Stamina Sorcerer Feedback Thread: Patch 2.4.3 Update - Crit surge now affected by Battle Spirit
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luxfreak✭✭✭One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.Tank/DD with Hof HM clear1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
About 'sorcs becoming more anti mage', yah, that would be a weakness. I am on the side of that kind of imbalance being interesting, but when panning out that would be a problem. But as for your first point, not all stamina builds need to use only stamina skills. If you used no more magic skills you would notice little change, but you could either use more spells when fighting mages in hopes of leaching off of their attacks, or intentionally burn your magicka (risk) for more resist (reward) to create more interesting game play. This change would be in play with other changes that let stamina sorcerer's more reliably use their magic skills so you would have options in regards to which skills you would use to alter that passive.0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some great feedback in here. We're looking at addressing the following issues:- Lack of Sorcerer passives that are effective with stamina builds
- Critical Surge doesn't proc with Flurry or DoT based builds
- Stamina sorcerer doesn't feel unique from other stamina classes
Critical surge also doesn't proc against damage shields; which makes the ability useless in PvP.0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Erock25 @Orius13 I'm not saying remove the critical component, I'm saying allow it to proc on dots and add a HoT to compensate.And Orius, why do you want less build diversity and not more when it comes at no cost to the current design? I do use two hand, but stam sorcs who are not crit based should not HAVE to use just 2 hand or resto. I like to use almost all the weapon skill lines, and I switch between them a lot. As I explained, without 2 hand or resto, you lose an essential heal, and it really limits your design choices.
A non-crit based stamina sorc has Vigor, Dark Deal, Clannfear, and the new Flurry morph in dual wield. I just think if ZOS added a HOT to surge they would remove or lower the critical based healing and I personally like building into crit for sustain in PVP, even if it comes with a lot of downsides.
Just to be clear I would never suggest they remove the critical healing return from crit surge. I mean if you look at crit surge vs rally, the fundamental difference if both had hots would be one you can recast for a burst heal or cc immunity, and one you can recast for major sorcery+lower crit damage returned as health or higher crit damage returned as health. To me, that makes them on par with each other, but serving different utilities. Stam healing on a sorc with all of the skills you listed is only really useful when they are stacked together, and clannfear is not a reliable heal (as I explained, due to its massive cast cost, and it being pet based). Its true however, that I have not tested the new healing morphs available in bow and dual weild lines. I don't know how they would factor in yet, but on live adding a hot to the base ability of crit surge and making the crit return proc on dots seems like a reasonable compromise to me.With the thought of enhancing passives to synergize a bit better with both sides of the sorc house (stam and mag), perhaps a passive which promotes the sorc to utilize a 2 hand weapon (i.e. a weapon which is not dual wieldable - staff/2H/bow) could fill a lot of gaps? Dual wield already has a boost within its passives and higher S/W damage, which is why I excluded it. Could make an argument to exclude bow as well to avoid the QQ on 1 shot snipes
For instance, "Non-ultimate abilities cast with 2H equipped receive 10% damage bonus" - Could go a long way in upping mag sorc non-overload DPS to something non-trivial.
I can't imagine that would push a destro/medium attack weave over the top of anything the other classes can put out, which is fine. I think the standard DPS needs to stay a bit lower to account for the overload blitzkrieg
I really don't like the idea of forcing sorcerers into 2 hand, just like I don't like the idea of forcing us to use crit. Part of being able to pvp well is being able to pvp well with a variety of strategies and weapon sets, not just adequately in one particular area.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
We had cost reduction before "expert mage" was changed from 10% reduction in storm calling to increased damage.
I initially wanted a 10% reduction in magicka costs if your stamina pool was bigger than your magicka pool but I like @Cathexis of a magicka cost reduction per stamina ability slotted. It's a much more elegant way to do it. I have added it to the "Solutions" post on the first page.
How about 2 or 3% reduction of magicka costs for every stamina costing ability slotted?
That would make streak a bit more affordable on your front bar with all your weapon skills and would be an awesome spellswordy type of identity passive for sorcerer.
