Stop complaining about class balance in PvP!

Zheg · May 2016

_Chaos wrote: »

Really wanted to post what I just spent 10 minutes typing up.
Instead I'll just slam my head against this desk and move on.

Great thread, if you enjoy high blood pressure and theoretical tactics that don't work in practice.

Best to just let it go

Just because a thread gets frozn'ed doesn't mean you do too.

Minno · May 2016

tonemd wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

I swear to Ruptga, for those of you in DC, if you are magicka RUN A DAMN SIEGE SHIELD! Tired of having to put this heavy magicka skill on my bar as a Stam nighblade trying to getting people through a breech.

Also, in and to the left, or in and to the right. Don't be a breech tourist, standing at the hole, looking around and getting shot in the face. You've seen it before (we used to own it).

Or less glass cannon builds?

Though seriously, been running with a large group the past few weekends and the seige is negligible. VD only hits when we stopped unbuffed and unready. If one opening is heavily defended, we open a new hole or move onto another target.

Death by seige seemed normal and a mechanic to adjust gameplay after. I'm OK with that.

Can we go back to having fun and t-bagging?

God_flakes · May 2016

Breach tourist

Dreyloch · May 2016

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

This from the guy who created the Brazilian wax LOL. I know, I know, not the same thing, but I just had to comment

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

Dreyloch · May 2016

zyk wrote: »

Aside from Emp siege, I don't have a problem with siege in 2.3. But I haven't blobbed up since January, so perhaps that's why. I suppose the same goes for VD.

I tend to think the issue is player consolidation. In keep fights that aren't highly saturated with players, siege doesn't seem to be a big deal. I think this is because the RoI becomes low and it is deployed less.

It seems to me that some large groups are being sucked into bad, spammy lagfests for the reason most players are: AP. You know what's waiting for you at Chalman, and you go anyway. For the map? No. To find a good fight? No. Everyone is there for the tick.

I can't believe ZOS still can't figure out how to spread players out. @ZOS_BrianWheeler are you even trying? To start, perhaps considering changing the condition for deposing an Emp.

I'm with you on the emp siege thing, and that is getting fixed with DB iirc. Also, they are adding some mechanic dealing with exp. while on keep grounds? I don't know exactly what that's supposed to do. I don't see it making people hang out where there is no fight /shrug

God_flakes · May 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

Jules wrote: »

Omg the fact that it starts with figure 3 and ends with figure 4. I can't. Troll level 1000000

The sorc is a master troll.

Minno · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Breach tourist

I was born in the breach.

manny254 · May 2016

The best counter is multiple breaches, but there is a huge problem with that idea. That tactic only really works if you outnumber the opponent. The core problem with siege is that it will always favor the larger numbers. Personally I do not want to win a battle because I outnumber the opponent.

frozywozy · May 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

Could you elaborate on how it doesn't make any sense in practice instead of throwing poor arguments and troll attempts? I've done it several times in the past when trying to dethrone.

Opening an additional breach force defenders to spread their forces inside, it also creates a better opening with offensive sieges, it makes it easier to cover the whole courtyard, it prevents enemies from dropping forward camps inside the perimeter and finally, it helps to covers all the entrances and make sure that reinforcements can't make it inside alive.

Anything better to say than "this thread got frozn'd" or "let it go" ?

Zheg · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

Could you elaborate on how it doesn't make any sense in practice instead of throwing poor arguments and troll attempts? I've done it several times in the past when trying to dethrone.

Opening an additional breach force defenders to spread their forces inside, it also creates a better opening with offensive sieges, it makes it easier to cover the whole courtyard, it prevents enemies from dropping forward camps inside the perimeter and finally, it helps to covers all the entrances and make sure that reinforcements can't make it inside alive.

Anything better to say than "this thread got frozn'd" or "let it go" ?

If you are just zerging it down sure, but with the stupid change made to repairing walls and how easy it is for a zerg to close a breach, in literally seconds, its a pointless to try several breaches.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · May 2016

i agree with the title most of all

the post itself i agree with somewhat as well

i would much rather zos come out and say

"we are done balancing for now, deal with it"

I would rather them focus on releasing content at a much much greater pace.

