Veteran Maelstrom Arena Weapons in DB

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

Looks like there are still no changes regarding these issues in 2.4.1

f047ys3v3n · May 2016

rokrdt05 wrote: »

Darlon wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Darlon wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Dunkmeister wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

But idk why you guys are getting worked up about the weapons. DB will make these weapons useless with the buff to crafted enchantments. 348 weapon/spell power with set bonuses vs 198 on a Maelstrom Weapon with a sub par special enchant.

The only time they will be useful is when you want to run a poison instead of an enchant.

I don't think sufficient testing has been done to confirm this will be better yet. Enchants are proc'd and not permanent, so they don't give the buff 100% of the time.

I'm not on PTS so I can't test it, but I was under the impression enchants had a 4 second cool down? Or did that get changed in a patch.

But with major Sorc/brutality going you're talking about 420 versus 240, so it would have to be extremely close to a half duration cool down in order for it to be beaten by a Maelstrom Weapon.

And that's not considering that they can be used as set pieces as well. Something tells me the new enchants beat the Maelstrom weapons in a vast majority of cases.

rokrdt05 wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Dunkmeister wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

But idk why you guys are getting worked up about the weapons. DB will make these weapons useless with the buff to crafted enchantments. 348 weapon/spell power with set bonuses vs 198 on a Maelstrom Weapon with a sub par special enchant.

The only time they will be useful is when you want to run a poison instead of an enchant.

I don't think sufficient testing has been done to confirm this will be better yet. Enchants are proc'd and not permanent, so they don't give the buff 100% of the time.

I'm not on PTS so I can't test it, but I was under the impression enchants had a 4 second cool down? Or did that get changed in a patch.

But with major Sorc/brutality going you're talking about 420 versus 240, so it would have to be extremely close to a half duration cool down in order for it to be beaten by a Maelstrom Weapon.

And that's not considering that they can be used as set pieces as well. Something tells me the new enchants beat the Maelstrom weapons in a vast majority of cases.

I think many people are over speculating the value of the "enchants" so to speak. Without concrete testing and theorycrafting it's all just that... speculation.

I'd be hard pressed to find that they will out dps certain maelstrom enchants like the destroy staves which does add quite a bit of dps. I'd be interested to see what some of the math inclined theorycrafters such as @Asayre or @hedna123b14_ESO would say regarding the new DB changes coming.

The internal cooldown on weapon enchants was 5 seconds I thought, but I am not 100% on this. But for the sake of the argument let's assume that you have 0 downtime on it. A maelstrom staff gives 189 spell damage. That's 159 spell damage less than a crafted enchant. Even with sorcs buffs that doesn't amount to more than around 215 spell damage overall. The buff to medium weaves from the maelstrom destro amounts to around 30-45% increase to weave damage. This results in around 4-6% increase in overall dps. I can guarantee that 215 spell damage will not amount to even half that amount.

Currently on the pts, if you swap out the enchant on the maelstrom staves (and probably also other mealstrom weapons) the 189 spell damage bonus stays intact while the rest of the enchant is replaced.

I didn't do any thorough damage tests, but according to the displayed spell damage values this is currently the case.
I used 2 Maelstrom staves (both sharpened) and 1 torugs pact staff (also sharpened, no 2 set bonus). On 1 of the mealstrom staves I replaced the enchant with a weapon damage enchant. When I compared the spell damage values in the character sheet they stayed identical. With the torug's pact staff (no 2 set bonus) it dropped as expected.

Ooh. So you're saying that if I re-enchant my Maelstrom tank swords (full heavy attack 5 seconds after Low Slash; LOL) with something actually useful like Absorb Stamina, I can still keep the max-health slot bonus?!

Yes, that's what's happening with a fire staff at least (+189 spell damage bonus). It doesn't show it on the weapon tooltip, but it is still there on the character sheet..
I haven't actually tried with the swords, but it should be easily visible if that's the case..

Not sure if this is intended, however, they did state that for maelstrom and master weapons the stat bonus would stay if you applied a poison to that weapon. Seeing that the poison 'replaces' the enchant when you apply it, I think it has something to do with this and it works similarly when re-enchanting

*Edit: as said earlier, I didn't do any real/thorough damage tests to confirm this, I went solely from the spell damage value on the character sheet

Considering poisons are only to mask the current enchant, more likely than not this is a bug if it is still giving you the spell damage bonus without the appropriate enchant being on it. I would bug report it.

The spell damage part of the enchant has always worked even when the weapon need recharged. I suspect that it is not really part of the enchant but, in fact, simply a staff that has 189 more spell damage than most. That is fine, as it should be probably. The tool tip is just misleading about it. Remember, all tool tips in ZOS are wrong.

Artis · May 2016

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I agree to an extent... I'm all for rarity and hard to obtain but where do you drawn the line?

I have been fortunate enough to get several of the Maelstrom staves I want, but I know friends of mine who have run it 10x more than I have (and I've done this hundreds of times) and still have not being able to get their desired weapon. The complaint most people have is mostly not if a weapon will drop (because if they are on weekly they get one), it's what weapon will drop. The RNG in this game is horrendous. I made an example earlier this week and I'll give you another... I did vMA 2x this week... know what I got for my rewards in mail? 2 Precise Maelstrom Bows. You can't tell me that is complete garbage. The week prior it was 3 Precise Maelstrom 1H Axes. The staggering amount of stamina weapons I have is insane. The drops all seem to favor it (for me at least). So while I am for rarity, it should not be so rare as to never seeing it after "x" amount of runs.

If they implemented some sort of token system, or made much needed adjustments to their RNG system a lot of people will be happier. At least with a token system for example, you can "work towards" getting the weapon you want via "x" amount of runs or be lucky enough to get it prior. People don't want to do the same content over and over and feel they are getting ripped off.

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me. Where do you draw the line? It is already not rare. I assume you guys draw the line where it is guaranteed that you personally can get it, right?

I agree that RNG system can be frustrating. I agree that token system would help any player in particular to get weapons that they want (didn't help much in wgt and icp though). However I am asking you again. Do you understand that in this game dungeons have no cooldowns. So if you can buy master weapons for tokens in the game with no cooldowns you end up with everyone having master weapons very soon. Which is almost the case already anyway. Most players who completed vma already have second-best trait if not the best one for the weapons they need.

So how do you make them rare? Because we really could have at least one item in game rare enough, no? Or do we want everyone to be running with BiS gear?

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me. Where do you draw the line? It is already not rare. I assume you guys draw the line where it is guaranteed that you personally can get it, right?

[...]

So how do you make them rare? Because we really could have at least one item in game rare enough, no? Or do we want everyone to be running with BiS gear?

Simple. Make it 1000 tokens per weapon. 1 token per run. Make the weapons from the chest v14, or significantly weaker than the token ones. Not everyone will be crazy enough to farm vMA 1000 times, but there still will be some. "Rarity" problem solved. Everything is fair.

