Make the range of Jesus Beam 18 meters.

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Make Dark Flare insta-cast when target is below 40% HP.

Remove RD, and give us back blinding flash.

Fin.

Ooo, Ill take that offer

KenaPKK · May 2016

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

myrrrorb14_ESO · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

KenaPKK · May 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

myrrrorb14_ESO · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

Yes they are execution skills, but no you still can't compare a channeled skill to an instant cast. They ae so different from them it's just not comparible.

Love that DK execute! So OP.

Zheg · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

I don't even run a shield on my healer. 28-30k hp, a purge slotted, and most of the time that's all it takes to react to a jesus beam. Heal up after, unless they used it at high health in which case you can laugh at them, and then laugh at all of the people on the forums pretending like it's a problem.

The people complaining want to run around in a glass cannon or bare-bones hp build for 1vXing, and/or rely on dodge as their only defense. They don't want to build tankier, they don't want to sacrifice a skill on their bar as a counter. As was said earlier, stam will have bone shield on top of everything else, and they still want jesus beam nerfed. This is one of the few times I'm glad wrobel isn't listening.

Minno wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Yup thats my argument too. I've said it before, health and defense now play a better role in this game than before. If you want to ignore it, that's fine. But don't base nerf calls on the fact you went full weapon dmg/resource and expect to run into a zerg head-on.

I run a 29k health mageblade with all impen and heavy self-heals.

The problem is not durability. The problem is that a templar can sit well outside of my range of reaction, push one button at me while I am at full health, and make it so that if I fall below 40% health, I die. In its current state, a Radiant held on a person at high health while they take fire from other players is practically a 40% max health debuff because if they reach 40% health, they get chunked by the execute crits without the ability to block or dodge the hits. RD is the only skill in the game that behaves this way.

You have cloak. Seriously, stop exaggerating. I've never seen a nb complain about an opponent being out of range for them to react to. Are you worried the magplar is going to caltrops you?

The Xv1 arguments are also moronic. If a sorc casts mages fury/wrath while a group pummels you, all the while being able to frags/crushing shock you because they aren't locked in a channel, does that result in a situation where you miraculously live? Please.

And there's the point. What is a melee, cloakless class or a ranged character without a ranged interrupt to do?

And the sorc casting Wrath on you in an outnumbered situation is next to no pressure, even with their other incoming damage. RD applies greater damage and can't be dodged or blocked, and at just as far range.

A sorc putting curse, frags, CS, mages wrath/fury on me is far more pressure than a Jesus beam.

Templars have no trouble against RD because of purify and strong heals.

Nb can cloak it.

Sorcs can rotate shields, cast a single frag, or more commonly just interrupt with CS. Stam sorcs are out of luck because wrobel reasons, but they can use poison arrow and next patch have bone shield.

DK have a harder time, but still have access to purge and poison arrow. I feel little sympathy because I have to deal with my DFs, javelin and reflective light being thrown back in my face. It's hypocritical to complain about being countered when you can counter that same person's majority of dps.

So, are we still going to grasp at straws and come up with examples of poorly designed builds, or builds that want to be able to counter people but not have to worry about someone countering them?

frozywozy · May 2016

Interesting to see the amount of players actually talking against this skill today. When the first "Nerf Radiant Destruction thread was made by Lyar, I was pretty much the only one defending his point and all I heard was "slot purge" for a modest cost of 4.3k magicka and you should be allright with a 12k magicka pool while using hardened armor, igneous shield and dragon fire scale. Seems like alot of people changed their mind or they were just too scarrred to voice themselves against the templar hordes.

Looks like adjusting the range is the appropriated way to address this skill.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Wrobel said Templars have a house an if you walk in it , it's gonna be bad for you . Radiant just means stay off their sidewalk too . In fact stay across the street ...

Sallington · May 2016

If you want the range to be decreased, can we at least get some kind of disengage out of it?

Maybe activate the skill again during it's channel propels you backwards similar to magnum shot? (obviously stopping the channel)

Minno · May 2016

danno8 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Make Dark Flare insta-cast when target is below 40% HP.

Remove RD, and give us back blinding flash.

Fin.

I'll take that.

I would take it too.

Except for one thing. I would like at least 1 ranged skill that can't be negated by Flappy Wings and sent back at me +20% damage + stun.

Blazing shield then range attacks, jabs, or meteor.

DK's are strong counters to range but lack range entirely.

Templars have range, but not as powerful as a Sorc. Therefore we also receive melee attacks, a shield that returns dmg, and a robust healing system.