God_flakes · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

Yes, when you're a small group or only one raid trying to open the inner, it doesn't make sense to open multiple doors. But when a keep is heavily defended and multiple teams are trying to take a keep...sometimes making Swiss cheese of a keep is the only tactic that works. It scatters the defenders. However, as in the case of the Chal defense last week, it didn't work for the AD and EP trying to kick DC out. Mostly because we had a whole, whole lot of DC defending. The large scale fights you're talking about are usually dethrone keeps...and well we all know we're at the mercy of that mechanic. It is what it is. I've come to accept it (until it's changed) and I've given to saying "winners never quit and quitters never win". We may have to fight through the lag and load screens and our keyboard rage -but at the end of the fight if we lose we can at least say we gave it all we had.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Frozen is correct about the multi breech tactic . It also makes another problem for the defender that wishes to push out and quickly repair . Battles are fluid situations and this is not always the only solution to heavy defenses but it is in fact one . I don't believe by reading his post he was implying it was the only tactic either .

zyk · May 2016

manny254 wrote: »

The best counter is multiple breaches, but there is a huge problem with that idea. That tactic only really works if you outnumber the opponent. The core problem with siege is that it will always favor the larger numbers. Personally I do not want to win a battle because I outnumber the opponent.

Regardless of the numbers present, more breaches create more offensive options and are more difficult to defend. I also disagree that siege inherently favors the side with greater numbers.

In general, I think players are too preoccupied with numbers in Cyrodiil. RvR isn't supposed to have a primary focus on individual skills. In a game intended to have strategic elements, outnumbering an opponent in one location is a valid strategy. The cost to that should be vulnerability elsewhere.

The problem is that in an AP obsessed metagame like 2.3, no one will leave a large dtick quagmire. There is no incentive to attack an opponent stacked at one location elsewhere because: 1. no one will bother defending, so it will be pvdoor; 2. poor rewards.

The focus of this game needs to be winning objectives and campaigns. Not constantly trying to demonstrate how awesome our individual or group skills are by fighting outnumbered.

Rylana · May 2016

Oil is clearly still far too OP in this meta. Nerfing its ability to stay on the ground and one shot from stealth simply wasnt enough Zenimax. Even the height requirement to prevent it from jumping into keeps and flipping the flags, while having bats up 24/7. Not satisfied

The only way to make oil on par with meatbag is to nerf Oilstreak, Oilcloak, and Oilshields. Also buff Meatbag with instant monster destruction +20 and vapenado 5000.

Additionally, stealth nerfs AGAIN to iceball trebs? We never get any love.

#WrobelsIceballHouse

Minno · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

The only tactic that superceded multi-hole strategy is picking another target. But not viable when trying to take a scroll keep for gate opening, dethrone, or other situations where it's literally the entire server in one place or risk losing your score place.

It comes down to implementation of new objectives to help provide a dynamic pvp experience, IMHO. I'm not sure if others agree, but parallel objective should be there to help dethrone, make fighting outside keep lanes viable, and getting server caps/performance to pre-1.6 era.

Zheg · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

Yes, when you're a small group or only one raid trying to open the inner, it doesn't make sense to open multiple doors. But when a keep is heavily defended and multiple teams are trying to take a keep...sometimes making Swiss cheese of a keep is the only tactic that works. It scatters the defenders. However, as in the case of the Chal defense last week, it didn't work for the AD and EP trying to kick DC out. Mostly because we had a whole, whole lot of DC defending. The large scale fights you're talking about are usually dethrone keeps...and well we all know we're at the mercy of that mechanic. It is what it is. I've come to accept it (until it's changed) and I've given to saying "winners never quit and quitters never win". We may have to fight through the lag and load screens and our keyboard rage -but at the end of the fight if we lose we can at least say we gave it all we had.

