based heals, all of which are magic based, and can be slotted onto the hotbar at any time on any weapon.
I can be a magic NB with Dual Wield and Destro staff and be more or less fine because I have Swallow Soul, Sap Essence and Refreshing path going off all the time. Same goes for the other classes as well.Argonian forever1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This game has too much heal.
PvP is all about passive stats(CP system......) and resource Ups and Downs, while spamming a few skills(since there aren't any cooldowns..)
and Breaking Free from every CC (making ALL ccs in the game to have this effect: stop an enemy for half a second and drain X or Y stamina from him, depending on where you casted root or other...)
What an ugly piano play..1 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭I find Vigor perfectly fine for me, my vigor heals me 14k or so over 5 seconds, I have 29k stam and 3300 wep dmg. What id really like is other options for burst heal then only rally, it kinda forces you to use 2h.
Firstly, I want to know how this guy got his Vigor to heal 5K more than mine when he has only 1.5K stamina more than me.
Secondly, I'm just annoyed that the only stamina-based heal that's available to everybody is just so unbelievably bad. It's not just bad as in "it's not the best" kind of way, it's bad in a "this ability rarely ever makes an actual difference" kind of way.
I mean, the only scenario this is useful in is if you're just marching through the wilderness and come across a few enemies whilst farming mats.
Group Dungeons - The ability is supposed to heal the entire group, but its effect is so lackluster, you need to have a healer in anyway. Having any semi-decent healer in the party means using the ability in the first place is almost completely pointless.
PVP - This ability does pretty much NOTHING in PVP.
Also, to rebut the claim that making it an instant heal would put it in direct competition with Rally, it wouldn't. Rally's primary focus is to buff weapon damage, the healing is just a bonus. Given that, they could buff Vigor AND keep Rally viable again by simply increasing the duration of the weapon damage buff, and maybe have Rally increase stamina recovery slightly as well.
So you know what? I revert to my original opinion on the matter. Vigor should heal instantly instead of over time, and the cost should be doubled to compensate. To keep Rally a viable, Two-Handed exclusive alternative, do that thing I said in the previous paragraph.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vigor works fine for me and if you have 2H , you also have rally as a buff heal .3 -
Ahzek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vigor is strong, very strong.
As Dean already mentioned Vigor from an actually somewhat competetive stam DPS build should at least crit for 4k (PvE) on the caster. This is already a perfectly valid self heal almost anyone would use, even without the AoE effect attched, which is not supposed to heal your group through the red anyways.
As Dean mentioned as well, vigor is commonly used with rally to make up the bulk (if not all) of a PvP stam builds healing, and should be perfectly sufficient for any reasonable situation (not saving you from 20 people is perfectly normal).
Should you actually have troubles surviving in PvP dont blame that on vigor, but instead attempt to learn the use other tools available to a stam build to defend themselves. While its hardly required in PvE, dodge rolling is your best friend in PvP and combined with shuffle proper rolling should soak a lot of incomming damage, especially in tight situations, giving you room to let vigor do its magick.
Also dont cast vigor at the brink of death. Instead identify incomming threats and cast vigor before you dropp to an unreasonable health level, the strong HoT can keep you at a comfortabke health total then.
Lastly, vigor is pretty useless in many controlled PvE situations. It wont save you from the really big damage ( and it really shouldnt) and it wont do a whole lot against the smaller damage if you already have a healer in your group taking care of that. Instead use actual DPS skills to kill threats faster and make your life easier that way. That said its still quite powerful in vMA for the reasons mentioned above.
One last point for your "what should my stamina be ?" problem. Thats the wrong question to ask. The correct question is, "What should my health be ?" (Answer ~20k) then you invest ONLY in damage from that opoint onwards, namely weapon damage, stamina, crit% and crit damage. All other stats are irrelevant for group PvE and only some very basic stam regen (~1.6k) is needed for vMA.Jo'Khaljor3 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Azurephoenix999 wrote: »I find Vigor perfectly fine for me, my vigor heals me 14k or so over 5 seconds, I have 29k stam and 3300 wep dmg. What id really like is other options for burst heal then only rally, it kinda forces you to use 2h.
Firstly, I want to know how this guy got his Vigor to heal 5K more than mine when he has only 1.5K stamina more than me.
Secondly, I'm just annoyed that the only stamina-based heal that's available to everybody is just so unbelievably bad. It's not just bad as in "it's not the best" kind of way, it's bad in a "this ability rarely ever makes an actual difference" kind of way.
I mean, the only scenario this is useful in is if you're just marching through the wilderness and come across a few enemies whilst farming mats.
