Nifty2g wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.


Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

We'll see how you will be happy when you get from magblade:
Piercing mark(3 negative effects) + Entropy + Crippling grasp spam = 3 cleanses until you have an ability to start turning around.

I've already learned that you happy with everything, maybe you'll just make a post about that?
PS: Something tells me that your next vid will be about stamblade.

sounds like l2p
time to unlock purge

Purifying ritual is better than purge in everyway.

driosketch wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.


Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

We'll see how you will be happy when you get from magblade:
Piercing mark(3 negative effects) + Entropy + Crippling grasp spam = 3 cleanses until you have an ability to start turning around.

I've already learned that you happy with everything, maybe you'll just make a post about that?
PS: Something tells me that your next vid will be about stamblade.

sounds like l2p
time to unlock purge

Purifying ritual is better than purge in everyway.

In a group setting Purge is better actually as it doesn't require a synergy to remove ally debuffs.

Cinbri wrote: »

I don't get when people saying things like "NBs cant purge now with cloak and DKs useless coz templar can purge 5 dots in 1 button", seems those people forgetting that cloak one of the best mitigation ability in game that can mitigate 100% of damage in 1 button and, wow, dk can press wings to reflect 4 projectiles and mitigate number of damage that templar can only dream about. So templars who left only with healing and purge, without a single defensive ability that really works and not nerfed (quick poll: name templar defense ability that left unnerfed) must now eat purge nerf so only thing left for them in PvP is stand still in debuffs and spam BoL till he dies?
Healing and purging are only things that left of templar defense, people who don't understand this and wanna more templar nerfs are obviously biased and just don't wanna see templar as viable class, so for me personally their opinion is irrelevant.

It's stupid. Every patch they buff our dmg and nerf our defensive utility. I didn't pick Templar to be a glass cannon, I picked templar for medium dmg and awesome defensive utility. And awesome golden spear animations.

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.

Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

Nightwolfmenace wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.


Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

We'll see how you will be happy when you get from magblade:
Piercing mark(3 negative effects) + Entropy + Crippling grasp spam = 3 cleanses until you have an ability to start turning around.

I've already learned that you happy with everything, maybe you'll just make a post about that?
PS: Something tells me that your next vid will be about stamblade.

It's annoying - sure.

But look at it from the opponent's perspective: let's say a magicka DK - his whole build revolves around DoTs, he spends 5-10 seconds setting up that sustained DPS to take you down and then templar presses one button & it's all gone.
That's not fun either.


That is why I'd rather have the new Ritual stay as it is, but introduce some kind of priorization system for roots and other high-impact effects you want to get rid of asap.

Win-win, right?

As someone who has played both Magicka and Stam Templar i agree.. this change was needed... i mean hell your reasons stated above is the same reason Dark Cloak no longers cleanses 4 dots with one click.

You can't compare Ritual to cloak. Cloak gives you LOS right in front of peoples faces, it improves your damage because your in stealth, negates DOT damage for a time, and it passive buffs other skills such as SA and Double take, etc. It's amazing.

BOL heals, some times for more, some times for less. It provides no buff to damage or other skills, no reduction to damage taken, no regen/cost reduction, etc. It's great.

They're very different. 1 is a defensive/offensive buff with damage reduction, etc. The other is just a heal. Ritual is not as good as BOL or anywhere near as good as Cloak.

Ritual is crap for heals, especially with Battle Spirit blanket nerfing heals, rather then ZOS balancing skills. It's mostly used to cleanse and for major mending (especially since Jabs was nerfed due to the mending buff with TG). So it will snare a tiny bit. DK have a snare on ever Ardent flame via passives. I would only slot the DOT in PVE, and then mostly just when healing or tanking. As DPS Blockade, Elemental Ring, Shards, etc. will be better.