I'd say you shouldn't nerf a unique DK skill if you have access to an unreflective ultimate, unreflective magicka melee skill, and a shield that returns magicka upon dmg.

Zheg · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

25% executes are meant for pve. If a DK got one I doubt we'd see any intelligent player use it in pvp, so this is just a red herring.

The reason Jesus beam starts executing higher is because it's a channel and makes you vulnerable. As such, making it closer to melee range just increases the likelihood you get bashed. The skill is designed to be used from range following the equally 28m cast of DF, another thing that suffers the susceptibility of being interrupted. None of the nerfs people ask for (and are also unable to provide sound reasoning for) work if the skill is still a long duration channel.

How about this, all of the casts and channels can go to NBs and I'll take the low cost instant cast skills instead? I'd certainly be happy with that trade.

Minno · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Interesting to see the amount of players actually talking against this skill today. When the first "Nerf Radiant Destruction thread was made by Lyar, I was pretty much the only one defending his point and all I heard was "slot purge" for a modest cost of 4.3k magicka and you should be allright with a 12k magicka pool while using hardened armor, igneous shield and dragon fire scale. Seems like alot of people changed their mind or they were just too scarrred to voice themselves against the templar hordes. Looks like adjusting the range is the appropriated way to address this skill.

The cheapest option will be a shield and LOS tactic. Especially now that shields are open to all.

Darnathian · May 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

The worst part of this fricken skill is theres always one A-hole standing way back behind 10 others chain casting it on you nonstop while the other 10 are beating on you.

Such a weak move.

Hey I'm that one A-hole I'm addicted to salt and rage tells, this is fastest way to get both >:D

Its also the quickest way to make you look like a total zergbad with absolutely no skill whatsoever. Stand way back, no recourse or risk at all, apply and just stand there. Seems legit.

Especially when the target is a fully shielded sorc with full health and resources, and your whole gameplan is to just keep it on them the entire time someone else actually fights them. Weak.

Lol. Full shielded sorc and your saying he's not skillfull? Right. Seems legit.

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

As long as its channeled sure!

Armitas · May 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Wrobel said Templars have a house an if you walk in it , it's gonna be bad for you . Radiant just means stay off their sidewalk too . In fact stay across the street ...

I think the Templar house might be in a gated community.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

25% executes are meant for pve. If a DK got one I doubt we'd see any intelligent player use it in pvp, so this is just a red herring.

The reason Jesus beam starts executing higher is because it's a channel and makes you vulnerable. As such, making it closer to melee range just increases the likelihood you get bashed. The skill is designed to be used from range following the equally 28m cast of DF, another thing that suffers the susceptibility of being interrupted. None of the nerfs people ask for (and are also unable to provide sound reasoning for) work if the skill is still a long duration channel.

How about this, all of the casts and channels can go to NBs and I'll take the low cost instant cast skills instead? I'd certainly be happy with that trade.

What about Endless Fury? That is used by the vast majority of sorcs in PvP, but it procs at 20%. Executes that proc lower than 50% are not "meant for PvE." They're plenty useful in PvP.

Heck, Impale is probably the least used execute in the game, but it is a wonderful skill which increases Swallow Soul mageblade's kill potential by a ton. It hits like a truck and applies its damage instantly, allowing it to be timed precisely between dodge rolls. It's practically a 25% max health debuff if you can hit it through those dodge rolls and block, and despite its lack of popularity in PvP, I consider it to be as near to balanced as skills can come.

Also you are no more vulnerable using RD at range than you are getting up close for a melee or shorter ranged skill, and if you become threatened.....you can stop your own channel and respond. I don't understand this channeled skill argument. Would you try to apply Inevitable Detonation in melee range? No. Don't use RD there either, and you incur little risk. But even if you do get interrupted -- god forbid! -- you can just break free from the little stun like any other cc and keep on fighting. It's not like you lost any pressure.

frozywozy · May 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Purdomination33 wrote: »

It's weird that you cannot dodge or block it. Are there many other skills in this came that you cannot dodge or block?

Well the root of the complaints is the one trick pony defense of dodge. People made this there main and in some cases only defense. They built their character around this central pillar of dodge out of trouble and run / counter attack. It's beautiful because it does not need to be slotted to provide defense.

Counters to dodge have been implimented (and to block, when that was everyone's easy button). They added increased cost for multiple rolls.

The thing is being able to roll dodge out of a channel was a bug and never intended. It just took them so long to fix it that everyone just excepted it that way.