Group Dungeons - The ability is supposed to heal the entire group, but its effect is so lackluster, you need to have a healer in anyway. Having any semi-decent healer in the party means using the ability in the first place is almost completely pointless.
PVP - This ability does pretty much NOTHING in PVP.
Also, to rebut the claim that making it an instant heal would put it in direct competition with Rally, it wouldn't. Rally's primary focus is to buff weapon damage, the healing is just a bonus. Given that, they could buff Vigor AND keep Rally viable again by simply increasing the duration of the weapon damage buff, and maybe have Rally increase stamina recovery slightly as well.
So you know what? I revert to my original opinion on the matter. Vigor should heal instantly instead of over time, and the cost should be doubled to compensate. To keep Rally a viable, Two-Handed exclusive alternative, do that thing I said in the previous paragraph.
Vigor isn't bad, it is a really good heal. If you are trying to heal your group in dungeons with vigor, then I really have no words. That is just stupid. It works in PvP just fine. We don't need a stamnia Breath of Life which seems what you want vigor to be. Increase the heal and make it instant? You're crazy.PC/EU DC2 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭Vigor isn't bad, it is a really good heal. If you are trying to heal your group in dungeons with vigor, then I really have no words. That is just stupid. It works in PvP just fine. We don't need a stamnia Breath of Life which seems what you want vigor to be. Increase the heal and make it instant? You're crazy.
Not once did I say to increase the heal AND make it instant.
I'm not trying to heal my group in dungeons with vigor, but the fact that it targets allies too causes me to believe that was somewhat intended by the developers.
My issue with Vigor is that when you're being assaulted with tons of damage at once it's completely impossible to heal through it.
A prime example of this being Drain Life from the first major encounter in Vaults of Madness. Once targeted by that blue beam, your ability to heal yourself is literally the only thing that can get you through it, and it's completely impossible with Vigor. Another example is the Wildfire ability of the Daedroth enemies in the White-Gold Tower. It deals tons of DoT from no visible source even after the enemy has stopped attacking you (is there supposed to be some kind of flame animation, or did the animation just not show for me?) and your only choice is to spam heals. You can't spam Vigor, it doesn't work for that situation.
I am looking for a stamina equivalent of Rushed Ceremony. Whether Vigor can be made into it, or if one is somehow introduced in an expansion, one deserves to exist. You cannot tell me that the stamina heals we currently have are sufficient.
Edited by Azurephoenix999 on May 7, 2016 3:15PMGuildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭DeanTheCat wrote: »27.5k stamina is rather on the low side. Try upping your stats to get more milage out of Vigor. That being said, have you morphed Vigor yet? There is a morph called "Resolving Vigor", which increases the heal on self by 25%.
The only other stamina based heal is Rally, a morph of Momentum. This requires you to use a Two-handed weapon. Rally works by putting a Heal over Time on yourself, with a burst heal at the end. Refreshing Rally also gives the burst heal, with the heal at the end scaling up based on how long Rally has ticked before the recast was performed.
A combination of Rally and Vigor is all a Stamina based build has for healing, and just using one will not suffice under situations of heavy fire. By changing Vigor into a direct heal, it puts it under direct competition with Rally, destroying the synergy that currently exists between the two skills.
Meaning all stamina builds are limited to rally+vigour to actually be effective.
So much for options.
[that's not a dig at you...just the system design]
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Tormy✭✭✭Vigor is fine, if you want a bigger heal adjust your stam/wep dmg/cps and if you're dk or Templar use major mending buff before.1
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Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Azurephoenix999 wrote: »Vigor isn't bad, it is a really good heal. If you are trying to heal your group in dungeons with vigor, then I really have no words. That is just stupid. It works in PvP just fine. We don't need a stamnia Breath of Life which seems what you want vigor to be. Increase the heal and make it instant? You're crazy.
Not once did I say to increase the heal AND make it instant.
I'm not trying to heal my group in dungeons with vigor, but the fact that it targets allies too causes me to believe that was somewhat intended by the developers.
My issue with Vigor is that when you're being assaulted with tons of damage at once it's completely impossible to heal through it.
A prime example of this being Drain Life from the first major encounter in Vaults of Madness. Once targeted by that blue beam, your ability to heal yourself is literally the only thing that can get you through it, and it's completely impossible with Vigor. Another example is the Wildfire ability of the Daedroth enemies in the White-Gold Tower. It deals tons of DoT from no visible source even after the enemy has stopped attacking you (is there supposed to be some kind of flame animation, or did the animation just not show for me?) and your only choice is to spam heals. You can't spam Vigor, it doesn't work for that situation.
I am looking for a stamina equivalent of Rushed Ceremony. Whether Vigor can be made into it, or if one is somehow introduced in an expansion, one deserves to exist. You cannot tell me that the stamina heals we currently have are sufficient.