Let me give you a few examples out of my current environment:

- One player I know paid another player to run it for him just to complete it because he wasn't able to get past the third arena. He got a Sharpened Flame Staff. From this run he also got to the leaderboard and got a Precise Restoration Staff. He now never has to run vMA again.
- Another player struggled for weeks. I helped him and "talked" him through the whole arena and tactics. First run: Sharpened Flame Staff, second run: Precise Resto, third run: Sharpened Bow, 4th run: some jewelry crap, 5th run: Sharpened Maul. He isn't even able to complete the arena in one go, since he'd need 5+ hours for one run (and that on a Sorc). In just 5 runs he has gotten all the weapons I want, while I haven't gotten a single one of them in around 130 runs. This was the moment I unsubscribed from ESO Plus.
- I know other players going for a Sharpened Flame Staff. In particular, one player that has completed the arena over 600 times by now. He has never seen a single Flame Staff. Not even on Defending.

I'm ok with players being lucky, but I want my skill to be rewarded! And as I said, I'm ok with farming it 1000 times and accept the fact that this game hates me if and only if there's a guarantee I'm not farming for nothing. Right now, there is no guarantee. Every run is a new gamble. After 1000 runs, there's no difference if it's your 1001st run or 1st run. The chance is still close to 0. It hasn't taken the runs before that into account.

The game is punishing me for no reason for playing it. That's why I prefer paying for Black Desert where skill and time investment is rewarded and will never support ESO financially again until it stops punishing me for playing it.

Flak · May 2016

All these changes are just made to avoid a much-needed change of the general looting system. I'm against giving out everything after the first run but there's got to be a goal for players to work for, a goal that must be clearly achievable and not pure RNG.
I do not mind to grind for something, but I want to know that after X runs I will get it, even if it's 500.

Artis · May 2016

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me. Where do you draw the line? It is already not rare. I assume you guys draw the line where it is guaranteed that you personally can get it, right?

[...]

So how do you make them rare? Because we really could have at least one item in game rare enough, no? Or do we want everyone to be running with BiS gear?

Simple. Make it 1000 tokens per weapon. 1 token per run. Make the weapons from the chest v14, or significantly weaker than the token ones. Not everyone will be crazy enough to farm vMA 1000 times, but there still will be some. "Rarity" problem solved. Everything is fair.

Let me give you a few examples out of my current environment:

- One player I know paid another player to run it for him just to complete it because he wasn't able to get past the third arena. He got a Sharpened Flame Staff. From this run he also got to the leaderboard and got a Precise Restoration Staff. He now never has to run vMA again.
- Another player struggled for weeks. I helped him and "talked" him through the whole arena and tactics. First run: Sharpened Flame Staff, second run: Precise Resto, third run: Sharpened Bow, 4th run: some jewelry crap, 5th run: Sharpened Maul. He isn't even able to complete the arena in one go, since he'd need 5+ hours for one run (and that on a Sorc). In just 5 runs he has gotten all the weapons I want, while I haven't gotten a single one of them in around 130 runs. This was the moment I unsubscribed from ESO Plus.
- I know other players going for a Sharpened Flame Staff. In particular, one player that has completed the arena over 600 times by now. He has never seen a single Flame Staff. Not even on Defending.

I'm ok with players being lucky, but I want my skill to be rewarded! And as I said, I'm ok with farming it 1000 times and accept the fact that this game hates me if and only if there's a guarantee I'm not farming for nothing. Right now, there is no guarantee. Every run is a new gamble. After 1000 runs, there's no difference if it's your 1001st run or 1st run. The chance is still close to 0. It hasn't taken the runs before that into account.

The game is punishing me for no reason for playing it. That's why I prefer paying for Black Desert where skill and time investment is rewarded and will never support ESO financially again until it stops punishing me for playing it.

Your skill is rewarded with the achievement and the titles. After you complete it a couple of times you don't need any more skill - you just farm.

Introducing tokens like you suggest won't solve the problem that caused your frustration - somebody WILL loot weapons due to RNG + you will have people who just farm tokens in the dungeon with no cooldown. Also - most people will complain that 1000 tokens is a lot and ask to reduce the number, which would eventually be reduced.

I will repeat again: you are not supposed to be able to farm it and count on getting it. That kills the whole point. If you can do it - then everyone can do it, then in no time everyone who can complete will have a weapon of their choice. Then it's not rare. Accept that somebody won't get it (since it's rare), accept that you might be one of those people, like I accepted. It's already not rare, in endgame PvE guilds, whose players you see on trials (top scores) and vma leaderboards all the time, EVERYONE has those weapons.

So stop complaining that you farm and boo-hoo can't get it. You aren't entitled to get it just because you ran vma multiple times.

If you want your skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for master weapons to be lootable ONLY in no-death runs? That would reward the skill, not just the time spent. That would keep weapons more or less rare for some time. Just completing it 1000 or 1001 times doesn't show your skill. You completed it once - you know the fights and can complete it, no surprise here. Completing it without deaths, however, is a different thing. And even that will be easier when they increase CP cap. So only bad RNG can keep the weapons rare and their loot unexpected (not something you plan or count on) long-term, don't you see?

But no, you want it easily accessible, don't you? Just so YOU can get it with 100% certainty at some point.

code65536 · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me.

I'm not ignoring you. Just didn't see the point in replying when someone else more or less said what I was going to say.

At any rate, your arguments are built upon a foundation of principles and opinions that is at odds with mine--and I dare to say pretty much everyone else's, too.

First, you bring up the topic of rarity, to which I reply that it is very rare in the general player base. Of course, if you look at a guild like Nightfighters, it's not going to be rare. But if you want to argue that the weapons should be rare even within NF, then you're just setting an arbitrarily high bar for what you think is an appropriate level of rarity--a bar that, frankly, is unrealistic. At which point would it be rare enough? If it's rare within Nightfighters? If it's rare within Hodor? If you step outside of the bubble and go PUG a few dungeons, you'll see that they are indeed very rare. Maybe not rare enough for your tastes, in which case, all I can say is that the premise of your argument is based on a wildly unrealistic benchmark.

Next, the point that I and others make is that RNG is not fair. Zelia (who has since quit ESO and is now playing BDO) has run it hundreds of times. He had countless no-death runs when he was jostling for a competitive leaderboard position. Yet he had never gotten a sharpened destro staff of any sort, whereas a scrub like me, who trudges through it non-competitively just once or twice a week for the weekly, has gotten three sharpened destro staves. How exactly is that fair?

You never really address the fairness question. You say that people should just be content with getting the title and learn to accept that they might never get the weapon. Well, that might work if it was something like an Imperial Motif, but this is something that requires skill and where the reward is something that grants a tangible benefit to someone's gameplay.

In short, I don't accept the bar that you set for rarity; poke your head outside the bubble for a moment and see just how rare these things really are. Second, I don't accept your opinion that "you are not supposed to be able to farm it and count on getting it". Why not? "You earn what you work for" is a fundamental human value. You dismiss this out of hand and fret about too many people earning the weapons, which simply makes no sense to me. Denying people a reward for their effort harms the game far more than making these items not quite as rare as your wildly unrealistic benchmark of rarity.