Consider the total lack of buffs and debuffs with in the Templar class (2 skills, 1 magick, 1 stam) ... we're the anti-debuff class. If Mark Target can have 3 debuffs in 1 then Templar Cleanse (with lack of mobility) should do 3-5 with out complaint. We not only have debuffs cast on us most of the time. We have damage and CC done as well. So for every Cleanse we still need a heal or CC break, etc .... then we need to do damage. Our strongest damage skills all have cast times which increase our GCD and limit our light-heavy attack weaving, unless we cancel them, which means we spent the cost to get less damage. You can block cancel. We have to time it right and worry about being interrupted ... That's not fair.

Consider Templar also has no passive buff to max stat, regen, spell damage, etc. I don't think that's fair. Cleanse almost makes up for that. We have weak utility in our skills when compared to many others.

It's also not fair that Templare doesn't have Brutality in class like all others. We stuck with a 2-hander or DW ... what if i want S&B w/ Bow? All other classes have other options. We're stuck.

The templar is a different animal then the rest. Fair doesn't really fit in the argument.

tinythinker wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

No-one uses Crappy Extended ritual, place your useless idea of damaging once per 2 seconds "Ritual of Retribution" in that morph.

So glad to see that the maturity level on the forums is still so high...

His delivery is bad, but he is right. It makes no sense to delete a morph that every Templar likes and leave the one that almost no Templar likes.

There are plenty of people who get it right without the bad delivery, so, I don't endorse or support the rudeness of any message. It's not like it takes more time to write a message without the insulting tone. And anyway he gets something wrong, notably that it wasn't Wrobel's idea, it was player-based.

Moreover, there are already plenty of constructive things that have already been said on the topic in the new Official Templar Feedback thread, including asking for Extended to be the one changed and give many ways to make the new morph work better. These include having Retribution burn hotter (even if it means costing more magicka or losing the HoT), having it purge each time an enemy takes damage, making it targetable like Caltrops rather than being centered on the caster, and so on. None of those ideas had to be presented like the writer just dropped their lollipop, and some were thought of and mentioned independently more than once in the same thread, suggesting that they might be worth considering.

The burn hotter/have extra purge on damage would be nice for a PvE version, especially for Templar tanks and healers, even more so if it could be targeted like Caltrops. Purifying could be restored and left as the primary PvP version. It wouldn't be too hard to make these changes, and Extended would be replaced with something many players would find useful. And sharing that didn't require any hostility toward the devs

I concur.

Essiaga wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.

Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

Nightwolfmenace wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, cleansing 5 negative effects with one button press was kind of silly in 1v1 scenarios - so I'm happy it's more balanced there now. Your one instant cast button press taking one global cooldown was negating 4-5 button presses of opponent & multiple seconds of time spent applying them.

Also, one of the biggest lacks of a templar is the damage. It's good but... it's not enough vs certain builds. This morph will help with that a lot.


Of course, if you play a melee magicka build with Sweeps - getting root spammed becomes a much bigger problem with this change. Not in 1v1, but when you are outnumbered. In 1v1 you match opponent's one button press with a button press of your own - so I don't see why you'd have problems against anyone there. In 1vX... root spam is pure annoyance for a melee build.

We'll see how you will be happy when you get from magblade:
Piercing mark(3 negative effects) + Entropy + Crippling grasp spam = 3 cleanses until you have an ability to start turning around.

I've already learned that you happy with everything, maybe you'll just make a post about that?
PS: Something tells me that your next vid will be about stamblade.

It's annoying - sure.

But look at it from the opponent's perspective: let's say a magicka DK - his whole build revolves around DoTs, he spends 5-10 seconds setting up that sustained DPS to take you down and then templar presses one button & it's all gone.
That's not fun either.


That is why I'd rather have the new Ritual stay as it is, but introduce some kind of priorization system for roots and other high-impact effects you want to get rid of asap.

Win-win, right?

As someone who has played both Magicka and Stam Templar i agree.. this change was needed... i mean hell your reasons stated above is the same reason Dark Cloak no longers cleanses 4 dots with one click.

You can't compare Ritual to cloak. Cloak gives you LOS right in front of peoples faces, it improves your damage because your in stealth, negates DOT damage for a time, and it passive buffs other skills such as SA and Double take, etc. It's amazing.

