Why is the content so easy?
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ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
A VERY select few at that too.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~1 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Pangnirtung wrote: »Why make 2,000,000 Lamborghinis a year when only a few ppl can afford them?
That is why car makers produce vehicles that MOST ppl can afford.
Same goes for ZOS and content. It would be nice for those Lamborghini owners to get their vehicles updated regularly but financially it makes no sense.
Well I mean they could say we made a new difficult dungeon. It costs $500 but its sweet.
Hey, if they made it a 1-time purchase and they write a contract on to not nerf it ever, then I'd be willing to buy it.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »They only changed two 4 man dungeons. There is still MoL that noone has beaten except hodor. Have you thought about doing that?
What about all the other dungeons though, that have gotten the nerf hammer on them over and over and over again? Can't they raise the difficulty on them again? I mean, you want overland content the way it is, so you got to understand that the people that want a challenge wants to keep it that way in group content.
So you dont want to do MoL because why? Its too hard? Do you wish they would make it a little easier so you can complete it?
I do vMaw, but it does get boring to only have 1 thing to do in the game that is a challenge though. What if we turn things around, what if we made only the tutorial in coldharbour super easy and everything else challenging? Would you be happy then? As that's basically what you're telling us that wants a challenge to be happy with.
What I am saying is there is already a challenging group trial in the game. You havent finished it unless you are in hodor. So why instead of wanting the current content made harder dont you do the latest raid which is there for you. You say you want challenge but if that was true youd be trying to figure out how to finish MoL.
Actually, Hodor aren't the only ones, there are guilds on the NA server that have completed it too. And it's not about having vMaw, it's about how the entire rest of the game have been nerfed into oblivion so that most experienced people soloes pretty much every group dungeon, normal and veteran. And the existing group content used to be harder, but it was nerfed because of people that have nothing in there to do whining about things being too hard. Seriously, they need to buff group dungeons up to where they used to be, then we don't even need this discussion at all.
You have to realize, that you are not the target group anymore - it is like in real world with seniors, they are not the target group, they have done all, they have bought all, it is not much to expect from them anymore, they are irrelevant for the progress of the business - they have done their part, and now they are just ballast, left to cease - you cannot expect that a lot is done for this group, a bit maybe, but all other efforts go into making the game comfortable for those, who will stay for a long time and will need a long time to complete the content, but it does not have to be too hard for them, or they will leave. They are the target group now, and all effort goes into pleasing them.
That's kind of a harsh example,Lysette.Seniors arent irrelevant,left to cease,ballast. That's kind of cruel.There are a lot of seniors here that play and will continue to do so for a long time.Many of them,though the younger ones dont realize this.
The target group doesnt ask your age,it doesnt dismiss you if you are over a certain age.We all play,all ages,and our money is as important to ZOS as younger players.
Not being rude,but it's truth.
I was not talking about players of an old age, but of veteran players - and compared them to the seniors in real life. For a business they are irrelevant, if it is not a pharma business, a hospital or a funeral business. That is why they are not a target group and ads are directed at younger people. I did not want to be rude or harsh, it is reality which is that way. This can be denied of course, but it does not change the facts of reality.Edited by Lysette on May 4, 2016 3:55PM1 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~2 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pangnirtung wrote: »Why make 2,000,000 Lamborghinis a year when only a few ppl can afford them?
That is why car makers produce vehicles that MOST ppl can afford.
Same goes for ZOS and content. It would be nice for those Lamborghini owners to get their vehicles updated regularly but financially it makes no sense.
And why would you produce none of them when someone buys them?
We are not talking about making everything harder, we are talking about keeping the difficulty of three semi-hard dungeons where they are. There will be no endgame-4-player-content when the next DLC hits live.
This is just extremely disappointing...I also don't get, why most of the people in here are against content fo all kinds of players? What's wrong with easy, medium, hard and really hard 4-men content? It's ok for us to have only one or two hard and really hard dungeons (i call vWGT/vICP hard/realy hard here...in fact they aren't atm), but to have nothing is really bad.
I just wait for the day ZOS realizes they maybe need content in all difficulties. Then I'll say:
to you. Will be a great dayYou have to realize, that you are not the target group anymore
Noobplar2 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
Yeah, using facts, logic and reason for your arguments. That sure is crazy. They receive a TON of money so no, money is not only not an argument, it's also irrelevant and a cheap distraction from your side. And even on this irrelevant aspect you failed to refute anything of what I said. "Vet players" pay as much as anyone else. There is no differentiation to casual players and their spendings.
I see even on the forums I'm not getting any challenge.
And the source for your financial facts are what? Only ZOS knows the facts and they are the ones tailoring this game using their facts. I'm sure that there are Vet players who sub plus buy and spend crowns, but there are many who have stated on these forums that they "don't buy fluff". So we, here on this forum, have no factual information just opinions and conjecture. What we do know is that ZOS has stated that it is making these changes based on data (facts), not opinions and conjecture.
Feel free to have whatever opinions you like but don't throw opinions around as fact.
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.
The only thing is that your analogy doesn't exist. The fact is that people do ski red and black, they do game challenging, difficult, easy, immersive etc content.
And when you have a resort with no blacks and no reds you don't get many skiers. I ski as well as game.
And who ever heard of a resort deciding to turn all their black and red slopes into blue ones?
Resorts with only blue and greens tend to be the lower altitude, cheaper ones. Is that what we want? No heights to aspire too, nothing to dip the tips of our skis and boards onto that gives us a thrill, that tests our imagination, that makes us aspire to improve our technique and go into that shop and upgrade our gear.