When Zenimax decided to nerf the cloaking mechanics, nightblades got really pissed and scared about how their survivability was going to be affected. Me and plenty of others told them to adjust by using other skills at their disposal such as Shadow Image and Double Take.

Now that dodge rolling is getting countered by Radiant Destruction, people are panicking and looking for a solution. Where is the solution? There isn't any. Using Efficient Purge is not an option. It's nowhere near the Shadow Image plan B for a magicka nightblade which ALSO cost magicka. Give me a way to escape or give me a stamina purge and I'll be happy. I'll have to play with the new Bone Shield and see how it goes. Otherwise, reduce the range is the way to go.

Zheg · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

25% executes are meant for pve. If a DK got one I doubt we'd see any intelligent player use it in pvp, so this is just a red herring.

The reason Jesus beam starts executing higher is because it's a channel and makes you vulnerable. As such, making it closer to melee range just increases the likelihood you get bashed. The skill is designed to be used from range following the equally 28m cast of DF, another thing that suffers the susceptibility of being interrupted. None of the nerfs people ask for (and are also unable to provide sound reasoning for) work if the skill is still a long duration channel.

How about this, all of the casts and channels can go to NBs and I'll take the low cost instant cast skills instead? I'd certainly be happy with that trade.

What about Endless Fury? That is used by the vast majority of sorcs in PvP, but it procs at 20%. Executes that proc lower than 50% are not "meant for PvE." They're plenty useful in PvP.

Heck, Impale is probably the least used execute in the game, but it is a wonderful skill which increases Swallow Soul mageblade's kill potential by a ton. It hits like a truck and applies its damage instantly, allowing it to be timed precisely between dodge rolls. It's practically a 25% max health debuff if you can hit it through those dodge rolls and block, and despite its lack of popularity in PvP, I consider it to be as near to balanced as skills can come.

Also you are no more vulnerable using RD at range than you are getting up close for a melee or shorter ranged skill, and if you become threatened.....you can stop your own channel and respond. I don't understand this channeled skill argument. Would you try to apply Inevitable Detonation in melee range? No. Don't use RD there either, and you incur little risk. But even if you do get interrupted -- god forbid! -- you can just break free from the little stun like any other cc and keep on fighting. It's not like you lost any pressure.

Making a Templar CC break from an interrupt IS pressure. That's how you fight magplars and healers, you pressure their stam pool and reflect DFs. you also don't seem to have ever played Templar, or are at least not very familiar with casts/channels. Of course you're vulnerable when casting, and not just becaue of the interrupt, but the simple fact that you can't block at the same time. Every other execute can be block casted, since you're so fond of trying to compare them all.

Fair enough on the sorc execute, but I make a strong argument that it's used because it's on a delay and allows for a burst rotation. If it was instant cast like impale, not sure many would use it outside pve. You ready to argue that?

I'd also point out that you once argued NB should be allowed to continue cloaking meteor because they can't afford to block like the other three classes. You're going to have to do a much better job convincing me why RD is actually unbalanced, and that this isn't just another thread looking to have a counters/nuisances to someones build nerfed.

SneaK · May 2016

Should be able to dodge it. That change would have little to do with PvE and everything to do with PvP.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · May 2016

IMO Radiant Oppression is fine. Powerful yes but not the hardest hitting nor the best ranged ability in the game. Several counters to it since it is channeled and requires the target to be at a certain health %. Acting like it's the only ability with a 40+ meter range is disingenuous to any argument. Cyrodiil buffs aren't exclusive to it and Lethal Arrow has an even greater range and hits hard regardless of health. Not to mention builds that have combos that kill players in far less than 3 seconds while they are maxed health. I get why a certain group doesn't like it but the source of the problem isn't the ability itself. It is the fact a Templar(s) jumped you while fighting and you were dropped into execute range.

Maybe we should nerf all the good Gank abilities too cause of how many deaths they have caused. Since I can't stop myself, let's start with Vicious Death. Kills several people instantly and requires no skill.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

There is no other skill like radiant. So comparing anything to it is like comparing apples to wheels.

Talking about buffing other executes is a fair statement. Most of the executes feel a bit weak to me.

There are many executes in the game -- Killer Blade / Impale, Executioner, Mage's Wrath, Poison Injection, RD, etc.

They perform the same function and are therefore able to be compared directly. RD performs the best out of these by far imo.

Oh, and don't forget that op DK execute.