I could have sworn that you commented to increase the heal 50% and make it instant, but now I'm not seeing it, so I apologize. As for spamming heals in group dungeons. You must be in some bad groups because your healer shouldn't need you to spam heals on yourself. That is the healers job.
As for PvP, have you fought any good stam builds? Their use of shuffle/dodge roll/line of sight/CC allows them to heal quite well with vigor. In the next patch stam builds are getting a shield so pop vigor, pop shield, good to go. Add rally to that and they can be at full health real fast. It sounds like you just want to heal through a barrage of damage from multiple people and that isn't really viable. Even with heals on my magicka Templar once enough people are beating on me I am out of stamina and dead anyway.Edited by Luigi_Vampa on May 7, 2016 3:26PMPC/EU DC1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vigor is a good AoE HoT and imo it doesnt need any further buffs.
If its too weak on your character, its either playstyle or build issues.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭I could have sworn that you commented to increase the heal 50% and make it instant, but now I'm not seeing it, so I apologize. As for spamming heals in group dungeons. You must be in some bad groups because your healer shouldn't need you to spam heals on yourself. That is the healers job.
As for PvP, have you fought any good stam builds? Their use of shuffle/dodge roll/line of sight/CC allows them to heal quite well with vigor. In the next patch stam builds are getting a shield so pop vigor, pop shield, good to go. Add rally to that and they can be at full health real fast. It sounds like you just want to heal through a barrage of damage grom multiple people and that isn't really viable. Even with heals on my magicka Templar once enough people are beating on me I am out of stamina and dead anyway.
Re-read the examples I've given. I'll rely on my DPS for PVP, but some enemies in group dungeons have unavoidable, unblockable, extremely high damaging attacks that your only choice is to be healed through, either by your healer or by yourself.
I get that my healer is supposed to be healing me, but at the same time I want to be able to heal myself so that I can do so if my healer is preoccupied. You shouldn't be forced to rely on the healer for everything.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
FatKidHatchets✭✭✭One word....
Dodgeroll
Vigor is amazing especially after you get cps in healing cast, crit healing, and healing recieved.
You can heal yourself for 4-6k per second. Throw a dodge roll in and by the time your done, blam full health.1 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭FatKidHatchets wrote: »One word....
Dodgeroll
Vigor is amazing especially after you get cps in healing cast, crit healing, and healing recieved.
You can heal yourself for 4-6k per second. Throw a dodge roll in and by the time your done, blam full health.
To get it THAT good, how many CPs do you need to invest in those specific things? Also, what max stamina?Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
DeanTheCat✭✭✭✭✭Azurephoenix999 wrote: »FatKidHatchets wrote: »One word....
Dodgeroll
Vigor is amazing especially after you get cps in healing cast, crit healing, and healing recieved.
You can heal yourself for 4-6k per second. Throw a dodge roll in and by the time your done, blam full health.
To get it THAT good, how many CPs do you need to invest in those specific things? Also, what max stamina?
Quite easy for a Stamplar or a StamDK actually. Drop a cleansing ritual or a igneous shield, with +6% healing taken, +5% healing done and round 10-15% into crit damage and you'll get your 4-6k heals. Heck, if you really want to push it and get more heals, use Malubeth. There is a reason why 1vX builds use Malubeth. +30% healing taken + 6.4k heal is a really good combo, especially if you combine it with Major Mending.
On another point, I don't think you played ESO when limits on character power was in place. Most of what you think as "Expected" and "Normal" was near impossible to do back when said limits were in place.
One more question, how often do you intend to edit the OP to suit your arguments? I count 2 edits and rewrites already.Dean the Cat
Somewhat Insane Puddicat
EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.
Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.
This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.
Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.
My guides:3 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭DeanTheCat wrote: »Azurephoenix999 wrote: »FatKidHatchets wrote: »One word....
Dodgeroll
Vigor is amazing especially after you get cps in healing cast, crit healing, and healing recieved.
You can heal yourself for 4-6k per second. Throw a dodge roll in and by the time your done, blam full health.
To get it THAT good, how many CPs do you need to invest in those specific things? Also, what max stamina?
Quite easy for a Stamplar or a StamDK actually. Drop a cleansing ritual or a igneous shield, with +6% healing taken, +5% healing done and round 10-15% into crit damage and you'll get your 4-6k heals. Heck, if you really want to push it and get more heals, use Malubeth. There is a reason why 1vX builds use Malubeth. +30% healing taken + 6.4k heal is a really good combo, especially if you combine it with Major Mending.
On another point, I don't think you played ESO when limits on character power was in place. Most of what you think as "Expected" and "Normal" was near impossible to do back when said limits were in place.