There is always the need for speed, not all of us are happy with cruising a blue - all of the time.
Lets not be under any illusions we are talking about the removal of red slopes too in terms of open world content and 4 player dungeons in ESO. We shoudl not be in a situation where people are doing 4 man dungeons solo, which is happening right now.
My analogy does hit because its straight from ZOS mouth. They are adjusting slightly the difficulty due to the fact not very many people bother with it. They spend money on this stuff so people will use it. How do I justify making another hard instance when the one I already made gets little use? Its hard to get approval in a budget for something like that. So they lowered the difficulty to make it more accessible. I believe they knew this would not please everyone but it will please more than it displeases it seems.
Hold your horses. Where have ZOS ever said "They are adjusting slightly the difficulty due to the fact not very many people bother with it." ?? Thats a loaded sentence.
Can you quantify that.
What they say in patch notes is for WGT and ICP only - We adjusted the difficulty in both Normal and Veteran versions, which will result in an overall reduction in difficulty for both versions." And that's all they say.
Well, I guess he is referring to the transcript from the latest event - it will be uploaded soon, said ZOS. And there it was said, that they use data from actual gameplay and adjust difficulty of less completed quests and tasks so, that more people can do it. Their intention is to adjust it so, that a lot of people can do the content, not just a few.
Edit: Ah I see, they uploaded something, I guess this is it
minute 21 and following is where it is said.
In regard to this video. I think it is an incentive issue rather than a difficulty issue. It's not that people can't do it, it just isn't really worth doing to many of them. Players basically go "Hmmmm I can learn challenging content and then do it 300 times for the negligibly/arguably better scathing mage..... or I can just go spend 2 minutes crafting some Julianos or Twice-born."
What he is saying is they cannot justify making content that difficult if only a few players actually complete it. They want things to be more accessible. Its only two dungeons also that were the most difficult.
Right and I am saying that is incorrect. There just isn't much incentive to push through the dungeons. The drop rate is horrible. The gear is BOP. CoA sets are v14 and ICP/WGT sets are either worse or slightly better than easier to obtain alternatives.
You cant say that is incorrect lol. You dont work for ZOS. It isnt there isnt an incentive to do those TWO dungeons. Not all dungeons just those two. Making them slightly easier which is not nerfing them. They will still be hard according to rich lambert. Its minor changes you guys are making a big deal about.
Sure I can definitely opine that ZOS is wrong. It's not like they have never been wrong. When the DLC first launched scathing mage was not even in the same ballpark as a crafted set, so why would people bother? Fortunately, the set was recently improved, and due to that I have noticed more people running vICP.
What Rich said is not accurate. They are not slightly easier. The dungeons are complete easy mode and nearly soloable.
Hyperbole doesnt help the situation. They have the numbers in front of them they want to meet as far as people using those two dungeons. They said the numbers arent where they want them to be. So they did some adjusting to make it more accessible. I dont think if anyone can solo it there are very many. Meanwhile 1000s might actually be able to finish it now.
There is no hyperbole. The difficulty reduction goes well beyond "slightly." It is definely close to being solo able for the most part.
The numbers they spoke about in the video were related to the problem not the causes or the best solution. They said that the numbers show that fewer people than intended are completing the dungeons, which is the pronlem. The numbers do not show them why or the best way to solve it. Better Incentive would be a better solution IMO.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Nyx2✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Tried that in craglorn its deserted. So ya as you can see that isnt going to help retain customers. all it will do is drive more and more away. While your "hardcore" people arent buying things like cosmetics and differently skinned mounts. Most I would bet dont pay for a monthly sub either. So ya I mean what can they say? if anything they probably will make the trials more accessible next.Vets either have all already or are not interested into buying from the crown store - so there is not much to gain from them. And when there is not much to gain from a customer group, then there is not much to do for them either. It would be wasted money and resources. They rather do content for those, who do not have all yet, and want to see all of Tamriel, and will most likely subscribe and over time buy a whole lot from the crown store with their allotment of crowns and because those are not nearly enough for all the new stuff - because they have nothing yet - they will buy extra crowns on top of it. This is the target group - with vets they have made their money already, there is not much further to gain from them, unlike from new players.
Can we stop this opinionated gibberish, accusations and not make triple posts? "Hardcore people" have as much a purse as anyone else in the game and they aren't exempt from wanting fancy customizations, DLC, subs and other content. "Money" is also an extremely weak way of making an argument. Maybe something you should avoid.jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
Not the games fault. It was made for every level,not just level V16s,wasnt it?:)
Exactly. It was made for everyone, so v16s should have some content as well. If there isn't any, it's very much the game's fault(or you can say it's my fault for, well, playing the game, reaching v16 and completing all the 10 vet dungeons and 3/4 Trials we have o_o).
Well,just what would you suggest? Stop making content that lower levels can enjoy? Only new content for level V16 players? Well,without the Vet rank soon. Those kids and newbies wont be able to play your special content. ZOS wants to keep those players who have the world to conquor and explore.They arent worried about those who have hit the ceiling and want more. They can only do so much with a game.Go so far.Every game can only take you to a certain height. I've been level 85 in WoW and once you get there it's pretty same same.Nothing spectacular really. Just people running around showing off their rides,pets,and gear. People still play it just fine.They run a new character,..just like I did.Once they reach the top,they start over.Same as this game.Same as most games.The top is the top.No more than that.
For starters I'd suggest scaling the already existing content to where it can actually be fun or at least have meaningful rewards. (v)DSA, AA and HR are already there, can't be that hard to scale. They did scale all vet dungeons in one update after all.