25% executes are meant for pve. If a DK got one I doubt we'd see any intelligent player use it in pvp, so this is just a red herring.

The reason Jesus beam starts executing higher is because it's a channel and makes you vulnerable. As such, making it closer to melee range just increases the likelihood you get bashed. The skill is designed to be used from range following the equally 28m cast of DF, another thing that suffers the susceptibility of being interrupted. None of the nerfs people ask for (and are also unable to provide sound reasoning for) work if the skill is still a long duration channel.

How about this, all of the casts and channels can go to NBs and I'll take the low cost instant cast skills instead? I'd certainly be happy with that trade.

What about Endless Fury? That is used by the vast majority of sorcs in PvP, but it procs at 20%. Executes that proc lower than 50% are not "meant for PvE." They're plenty useful in PvP.

Heck, Impale is probably the least used execute in the game, but it is a wonderful skill which increases Swallow Soul mageblade's kill potential by a ton. It hits like a truck and applies its damage instantly, allowing it to be timed precisely between dodge rolls. It's practically a 25% max health debuff if you can hit it through those dodge rolls and block, and despite its lack of popularity in PvP, I consider it to be as near to balanced as skills can come.

Also you are no more vulnerable using RD at range than you are getting up close for a melee or shorter ranged skill, and if you become threatened.....you can stop your own channel and respond. I don't understand this channeled skill argument. Would you try to apply Inevitable Detonation in melee range? No. Don't use RD there either, and you incur little risk. But even if you do get interrupted -- god forbid! -- you can just break free from the little stun like any other cc and keep on fighting. It's not like you lost any pressure.

Making a Templar CC break from an interrupt IS pressure. That's how you fight magplars and healers, you pressure their stam pool and reflect DFs. you also don't seem to have ever played Templar, or are at least not very familiar with casts/channels. Of course you're vulnerable when casting, and not just becaue of the interrupt, but the simple fact that you can't block at the same time. Every other execute can be block casted, since you're so fond of trying to compare them all.

Fair enough on the sorc execute, but I make a strong argument that it's used because it's on a delay and allows for a burst rotation. If it was instant cast like impale, not sure many would use it outside pve. You ready to argue that?

I'd also point out that you once argued NB should be allowed to continue cloaking meteor because they can't afford to block like the other three classes. You're going to have to do a much better job convincing me why RD is actually unbalanced, and that this isn't just another thread looking to have a counters/nuisances to someones build nerfed.

Sorcs do like Endless Fury so much because it is on a delay. That's why it's better than Impale. I like Impale so much because it damages instantly at range, but I would prefer -- and other mageblades would jump to use Impale -- if it applied its damage whenever the enemy got into execute range within a 4 second window like Endless Fury.

But that doesn't mean that Impale or Killer Blade (post DB because of CP) or Endless Fury or any of the low execute threshold executes are "meant for PvE" i.e. subpar in PvP. It just means that 50% health threshold executes like Executioner and RD are preferred.

And I argued before that nightblades should continue to be able to cloak meteor because it is mechanically consistent with force missing other projectiles. I also argued that DKs should be able to reflect meteor, pushing for that nerf to be reversed, and I stand by both of these assertions. As for stamina, of the magicka classes, nightblades tend to have the most sensitive stamina pools. Magplars and mDKs typically run snb with prismatic enchants and well rounded stats. With the higher stam pool and the snb passives, they could block meteors much more easily than nightblades. And sorcs have huge shields that allow them to absorb meteor's damage entirely, recover from the cc if needed, or block the meteor and then shield additional incoming damage instead of blocking or rolling. Sorc's kits are, I would argue, the most defensive of the magicka classes between mines, shields, atro, streak, lightning form resistances, a stun on hit, etc etc.

Mageblades rely on either cloak as their primary defensive mechanic (in the case of dual wield burst setups), outpressuring the opponent offensively (in the case of dual wield and staff sustain setups), and face tanking tons of damage (in the case of snb and staff sap-heal setups). Regardless, the mageblade will now have to take meteor damage to the face or to its stamina pool. This is a HUGE nerf to the class. I've explained this already...

We will adapt by building more durably, which I have already done. As I mentioned earlier, I'm currently running 29k health, a larger stamina pool, and a ton of self-heals in response to the meta shifting to high burst, more meteors, and zergballing.