@Yolokin_Swagonborn I think this would be sufficient, but not a real solution. I think it might be somewhat problematic, as a sorcerer you still often slot quite a lot of magicka abilities, even though you may be running a stam build. As a flat modifier like that I imagine that you'd need it to be 3% per since with 5 skills thats a 15% reduction, and that may still not be sufficiently high enough to reduce the cost of higher end skills like daedric mines for example. It might be beneficial to include some kind of secondary feature, like a 25%, 34%, or 50% chance (depending on what isn't too overpowered) to reduce the cost of a magicka ability by 50% when casting a stam ability, and then adjust the flat modifier accordingly.
Flat modifiers in passives to me are like bandaid fixes. They alleviate some of the burden, but they dont address the root problem by evaluating the math in practice.
Of course, the important thing to remember is, these are just POSSIBLE suggestions. Please take my posts with a grain of salt and creative mindset.Edited by Cathexis on May 5, 2016 11:04PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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luxfreak✭✭✭One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
About 'sorcs becoming more anti mage', yah, that would be a weakness. I am on the side of that kind of imbalance being interesting, but when panning out that would be a problem. But as for your first point, not all stamina builds need to use only stamina skills. If you used no more magic skills you would notice little change, but you could either use more spells when fighting mages in hopes of leaching off of their attacks, or intentionally burn your magicka (risk) for more resist (reward) to create more interesting game play. This change would be in play with other changes that let stamina sorcerer's more reliably use their magic skills so you would have options in regards to which skills you would use to alter that passive.
To your Response to my first point: im not against using magika spells on stamina spells. My Main Point is to make Magika Spells Support your Build, not define it. So i think its ok to ony be able to use 3 magika skills after each other, or to use one magika spell once a while.
I for myself i love my fear and my cloak on my stamina nightblade, so im seriously not against using magika spells. But i dont think spamming magika spells should be my main concern as a Stamina Sorc.Tank/DD with Hof HM clear1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
I am against that. For 2 Reasons:
1. Thats more of an argument against buffing maigka recovering for sorcs any more:
Its a STAMINA sorc, so i would wish for him to have reliable STAMINA spell for him to work with. I DONT want him to be to reliant on his magika spells. Ofc i can reason with him usong magika spells for his utility. But i dont want a Stamina Sorc flashing around just like any other sorc. Some GOOD placed Streakes are what i wish for.
2. This is more against the Quote:
This Anti-Mage Ability would shift the Balance of the Stamina Sorcs, and Sorcs in generall in a Bad Way.
Sorcs would get pretty Strong against Magika Players, making the Sorc a Anti- Mage Class.
And then imagine your a Stam Sorc, and going up against another Stamina Class, then you suddenly loosing the whole magika sustain and tankyness you get from you passiv. So you would loose that fight very, if you just used to the setup agains Magika Players. It would mean a kind of certain Death for not so good players.
If you have something to say to this, im opne to hear your opinion on that.
About 'sorcs becoming more anti mage', yah, that would be a weakness. I am on the side of that kind of imbalance being interesting, but when panning out that would be a problem. But as for your first point, not all stamina builds need to use only stamina skills. If you used no more magic skills you would notice little change, but you could either use more spells when fighting mages in hopes of leaching off of their attacks, or intentionally burn your magicka (risk) for more resist (reward) to create more interesting game play. This change would be in play with other changes that let stamina sorcerer's more reliably use their magic skills so you would have options in regards to which skills you would use to alter that passive.
To your Response to my first point: im not against using magika spells on stamina spells. My Main Point is to make Magika Spells Support your Build, not define it. So i think its ok to ony be able to use 3 magika skills after each other, or to use one magika spell once a while.
I for myself i love my fear and my cloak on my stamina nightblade, so im seriously not against using magika spells. But i dont think spamming magika spells should be my main concern as a Stamina Sorc.
It's just an option. It gives the choice to continue doing what you've been, or push yourself and risk resources for the return of an advantage against magic based enemies, it is narrowed focus but I was thinking it would add another angle to work with.0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.0 -
Daymond✭✭✭Rune cage is a good cc it lasts long time and doesnt break on dots which is nice. The sorc abilities I use are Bound Armaments, Rune Cage, Boundless Storm, Ball of Lightning, and Negate Magic. I also will probably also use crit surge if they ever allow you to proc it with dots or atleast flurry. All those are good skill depending on how you use them. Especially rune cage so please stop trying to get rid of it.1 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.Edited by Cathexis on May 5, 2016 11:30PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some great feedback in here. We're looking at addressing the following issues:- Lack of Sorcerer passives that are effective with stamina builds
- Critical Surge doesn't proc with Flurry or DoT based builds
- Stamina sorcerer doesn't feel unique from other stamina classes
You should add to that list the only class with a non-physical damage ultimate even after the stamina changes.