I would also suggest adding new (vet) dungeons more often than once a year.
As it stands, last dungeons we had were with IC on 1st September. WGT and ICP. Okay, cool, whole 2 dungeons, fun mechanics, though nerfed time and again...then we had Wrothgar. Lots of solo questing, one solo(!!!) laggy Trial. Then TG. Some solo questing, one 12-man Trial(good thing really, but not exactly 4 man content). Then DB. Some solo questing. Scaling of one old Trial(which shouldn't even be part of a DLC, I just fail to see why all Trials and DSA are not scaled yet).
DB is gonna be when...start of June, give or take? So next DLC, where we MIGHT finally get some 4 man content, will be just about a year away from IC. Great job for giving everyone something to do imo /sarcasm
I'd also strictly advise against nerfing current content and instead for incentivizing people to learn it but seems ZOS is religiously against that.
The idea of adding new vet dungeons,or the equivalent,would be a great idea. Also,if they added a few challenging arenas and delves for groups only,that too would work.
I dont agree with nerfing,but I dont agree with raising the levels of difficulty for lower levels either.If things are too hard for new players,they wont be inspired,they'll get tired of trying and give up.Incentives arent making things so hard that you just cant do it unless you are an elite player.Incentives are things that make you want to play and learn.This isnt good for the game.It might please you,as one who wants hard core content,but it wont please that majority who just want good plain old fun.A distraction from RL. Which is what most players want. Not all are those gamers who are in it for the challenge.
It's one thing to be told if you learn to drive you can have a car.That's an incentive to learn. Its another being told that even if you learn to drive,you cant have a car until your 50.Who the hell wants to learn to drive with that age limit over your head.Same with level V16 content as you suppose it.
Well, they don't need to up it too much, just up it to reasonable levels instead of having it so the below average person can solo most group dungeons by themselves....
I think you have a distorted view on what an average person is - they are far below what you think they are capable of. A lot cannot even do the content, which is meant for their level, especially not as newbies.
The reason why many people can't do most group content though is because of there being literally nothing even remotely difficult at all and then hit a brick wall when they reach vet dungeons etc. I mean, my friend ran vCoA and one dps was using impulse as a single target spell for a boss. They don't know how to block, dodge etc as the game doesn't teach them that and there's no need for it in normal solo content as nothing can even get close to killing them in it.
There needs to be a higher difficulty in solo content, maybe not in the first few areas, but there needs to be something that can prepare them for group dungeons, not just expect the people that already know what to do to carry them through it.
I understand what you are trying with it - to make them care more about tactics - but you just should watch what newbies do, when they do the first longer quest in Daggerfall - save king Casimir - how many get killed there, because it is labeled for level 4 - a lot get killed there, this would have to be labeled level 7 or so for them, they struggle with it at level 4 and might leave, because they get the impression, I suck, this game is too hard for me.
Yes, I want to make the game help people learn how to play the game instead of letting the people that already know how to play teach people how to do the most basic of things, as that's something anyone that reaches the higher levels should already know about, but with things being so bad at explaining things they come into a vet dungeon, get one shot by things and do basically no damage because they just haven't gotten to learn how the game works.
Yes, overland things should be easy to start off with, but it should gradually increase little by little to ease people into it so that they don't hit a brick wall once they start trying vet dungeons.
In your opinion only. Like I said a LOT of people will never run a vet dungeon. What about them? Your whole premise is that everyone must learn to do vet dungeons. What if I dont give a flip about dungeons? Im just chopped liver even tho I pay the same $15 a month as you do? (You do pay right?)
The guild I am in runs nights where they take newbies and teach them the ropes. Its called taking things into our own hands and not depending on ZOS to do it all for us.
What...? If they don't care about dungeons then what does the difficulty matter in the first place? It's also funny how again you have to emphasize that you're paying sub as if this makes you somehow better than everyone else.
Everything else has already been said by me. But it seems actual arguments are too inconvenient to deal with.
Money is a weak argument?- For a profit business, which is funded by investors?- Are you crazy?- Money is the only argument.
Yeah, using facts, logic and reason for your arguments. That sure is crazy. They receive a TON of money so no, money is not only not an argument, it's also irrelevant and a cheap distraction from your side. And even on this irrelevant aspect you failed to refute anything of what I said. "Vet players" pay as much as anyone else. There is no differentiation to casual players and their spendings.
I see even on the forums I'm not getting any challenge.
You have spent money - but as you have all you need already, you will not spend as much as a new player in the future. That is the point of it - and why older players and older people in the real world are no longer the target group - they have done their part, not much to expect from them in the future, compared to the new and younger ones, who have nothing and need all.
Edit: what was in the past, is pretty irrelevant for a business, what counts is what revenue can be generated now and in future.
Hah. That's not even ESOs business model. It's all about BUY NOW and then it's gone. What purpose serve new players to this kind of marketing? Pretty much exactly as much as "old" players. Subs matter even less for your argument because that's timeless.
So what was this thread about again? Dungeon balance or MMO marketing strategies? Oh yeah, it was about dungeon balance.Edited by Nyx2 on May 4, 2016 3:59PM2 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
We were commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo. Only a very select 'few' can complete them solo.Edited by ADarklore on May 4, 2016 4:00PMCP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
Big difference been explained to you many times now. I wonder if you are simply being obtuse at this point.3 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
If you haven't figured out, he was commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo.
