One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
Some great feedback in here. We're looking at addressing the following issues:
- Lack of Sorcerer passives that are effective with stamina builds
- Critical Surge doesn't proc with Flurry or DoT based builds
- Stamina sorcerer doesn't feel unique from other stamina classes
@Erock25 @Orius13 I'm not saying remove the critical component, I'm saying allow it to proc on dots and add a HoT to compensate.And Orius, why do you want less build diversity and not more when it comes at no cost to the current design? I do use two hand, but stam sorcs who are not crit based should not HAVE to use just 2 hand or resto. I like to use almost all the weapon skill lines, and I switch between them a lot. As I explained, without 2 hand or resto, you lose an essential heal, and it really limits your design choices.
A non-crit based stamina sorc has Vigor, Dark Deal, Clannfear, and the new Flurry morph in dual wield. I just think if ZOS added a HOT to surge they would remove or lower the critical based healing and I personally like building into crit for sustain in PVP, even if it comes with a lot of downsides.
With the thought of enhancing passives to synergize a bit better with both sides of the sorc house (stam and mag), perhaps a passive which promotes the sorc to utilize a 2 hand weapon (i.e. a weapon which is not dual wieldable - staff/2H/bow) could fill a lot of gaps? Dual wield already has a boost within its passives and higher S/W damage, which is why I excluded it. Could make an argument to exclude bow as well to avoid the QQ on 1 shot snipes
For instance, "Non-ultimate abilities cast with 2H equipped receive 10% damage bonus" - Could go a long way in upping mag sorc non-overload DPS to something non-trivial.
I can't imagine that would push a destro/medium attack weave over the top of anything the other classes can put out, which is fine. I think the standard DPS needs to stay a bit lower to account for the overload blitzkrieg
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
We had cost reduction before "expert mage" was changed from 10% reduction in storm calling to increased damage.
I initially wanted a 10% reduction in magicka costs if your stamina pool was bigger than your magicka pool but I like @Cathexis of a magicka cost reduction per stamina ability slotted. It's a much more elegant way to do it. I have added it to the "Solutions" post on the first page.
How about 2 or 3% reduction of magicka costs for every stamina costing ability slotted?
That would make streak a bit more affordable on your front bar with all your weapon skills and would be an awesome spellswordy type of identity passive for sorcerer.
One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
About 'sorcs becoming more anti mage', yah, that would be a weakness. I am on the side of that kind of imbalance being interesting, but when panning out that would be a problem. But as for your first point, not all stamina builds need to use only stamina skills. If you used no more magic skills you would notice little change, but you could either use more spells when fighting mages in hopes of leaching off of their attacks, or intentionally burn your magicka (risk) for more resist (reward) to create more interesting game play. This change would be in play with other changes that let stamina sorcerer's more reliably use their magic skills so you would have options in regards to which skills you would use to alter that passive.
One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
About 'sorcs becoming more anti mage', yah, that would be a weakness. I am on the side of that kind of imbalance being interesting, but when panning out that would be a problem. But as for your first point, not all stamina builds need to use only stamina skills. If you used no more magic skills you would notice little change, but you could either use more spells when fighting mages in hopes of leaching off of their attacks, or intentionally burn your magicka (risk) for more resist (reward) to create more interesting game play. This change would be in play with other changes that let stamina sorcerer's more reliably use their magic skills so you would have options in regards to which skills you would use to alter that passive.
To your Response to my first point: im not against using magika spells on stamina spells. My Main Point is to make Magika Spells Support your Build, not define it. So i think its ok to ony be able to use 3 magika skills after each other, or to use one magika spell once a while.
I for myself i love my fear and my cloak on my stamina nightblade, so im seriously not against using magika spells. But i dont think spamming magika spells should be my main concern as a Stamina Sorc.
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Some great feedback in here. We're looking at addressing the following issues:
- Lack of Sorcerer passives that are effective with stamina builds
- Critical Surge doesn't proc with Flurry or DoT based builds
- Stamina sorcerer doesn't feel unique from other stamina classes
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
Can anyone confirm rune cage does or doesn't break on lightning form aoe pulse? I tried to test it on live last night but I forget I already took defensive rune.
PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
Can anyone confirm rune cage does or doesn't break on lightning form aoe pulse? I tried to test it on live last night but I forget I already took defensive rune.
Yes, Rune Cage, if that is the oter morph from definsiv rune, doesnt break on thundering presence. Else i would probably died in vMSA, as i used it in one Stage, to deal damage to some mubs that cant hit me.
pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
pjwb16_ESO wrote: »pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
And just because YOU think a sorc can be x, y, z means it should be and also be viable?