Now, if you can convince me that these things do need to be exceptionally rare and that there is merit for that, then we can talk. But right now, everything you say is based on a premise that very few would agree with.

Myerscod · May 2016

player_klaus wrote: »

...and while youre at it:

its about time to make vMSA-loot (excluding maelstrom weps, ofc) BoE. its just ridonculous, we cannot share or sell what we dont need.

ty

Completely agree. I don't want to run vMSA on my pvp tailored toon. I can run it on my tailored vMSA toon then give them the weapon. If you're going to keep bind on pickup then PLEASE change it to bind per account and not per character!

Destruent · May 2016

Myerscod wrote: »

player_klaus wrote: »

...and while youre at it:

its about time to make vMSA-loot (excluding maelstrom weps, ofc) BoE. its just ridonculous, we cannot share or sell what we dont need.

ty

Completely agree. I don't want to run vMSA on my pvp tailored toon. I can run it on my tailored vMSA toon then give them the weapon. If you're going to keep bind on pickup then PLEASE change it to bind per account and not per character!

ehm...do you even own a maelstromeweapon? They are bound on account...not bound on character....

dagonbeer · May 2016

Myerscod wrote: »

Completely agree. I don't want to run vMSA on my pvp tailored toon. I can run it on my tailored vMSA toon then give them the weapon. If you're going to keep bind on pickup then PLEASE change it to bind per account and not per character!

I'm actually not aware of any equipment that is bound per character (only such items I'm aware of are things like crafting writ reward boxes, etc.) I've definitely been passing maelstrom weps between my chars.

Myerscod · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

Myerscod wrote: »

Completely agree. I don't want to run vMSA on my pvp tailored toon. I can run it on my tailored vMSA toon then give them the weapon. If you're going to keep bind on pickup then PLEASE change it to bind per account and not per character!

I'm actually not aware of any equipment that is bound per character (only such items I'm aware of are things like crafting writ reward boxes, etc.) I've definitely been passing maelstrom weps between my chars.

Doh, my bad. I was caught up arguing with a guy at work today who convinced me this was a thing. #facepalm

Ishammael · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me. Where do you draw the line? It is already not rare. I assume you guys draw the line where it is guaranteed that you personally can get it, right?

[...]

So how do you make them rare? Because we really could have at least one item in game rare enough, no? Or do we want everyone to be running with BiS gear?

Simple. Make it 1000 tokens per weapon. 1 token per run. Make the weapons from the chest v14, or significantly weaker than the token ones. Not everyone will be crazy enough to farm vMA 1000 times, but there still will be some. "Rarity" problem solved. Everything is fair.

Let me give you a few examples out of my current environment:

- One player I know paid another player to run it for him just to complete it because he wasn't able to get past the third arena. He got a Sharpened Flame Staff. From this run he also got to the leaderboard and got a Precise Restoration Staff. He now never has to run vMA again.
- Another player struggled for weeks. I helped him and "talked" him through the whole arena and tactics. First run: Sharpened Flame Staff, second run: Precise Resto, third run: Sharpened Bow, 4th run: some jewelry crap, 5th run: Sharpened Maul. He isn't even able to complete the arena in one go, since he'd need 5+ hours for one run (and that on a Sorc). In just 5 runs he has gotten all the weapons I want, while I haven't gotten a single one of them in around 130 runs. This was the moment I unsubscribed from ESO Plus.
- I know other players going for a Sharpened Flame Staff. In particular, one player that has completed the arena over 600 times by now. He has never seen a single Flame Staff. Not even on Defending.

I'm ok with players being lucky, but I want my skill to be rewarded! And as I said, I'm ok with farming it 1000 times and accept the fact that this game hates me if and only if there's a guarantee I'm not farming for nothing. Right now, there is no guarantee. Every run is a new gamble. After 1000 runs, there's no difference if it's your 1001st run or 1st run. The chance is still close to 0. It hasn't taken the runs before that into account.

The game is punishing me for no reason for playing it. That's why I prefer paying for Black Desert where skill and time investment is rewarded and will never support ESO financially again until it stops punishing me for playing it.

Your skill is rewarded with the achievement and the titles. After you complete it a couple of times you don't need any more skill - you just farm.

Introducing tokens like you suggest won't solve the problem that caused your frustration - somebody WILL loot weapons due to RNG + you will have people who just farm tokens in the dungeon with no cooldown. Also - most people will complain that 1000 tokens is a lot and ask to reduce the number, which would eventually be reduced.

I will repeat again: you are not supposed to be able to farm it and count on getting it. That kills the whole point. If you can do it - then everyone can do it, then in no time everyone who can complete will have a weapon of their choice. Then it's not rare. Accept that somebody won't get it (since it's rare), accept that you might be one of those people, like I accepted. It's already not rare, in endgame PvE guilds, whose players you see on trials (top scores) and vma leaderboards all the time, EVERYONE has those weapons.

So stop complaining that you farm and boo-hoo can't get it. You aren't entitled to get it just because you ran vma multiple times.

If you want your skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for master weapons to be lootable ONLY in no-death runs? That would reward the skill, not just the time spent. That would keep weapons more or less rare for some time. Just completing it 1000 or 1001 times doesn't show your skill. You completed it once - you know the fights and can complete it, no surprise here. Completing it without deaths, however, is a different thing. And even that will be easier when they increase CP cap. So only bad RNG can keep the weapons rare and their loot unexpected (not something you plan or count on) long-term, don't you see?

But no, you want it easily accessible, don't you? Just so YOU can get it with 100% certainty at some point.

Nobody wants to remain in the Skinner Box.

Shadesofkin · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

If you want your skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for master weapons to be lootable ONLY in no-death runs? That would reward the skill, not just the time spent. That would keep weapons more or less rare for some time.

That is a tad extreme in my opinion.

potirondb16_ESO · May 2016

Actually opinion about how rare can a maestrom weapon be is easily answered.

There's 6 type of weapon in this game but the loot table actually suggest 10 potential loot, which each loot has 3 differents version to propose (traits). Which lead to potentially 30 differents object. Considering that a maestrom weapon has 1/2 chance to drop.

That mean that the actual chance of getting the perfect drop falls into 1,6666%. I do understand what rare means but still...

Don't get me wrong I don't want everyone to run in once and be like ok I got my best in slot object... that would be kind of shamefull Inside an MMO but the fact that in 60 round you could actually be at like 7% chance to have it... I mean the loot table are way too big. I personnally wouldn't object to lowering the traits to one per type of object in order to keep the loot table at 5% so that after 50 run you'd be at 50% chance of having it.

(DW (D/A)/BoW/DS/RS/2H(A/S/M)/1HS(S/M))

Decado · May 2016

Artis,
Tell me because I can't figure it out, are you a troll or just full of ***?