Just saying, as vCoA was supposed to be a 4-man dungeon if I'm not completely wrong. And he keeps going on about that people can't complete the dungeons at all. Which is why I'm saying if 4 people can't complete content that one person can solo by himself then those 4 people need to start looking over their build, wouldn't you agree?R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Tried that in craglorn its deserted. So ya as you can see that isnt going to help retain customers. all it will do is drive more and more away. While your "hardcore" people arent buying things like cosmetics and differently skinned mounts. Most I would bet dont pay for a monthly sub either. So ya I mean what can they say? if anything they probably will make the trials more accessible next.Vets either have all already or are not interested into buying from the crown store - so there is not much to gain from them. And when there is not much to gain from a customer group, then there is not much to do for them either. It would be wasted money and resources. They rather do content for those, who do not have all yet, and want to see all of Tamriel, and will most likely subscribe and over time buy a whole lot from the crown store with their allotment of crowns and because those are not nearly enough for all the new stuff - because they have nothing yet - they will buy extra crowns on top of it. This is the target group - with vets they have made their money already, there is not much further to gain from them, unlike from new players.
Can we stop this opinionated gibberish, accusations and not make triple posts? "Hardcore people" have as much a purse as anyone else in the game and they aren't exempt from wanting fancy customizations, DLC, subs and other content. "Money" is also an extremely weak way of making an argument. Maybe something you should avoid.jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
Not the games fault. It was made for every level,not just level V16s,wasnt it?:)
Exactly. It was made for everyone, so v16s should have some content as well. If there isn't any, it's very much the game's fault(or you can say it's my fault for, well, playing the game, reaching v16 and completing all the 10 vet dungeons and 3/4 Trials we have o_o).
Well,just what would you suggest? Stop making content that lower levels can enjoy? Only new content for level V16 players? Well,without the Vet rank soon. Those kids and newbies wont be able to play your special content. ZOS wants to keep those players who have the world to conquor and explore.They arent worried about those who have hit the ceiling and want more. They can only do so much with a game.Go so far.Every game can only take you to a certain height. I've been level 85 in WoW and once you get there it's pretty same same.Nothing spectacular really. Just people running around showing off their rides,pets,and gear. People still play it just fine.They run a new character,..just like I did.Once they reach the top,they start over.Same as this game.Same as most games.The top is the top.No more than that.
For starters I'd suggest scaling the already existing content to where it can actually be fun or at least have meaningful rewards. (v)DSA, AA and HR are already there, can't be that hard to scale. They did scale all vet dungeons in one update after all.
I would also suggest adding new (vet) dungeons more often than once a year.
As it stands, last dungeons we had were with IC on 1st September. WGT and ICP. Okay, cool, whole 2 dungeons, fun mechanics, though nerfed time and again...then we had Wrothgar. Lots of solo questing, one solo(!!!) laggy Trial. Then TG. Some solo questing, one 12-man Trial(good thing really, but not exactly 4 man content). Then DB. Some solo questing. Scaling of one old Trial(which shouldn't even be part of a DLC, I just fail to see why all Trials and DSA are not scaled yet).
DB is gonna be when...start of June, give or take? So next DLC, where we MIGHT finally get some 4 man content, will be just about a year away from IC. Great job for giving everyone something to do imo /sarcasm
I'd also strictly advise against nerfing current content and instead for incentivizing people to learn it but seems ZOS is religiously against that.
The idea of adding new vet dungeons,or the equivalent,would be a great idea. Also,if they added a few challenging arenas and delves for groups only,that too would work.
I dont agree with nerfing,but I dont agree with raising the levels of difficulty for lower levels either.If things are too hard for new players,they wont be inspired,they'll get tired of trying and give up.Incentives arent making things so hard that you just cant do it unless you are an elite player.Incentives are things that make you want to play and learn.This isnt good for the game.It might please you,as one who wants hard core content,but it wont please that majority who just want good plain old fun.A distraction from RL. Which is what most players want. Not all are those gamers who are in it for the challenge.
It's one thing to be told if you learn to drive you can have a car.That's an incentive to learn. Its another being told that even if you learn to drive,you cant have a car until your 50.Who the hell wants to learn to drive with that age limit over your head.Same with level V16 content as you suppose it.
Well, they don't need to up it too much, just up it to reasonable levels instead of having it so the below average person can solo most group dungeons by themselves....
I think you have a distorted view on what an average person is - they are far below what you think they are capable of. A lot cannot even do the content, which is meant for their level, especially not as newbies.
The reason why many people can't do most group content though is because of there being literally nothing even remotely difficult at all and then hit a brick wall when they reach vet dungeons etc. I mean, my friend ran vCoA and one dps was using impulse as a single target spell for a boss. They don't know how to block, dodge etc as the game doesn't teach them that and there's no need for it in normal solo content as nothing can even get close to killing them in it.
There needs to be a higher difficulty in solo content, maybe not in the first few areas, but there needs to be something that can prepare them for group dungeons, not just expect the people that already know what to do to carry them through it.
I understand what you are trying with it - to make them care more about tactics - but you just should watch what newbies do, when they do the first longer quest in Daggerfall - save king Casimir - how many get killed there, because it is labeled for level 4 - a lot get killed there, this would have to be labeled level 7 or so for them, they struggle with it at level 4 and might leave, because they get the impression, I suck, this game is too hard for me.
Yes, I want to make the game help people learn how to play the game instead of letting the people that already know how to play teach people how to do the most basic of things, as that's something anyone that reaches the higher levels should already know about, but with things being so bad at explaining things they come into a vet dungeon, get one shot by things and do basically no damage because they just haven't gotten to learn how the game works.