May I offer up the practically unsef version of overload.
And pretty please give major expidition back to hurricane/new thundering presence0 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭The spell damage/weapon damage passive could use an update to be at least as effective as the fighters guild passive now giving 3% weapon damage per skill.
0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just want to comment about Crystal Blast. Crystal Blast is a skill I WANT to like, but can't bring myself to do so. The animation for it is actually really neat to look at. Its slow and ponderous (like Dark Flare) without any of the wallop. It underwhelms the same way Solar Barrage does. You look at it and think "WOAH THAT WAS COOL" but then you see how low the damage numbers and cry a little inside. People don't like Crystal Blast because it just isn't good enough for what you're giving up (Crystal Frags). The opportunity cost is stark, and everyone who plays the class knows it.
Part of me would be sad to see this skill get wiped out purely because of the style behind it. There is a part of me that wants to see aoe carnage coming out of the flying wall of daedric crystals. I understand the reasoning though why people request the change and there are some neat options you could fit in here, like 'Bound Weapon Strike' or somesuch.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
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Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
Edit: Also the Blood Magic passive only heals for 4% in PvP, and has a 1 second internal cooldown. So Mines are not effective for healing.Edited by Ajax_22 on May 6, 2016 2:04AM0 -
Daymond✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.Edited by Daymond on May 6, 2016 1:46AM1 -
ClockworkArc✭✭✭I just wanted to let my ideas be known! I want a reason to dust off my stam sorc!- Crit Surge should have two ICDs if possible. One for DoTs and one for non-DoTs, they would function independantly, it would be like having Three Buffs from the ability: Major Brut, Crit Surge as we know it, and DoT Crit Surge (which only procs on DoTs). That way you could get your big heals from your non-DoTs and you could also get passive healing from your DoTs. The same 100 millisecond internal cooldown would apply so that you're not getting overhealed from aoe DoTs.
- Dark Deal and its morphs could be animation cancelable! This alone would add a lot of variety to PvE Sorc Tanks and PvP set ups.
- Clannfear could scale with Max Stam or Max Magicka but still cost magicka (Probably wouldn't help PvP that much but would give Stam Sorc tanks a pet and allow them to benefit from the new Summoning Passive!).
I also really like the suggestions around an "Anti-Mage" Capacitor passive or making streak more viable for the stam sorc.Edited by ClockworkArc on May 6, 2016 3:08AM1 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bound Armaments suggestion;
Give it grim focus treatment' after activating it; every x amount of attacks received or attacks preformed allows you to activate an ability effect;
You could make the effect anything you liked' a daderic explosion doing physical damage
Daderic thorns in your armor for x seconds doing y damage every second
Or something else entirely but make it interactive; it also gets you into the passives which are being looked at0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points5 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Scrap bound arma for bound weapons give a 12% wep dmg increase when active slotted give 8% max stam sounds op as hell but it would beef up stam sorcs to reasonable levels andboffer optins for heavy armor sorcs to maintain the dmg of medium armor only with the changes to heavy passives for recovery.0 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.Edited by Epona222 on May 6, 2016 8:36AMGM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.4 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@pjwb16_ESO just to add to what epona said, if stamina races can be used with the sorcerer class, then stamina sorcerers should be a supported play style.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
Can anyone confirm rune cage does or doesn't break on lightning form aoe pulse? I tried to test it on live last night but I forget I already took defensive rune.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
pjwb16_ESO✭✭✭✭pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
And just because YOU think a sorc can be x, y, z means it should be and also be viable?~ here since Beta
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luxfreak✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
Can anyone confirm rune cage does or doesn't break on lightning form aoe pulse? I tried to test it on live last night but I forget I already took defensive rune.