Firstly malestrom weapons are rare, I'm in a 500 man guild and less than 20 of us have weapons,
but uour obviously hell bent on ignoring every guild apart from high end guilds and claim they all have perfect weapons, again I call ***, I'm in a high end guild and a lot of us don't have perfect weapons hell some of us don't even have decent weapons of the type we need, I have perfect trait in every Stam weapon but not 1 precise or sharpened destro, in all my God knows how many runs yesterday was my first ever destro staff and it was a defending,

As for giving it out on deathless only I'm not even going to entertain that as a real suggestion, I have my flawless and half of my runs i die atleast once either to my own stupidity or to a bug etc.

I'm led to believe you just like feeling special with your weapon,

Let's ignore the other 99.5% of the game population because your happy?

DDemon · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That's what I'm asking code, for example, but he ignored me. Where do you draw the line? It is already not rare. I assume you guys draw the line where it is guaranteed that you personally can get it, right?

[...]

So how do you make them rare? Because we really could have at least one item in game rare enough, no? Or do we want everyone to be running with BiS gear?

Simple. Make it 1000 tokens per weapon. 1 token per run. Make the weapons from the chest v14, or significantly weaker than the token ones. Not everyone will be crazy enough to farm vMA 1000 times, but there still will be some. "Rarity" problem solved. Everything is fair.

Let me give you a few examples out of my current environment:

- One player I know paid another player to run it for him just to complete it because he wasn't able to get past the third arena. He got a Sharpened Flame Staff. From this run he also got to the leaderboard and got a Precise Restoration Staff. He now never has to run vMA again.
- Another player struggled for weeks. I helped him and "talked" him through the whole arena and tactics. First run: Sharpened Flame Staff, second run: Precise Resto, third run: Sharpened Bow, 4th run: some jewelry crap, 5th run: Sharpened Maul. He isn't even able to complete the arena in one go, since he'd need 5+ hours for one run (and that on a Sorc). In just 5 runs he has gotten all the weapons I want, while I haven't gotten a single one of them in around 130 runs. This was the moment I unsubscribed from ESO Plus.
- I know other players going for a Sharpened Flame Staff. In particular, one player that has completed the arena over 600 times by now. He has never seen a single Flame Staff. Not even on Defending.

I'm ok with players being lucky, but I want my skill to be rewarded! And as I said, I'm ok with farming it 1000 times and accept the fact that this game hates me if and only if there's a guarantee I'm not farming for nothing. Right now, there is no guarantee. Every run is a new gamble. After 1000 runs, there's no difference if it's your 1001st run or 1st run. The chance is still close to 0. It hasn't taken the runs before that into account.

The game is punishing me for no reason for playing it. That's why I prefer paying for Black Desert where skill and time investment is rewarded and will never support ESO financially again until it stops punishing me for playing it.

...

If you want your skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for master weapons to be lootable ONLY in no-death runs? That would reward the skill, not just the time spent. That would keep weapons more or less rare for some time. Just completing it 1000 or 1001 times doesn't show your skill. You completed it once - you know the fights and can complete it, no surprise here. Completing it without deaths, however, is a different thing. And even that will be easier when they increase CP cap. So only bad RNG can keep the weapons rare and their loot unexpected (not something you plan or count on) long-term, don't you see?

But no, you want it easily accessible, don't you? Just so YOU can get it with 100% certainty at some point.

If you want your skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for master weapons to be lootable ONLY in no-death runs? That would reward the skill, not just the time spent. That would keep weapons more or less rare for some time. <-- Do it. I have ran Maelstrom so many times now, I consistently get no death runs. I have close to 10 of all the random stamina based weapons, and about 9 resto staves. So far, all I got from the weekly rewards are resto staves, and one axe. I would very much like to finally get a precise fire staff please.

redspecter23 · May 2016

player_klaus wrote: »

...and while youre at it:

its about time to make vMSA-loot (excluding maelstrom weps, ofc) BoE. its just ridonculous, we cannot share or sell what we dont need.

ty

ZoS, while you were in there changing things, was this not even kinda considered as an option? Players that can actually beat vMSA have little interest in these sets and more casual players that might want the sets aren't at an elite enough level to earn them. Easy solution is to allow players to sell the sets. Would it really be that game breaking?

Also, kinda off topic, but make Trinimac, Briarheart and Pariah drop at v16 and BOE. The troll has gone on long enough.

Artis · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

I'm not ignoring you. Just didn't see the point in replying when someone else more or less said what I was going to say.

At any rate, your arguments are built upon a foundation of principles and opinions that is at odds with mine--and I dare to say pretty much everyone else's, too.

First, you bring up the topic of rarity, to which I reply that it is very rare in the general player base. Of course, if you look at a guild like Nightfighters, it's not going to be rare. But if you want to argue that the weapons should be rare even within NF, then you're just setting an arbitrarily high bar for what you think is an appropriate level of rarity--a bar that, frankly, is unrealistic. At which point would it be rare enough? If it's rare within Nightfighters? If it's rare within Hodor? If you step outside of the bubble and go PUG a few dungeons, you'll see that they are indeed very rare. Maybe not rare enough for your tastes, in which case, all I can say is that the premise of your argument is based on a wildly unrealistic benchmark.

Next, the point that I and others make is that RNG is not fair. Zelia (who has since quit ESO and is now playing BDO) has run it hundreds of times. He had countless no-death runs when he was jostling for a competitive leaderboard position. Yet he had never gotten a sharpened destro staff of any sort, whereas a scrub like me, who trudges through it non-competitively just once or twice a week for the weekly, has gotten three sharpened destro staves. How exactly is that fair?

You never really address the fairness question. You say that people should just be content with getting the title and learn to accept that they might never get the weapon. Well, that might work if it was something like an Imperial Motif, but this is something that requires skill and where the reward is something that grants a tangible benefit to someone's gameplay.

In short, I don't accept the bar that you set for rarity; poke your head outside the bubble for a moment and see just how rare these things really are. Second, I don't accept your opinion that "you are not supposed to be able to farm it and count on getting it". Why not? "You earn what you work for" is a fundamental human value. You dismiss this out of hand and fret about too many people earning the weapons, which simply makes no sense to me. Denying people a reward for their effort harms the game far more than making these items not quite as rare as your wildly unrealistic benchmark of rarity.

Now, if you can convince me that these things do need to be exceptionally rare and that there is merit for that, then we can talk. But right now, everything you say is based on a premise that very few would agree with.

I did address the fairness question. And again - it's fair because everyone is in the same conditions. You didn't get it because you are you and he wasn't able to get it not because he was him. It's RNG. It's fair to everyone. Everyone is equal in the face of RNGesus. Come on, take a theory of probabilities class

Also, let me remind you that the burden of proof lies on you because you are making the claim that it's unfair. And I'd say you failed to prove it so far. Your only argument is that it's unfair because somebody didn't get the weapon he wanted. That's not unfair - that's RNG and it's "fair" to everyone.

Now I stressed it in my post - if you want the skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for weapons to only drop after a no-death run? Because what you're asking for is to just increase the drop rate and give it to everyone who can complete VMA, basically.