Yes, overland things should be easy to start off with, but it should gradually increase little by little to ease people into it so that they don't hit a brick wall once they start trying vet dungeons.
In your opinion only. Like I said a LOT of people will never run a vet dungeon. What about them? Your whole premise is that everyone must learn to do vet dungeons. What if I dont give a flip about dungeons? Im just chopped liver even tho I pay the same $15 a month as you do? (You do pay right?)
The guild I am in runs nights where they take newbies and teach them the ropes. Its called taking things into our own hands and not depending on ZOS to do it all for us.
What...? If they don't care about dungeons then what does the difficulty matter in the first place? It's also funny how again you have to emphasize that you're paying sub as if this makes you somehow better than everyone else.
Everything else has already been said by me. But it seems actual arguments are too inconvenient to deal with.
Money is a weak argument?- For a profit business, which is funded by investors?- Are you crazy?- Money is the only argument.
Yeah, using facts, logic and reason for your arguments. That sure is crazy. They receive a TON of money so no, money is not only not an argument, it's also irrelevant and a cheap distraction from your side. And even on this irrelevant aspect you failed to refute anything of what I said. "Vet players" pay as much as anyone else. There is no differentiation to casual players and their spendings.
I see even on the forums I'm not getting any challenge.
You have spent money - but as you have all you need already, you will not spend as much as a new player in the future. That is the point of it - and why older players and older people in the real world are no longer the target group - they have done their part, not much to expect from them in the future, compared to the new and younger ones, who have nothing and need all.
Edit: what was in the past, is pretty irrelevant for a business, what counts is what revenue can be generated now and in future.
Hah. That's not even ESOs business model. It's all about BUY NOW and then it's gone. What purpose serve new players to this kind of marketing? Pretty much exactly as much as "old" players. Subs matter even less for your argument because that's timeless.
So what was this thread about again? Dungeon balance or MMO marketing strategies? Oh yeah, it was about dungeon balance.
Its about why they are making two dungeons easier. Bottom line is its money. Not enough people are using these to warrant the expense creating them. So they made them more accessible.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pangnirtung wrote: »Why make 2,000,000 Lamborghinis a year when only a few ppl can afford them?
That is why car makers produce vehicles that MOST ppl can afford.
Same goes for ZOS and content. It would be nice for those Lamborghini owners to get their vehicles updated regularly but financially it makes no sense.
And why would you produce none of them when someone buys them?
We are not talking about making everything harder, we are talking about keeping the difficulty of three semi-hard dungeons where they are. There will be no endgame-4-player-content when the next DLC hits live.
This is just extremely disappointing...I also don't get, why most of the people in here are against content fo all kinds of players? What's wrong with easy, medium, hard and really hard 4-men content? It's ok for us to have only one or two hard and really hard dungeons (i call vWGT/vICP hard/realy hard here...in fact they aren't atm), but to have nothing is really bad.
I just wait for the day ZOS realizes they maybe need content in all difficulties. Then I'll say:
to you. Will be a great dayYou have to realize, that you are not the target group anymore
I play very slow paced, I will not get any near to do those kind of stuff in years nor would I be interested in it. I am here to see Tamriel in all it's glory, more and more regions of Tamriel - Tamriel unlimited - what is the name of the game. I will always be the target group, because I am not consuming the content in a rush. I am one of those for whom they make this game, because we are so slow, that we will need years to play through just part of the content. and we will buy most of the crown store content in those years. The ideal costumer.1 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
Big difference been explained to you many times now. I wonder if you are simply being obtuse at this point.
And we've explained to you why there needs to be both hard and easy content, not just content ranging from faceroll-easy. I'm just wondering if you're dense at this point or just trolling.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
We were commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo. Only a very select 'few' can complete them solo.
The thing he wants to point out is the following:
If 4 people can't do, what one person can do solo, not the content has to be nerfed. The group of 4 has to improve.Noobplar0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
Big difference been explained to you many times now. I wonder if you are simply being obtuse at this point.
And we've explained to you why there needs to be both hard and easy content, not just content ranging from faceroll-easy. I'm just wondering if you're dense at this point or just trolling.
You said that a couple people can solo vet dungeons. I said its not really a big deal there is always people who are extremely talented at playing the game. So what tho? I dont get the point. I know you think stuff is too easy but when given more challenging options like MoL for example you balk.
Fact is more people need to buy IC. It wasnt the money maker they had hoped. They hope by making these two dungeons a little easier and reducing the amount of "trash" mobs on the landscape more people might want to buy it. With district capture and those changes to the PVE side I might actually check it out now.3 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
Big difference been explained to you many times now. I wonder if you are simply being obtuse at this point.
And we've explained to you why there needs to be both hard and easy content, not just content ranging from faceroll-easy. I'm just wondering if you're dense at this point or just trolling.
You said that a couple people can solo vet dungeons. I said its not really a big deal there is always people who are extremely talented at playing the game. So what tho? I dont get the point. I know you think stuff is too easy but when given more challenging options like MoL for example you balk.
Fact is more people need to buy IC. It wasnt the money maker they had hoped. They hope by making these two dungeons a little easier and reducing the amount of "trash" mobs on the landscape more people might want to buy it. With district capture and those changes to the PVE side I might actually check it out now.
Oh, I'm working on vMaw, but sometimes it would be nice to have something else than faceroll content in the game than that one trial. And IC itself is just getting a blanket nerf next patch too, pretty much only content that was decent left in overworld. But yeah, noobs that can't do anything if they're not getting it spoon fed to them ftw and all that..........R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
If you haven't figured out, he was commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo.