As for the templar being all sensitive about RD being interrupted, my god dude. You're going to get cced by something every 6 seconds by a competent player anyway. At least with RD, you can apply a ton of pressure to your opponent's health pool and force him to act quickly or die...since he can't dodge any of the damage like with other executes. The thing with RD is that its range extends outside of gap closer range. If you are smart and RD from that far off, then there is very literally nothing that they can do if they are not running Crushing Shock, Venom Arrow, or Cloak.

In a distilled environment, there is a situation where RD has no counterplay, and that is my problem with the skill. It is a core tenet of game balance that decision making and counterplay must be present in all combat situations. My recommendation in this post is simply to reign it in to where there is counterplay, being gap closers.

maxjapank · May 2016

SneaK wrote: »

Should be able to dodge it. That change would have little to do with PvE and everything to do with PvP.

Absolutely not. We've been down this road before. You make it dodge able and no one will use it. There are plenty of counters to it. It really is a L2P issue, and most of those complaining here are ones who either use the Shuffle/dodge macro or want to 1vX and are upset that they lost to X.

Minno · May 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Should be able to dodge it. That change would have little to do with PvE and everything to do with PvP.

Absolutely not. We've been down this road before. You make it dodge able and no one will use it. There are plenty of counters to it. It really is a L2P issue, and most of those complaining here are ones who either use the Shuffle/dodge macro or want to 1vX and are upset that they lost to X.

Correction: trying to 1vx in pure DPS spec when that should be the tank's job if he is geared properly to do.

HoloYoitsu · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

You're going to have to do a much better job convincing me why RD is actually unbalanced, and that this isn't just another thread looking to have a counters/nuisances to someones build nerfed.

Scrub Zheg, Jebus Beam is unbalanced because it's a Templar skill and all Templar skills have to be specially designed to fit within the limits of your Templar House™.

I quoth from the Book of Wrobel:

Eric Wrobel ESO Live wrote:

I want to stand in these, and like this is, this is sort of like my house and if you come into my house it's gonna be bad for you.

Do you see Zheg? It shall only be bad for you if you come within the house, not 40 meters away.

Zheg · May 2016

Kena, if you're far enough away that you can't gap close (also, why are you not using cloak?), there is typically ample amounts of LoS opportunities. Think about it, you're complaining about how a melee build has to either struggle or build in counters to a ranged opponent. Duh? Every pvp game has had this exact scenario since the beginning. If you don't want to slot ranged interrupts or purges, slot strong heals and shields. Most of the time when I'm Jesus beamed it's at high health and a single heal let's me completely ignore them. Even if in low health a BoL is preferred before I hit purify. If you're jumping into groups solo and dying to Jesus beam, maybe rethink your engagement, or run with a healer. Jesus beam does jack to someone I'm tossing BoL to.

No one build should be able to counter everything and still do high dps. I know people want that for their builds, but that's terrible balance. If I run across a DK when I'm solo, I'm probably going to stalemate because the only offensive skills I have are heavy resto attack and Jesus beam in the face of wings. Funny how you don't see Templars asking for nerfs to wings every week, but you see tons of DKs asking for nerfs to Jesus beam eh? You can't even reliably use puncturing sweep on them because all they have to do is pop talons and move to your side.

This isn't a Templar trying to maintain an OP ability, on my healer when I have room for a dps ability I choose DF over RD. Ive never been hit by RD over the past month and thought, wow, it's way too strong and there was nothing I could do.

HoloYoitsu · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

This isn't a Templar trying to maintain an OP ability, on my healer when I have room for a dps ability I choose DF over RD. Ive never been hit by RD over the past month and thought, wow, it's way too strong and there was nothing I could do.

You choose the darkness over the light of our savior????

Joy_Division · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I run a 29k health mageblade with all impen and heavy self-heals.

The problem is not durability. The problem is that a templar can sit well outside of my range of reaction, push one button at me while I am at full health, and make it so that if I fall below 40% health, I die. In its current state, a Radiant held on a person at high health while they take fire from other players is practically a 40% max health debuff because if they reach 40% health, they get chunked by the execute crits without the ability to block or dodge the hits. RD is the only skill in the game that behaves this way.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I really want to ask: Do you suck or something? Are you incapable or reacting and performing actions with your character once you fall below 40% health?

But I've seen you play. You're a good player. You (and most semi-competent people with a pulse) don't just die. So why do you exaggerate and say that you do? You say it can't be blocked. YES. IT. CAN. And there's the dodge thing again, as if that's the only acceptable defense against all abilities in this game. Different abilities have different means of defense. I can cleanse your Jesus Beam but not your Concealed Weapon. It's OK, no need to complain. How is it that you, as a Mageblade, who can easily cleanse, cloak, and shield, somehow just dies when you get to 40% from an RD attack?