Yes, this one thing can and need to be especially rare. That was the whole point. People were complaining that everyone could get all the gear, trials took 10-15 mins and were easy. That's when vDSA appeared and we got ONE piece of gear that not everyone was supposed to get. Can we have 1 item like that? You can have 99.99% of the items in the game easily - simply by farming dungeons, that aren't even that hard. Similarly, do you support nerfing vet icp, wgt and coa? Maybe they should nerf vMA too? Can't some players have 1% of the content? Just 1.

It is important to have some items like that. So that you have some diversity in gear and builds. So players have incentive to do content. So that looting a master weapons actually feels good. Not like "meh I got one more". It is good if at least one piece is MEANINGFUL! Why do you think it is bad?

I can't convince you, obviously, you made up your mind long time before this thread was created. But can't you see my point, really? Why do you want everyone to have access to everything?

Shadesofkin wrote: »

That is a tad extreme in my opinion.

I don't disagree, but I want to see what they're gonna say, since they claim that increase drop rate is rewarding the skill. It's not, but having a 100% rate for a no-death run - would be. Still, the weapons would lose their value when everyone has more CP.

Decado wrote: »

Artis,
Tell me because I can't figure it out, are you a troll or just full of ***?

Firstly malestrom weapons are rare, I'm in a 500 man guild and less than 20 of us have weapons,
but uour obviously hell bent on ignoring every guild apart from high end guilds and claim they all have perfect weapons, again I call ***, I'm in a high end guild and a lot of us don't have perfect weapons hell some of us don't even have decent weapons of the type we need, I have perfect trait in every Stam weapon but not 1 precise or sharpened destro, in all my God knows how many runs yesterday was my first ever destro staff and it was a defending,

As for giving it out on deathless only I'm not even going to entertain that as a real suggestion, I have my flawless and half of my runs i die atleast once either to my own stupidity or to a bug etc.

I'm led to believe you just like feeling special with your weapon,

Let's ignore the other 99.5% of the game population because your happy?

Pretty much. People who get them should feel special. No, I don't. I still didn't see some weapons in my runs. I am talking about what would be better for the game, not for the feelz of the majority of players. You are supposed to run vMA because it's fun and/or for leaderboard. If you don't like it - don't run it. If you like it - run it and maybe get a weapon. Or not, it doesn't matter because you run it because you like it. That's how it's supposed to be.

Your 99.5% of population can easily get 99.5% of the items in game. Why do you think they are supposed to have every single one that others have? Bernie Sanders, is this you?

p.s. oh and just the fact that a few would agree with me doesn't make me wrong. Why would you even bring this up? Just a few agreed with Newton or Einstein back in the days. If I go to a middle or even high school, just a few students will agree that you can take a square root of a negative number. It really is not an indicator of anything.

code65536 · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

I did address the fairness question. And again - it's fair because everyone is in the same conditions. You didn't get it because you are you and he wasn't able to get it not because he was him. It's RNG. It's fair to everyone. Everyone is equal in the face of RNGesus. Come on, take a theory of probabilities class

If that's your idea of fair, then we have very different ideas about what fairness actually means. No, luck/RNG is NOT universally fair. Would you consider it "fair" if, at the end of the work week, your HR department rolls dice to determine if you should get paid or not? Luck is fair if you're looting motifs or scratching lottery tickets. Luck is not fair in this context. I've already expended enough keystrokes explaining the difference in my earlier posts.

Artis wrote: »

Also, let me remind you that the burden of proof lies on you because you are making the claim that it's unfair.

Philosophical ideas of what "fairness" means are not things that are proved or disproved through an evidential process. What does matter, though, is that most people hate the RNG/luck system, and most people think that it's unfair. And what does matter are the number of people on my in-game friends list who no longer log on because they've lost all patience with the RNG bulls***. I think it's fair to say (pun intended) that you are in a tiny minority in actually labeling the RNG loot system as fair.

Artis wrote: »

Now I stressed it in my post - if you want the skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for weapons to only drop after a no-death run? Because what you're asking for is to just increase the drop rate and give it to everyone who can complete VMA, basically.

No, I'm asking for a predictable and even drop rate. It's a good thing that I don't have any stamina characters because in the process of getting my magicka weapons, I have gotten almost no stamina DPS weapons. Yes as a magicka player, RNGesus has blessed me with lots of magicka vMA weapons, but I still curse its name because of all the people who have been screwed by it, and because of all the friends that I used to play with who have left the game in disgust over problems like this. I'm asking for people to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel instead of knowing that the chances of getting what they want on their 200th run is still the same as the chance of getting it on their 1st.

I don't understand why this is so hard to get through to you. The complaint isn't that the drop rate is too low. It's that RNG screws people with items that they don't want (even if it's a good item--e.g., a sharpened inferno staff for someone who plays stamina). The problem is RNG and the inherent unfairness of it. Increasing the drop rate is only one possible band-aid mitigator of RNG (and not a very good one; we need tokens), but the core problem is this cancer of RNG.

Artis wrote: »

Similarly, do you support nerfing vet icp, wgt and coa? Maybe they should nerf vMA too? Can't some players have 1% of the content? Just 1.

Nobody in this thread has said anything about nerfing vMA. Stop throwing out these red herrings. And I am on the record on this forum opposing the dungeon nerfs (in fact, I probably have the first post about the nerfing right after the teaser article was posted saying that there will be "rebalancing"). The fact remains that vMA is something that probably 1% of the general player base can complete. And if that's not rare enough for you, then I have no idea what to say except that you need more perspective.

What people want is a less frustrating loot system. One that doesn't cause people to lose hope. Yes, there are people who have run it hundreds of times and not gotten what they want. And if you think that's okay and fair and that those people are somehow undeserving, then, really, I have no idea what else I can say to you, except to throw your own words back at you: "I can't convince you, obviously, you made up your mind long time before this thread was created."

Decado · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

Pretty much. People who get them should feel special. No, I don't. I still didn't see some weapons in my runs. I am talking about what would be better for the game, not for the feelz of the majority of players. You are supposed to run vMA because it's fun and/or for leaderboard. If you don't like it - don't run it. If you like it - run it and maybe get a weapon. Or not, it doesn't matter because you run it because you like it. That's how it's supposed to be.

Your 99.5% of population can easily get 99.5% of the items in game. Why do you think they are supposed to have every single one that others have? Bernie Sanders, is this you?

im supposed to run vMA because its fun? *** i run it because i need the weapons to maximize my DPS this is a *** MMO if i wanted to spend hours gaming alone i would play fallout, im on this game to play with others.

and your not talking about what would be better for the game atall, how could you be? if 99.5% of people are pissed off with the loot system and .5% are happy with it how is that good for the game?

how many players have left the game due to the loot system? how many have stopped paying? how is that good for the longevity of the game?

and i think people should be able to get all the loot if they can complete the content, nobody here is asking for free hand outs or nerfs, we are asking for a better loot system! they complete the content they should get the reward not a slap in the face for there efforts

Decado · May 2016

double post

Lava_Croft · May 2016

I would like PvP players to have a chance at getting these weapons without having to endlessly grind a boring PvE instance.