Therein lies the problem though. When complaints about siege are brought up, particularly for a single group trying to assault a keep, frozn sweeps in and starts talking about multiple breaches like that's an intelligent answer. The problem is one group against one or more groups plus overtuned siege. How does that one group push in? If the answer is get another group to siege down another inner breach, that's lunacy, and that's the thieves guild patch. I'm talking regular keeps here, not dethrones - so with that as the backdrop, how can one justify this meta, particularly the siege numbers? Bananas I say, b, a n, a, n, a, s, this *** is bananas.

HoloYoitsu · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Anything better to say than "this thread got frozn'd" or "let it go" ?

Let's be honest, the amount of critical thinking you put into your "poke more holes" strategy doesn't really warrant more response than that.

For multiple breaches to be at all meaningful, the attacker needs to outnumber the defenders drastically in order to be able to set up, maintain and defend siege on multiple sides of the keep.
The attacking force is forced to split over a larger distance around the outside of the keep than the defending force is forced to on the inside. The defenders can choose to sally from their walls as a single group to overwhelm and wipe any portion of the fragmented attackers outside, before repairing the breach in seconds and repeating on the next side of the keep. This is how it works when you have even numbers on both sides.
Even when you have multiple breaches, you only go in through one unless you're just dumb.
Putting multiple breaches in a keep doesn't stop defenders from putting FCs, FCs literally only need to be free for 2 seconds for a raid to rez up. The only time defenders can't put down FCs is when they are being zergged to hell.
The times you see contested keeps finally fall after getting multiple breaches in them isn't because multiple breaches were made, that is confusing causality. The keep fell because the attackers finally outnumbered the defenders sooooo much that they got zergged the hell down - that the attackers were able to make and maintain multiple breaches is a sign of how large a zerg they had amassed.

Still waiting on that 30 min video of you solo spamming Bombard in the middle of a raid.

Rylana · May 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Anything better to say than "this thread got frozn'd" or "let it go" ?

Let's be honest, the amount of critical thinking you put into your "poke more holes" strategy doesn't really warrant more response than that.
For multiple breaches to be at all meaningful, the attacker needs to outnumber the defenders drastically in order to be able to set up, maintain and defend siege on multiple sides of the keep.

The attacking force is forced to split over a larger distance around the outside of the keep than the defending force is forced to on the inside. The defenders can choose to sally from their walls as a single group to overwhelm and wipe any portion of the fragmented attackers outside, before repairing the breach in seconds and repeating on the next side of the keep. This is how it works when you have even numbers on both sides.

Even when you have multiple breaches, you only go in through one unless you're just dumb.

Putting multiple breaches in a keep doesn't stop defenders from putting FCs, FCs literally only need to be free for 2 seconds for a raid to rez up. The only time defenders can't put down FCs is when they are being zergged to hell.

The times you see contested keeps finally fall after getting multiple breaches in them isn't because multiple breaches were made, that is confusing causality. The keep fell because the attackers finally outnumbered the defenders sooooo much that they got zergged the hell down - that the attackers were able to make and maintain multiple breaches is a sign of how large a zerg they had amassed.

Still waiting on that 30 min video of you solo spamming Bombard in the middle of a raid.

This.

Last time I defended a guild emperorship (on Haderus a couple months back), over 100 AD and 50 DC showed up vs about 50 or so EP defending. Thats 150vs50, 3-1 odds. Seems legit, to be expected I suppose.

Six outer breaches, all three inners breached, AD surrounding the keep on all sides, DC holding the top, one raid of EP holding the transitus, the other holding the scrollside, combined barely holding the front flag.

Then 100 AD came crashing through the front door. Game, over.

Id add that before the AD showed up, we had held the DC off for over 2 hours, we just couldnt send anyone to backcap anything because we had to keep defending constantly, DC just wasnt going to let up. Could have defended vs just DC all night long, honestly, but the massive superzerg of AD just overwhelmed.

Best part it was actually the DC that swissed the keep, the AD held us unable to do anything but stand to flags and hold multiple inner breaches until DC broke the line and took the top. Good AD farm, to be fair, but insanity at its finest.