BOL heals, some times for more, some times for less. It provides no buff to damage or other skills, no reduction to damage taken, no regen/cost reduction, etc. It's great.

They're very different. 1 is a defensive/offensive buff with damage reduction, etc. The other is just a heal. Ritual is not as good as BOL or anywhere near as good as Cloak.

Ritual is crap for heals, especially with Battle Spirit blanket nerfing heals, rather then ZOS balancing skills. It's mostly used to cleanse and for major mending (especially since Jabs was nerfed due to the mending buff with TG). So it will snare a tiny bit. DK have a snare on ever Ardent flame via passives. I would only slot the DOT in PVE, and then mostly just when healing or tanking. As DPS Blockade, Elemental Ring, Shards, etc. will be better.

Consider the total lack of buffs and debuffs with in the Templar class (2 skills, 1 magick, 1 stam) ... we're the anti-debuff class. If Mark Target can have 3 debuffs in 1 then Templar Cleanse (with lack of mobility) should do 3-5 with out complaint. We not only have debuffs cast on us most of the time. We have damage and CC done as well. So for every Cleanse we still need a heal or CC break, etc .... then we need to do damage. Our strongest damage skills all have cast times which increase our GCD and limit our light-heavy attack weaving, unless we cancel them, which means we spent the cost to get less damage. You can block cancel. We have to time it right and worry about being interrupted ... That's not fair.

Consider Templar also has no passive buff to max stat, regen, spell damage, etc. I don't think that's fair. Cleanse almost makes up for that. We have weak utility in our skills when compared to many others.

It's also not fair that Templare doesn't have Brutality in class like all others. We stuck with a 2-hander or DW ... what if i want S&B w/ Bow? All other classes have other options. We're stuck.

The templar is a different animal then the rest. Fair doesn't really fit in the argument.

Its also a shadow skill so (depending on how much heavy armor you get the buff can last long) gives you a major armor/sr buff.

perhaps ZOS wanted debuffs and negative effects to be an actual useful and scary thing and not have single Templar spam "nope" in groups?

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I suggested in the official thread that they keep the 2 cleanses on cast and then cleanse an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds. This way, we can't spam wipe all the bad stuff but the Templar house becomes like a self-cleaning oven. I don't even care about the crappy damage they added especially because I'm a Stamplar.

This would give the spell more utility with less spam. I hate fighting other Templars because in an instant they undo my Poison Injection, axe bleed, snare, Minor Defile, all of it. It basically turns into a jab war, which Mageplars always win due to their superior morph.

You hate that they do they're only one left defense skill? Use caltrops as snare, stop exploiting axe bleed, add knockdown uppercut morph to your panel if you start to spam jabs and rely on cleancable dots in fight with magplar while you in stamina - it's definitely L2P issue.

Your suggestion is viable for stamina perspective, but it will not work for magicka templar who cannot roll dodge 4 seconds in a raw.

@Sugaroverdose I have no idea what the point of your above response is. I was offering a personal anecdote about the power of 5 cleanses in one button press and a legitimate concept for balancing the ability. I'm not sure why you felt the need to jump in and teach me how to fight magplars.

Purifying Ritual is not, as you say, the Templar's "only one left defense skill," and I don't plan on ever running your Caltrops and Wrecking Blow cheese spam. Also, axe bleed is not an exploit, they fixed it with the last major update and is a valuable part of my build.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be counters to DoT builds like mine. However, I think ZOS is finally starting to get a handle on class balance and they are getting a lot of things right this update in my opinion. They are swinging the nerf bat a little too hard with Purifying Ritual, we all agree, but I also agree with them that 5 instant cleanses is over the top (and let me remind you that I main a Templar so I wear a flame-proof suit).

DDuke wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Consider Templar also has no passive buff to max stat, regen, spell damage, etc. I don't think that's fair. Cleanse almost makes up for that. We have weak utility in our skills when compared to many others.

It's also not fair that Templare doesn't have Brutality in class like all others. We stuck with a 2-hander or DW ... what if i want S&B w/ Bow? All other classes have other options. We're stuck.