Shadesofkin · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I would like PvP players to have a chance at getting these weapons without having to endlessly grind a boring PvE instance.

That should *never* happen.

Function · May 2016

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

Decado · May 2016

Function wrote: »

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

if that picture doesnt open peoples eyes nothing will

dagonbeer · May 2016

Decado wrote: »

Function wrote: »

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

if that picture doesnt open peoples eyes nothing will

The takeaway being that if a naked lvl 10 character can run it, it's too easy to farm and should be made more difficult / nerf drops more?

Decado · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

Function wrote: »

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

if that picture doesnt open peoples eyes nothing will

The takeaway being that if a naked lvl 10 character can run it, it's too easy to farm and should be made more difficult / nerf drops more?

oh god dont say stuff like that! people will actually start thinking that

Lava_Croft · May 2016

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I would like PvP players to have a chance at getting these weapons without having to endlessly grind a boring PvE instance.

That should *never* happen.

Just make it Bind on Equip, like all PvP gear. Never heard PvE players complain about being able to buy Arch-Mage or Ravager.

Artis · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

I did address the fairness question. And again - it's fair because everyone is in the same conditions. You didn't get it because you are you and he wasn't able to get it not because he was him. It's RNG. It's fair to everyone. Everyone is equal in the face of RNGesus. Come on, take a theory of probabilities class

If that's your idea of fair, then we have very different ideas about what fairness actually means. No, luck/RNG is NOT universally fair. Would you consider it "fair" if, at the end of the work week, your HR department rolls dice to determine if you should get paid or not? Luck is fair if you're looting motifs or scratching lottery tickets. Luck is not fair in this context. I've already expended enough keystrokes explaining the difference in my earlier posts.

Artis wrote: »

Also, let me remind you that the burden of proof lies on you because you are making the claim that it's unfair.

Philosophical ideas of what "fairness" means are not things that are proved or disproved through an evidential process. What does matter, though, is that most people hate the RNG/luck system, and most people think that it's unfair. And what does matter are the number of people on my in-game friends list who no longer log on because they've lost all patience with the RNG bulls***. I think it's fair to say (pun intended) that you are in a tiny minority in actually labeling the RNG loot system as fair.

Artis wrote: »

Now I stressed it in my post - if you want the skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for weapons to only drop after a no-death run? Because what you're asking for is to just increase the drop rate and give it to everyone who can complete VMA, basically.

No, I'm asking for a predictable and even drop rate. It's a good thing that I don't have any stamina characters because in the process of getting my magicka weapons, I have gotten almost no stamina DPS weapons. Yes as a magicka player, RNGesus has blessed me with lots of magicka vMA weapons, but I still curse its name because of all the people who have been screwed by it, and because of all the friends that I used to play with who have left the game in disgust over problems like this. I'm asking for people to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel instead of knowing that the chances of getting what they want on their 200th run is still the same as the chance of getting it on their 1st.

I don't understand why this is so hard to get through to you. The complaint isn't that the drop rate is too low. It's that RNG screws people with items that they don't want (even if it's a good item--e.g., a sharpened inferno staff for someone who plays stamina). The problem is RNG and the inherent unfairness of it. Increasing the drop rate is only one possible band-aid mitigator of RNG (and not a very good one; we need tokens), but the core problem is this cancer of RNG.

Artis wrote: »

Similarly, do you support nerfing vet icp, wgt and coa? Maybe they should nerf vMA too? Can't some players have 1% of the content? Just 1.

Nobody in this thread has said anything about nerfing vMA. Stop throwing out these red herrings. And I am on the record on this forum opposing the dungeon nerfs (in fact, I probably have the first post about the nerfing right after the teaser article was posted saying that there will be "rebalancing"). The fact remains that vMA is something that probably 1% of the general player base can complete. And if that's not rare enough for you, then I have no idea what to say except that you need more perspective.

What people want is a less frustrating loot system. One that doesn't cause people to lose hope. Yes, there are people who have run it hundreds of times and not gotten what they want. And if you think that's okay and fair and that those people are somehow undeserving, then, really, I have no idea what else I can say to you, except to throw your own words back at you: "I can't convince you, obviously, you made up your mind long time before this thread was created."

1. Nope, it is fair in this context as well. It's not salary and it's not a job. No one is forcing you to run vMA. You don't need to do it. It's like lottery tickets rather than a job. If you buy a ticket - you know the odds are low and you don't go to their forums to complain. If you go to vMA you know the odds to loot a weapon (especially with a certain trait) are low, so you shouldn't complain either. It's a game, not a job. How is RNG unfair in this game if it's fair in another game?

Also, even if it's a boss rolling dice to decide if you're paid or not.. If you signed a contract that allows him to do that - it is fair. You admitted it will be happening. Same here - if you go to vMA, you signed the contract. You know the dice will be rolled. If you don't like it - don't sign the contract, go do some other content. It's just 1 piece and 1 dungeon.

2.Oh, so it's unfair because they can't get the toy that they want? Boo-hoo. If you have friends that only log if they're promised to reliably get a gear, maybe you shouldn't play an MMO? Or they shouldn't? They are supposed to play because it's fun to do content. Just because someone can't get 1 piece of gear - they should be entitled to some changes in drop rate? They already can get everything else. Is everyone supposed to have every piece of gear?
Also, it doesn't matter who's in minority. People need to read some books and understand that RNG is fair. Everyone has the same chances to loot something. And yes, somebody will loot something faster, and yes - it might be other players.

3. I see where the problem is. The majority of players don't understand how probabilities work. I even quote this thing separately:

I'm asking for people to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel instead of knowing that the chances of getting what they want on their 200th run is still the same as the chance of getting it on their 1st

This is exactly what is supposed to be happening. A chance of get something specific is the same for every single run. If you throw a dice and you really want to get "6", anyway, every time you throw it the chance of getting it is 1/6. The 1st time and the 200th time. So yes, that's the nature of RNG. What you're asking for is for them be guaranteed to get what they want by their 200th run, right? So you want to either increase the drop rate or to make dynamic so that it increases with every run? Or tokens so they for sure are going to get what they want? So that's basically making an exclusive item a common item and is pretty much the same as increasing the drop rate.

Again, the problem for you is a low drop rate. You can deny it all you want and call it what you want, but that's what you describe. You have N types of weapons, you have a certain probability to loot a weapon. These two events are independent, therefore you multiply two probabilities. The probability to get exactly what you want is low and stays the same for all your runs. Looting stamina weapons or magicka weapons is just bad luck. Don't even point at your own results. Somebody only looted stam weps, others - only magicka weps. IT's even across the board. What matters is whether or not you looted exactly what you want. If you want an inferno staff - looting a resto staff is the same as looting a bow. So don't even distinguish stam and mage weps here - it's irrelevant.