God_flakes · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

Yes, when you're a small group or only one raid trying to open the inner, it doesn't make sense to open multiple doors. But when a keep is heavily defended and multiple teams are trying to take a keep...sometimes making Swiss cheese of a keep is the only tactic that works. It scatters the defenders. However, as in the case of the Chal defense last week, it didn't work for the AD and EP trying to kick DC out. Mostly because we had a whole, whole lot of DC defending. The large scale fights you're talking about are usually dethrone keeps...and well we all know we're at the mercy of that mechanic. It is what it is. I've come to accept it (until it's changed) and I've given to saying "winners never quit and quitters never win". We may have to fight through the lag and load screens and our keyboard rage -but at the end of the fight if we lose we can at least say we gave it all we had.

Therein lies the problem though. When complaints about siege are brought up, particularly for a single group trying to assault a keep, frozn sweeps in and starts talking about multiple breaches like that's an intelligent answer. The problem is one group against one or more groups plus overtuned siege. How does that one group push in? If the answer is get another group to siege down another inner breach, that's lunacy, and that's the thieves guild patch. I'm talking regular keeps here, not dethrones - so with that as the backdrop, how can one justify this meta, particularly the siege numbers? Bananas I say, b, a n, a, n, a, s, this *** is bananas.

But when an already overpopulated faction is turtling a keep....what else do you propose? Don't say walk away because that's also not viable. That's what they want you to do. And let me add as a caveat, I don't always light up a keep or blast multiple holes in a keep to take it. Often, I do it just to be just as obnoxious as those who are obnoxiously turtling, and to keep it lit up long enough to satisfy another objective.

God_flakes · May 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Anything better to say than "this thread got frozn'd" or "let it go" ?

Let's be honest, the amount of critical thinking you put into your "poke more holes" strategy doesn't really warrant more response than that.
For multiple breaches to be at all meaningful, the attacker needs to outnumber the defenders drastically in order to be able to set up, maintain and defend siege on multiple sides of the keep.

The attacking force is forced to split over a larger distance around the outside of the keep than the defending force is forced to on the inside. The defenders can choose to sally from their walls as a single group to overwhelm and wipe any portion of the fragmented attackers outside, before repairing the breach in seconds and repeating on the next side of the keep. This is how it works when you have even numbers on both sides.

Even when you have multiple breaches, you only go in through one unless you're just dumb.

Putting multiple breaches in a keep doesn't stop defenders from putting FCs, FCs literally only need to be free for 2 seconds for a raid to rez up. The only time defenders can't put down FCs is when they are being zergged to hell.

The times you see contested keeps finally fall after getting multiple breaches in them isn't because multiple breaches were made, that is confusing causality. The keep fell because the attackers finally outnumbered the defenders sooooo much that they got zergged the hell down - that the attackers were able to make and maintain multiple breaches is a sign of how large a zerg they had amassed.

Still waiting on that 30 min video of you solo spamming Bombard in the middle of a raid.

Wow this is a whooooooooole lotta opining about something as simple as Swiss cheesing!! TLDR

FROZY, I am with you in this one. And maybe it's cuz we are OG. I have employed the multiple breach tactic since beta.

zyk · May 2016

If all things are equal between the offensive and defensive forces -- numbers, ability, organization, etc -- the scenario inherently favors the defenders. Obviously. It's supposed to. That's the purpose of keeps: to provide a defensive advantage.

When siege was useless because of the potency of trivial purge/barrier/rapids, the natural advantage of defenders was almost completely negated.

I recognize ESO RvR remains nearly completely broken, but from my POV the invinciblob meta was far worse than what we have today. I don't know for a fact that it is because of siege, but I observe far fewer blobs in Cyrodiil than I have since I began playing.

It's nice to fight a top group and actually see them spread out and rely on single target damage. I wish all large groups would better adapt in this way rather than adapt to continue playing the way they always have.

Zheg · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

10/10

Sad thing is some players truly enjoy clicking left button to make AP.