Yes, Rune Cage, if that is the oter morph from definsiv rune, doesnt break on thundering presence. Else i would probably died in vMSA, as i used it in one Stage, to deal damage to some mubs that cant hit me.Tank/DD with Hof HM clear0 -
Armann✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »@PainfulFAFA look at the base magician cost of most sorcerer skills, the higher end skills basically can't be used effectively. There is no way to use deadric mines effectively, for example, on a stam sorc. Not to mention the compounding cost of bolt.
yeah i absolutely agree. The most i can streak in a row is 2, MAYBE 3 depending on food and because of that:
No mines
No pets
No dark deal
No runes
No shields
Capacitor would be a place to start. It gives 10% magicka regen but they could make it so that when you take X amount of hits, the cost for all sorcerer magicka abilties is reduced by X amount. Fits the whole idea of a capacitor. :P
I completely disagree. As a trade off for being a stam based class you lose magic utility and gain more survivability. The instances when you need to use Streak more than twice in a 4 second window are nearly nonexistent. Realistically, unless you are playing some off the wall build, there are only 4 magic based abilities in the Sorc skill lines that a Stam Sorc would ever use: Dark Exchange (which no one uses due to cast time, and poor resource return), Lightning Form (currently on Live and PTS the Magic morph is better), Surge, and Bolt Escape. Mines do terrible damage, and the root from them and Encase is useless. You are better off trowing down Caltrops, and using Lightning Form. Rune Prison is just a bad CC. Pets need a lot of work, because currently they are useless for most endgame content. Using Conjured Ward on a Stam Sorc isn't worth the even half the magic it costs to cast it.One old idea for Capacitor was, going back to what defined sorcerer's in past games, is a pseuto magicka absorb. The lower the sorcerer's magicka %, the more spell resist they gain. When hit by a form of magic damage you proc a magicka restore (could be based off of size of largest resource pool) similar to heavy armor. Magicka sorcs gain sustain if they stay active in combat, and stamina sorcs gain the ability to reliably recharge magicka (and can gain spell resist by burning their magicka pool).
This idea sounds more gimmicky than useful. Making the passive powerful enough to actually give noticeable returns would be either unbalanced, or make us a soft counter to all magic builds. You can't introduce something that makes one class a soft counter to half the classes in game in an MMO that isn't "Rock, Paper, Scissors" based. I think our magic pools are perfectly fine as is, and I don't think adding more ways to regain magic for a Stam Sorc would do anything significant for our class either in PvP or Trials.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is not how this game is balanced whether or not balancing it that way is actually fundamentally right (which personally I think it isn't, specifically since in reality it doesnt turn out that way, its more like rock paper scissors dynamite, where dynamite explodes everything).
If you think stam classes, especially stam sorcs, are more survivable than magicka classes, you're out of your mind. Shield spam mag sorcs can outmaneuver way more players than a stam sorc ever could.
... and just because you think spells are useless doesn't mean they are, and my 2 years of playing as a stam sorc on dozens of specs and skill rotations tells me the biggest reason those skills are useless is because they are not magicka efficient enough, and to a lesser extent because the damage is poor. Mines, ward, and encase are great examples of this.
Defensive Rune is one of our best CC abilities available. There are dozens of times where you need to streak more than twice, and streaking twice obliterates your entire magicka pool which is a huge disadvantage.
I make use of a lot more sorcerer abilities than you listed. I use... Dark exchange, surge, bolt escape, lightning form, defensive rune, bound armaments, crystal frags, twilight, clanfear, and velo curse (plus negate and overload)... Very successfully too.
I would LOVE to use mines, they are a pvp tanking dream. 8% heal every time someone steps on one, and a 2 second cc, and you can bunker and use overload from range AND hunter procs. It'd be perfect, but the mag cost is too high for recasting.
If you had bothered to actually read what I said then you would know that I did not say this game is "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balanced nor did I say it should be.
Magic Sorcs are the only class in game that can stack all of their stats in to one thing, and gain high damage and good survivability. Due to shield stacking they are the exception not the rule. Every other class gives up some survivability in the form of less Dodge Roll, CC Break, and Block when they chose to go magic.
I never said anything was useless. I said unless you were running an off the wall build (read: not typical, unusual, strange, ect) there are only 4 abilities that cost magic that would be beneficial to run on a Stam Sorc.
Rune Prison is not "one of our best CC abilities" it's our only pure CC ability available. To use Rune Prison effectively you have to center your entire build around it. As a Stam Sorc this means running a Bow/Dual Wield DoT build. Which means you loose access to Lightning Form since it breaks Rune Prison, and Crit Surge since DoTs can't proc it.