A drop rate is predictable. You want me to give you a formula on how to predict it? It will only have 1 unknown parameter - the probability to loot a weapon at all. Which is constant for all runs. So you can calibrate, if you want, and predict your drop rate. No clue what you could mean by that. The drop rate is constant. You can't predict when exactly you loot exactly what you want, though. That's not how probabilities work.

The RNG is not inherently unfair. It is inherently fair: everyone has the same chance of getting anything at any given run. How is it unfair if literally everyone has equal chance/opportunity. Do you want equality of outcomes now?

4. I'm not saying you ask to nerf vma. But you ask to make master weapons common, which is similar to asking to nerf vicp,wgt,coa, just so that more people can have access to it. If you support not nerfing those dungeons because "Can good players have at least 1% of content for them?", it's hypocrite of you to deny lucky/dedicated players 1% of items.
Can people with master weapons have 1 item for them? Not even 1% of items.

5. Undeserving? what? No one deserves nothing. It's a game, it's not a job. Just because you ran a dungeon 100 as opposed to 10 times you don't deserve a certain piece of loot. You already have more decon loot, soulgems and other sets. You don't like them? Too bad, but no one forced you to "sign the contract" (see 1.)

As I already asked you above. What about fishing? What about motifs? What about emperorship? If I want those achievements, why won't you ask to make them more accessible? I can fish for 100 hours but don't get achievements, while someone else will get some in 10 hours. I can run PvP for 100 hours but never get an achievement, because someone ran it for 101h or in a better group, or in the opposite faction which never let my faction crown me. Why do you introduce term "undeserving" for those who spent many hours in vMA, but not in other activities? Are they undeserving? But vma farmer suddenly deserve and are entitled to something just because they ran vMA many times?

Decado wrote: »

im supposed to run vMA because its fun? *** i run it because i need the weapons to maximize my DPS this is a *** MMO if i wanted to spend hours gaming alone i would play fallout, im on this game to play with others.

and your not talking about what would be better for the game atall, how could you be? if 99.5% of people are pissed off with the loot system and .5% are happy with it how is that good for the game?

how many players have left the game due to the loot system? how many have stopped paying? how is that good for the longevity of the game?

and i think people should be able to get all the loot if they can complete the content, nobody here is asking for free hand outs or nerfs, we are asking for a better loot system! they complete the content they should get the reward not a slap in the face for there efforts

6. Yes, if it's not fun for you - do not run it. Problem solved. You're welcome.

7. No, you don't need those weapons. You can play with others without those weapons. If, as you say, almost no one has them - then there is no reason for your dps to be lower than theirs. You only need those weapons in vMA itself and maybe in VMOL, which 99.5% of people don't even attempt running. You won't waste spell power pots for pledges and solo farm and all that.

8. No, 99.5% are not happy that they can't have 1 items. And they can if they really want. No one is stopping them. It's good for the game, because they are motivated to run the content. But they aren't forced, everything can be completed without those weapons. It's not unfair that they don't have it, it's more like they remind spoiled kids who want all the toys from the store.

9. My estimate would be that roughly 10-15 people left due to loot system. Give or take. No clue why anyone would play mmo to get loot, instead of playing content with other people. And it's WoW, where you actually needed gear to progress further in raid dungeons. Here you can complete anything without this ONE item. Just use a usual nirnhoned staff, for example. You won't lose too much dps. If that's the only difference. You can see how much. Just check what your attack damage is, compare to what it would be and don't forget to check how much % of your damage is weapon attacks in a typical fight. Weps won't make it or break it.

Function wrote: »

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

Then don't run it.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

I did address the fairness question. And again - it's fair because everyone is in the same conditions. You didn't get it because you are you and he wasn't able to get it not because he was him. It's RNG. It's fair to everyone. Everyone is equal in the face of RNGesus. Come on, take a theory of probabilities class

If that's your idea of fair, then we have very different ideas about what fairness actually means. No, luck/RNG is NOT universally fair. Would you consider it "fair" if, at the end of the work week, your HR department rolls dice to determine if you should get paid or not? Luck is fair if you're looting motifs or scratching lottery tickets. Luck is not fair in this context. I've already expended enough keystrokes explaining the difference in my earlier posts.

Artis wrote: »

Also, let me remind you that the burden of proof lies on you because you are making the claim that it's unfair.

Philosophical ideas of what "fairness" means are not things that are proved or disproved through an evidential process. What does matter, though, is that most people hate the RNG/luck system, and most people think that it's unfair. And what does matter are the number of people on my in-game friends list who no longer log on because they've lost all patience with the RNG bulls***. I think it's fair to say (pun intended) that you are in a tiny minority in actually labeling the RNG loot system as fair.

Artis wrote: »

Now I stressed it in my post - if you want the skill to be rewarded, why don't you ask for weapons to only drop after a no-death run? Because what you're asking for is to just increase the drop rate and give it to everyone who can complete VMA, basically.

No, I'm asking for a predictable and even drop rate. It's a good thing that I don't have any stamina characters because in the process of getting my magicka weapons, I have gotten almost no stamina DPS weapons. Yes as a magicka player, RNGesus has blessed me with lots of magicka vMA weapons, but I still curse its name because of all the people who have been screwed by it, and because of all the friends that I used to play with who have left the game in disgust over problems like this. I'm asking for people to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel instead of knowing that the chances of getting what they want on their 200th run is still the same as the chance of getting it on their 1st.

I don't understand why this is so hard to get through to you. The complaint isn't that the drop rate is too low. It's that RNG screws people with items that they don't want (even if it's a good item--e.g., a sharpened inferno staff for someone who plays stamina). The problem is RNG and the inherent unfairness of it. Increasing the drop rate is only one possible band-aid mitigator of RNG (and not a very good one; we need tokens), but the core problem is this cancer of RNG.

Artis wrote: »

Similarly, do you support nerfing vet icp, wgt and coa? Maybe they should nerf vMA too? Can't some players have 1% of the content? Just 1.

Nobody in this thread has said anything about nerfing vMA. Stop throwing out these red herrings. And I am on the record on this forum opposing the dungeon nerfs (in fact, I probably have the first post about the nerfing right after the teaser article was posted saying that there will be "rebalancing"). The fact remains that vMA is something that probably 1% of the general player base can complete. And if that's not rare enough for you, then I have no idea what to say except that you need more perspective.

What people want is a less frustrating loot system. One that doesn't cause people to lose hope. Yes, there are people who have run it hundreds of times and not gotten what they want. And if you think that's okay and fair and that those people are somehow undeserving, then, really, I have no idea what else I can say to you, except to throw your own words back at you: "I can't convince you, obviously, you made up your mind long time before this thread was created."

1. Nope, it is fair in this context as well. It's not salary and it's not a job. No one is forcing you to run vMA. You don't need to do it. It's like lottery tickets rather than a job. If you buy a ticket - you know the odds are low and you don't go to their forums to complain. If you go to vMA you know the odds to loot a weapon (especially with a certain trait) are low, so you shouldn't complain either. It's a game, not a job. How is RNG unfair in this game if it's fair in another game?