See : Don't take my siege weapon post on page 1.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263370/would-you-support-the-idea-of-making-siege-weapons-restricted-to-personal-use/p1

I mean - people all wigged out about their cold fires honestly believing it is their best method to earn AP sadden me so.

I don't get all the anti-siege elitism. Ap is Ap. Stop with the melodrama. It actually does take some skill to know where to position and aiming and making sure you're actually putting pain on groups of players who are blobbing, especially those who are moving fast. Siege is literally you're ONLY and best line of defense during an invasion. Sieging choke points can be very effective and lucrative at gates and bridges. It is just one more tool in the arsenal of warfare. Make the most of it. If getting owned by siege makes you THAT mad, maybe don't play a fantasy game based on medieval warfare?

Take any good pvper that you know and respect and have them fight and use their skills. Now take a level 20 and put him/her on a siege hitting the inner breach, and doing nothing but left clicking. There is a very good chance that the level 20 will make similar or greater amounts of AP than the really good pvper that not only has to employ their skill to get kills, but maneuver and stay alive in a hostile location. The level 20 is in minimal to no danger safely meatbagging from the outer 2nd floor battlement the entire fight.

That's just one reason for the anti siege elitism. The overtuned damage numbers, the fact that larger numbers are able to make better use of siege in the majority of engagements because they have the numbers to spare, the fact that we have these overtuned siege numbers in a meta of permaroots/snares and damage from other sources already being high, are other reasons.

Open an additional breach, use siege shield on the breach and everytime you stay stationary for more than a few seconds, move somewhere else on the map and force their defenses to spread to that new location, etc.

If you would think further than running in a tight ball sometimes.. Keeps are meant to be hard to not say impossible to take if well defended and if all you do is trying to run inside a single breach and win, well i'm sorry it's not how it works.

How many players do you have assigned on Siege Shield ?
How many times have you ordered your troups to get an additional breach down?
How many times have you ordered your troups to move away from a location with too much people?

What I read in the forums from you is "We are the ultimate zerg breaker. When we arrive and wipe the zerg, we save the day and the lag". What you do in reality is making it worse for the time being and getting aps.

The additional breach tactic really just doesn't make sense in practice man, just let it go.

False. Dummy breaches work brilliantly. Occupy the potatoes while you focus the real breach.

Let me clarify. Multiple breaches, particularly on the inner, don't work for a single group. I know you've seen how quickly walls get repaired now. I know you're smart enough to understand why it's dumb to send even one, much less multiple people to the other side of the inner to siege from there too.

These tactics work fine when you have multiple raids, or multiple guilds coordinating. But if the meta promotes, or requires multiple groups for objective play, anyone defending that is bananas imo. The tactics frozn repeats over and over only work when backed up by multiple raids of pact militia and the occasional invictus or haxus group. You should not have to play around poorly implemented mechanics by adopting approaches requiring multiple raids, and if you are, those mechanics are problems that need to be addressed.

Though everyone zergs, some of my favorite fights of late have been pushing roebeck with fantasia defending. Our raid against theirs, plus some scattered pugs on both sides. Not our raid, plus saramis, plus guard, plus pugs, against haxus, 2 raids of pact militia, an emp, a small invictus group, red pugs, a yellow group sitting on siege, all fighting over a single keep in terribad ping. "Multiple breaches" means multiple groups and atrocious performance, denying that is silly.

Yes, when you're a small group or only one raid trying to open the inner, it doesn't make sense to open multiple doors. But when a keep is heavily defended and multiple teams are trying to take a keep...sometimes making Swiss cheese of a keep is the only tactic that works. It scatters the defenders. However, as in the case of the Chal defense last week, it didn't work for the AD and EP trying to kick DC out. Mostly because we had a whole, whole lot of DC defending. The large scale fights you're talking about are usually dethrone keeps...and well we all know we're at the mercy of that mechanic. It is what it is. I've come to accept it (until it's changed) and I've given to saying "winners never quit and quitters never win". We may have to fight through the lag and load screens and our keyboard rage -but at the end of the fight if we lose we can at least say we gave it all we had.