I have been in very few situations that I have ever had to Streak more than twice in 4-6 seconds. In every single one of those situations I put myself there due to playing poorly, severely underestimating my enemy, or just plain being outplayed.
Mines are badass, and I wish we would get a stam morph of them. You can still use Mines if you chose to give up Streak for them. That is all part of being a Stam class. We can't get everything, and have to pick and chose what utility we use. If you want to be able to spam Mines, Ward, and Encase all day then go be a Magic Sorc.
As far as i know rune cage does not break when you use the Lightning form.
Can anyone confirm rune cage does or doesn't break on lightning form aoe pulse? I tried to test it on live last night but I forget I already took defensive rune.
Yes, Rune Cage, if that is the oter morph from definsiv rune, doesnt break on thundering presence. Else i would probably died in vMSA, as i used it in one Stage, to deal damage to some mubs that cant hit me.
Interesting, so one could use Rune Cage as a tool to test what abilites the game consider to be a DoT. Or they could just fix tooltips to make this clear.EU megaserver | XboxNord Nightblade | Ebonheart PactImperial Dragonknight | Ebonheart PactDunmer Sorcerer | Ebonheart PactDunmer Warden | Ebonheart PactOrc Necromancer | Daggerfall CovenantAltmer Templar | Aldmeri Dominion0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭I think @Wrobel has actually missed a significant element of the problem for stamina sorcerers... Yes over 1/2 of the class passives are ineffective, and stamina sorcerers are barely sorcerers at all (uniqueness is non existent), and critical surge doesn't work with DoT builds or channels. But the core problem relates to the why associated with the above (with the exception of critical surge).
The answer is twofold. The class skills have a very, very limited subset of effective stamina sorcerer usable skills due in part to the high cost of the utility skills and in part because the vast majority of skills scale with magicka (and associated attributes) - including ultimates which gain from magicka related cps and support magicka better (overload for example allows class, magicka, 3rd bar skills but not weapon skills). This heavily influences both access to class passives and their effectiveness. The second is that only a single play style is effectively supported by class skills and that is a highly mobile critical dependent dps style which pushes a 2h weapon builds for its synergies - and this is because critical surge has provided the main class defining stamina build skill. Now I am aware that other builds are possible and many work but that is in spite of, rather than because of, the currently available class skills.
Tanks are not supported (very limited survival options), other weapon skill lines have minimal synergy due to dots, channels, no gap closers, etc.
Now the new update may help with the issue of diversity due to the changes to weapon skill lines, but at an even heavier cost in terms of stamina sorcerer uniqueness as stamina sorcerers have less and less need or benefit from class skills - being better served by weapon or guild skills.
So what can be done?
There have been some great suggestions in thisand many other threads that would help, but the key is to return to the key themes of the sorcerer. A sorcerer, whether magicka or stamina, should be able to use summons to effectively support them in combat and should be able to cast both offensive and defensive spells that support them in combat. This means that the class utility spells must be affordable and effective for stamina builds as well as magicka.
What does this translate to?
All lightning based passives should be able to effect physical attacks under specific circumstances, such as when critical surge or lightning form are active.
Pets, or at least the Clannfear, should scale in effect with stamina but cost magicka for the special ability. The rebate passive should reduce cost and cast time to resummon a dead pet rather than give back magicka.
Exploitation should provide a personal weapon critical buff.
Utility class skills should have a significant cost reduction (see ideas within this thread) - esp. Pets, Encase, Daedric Mines, Rune Prison.
Blood Magic should trigger on cast or hit (not damage).
Expert Mage should match or be better than the damage boost from Fighters Guild (personally I think Fighters guild bonus is too high anyway).
Change Lightning Flood into a Thunderclap gap closer which teleports the caster to the ground targeted location (alternatively a targeted opponent to avoid the bolt escape issue) and performs a short duration aoe knockdown and physical damage (cost/scale stamina). This supports non critical charge melee builds and provides some stamina cc.
Give critical surge the major berserker buff instead of the major brutality buff. This is because major brutality can be accessed elsewhere and so adds little to the class uniqueness - plus stamina sorcerer dps and to an extent magicka sorcerer dps is low compared to other classes. The ability to load up two powerful buffs at a cost in skill slots, would be a great boon for sorcerers. However if this was deemed too powerful, then maybe a major Force buff (which synergises with the critical theme).