Also, even if it's a boss rolling dice to decide if you're paid or not.. If you signed a contract that allows him to do that - it is fair. You admitted it will be happening. Same here - if you go to vMA, you signed the contract. You know the dice will be rolled. If you don't like it - don't sign the contract, go do some other content. It's just 1 piece and 1 dungeon.

2.Oh, so it's unfair because they can't get the toy that they want? Boo-hoo. If you have friends that only log if they're promised to reliably get a gear, maybe you shouldn't play an MMO? Or they shouldn't? They are supposed to play because it's fun to do content. Just because someone can't get 1 piece of gear - they should be entitled to some changes in drop rate? They already can get everything else. Is everyone supposed to have every piece of gear?
Also, it doesn't matter who's in minority. People need to read some books and understand that RNG is fair. Everyone has the same chances to loot something. And yes, somebody will loot something faster, and yes - it might be other players.

3. I see where the problem is. The majority of players don't understand how probabilities work. I even quote this thing separately:

I'm asking for people to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel instead of knowing that the chances of getting what they want on their 200th run is still the same as the chance of getting it on their 1st

This is exactly what is supposed to be happening. A chance of get something specific is the same for every single run. If you throw a dice and you really want to get "6", anyway, every time you throw it the chance of getting it is 1/6. The 1st time and the 200th time. So yes, that's the nature of RNG. What you're asking for is for them be guaranteed to get what they want by their 200th run, right? So you want to either increase the drop rate or to make dynamic so that it increases with every run? Or tokens so they for sure are going to get what they want? So that's basically making an exclusive item a common item and is pretty much the same as increasing the drop rate.

Again, the problem for you is a low drop rate. You can deny it all you want and call it what you want, but that's what you describe. You have N types of weapons, you have a certain probability to loot a weapon. These two events are independent, therefore you multiply two probabilities. The probability to get exactly what you want is low and stays the same for all your runs. Looting stamina weapons or magicka weapons is just bad luck. Don't even point at your own results. Somebody only looted stam weps, others - only magicka weps. IT's even across the board. What matters is whether or not you looted exactly what you want. If you want an inferno staff - looting a resto staff is the same as looting a bow. So don't even distinguish stam and mage weps here - it's irrelevant.

A drop rate is predictable. You want me to give you a formula on how to predict it? It will only have 1 unknown parameter - the probability to loot a weapon at all. Which is constant for all runs. So you can calibrate, if you want, and predict your drop rate. No clue what you could mean by that. The drop rate is constant. You can't predict when exactly you loot exactly what you want, though. That's not how probabilities work.

The RNG is not inherently unfair. It is inherently fair: everyone has the same chance of getting anything at any given run. How is it unfair if literally everyone has equal chance/opportunity. Do you want equality of outcomes now?

4. I'm not saying you ask to nerf vma. But you ask to make master weapons common, which is similar to asking to nerf vicp,wgt,coa, just so that more people can have access to it. If you support not nerfing those dungeons because "Can good players have at least 1% of content for them?", it's hypocrite of you to deny lucky/dedicated players 1% of items.
Can people with master weapons have 1 item for them? Not even 1% of items.

5. Undeserving? what? No one deserves nothing. It's a game, it's not a job. Just because you ran a dungeon 100 as opposed to 10 times you don't deserve a certain piece of loot. You already have more decon loot, soulgems and other sets. You don't like them? Too bad, but no one forced you to "sign the contract" (see 1.)

As I already asked you above. What about fishing? What about motifs? What about emperorship? If I want those achievements, why won't you ask to make them more accessible? I can fish for 100 hours but don't get achievements, while someone else will get some in 10 hours. I can run PvP for 100 hours but never get an achievement, because someone ran it for 101h or in a better group, or in the opposite faction which never let my faction crown me. Why do you introduce term "undeserving" for those who spent many hours in vMA, but not in other activities? Are they undeserving? But vma farmer suddenly deserve and are entitled to something just because they ran vMA many times?

Decado wrote: »

im supposed to run vMA because its fun? *** i run it because i need the weapons to maximize my DPS this is a *** MMO if i wanted to spend hours gaming alone i would play fallout, im on this game to play with others.

and your not talking about what would be better for the game atall, how could you be? if 99.5% of people are pissed off with the loot system and .5% are happy with it how is that good for the game?

how many players have left the game due to the loot system? how many have stopped paying? how is that good for the longevity of the game?

and i think people should be able to get all the loot if they can complete the content, nobody here is asking for free hand outs or nerfs, we are asking for a better loot system! they complete the content they should get the reward not a slap in the face for there efforts

6. Yes, if it's not fun for you - do not run it. Problem solved. You're welcome.

7. No, you don't need those weapons. You can play with others without those weapons. If, as you say, almost no one has them - then there is no reason for your dps to be lower than theirs. You only need those weapons in vMA itself and maybe in VMOL, which 99.5% of people don't even attempt running. You won't waste spell power pots for pledges and solo farm and all that.

8. No, 99.5% are not happy that they can't have 1 items. And they can if they really want. No one is stopping them. It's good for the game, because they are motivated to run the content. But they aren't forced, everything can be completed without those weapons. It's not unfair that they don't have it, it's more like they remind spoiled kids who want all the toys from the store.

9. My estimate would be that roughly 10-15 people left due to loot system. Give or take. No clue why anyone would play mmo to get loot, instead of playing content with other people. And it's WoW, where you actually needed gear to progress further in raid dungeons. Here you can complete anything without this ONE item. Just use a usual nirnhoned staff, for example. You won't lose too much dps. If that's the only difference. You can see how much. Just check what your attack damage is, compare to what it would be and don't forget to check how much % of your damage is weapon attacks in a typical fight. Weps won't make it or break it.

Function wrote: »

Could you please implement trait changes already? Or some type of light at the end of the tunnel.. running the arena endlessly to not be rewarded is incredibly frustrating.

Then don't run it.

Artis to be fair, this is a video game. The goal of the game for developers is to create something fun and challenging that players love to enjoy. As it is Maelstrom is NOT enjoyable content, I personally do not know a single individual who would want to run this content once they have obtained these items. So they already failed on the fun part. Now if we take a look at the rewards the situations gets even more grim. I have now 4+ of EVERY SINGLE stam weapon in the game in BOTH precise and sharpened traits. I also have the same for Resto and Lightning Staves. I have 2 Ice staves one precise 1 sharpened and exactly 1 maestrom precise fire staff....How is it that I have a disproportionately larger amount of stam weapons drop than magicka? It isnt fair it isnt fun it isnt worth it, but guess what I am in CSH and I often run with core. You CANNOT be on core if you do not run the arena in order to acquire it for the endgame raiding, it is a guild rule and a good rule since vMA staff offers the highest DPS. a token system would alleviate all of these issues and in my case I DO need the staff if I want to be a part of an elite group of players...so your theory doesnt quite work