Just saying, as vCoA was supposed to be a 4-man dungeon if I'm not completely wrong. And he keeps going on about that people can't complete the dungeons at all. Which is why I'm saying if 4 people can't complete content that one person can solo by himself then those 4 people need to start looking over their build, wouldn't you agree?
You are assuming that all players are equal with equal skill, but they are not. So basing a dungeon level according to the uber-skilled player certainly diminishes the desire to continue playing for a lot of less skilled players. Let's not forget there are handi-capped players playing this game who have a reason why they cannot perform to ultra-skilled levels... should they be excluded from content as well? I've always hated the 'git-gud' argument because most players don't want to make a game a 'job', most play to have fun. Yet the extreme minority of min/maxers and ultra-competitive players want to restrict access to content because they are bored otherwise... but I have a feeling they will always be bored. So, once they move on to something harder, that leaves content that a majority cannot finish just sitting there going un-played because of the difficulty level. So ZOS in their wisdom decides that, hey, hardly anyone is running these anymore except for a select few, how about we see if decreasing the difficulty brings more players to these dungeons.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Tried that in craglorn its deserted. So ya as you can see that isnt going to help retain customers. all it will do is drive more and more away. While your "hardcore" people arent buying things like cosmetics and differently skinned mounts. Most I would bet dont pay for a monthly sub either. So ya I mean what can they say? if anything they probably will make the trials more accessible next.Vets either have all already or are not interested into buying from the crown store - so there is not much to gain from them. And when there is not much to gain from a customer group, then there is not much to do for them either. It would be wasted money and resources. They rather do content for those, who do not have all yet, and want to see all of Tamriel, and will most likely subscribe and over time buy a whole lot from the crown store with their allotment of crowns and because those are not nearly enough for all the new stuff - because they have nothing yet - they will buy extra crowns on top of it. This is the target group - with vets they have made their money already, there is not much further to gain from them, unlike from new players.
Can we stop this opinionated gibberish, accusations and not make triple posts? "Hardcore people" have as much a purse as anyone else in the game and they aren't exempt from wanting fancy customizations, DLC, subs and other content. "Money" is also an extremely weak way of making an argument. Maybe something you should avoid.jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »
Not the games fault. It was made for every level,not just level V16s,wasnt it?:)
Exactly. It was made for everyone, so v16s should have some content as well. If there isn't any, it's very much the game's fault(or you can say it's my fault for, well, playing the game, reaching v16 and completing all the 10 vet dungeons and 3/4 Trials we have o_o).
Well,just what would you suggest? Stop making content that lower levels can enjoy? Only new content for level V16 players? Well,without the Vet rank soon. Those kids and newbies wont be able to play your special content. ZOS wants to keep those players who have the world to conquor and explore.They arent worried about those who have hit the ceiling and want more. They can only do so much with a game.Go so far.Every game can only take you to a certain height. I've been level 85 in WoW and once you get there it's pretty same same.Nothing spectacular really. Just people running around showing off their rides,pets,and gear. People still play it just fine.They run a new character,..just like I did.Once they reach the top,they start over.Same as this game.Same as most games.The top is the top.No more than that.
For starters I'd suggest scaling the already existing content to where it can actually be fun or at least have meaningful rewards. (v)DSA, AA and HR are already there, can't be that hard to scale. They did scale all vet dungeons in one update after all.
I would also suggest adding new (vet) dungeons more often than once a year.
As it stands, last dungeons we had were with IC on 1st September. WGT and ICP. Okay, cool, whole 2 dungeons, fun mechanics, though nerfed time and again...then we had Wrothgar. Lots of solo questing, one solo(!!!) laggy Trial. Then TG. Some solo questing, one 12-man Trial(good thing really, but not exactly 4 man content). Then DB. Some solo questing. Scaling of one old Trial(which shouldn't even be part of a DLC, I just fail to see why all Trials and DSA are not scaled yet).
DB is gonna be when...start of June, give or take? So next DLC, where we MIGHT finally get some 4 man content, will be just about a year away from IC. Great job for giving everyone something to do imo /sarcasm
I'd also strictly advise against nerfing current content and instead for incentivizing people to learn it but seems ZOS is religiously against that.
The idea of adding new vet dungeons,or the equivalent,would be a great idea. Also,if they added a few challenging arenas and delves for groups only,that too would work.
I dont agree with nerfing,but I dont agree with raising the levels of difficulty for lower levels either.If things are too hard for new players,they wont be inspired,they'll get tired of trying and give up.Incentives arent making things so hard that you just cant do it unless you are an elite player.Incentives are things that make you want to play and learn.This isnt good for the game.It might please you,as one who wants hard core content,but it wont please that majority who just want good plain old fun.A distraction from RL. Which is what most players want. Not all are those gamers who are in it for the challenge.
It's one thing to be told if you learn to drive you can have a car.That's an incentive to learn. Its another being told that even if you learn to drive,you cant have a car until your 50.Who the hell wants to learn to drive with that age limit over your head.Same with level V16 content as you suppose it.
Well, they don't need to up it too much, just up it to reasonable levels instead of having it so the below average person can solo most group dungeons by themselves....
I think you have a distorted view on what an average person is - they are far below what you think they are capable of. A lot cannot even do the content, which is meant for their level, especially not as newbies.
The reason why many people can't do most group content though is because of there being literally nothing even remotely difficult at all and then hit a brick wall when they reach vet dungeons etc. I mean, my friend ran vCoA and one dps was using impulse as a single target spell for a boss. They don't know how to block, dodge etc as the game doesn't teach them that and there's no need for it in normal solo content as nothing can even get close to killing them in it.