One more question, how often do you intend to edit the OP to suit your arguments? I count 2 edits and rewrites already.
I've rewritten it ONCE and it wasn't to suit my argument. I then edited it afterwards to say why I rewrote it and to change the format of some of the text.
With regards to what I think of as "normal", how is asking for a simple stamina-based healing spell without some pointless gimmick unreasonable? You people are all acting as if what we currently have can be applied to all situations, which it simply can't.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0 -
Ahzek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Azurephoenix999 wrote: »DeanTheCat wrote: »Azurephoenix999 wrote: »FatKidHatchets wrote: »One word....
Dodgeroll
Vigor is amazing especially after you get cps in healing cast, crit healing, and healing recieved.
You can heal yourself for 4-6k per second. Throw a dodge roll in and by the time your done, blam full health.
To get it THAT good, how many CPs do you need to invest in those specific things? Also, what max stamina?
Quite easy for a Stamplar or a StamDK actually. Drop a cleansing ritual or a igneous shield, with +6% healing taken, +5% healing done and round 10-15% into crit damage and you'll get your 4-6k heals. Heck, if you really want to push it and get more heals, use Malubeth. There is a reason why 1vX builds use Malubeth. +30% healing taken + 6.4k heal is a really good combo, especially if you combine it with Major Mending.
On another point, I don't think you played ESO when limits on character power was in place. Most of what you think as "Expected" and "Normal" was near impossible to do back when said limits were in place.
One more question, how often do you intend to edit the OP to suit your arguments? I count 2 edits and rewrites already.
I've rewritten it ONCE and it wasn't to suit my argument. I then edited it afterwards to say why I rewrote it and to change the format of some of the text.
With regards to what I think of as "normal", how is asking for a simple stamina-based healing spell without some pointless gimmick unreasonable? You people are all acting as if what we currently have can be applied to all situations, which it simply can't.
But thats the point isnt it ? You arent supposed to have an ability that simply does everything for you. Vigor is great, it takes some setup to use correctly, but is highly rewarding when you can do so.
Also, youre the DPS, you are not supposed to stand in front of a daedroth and just heal through it at a whim. (Even though you can easily do that in normal dungeons)
Also, since you keep asking, your max stam is not the only (nor most important) factor. Get your HP to a reasonable level (20k) then stack everything into stam/wep dmg/crit%/crit dmg and you will be fine. Depending on how good your build is you will end up with bigger or lower values.
For example a redguard DK can easily reach his 40k stam + reasonable wep dmg without needing to invest a lot into any recovery.
On the other hand, i have to run my khajiit sorc at 24k stam for PvP (30k in PvE) in order to keep my regen high enough to sustain through fights, but i can invest a lot better into crit% and crit damage, and still keep a reasonable wep dmg.Jo'Khaljor1 -
Azurephoenix999✭✭✭✭✭But thats the point isnt it ? You arent supposed to have an ability that simply does everything for you.
I'm not asking for an ability that does everything, I'm asking for an ability that does exactly one thing.Vigor is great, it takes some setup to use correctly, but is highly rewarding when you can do so.
Also, youre the DPS, you are not supposed to stand in front of a daedroth and just heal through it at a whim. (Even though you can easily do that in normal dungeons)
Again, there are many situations in which Vigor simply isn't sufficient.
In addition, I'm not standing in front of the daedroth and trying to heal through it, I get hit for even an instant with its flame breath and even if I dodgeroll away from it to try and use my bow, I still take upwards of 40K in DoT from some invisible force (again, there was NO animation whatsoever to show where the damage was coming from. Was I engulfed in flames? Was I standing in some hazard that was on the ground? No way for me to tell).
That kind of healing simply isn't possible with Vigor, but it WOULD be possible with what I've described in the post. And before you point and yell "overpowered", consider the stamina cost of attempting such a feat.Also, since you keep asking, your max stam is not the only (nor most important) factor. Get your HP to a reasonable level (20k) then stack everything into stam/wep dmg/crit%/crit dmg and you will be fine. Depending on how good your build is you will end up with bigger or lower values.
For example a redguard DK can easily reach his 40k stam + reasonable wep dmg without needing to invest a lot into any recovery.
On the other hand, i have to run my khajiit sorc at 24k stam for PvP (30k in PvE) in order to keep my regen high enough to sustain through fights, but i can invest a lot better into crit% and crit damage, and still keep a reasonable wep dmg.
I'm perfectly aware that Stamina is not the only thing I should be focusing on. My maximum health is also at a reasonable level, that's not the issue.Guildmaster of Spectral Liberty - Xbox One - European Megaserver0