Gimme a break. This ability is not a death sentence for a halfway decent player, to say nothing of a player of your caliber.

And there's the point. What is a melee, cloakless class or a ranged character without a ranged interrupt to do?

And the sorc casting Wrath on you in an outnumbered situation is next to no pressure, even with their other incoming damage. RD applies greater damage and can't be dodged or blocked, and at just as far range.

Not curl up in the fetal position, accept death, and then ask ZoS to nerf skills for starters. My templar is built for jabs and doesn't have cloak. I will charge 90% of the targets I seek to kill if able. Let the Templars Jesus Beam me. I don't care. I don't send them disrespectful tells. I don't have a problem countering what they do any more than what the other classes throw at me.

And what do you mean ranged character without an interrupt? You must be referring to those people who made a conscious decision to willfully ignore the crushing shock and venom arrow morphs on the weapons they are using because they want to gloat by posting their FTC parses in chat. They thought it was such a good idea to have moar DPS so too bad. The same goes for those magicka types who chose to using two swords.

And you should fear that Fury spamming sorc. Unlike a templar's RD, that skill actually *will* kill you the instant you fall under 20% health if you do not cleanse it or have a large shield up. That Fury will hit you harder at 19% health than the Templar's RD since the sorc can actually weave attacks with it. Sorcs not put pressure on you? Stop. Watch some of German's videos and tell me with a straight face that sorcs are not good at generating offensive pressure. You will be cursed. They will have either a prox det active or an inevitable det ticking on you. A halfway decent one will streak you the moment you cloak. And your mage-blade will long run out of stamina trying to dodge crushing shock weaves and crystal frags long before the sorc will run out of magicka.

You are not a nub. Stop posting like you are one.

AfkNinja · May 2016

Do we really need a new thread on this every few days? Hasn't this been debated to death? FFS

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I would be completely ok with that as well.

What I'm not ok with is a low counterplay, easily applied execute that can hit you from outside gap closer range and which begins executing at half health.

By the logic of all the people talking here about how balanced RD is, the range of Impale should be raised to equal that of RD. Even if that were to happen, RD would still be the far better execute.

Not really, if only because the NB class is far more mobile and better at closing the gap. You're not comparing apples with apples here. I get where you're coming from, but the Templar class would need some form of innate Blur, and a gap closer that worked (ambush), or the 2 other in-class speed boosts that NB's get, or the cloak that NB's get, to really make use of that close-range execute. They're different animals. Its clear that the Devs want to make Templars a stand-your-ground-turret. Our tools are obviously being built in that direction. As an aside, the Nightblade also gets abilities with huge amounts of debuff stacking, that can be clipped in rapid succession, and we're not even talking about poisons yet. They just nerfed the self-purge of the Templar class in the DB update, thereby severely hampering Templar mitigation. They make up for it by finally giving the class some cc in the form of a gbpbaoe snare/hot/dot. It still doesn't change the fact that a Templar will need to spam-cast that skill twice to equal one NB debuff, and we're not even talking about clipping here. There's a reason I've been slowly finding myself gravitate more toward Nightblade. The Nightblade class just handles well, and sneaking about is quite enjoyable. Nightblades are just the swiss army knife of ESO. I knew this would happen with the class a long time ago (when people were complaining about how awful they are.) The base concept of NB is amazing it just needed some tweaks to help it out. What makes Nightblade so strong is that most of its abilities offer mitigation and damage simultaneously, often with debuffs or cc built in. This economy of motion makes NB's a very good class. At any regard I'm not denying RD is probably a better execute than Impale, but then again the NB toolkit has no losers. Its all good, and actually requires some decision making to decide what you want to put on the bar. The comparison to Mages Fury would be more appropriate, if it were not for the fact that a Sorcerer can shield and proc Crystal Frags. I'm not saying I like this rng dps Lotto that Sorcerer plays, but you can't deny the potency of a Sorcerer in the right setting.

And don't get me going about Eclipse - I've been annoyed with that skill ever since they added CC immunity to the game (which by the way destroyed the way CC worked for the Templar class, even to this very day).

Minno · May 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

Do we really need a new thread on this every few days? Hasn't this been debated to death? FFS

It's like politics, when really *** bills keep finding their way to Senate as revisions of the initial submission. It's the same bad bill with a new name but the same arguments.

It's a blatant call for nerfs so that people's builds can go back to dodge rolling as a main defense.