There needs to be a higher difficulty in solo content, maybe not in the first few areas, but there needs to be something that can prepare them for group dungeons, not just expect the people that already know what to do to carry them through it.
I understand what you are trying with it - to make them care more about tactics - but you just should watch what newbies do, when they do the first longer quest in Daggerfall - save king Casimir - how many get killed there, because it is labeled for level 4 - a lot get killed there, this would have to be labeled level 7 or so for them, they struggle with it at level 4 and might leave, because they get the impression, I suck, this game is too hard for me.
Yes, I want to make the game help people learn how to play the game instead of letting the people that already know how to play teach people how to do the most basic of things, as that's something anyone that reaches the higher levels should already know about, but with things being so bad at explaining things they come into a vet dungeon, get one shot by things and do basically no damage because they just haven't gotten to learn how the game works.
Yes, overland things should be easy to start off with, but it should gradually increase little by little to ease people into it so that they don't hit a brick wall once they start trying vet dungeons.
In your opinion only. Like I said a LOT of people will never run a vet dungeon. What about them? Your whole premise is that everyone must learn to do vet dungeons. What if I dont give a flip about dungeons? Im just chopped liver even tho I pay the same $15 a month as you do? (You do pay right?)
The guild I am in runs nights where they take newbies and teach them the ropes. Its called taking things into our own hands and not depending on ZOS to do it all for us.
What...? If they don't care about dungeons then what does the difficulty matter in the first place? It's also funny how again you have to emphasize that you're paying sub as if this makes you somehow better than everyone else.
Everything else has already been said by me. But it seems actual arguments are too inconvenient to deal with.
Money is a weak argument?- For a profit business, which is funded by investors?- Are you crazy?- Money is the only argument.
Yeah, using facts, logic and reason for your arguments. That sure is crazy. They receive a TON of money so no, money is not only not an argument, it's also irrelevant and a cheap distraction from your side. And even on this irrelevant aspect you failed to refute anything of what I said. "Vet players" pay as much as anyone else. There is no differentiation to casual players and their spendings.
I see even on the forums I'm not getting any challenge.
You have spent money - but as you have all you need already, you will not spend as much as a new player in the future. That is the point of it - and why older players and older people in the real world are no longer the target group - they have done their part, not much to expect from them in the future, compared to the new and younger ones, who have nothing and need all.
Edit: what was in the past, is pretty irrelevant for a business, what counts is what revenue can be generated now and in future.
Hah. That's not even ESOs business model. It's all about BUY NOW and then it's gone. What purpose serve new players to this kind of marketing? Pretty much exactly as much as "old" players. Subs matter even less for your argument because that's timeless.
So what was this thread about again? Dungeon balance or MMO marketing strategies? Oh yeah, it was about dungeon balance.
You seem to be unable to see the connection between dungeon balance and revenue of the business - so be it.1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
Noobplar0 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
If you haven't figured out, he was commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo.
Just saying, as vCoA was supposed to be a 4-man dungeon if I'm not completely wrong. And he keeps going on about that people can't complete the dungeons at all. Which is why I'm saying if 4 people can't complete content that one person can solo by himself then those 4 people need to start looking over their build, wouldn't you agree?
You are assuming that all players are equal with equal skill, but they are not. So basing a dungeon level according to the uber-skilled player certainly diminishes the desire to continue playing for a lot of less skilled players. Let's not forget there are handi-capped players playing this game who have a reason why they cannot perform to ultra-skilled levels... should they be excluded from content as well? I've always hated the 'git-gud' argument because most players don't want to make a game a 'job', most play to have fun. Yet the extreme minority of min/maxers and ultra-competitive players want to restrict access to content because they are bored otherwise... but I have a feeling they will always be bored. So, once they move on to something harder, that leaves content that a majority cannot finish just sitting there going un-played because of the difficulty level. So ZOS in their wisdom decides that, hey, hardly anyone is running these anymore except for a select few, how about we see if decreasing the difficulty brings more players to these dungeons.
The problem is that people just don't want to put any kind of effort in whatsoever into their builds. They are people that got the normal dungeons to do, they are the easy ones, or they can scale the difficulty in the dungeons by taking 3 v16's and a v1 and make the v1 leader and then leave v16 content hard. But no, let's just ruin it for a lot of people to please the people that're too lazy to do anything themselves and need zenimax to just about kill everything for them.
Also, calling ZoS wise is kind of a joke, seeing what they're doing to this once great game.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on May 4, 2016 4:16PMR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
If you haven't figured out, he was commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo.
Just saying, as vCoA was supposed to be a 4-man dungeon if I'm not completely wrong. And he keeps going on about that people can't complete the dungeons at all. Which is why I'm saying if 4 people can't complete content that one person can solo by himself then those 4 people need to start looking over their build, wouldn't you agree?
You are assuming that all players are equal with equal skill, but they are not. So basing a dungeon level according to the uber-skilled player certainly diminishes the desire to continue playing for a lot of less skilled players. Let's not forget there are handi-capped players playing this game who have a reason why they cannot perform to ultra-skilled levels... should they be excluded from content as well? I've always hated the 'git-gud' argument because most players don't want to make a game a 'job', most play to have fun. Yet the extreme minority of min/maxers and ultra-competitive players want to restrict access to content because they are bored otherwise... but I have a feeling they will always be bored. So, once they move on to something harder, that leaves content that a majority cannot finish just sitting there going un-played because of the difficulty level. So ZOS in their wisdom decides that, hey, hardly anyone is running these anymore except for a select few, how about we see if decreasing the difficulty brings more players to these dungeons.