The templar is a different animal then the rest. Fair doesn't really fit in the argument.

I'll have to correct you there :P

Templars get +5% spell damage from passives and around 1k(!!!) worth of "magicka regen" from using Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead (with heavy armor, with light armor you get less regen from Honor the Dead). Undoubtedly the best magicka sustain of all classes.


As for Major Brutality, that is a problem I agree. However, it's also a problem for Nightblades, because Power Extraction is absolute garbage & you'll never ever want it on your skill bar.

I'd say it's a problem for stam DKs as well, because Igneous Weapons is also garbage.

I mean, if you compare...

Igneous Weapons - Major Brutality for 30s, nothing else
Rally/Forward Momentum - Major Brutality & small heal over time for 33s + either a very good burst heal or 8s snare/immobilize immunity


Is that even a choice to make?

Alas, I think all this belongs to another thread.

You're talking about spell damage from casting a Dawns Wrath ability. I honestly didn't think of it because it requires a cast. bit still when comparing passives it doesn't come out even or fair.

I pointed out passives, meaning you don't have to cast (even a specific) skill and stand still and use this gear with that other skill ... You're talking about skill selection which require slotting, GCD, cost, position, and gea,r and the casting of another skill and requires sacrifice ... then see your comments on Power Extraction.

Rune focus is 120 magicka every 0.5 seconds ... that 480 regen ... for 8 seconds, unless you stand in or return to it (then 16 sec max). It also has a cost which eats in to the first 7-8 ticks (almost half the 8 secs).

HtD is recouping the cost of itself and NOT boosting Regen. Its a return of 15% x 4 ticks (every 2 sec for 8sec) is 60% of the cost. It's not really regen. It's specific to that skill which means i have to pick that morph, slot it, and use it on a target that is below 75% to recoop cost ... then hopefully that target is me.

HtD and BOL are not reliably skills. It could heal you or some random 'ally.' Name another class defining skill that doesn't guarantee the caster a benefit? Reflect, Cloak, Ward ... nope. All on the caster. We have to hope we deserve our own heal and the alternatives are Resto abilities. The one thing that everyone points out when justifying nerfs to the templar class and isn't even a sure thing and reducing it from 3 people healed to 2 means you're less likely to get your own damn heal. It leaves the Templar 'self heal' up to chance. Definitely not fair.

Power Extraction "stink" ... Start a tread to ask for a buff. I'll post to support you there, but again its an option. NB also gets Berserk buff in class on a skill that hits like truck for completing light attacks. It's practically free damage! NB Skills are 3 layered and brutal. Templars are maybe 2, often over lap (we have 3 stuns, no roots), and often situation (It would be nice to have regen but my rune is waaaay over there, or stam but there's no corpses).

If you want to point out duration of buffs our major ward/resolve are substantially less then every class at 8 sec unless you recast or run back to the circle. Then its 16 secs max which again is STILL less. So were using up GCD for heals we don't get (HtD/BOL), buffs we can't stand still for (Rune Focus), etc.

Also Rally on my stamplar out heals Ritual on my magplar. And I'd take Rally's damage buff and heal that moves with me over the stationary slow ticking DOT and HoT anyday. I've already made many post about the superiority of the 2-handed skill line (though prior to DB) and the lack of or uselessness of stam morphs in class skills (specifically Templar and Sorc as Heals and Ward scale off magicka and strangely enough Battle Spirit nerfs boths shields and heals).

I'm just pointing out what's not fair. Homogenization usually ends with the Templar. All that was cool about the class it gone or nerfed. If they want to nerf Ritual then we need a better buff then a slow weak DOT. Again, we Cleanse because we don't have buffs and debuffs and roots (definitly not AOE roots) and even the mobility (though DK is weak) that other classes do.

Our cleanse doesn't take your buffs away. It just allows us to shrug your debuffs (and DOTS) off a little easier, which makes us a lot tougher ... where removing them makes us a lot weaker since every other mitigation skill we have is gone or nerfed.