Therein lies the problem though. When complaints about siege are brought up, particularly for a single group trying to assault a keep, frozn sweeps in and starts talking about multiple breaches like that's an intelligent answer. The problem is one group against one or more groups plus overtuned siege. How does that one group push in? If the answer is get another group to siege down another inner breach, that's lunacy, and that's the thieves guild patch. I'm talking regular keeps here, not dethrones - so with that as the backdrop, how can one justify this meta, particularly the siege numbers? Bananas I say, b, a n, a, n, a, s, this *** is bananas.

But when an already overpopulated faction is turtling a keep....what else do you propose? Don't say walk away because that's also not viable. That's what they want you to do. And let me add as a caveat, I don't always light up a keep or blast multiple holes in a keep to take it. Often, I do it just to be just as obnoxious as those who are obnoxiously turtling, and to keep it lit up long enough to satisfy another objective.

We're talking about two issues.

One is siege being overtuned. The counter argument for maintaining the status quo is that you should open multiple breaches rather than address the issues with siege. Multiple breaches is fine for dethrones, but in literally every other keep, a system that forces you to bring multiple groups is a broken system. You don't seem to be disagreeing here, so correct me if that's not true.

The second issue is dethrones and an entire alliance turtling a keep. Siege should NOT be an answer. The simple answer is require two keeps to be held to maintain emperor, or require emp faction to maintain both or one of their scrolls. Done.

Now why are we still talking like siege should continue to have silly damage numbers?

zyk · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Now why are we still talking like siege should continue to have silly damage numbers?

Because not everyone agrees those numbers are silly nor are our styles of play all equally impacted by them. Siege is not, by far, the determining factor of success in the majority of conflicts I participate in. It does not stop bad players from being rolled over by good ones, even when outnumbered.

I think it's possible VE collectively has more hate towards siege than the rest of the players combined.

Minalan · May 2016

Buff fire trebs, and nerf all the FOTM ballista scrubs!

Zheg · May 2016

zyk wrote: »

If all things are equal between the offensive and defensive forces -- numbers, ability, organization, etc -- the scenario inherently favors the defenders. Obviously. It's supposed to. That's the purpose of keeps: to provide a defensive advantage.

When siege was useless because of the potency of trivial purge/barrier/rapids, the natural advantage of defenders was almost completely negated.

I recognize ESO RvR remains nearly completely broken, but from my POV the invinciblob meta was far worse than what we have today. I don't know for a fact that it is because of siege, but I observe far fewer blobs in Cyrodiil than I have since I began playing.

It's nice to fight a top group and actually see them spread out and rely on single target damage. I wish all large groups would better adapt in this way rather than adapt to continue playing the way they always have.

Not a single change in this patch has forced groups to spread out. Not. One. We can disagree on the causes, but it's irrefutable that this patch has resulted in significantly larger numbers of bodies at fights, and fewer keeps being contested at any one time (on average) as they all flock to one or maybe two objectives.

As for why you don't see as many groups, that's because they left. Botched managing by ZOS, a poorly coded and performing game, and the availability of alternatives are the reasons why.

Minno · May 2016

zyk wrote: »

If all things are equal between the offensive and defensive forces -- numbers, ability, organization, etc -- the scenario inherently favors the defenders. Obviously. It's supposed to. That's the purpose of keeps: to provide a defensive advantage.

When siege was useless because of the potency of trivial purge/barrier/rapids, the natural advantage of defenders was almost completely negated.

I recognize ESO RvR remains nearly completely broken, but from my POV the invinciblob meta was far worse than what we have today. I don't know for a fact that it is because of siege, but I observe far fewer blobs in Cyrodiil than I have since I began playing.

It's nice to fight a top group and actually see them spread out and rely on single target damage. I wish all large groups would better adapt in this way rather than adapt to continue playing the way they always have.

As a deciple of @Synozeer and the rest of the BS brethren, we feed off of the blobs.