Two dungeons in IC which require either a purchase or a plus membership to access also. So they spent all this cash on developing IC and its been basically a disaster. So they are looking at ways to make it more profitable. How anyone could have this bother them I have no idea. Its healthy for the game as a whole and gives people the "sheep" they wanted. Not to mention actual pvp objectives which it lacked before.
Plus just as a creator you want people to like your stuff. You want people to play it and use it. Get enjoyment from it. Thats why they adjusted down slightly on these two dungeons. Rich said at PAX it was only slight changes and nothing super drastic. I would bet alot complaining about the changes havent even tried it yet on PTS.3 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
Because they can't be bothered to actually do anything except being completely braindead zombies that can't figure anything out for themselves and need to be told what to do every single step of the way and it needs to not require them to use more than one button as otherwise they need to work too much.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on May 4, 2016 4:21PMR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
It is not us, requesting that - just to say this. It is ZOS, who want to maximize their return on investments. And they do that by looking at if their investment in content is paying off or not. It is not paying off, if too less people are using the content and it would be wasted resources. So they adjust the difficulty to attract more people to use their content. Using content keeps them in game and make them pay more over time - this is the connection to business with it.Edited by Lysette on May 4, 2016 4:18PM2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
Because they can't be bothered to actually do anything except being completely braindead zombies that can't figure anything out for themselves and need to be told what to do every single step of the way and it needs to not require them to use more than button as otherwise they need to work too much.
You are just using buttons as well - - it is not as if you would be a super hero, you have just learnt to press these buttons faster and in the correct order. 2 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
Because they can't be bothered to actually do anything except being completely braindead zombies that can't figure anything out for themselves and need to be told what to do every single step of the way and it needs to not require them to use more than button as otherwise they need to work too much.
You are just using buttons as well - - it is not as if you would be a super hero, you have just learnt to press these buttons faster and in the correct order.
I meant one button, but yeah, it's only buttons, and people can't even figure out how to press 5 buttons and to do 10k dps which isn't hard at all as long as you just use 3-4 buttons and occationally block, dodgeroll etc.
If hundreds or thousands of people have figured that out then it shouldn't be too hard for people to learn what you can teach a monkey.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on May 4, 2016 4:25PMR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
It is not us, requesting that - just to say this. It is ZOS, who want to maximize their return on investments. And they do that by looking at if their investment in content is paying off or not. It is not paying off, if too less people are using the content and it would be wasted resources. So they adjust the difficulty to attract more people to use their content. Using content keeps them in game and make them pay more over time - this is the connection to business with it.
You didn't read their statement completely. They looked at the numbers AFTER they read the complaints about difficulty on the forums.cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »why do some casuals always think they have to able to faceroll hardmodes by spamming one button and without knowing the games core mechanics...
Because they can't be bothered to actually do anything except being completely braindead zombies that can't figure anything out for themselves and need to be told what to do every single step of the way and it needs to not require them to use more than button as otherwise they need to work too much.
You are just using buttons as well - - it is not as if you would be a super hero, you have just learnt to press these buttons faster and in the correct order.
So why does not everyone do it like he does? it's really not that hard.Noobplar0 -
Nyx2✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Again more hyperbole. The rest of the hasnt been "nerfed into oblivion". People leaving feedback also are not considered "whining". They are giving their opinions just like you are leaving your feedback. I dont think belittling people is going to make your argument stronger.
When people are soloing the vet dungeons scaled to v16, then I'd say it's super easy, yes. I can find you links to the videos if you want.
So a few people can do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can do things like that. Doesnt mean anything.
So a few people can't do that? Big deal. Always a few people who can't do content like that. Doesnt mean anything.
His point was that a MAJORITY of players cannot do it, only a 'few' can. There's a BIG difference.
If 4 people can't do content that 1 person can solo, they need to seriously look over their build. They can't go everywhere and expect to kill a boss while spamming AoE's the entire time and then whine when they can't. If you're one of them, there's plenty of guides and builds out there that can give you advice on how to get halfway decent.
If you haven't figured out, he was commenting on you saying that people can do these solo... he commented that only a few can do them solo, then you came back apparently talking about groups again... when we were still discussing players completing them solo.
Just saying, as vCoA was supposed to be a 4-man dungeon if I'm not completely wrong. And he keeps going on about that people can't complete the dungeons at all. Which is why I'm saying if 4 people can't complete content that one person can solo by himself then those 4 people need to start looking over their build, wouldn't you agree?
I've always hated the 'git-gud' argument because most players don't want to make a game a 'job', most play to have fun. Yet the extreme minority of min/maxers and ultra-competitive players want to restrict access to content because they are bored otherwise... but I have a feeling they will always be bored. So, once they move on to something harder
If someone refuses to learn simple things like blocking or dodge rolling it has nothing to do with "git gud". They don't even play the game if they're ignorant of it's most basic mechanics. Until I played spindleclutch with one friend all these things have been completely obsolete and pointless. It was just walk around tamriel, peng, peng, all dead. A big story build up to an epic boss battle that is over in just 15 seconds. That's utter garbage.
But of course everything that isn't your opinion is the "extreme minority". And what kinda logic is that anyway? "Sorry, but you're too good, we just don't have content for you. You can play our content but of course there is no way you can ever die or fail so best don't play our game and go to dark souls or whatever you freaks play." If anyone is excluding people it's you.Edited by Nyx2 on May 4, 2016 4:27PM1