Change Bound Armaments such that the minor Resolve and heavy attack damage is removed. Instead it provides extra returns on a heavy attack (+15%), and a bonus to all weapon damage (5%). It should also work like other toggles and have an activation ability which would be a good physical attack with a debuff. This makes the ability useful and interesting.
Overload needs to have a stamina friendly varient, scaling with appropriate cps and allowing weapons to be used on the overload bar.
Naturally these changes are just ideas, but I hope the core analysis helps the debate.1 -
Rakkul✭✭✭pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
If it was Tolkien, it would have panned out like this:
[Gandalf] "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
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Balrog notices that it took longer than 6 seconds to say that and promptly rips the head off the unshielded wizard.2 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭pjwb16_ESO wrote: »pjwb16_ESO wrote: »I actually do not think there should be any available Stamina Sorcerer Class. Sorcerers as the name implies are using sorcery to achieve their goals. They do not take a large two-handed sword and smash stuff with pure brutality, they use finesse and magical skills to do it. Therefore Stamina Sorcerers would largely break the immersion @Wrobel
If you really want to have a Sorcerer Class which uses Stamina as their main pool instead magicka, I would say that the animations of the stamina skills should keep the flair of magic. Take for example Magicka Skills and just make morphs available that use stamina e.g. a stamina morph of force pulse for a staff or at least make it like you are able to summon a melee weapon and then use stamina as a ressource for this summoned weapons skill. This would require a new weapon skill line "summoned weapon" or something similar. Maybe put it in the Sorcerers class tree or in the weapon trees but do not just make a sorcerer just another melee berseker without any individuality.
Please consider what it would do with the immersion and lore of the game.
I honestly think the point of the discussion about stamsorcs has just whooshed above your head at around the same distance as the International Space Station (ie. about 200 miles or so out of range).
For a start, Sorcerer class (in as much as classes existed) in TES was never straightforward mage, it was more of an armored spellcaster using blade and bow. If a second point is needed, every other class can be specced into magicka or stamina in some meaningful way. Just because YOU think a sorc cannot be x, y, and z for whatever pre-defined "that's the way fantasy works" reason that you hold on to, does not mean a stamsorc should not exist and should not be viable. I don't play a stamsorc (I don't play a magsorc either) but that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be a viable build.
This is Elder Scrolls, not Tolkien.
And just because YOU think a sorc can be x, y, z means it should be and also be viable?
This is ESO. All other classes can reliably build around any role, and not only that but also use their class defining skills to support it. Why then should sorcerer's be the only class 'not allowed' to do this 'because their name in other lore universes says they can't do anything but be mages'? And feel free to ignore what defines a sorcerer in the elder scrolls universe, this is purely a game play question at this point.1 -
DDragon✭Regarding pets (and whole discussion whether pets should scale of magika/stamina etc):
In "lower" PvE (solo content and 4 man dungeons) it might be nice to have a pet and take advantages of passives. In “high” PvE (trials) you have to maximize your dps at all cost (there are serious pressure on dps in such content as vet Maw), that means slotting skills that give you best boost. In most cases always +% weapon damage (which you obtain both from storm calling spells or FG abilities) would be better than stamina regen (especially with synergy spear from templar).
Taking that into account, in order to slot pet in PvE it must give something “better” or “worth slotting”. This might be
- Some direct damage scaled of weapon dmg/stamina (which is lacking ATM)
- Single target DOT applied to target (which is lacking ATM)
- Some dps enhancing buff (berserker for instance) (which is lacking, after all brutality can be obtained from potion)
I wrote previously, that in order to make clannfear/twilight applicable in “high” PvE, it should apply direct single target DoT or give berserker (providing that camouflaged hunter is not working as intended, because pet+berserk+StamReg < crit+berserk+%WeapDmg).
Now you may disagree with this simple khajiit, but this one thinks simple scaling pets of stamina would not solve the issue of its utility when maxing single target dps.
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Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭@DDragon that may be true for high pve dps, but that is not the whole of the endgame. Stamina builds should be able to build as dps or tank - so the alternative is for the pet to be survivable enough and off tanky enough (or provide an emergency heal) sufficient for the tank to recover or to rez the healer. Or they need to support PvP builds by surviving long enough to let us use their active abilities.
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