DDuke wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

I have multiple clips of me tanking 5-10 people for minutes without permablock, I'll make sure to add a few of those to the build video

Even once had 5 people spending half an hour trying to kill me (I know that, because Shadowplay with 20min recording limit only caught half of it ) - all without any kind of permablocking (or much blocking in general).

You obviously play against scrubs or dont get affected by the broken CC much. Blocking stops ALL CC (except fear). You also have your templar set up to heal more than mine - im a pure tank (with off heals). Yes, I could change my set up to fit in with the changes to become more of a healer, but then, why should I?

Its a nerf to pure tanking and you know it.

There's no such thing as "pure tanking". There's just tanking - how you do it doesn't matter (whether you hold block or mitigate & outheal damage).

When you have atleast 28k health, 50%++ spell resistance, 40% physical resistance, 28.3% critical resistance & 18/14% reduced physical & spell damage from CPs, you can take CCs & sit for the whole duration of them without dying and then heal up with one or two button clicks. Of course there are times when you get CC'd at low health and you die, but such is life

Tanking is about mitigating damage & surviving it, not necessarily about taping down the right mouse button & being an useless sponge in the battlefield.

In fairness here, you're suggesting that the Magplar build is better. In that respect I agree with you, but I understand his sentiment that it is unfortunate that the 'Warrior' spec gets its teeth kicked in here. I see where he's coming from and I mirror his concerns, although to be honest I was planning to switch over to a build design similar to what you are using, in large part because I know it works. The only reason I haven't switched in the last few months is that I'm enjoying the TG content, and trying to mop up the last couple of achievements I need, and to do that well a big stamina pool is more effective. I'm also having fun with my Stamplar even though I feel my Stamblade is better at the role. You are right though, that vale tudo applies here 'Whatever works'. Currently the heal oriented build is what works best in this scenario.

Oh, I'm fairly sure you can make heavy armor stamplar work as well

You'll just have to base your defense on mitigation rather than roll dodges (that's the main difference).


It's kind of why I'm still commenting here - we won't ever find out about all these different, fun builds if people stay fixated on the idea that tanking=permablocking.



All the change in this patch means is that people have to hold block for 20% shorter duration - and then you'll get your stamina back way faster than before thanks to the changed Constitution passive.

Necesseraph wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

" I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank. "

@Wrobel , That is the most educated sentence of this thread.

That's basically it. I was hoping for Sturdy to improve my effectiveness and help me manage my resources better. Instead it is mandatory on every piece just to tank like I did last patch. Which means no infused and no divines.

One thing I would like to see is choices in passives. For example: We can have Wrath or Bracing, Like a morph. Damage people are happy, mitigation people are happy. Everyone wins

That sounds like what the game actually needs to do. There are too many problems introduced when trying to balance the pve and pvp content. The developers continue working a lot attempting to keep things balanced in both areas, but honestly that is almost impossible to get correct.
Additions could be made to say that certain passives only work in Cyrodiil or only work outside of Cyrodiil, and the same on certain abilities.
Additionally, as you pointed out, if players could choose passive morphs as well that would provide more incentive to play however you want to and provide more interesting gameplay and the possibility better differentiate the roles of tank, damage dealer, and healer.

The concept may actually work, though a lot more thought would need to go into examining the main problems in pvp and pve and finding a way to separate the problems and correct them in such a way that would be easy for the majority of players to understand and adapt around. As for the cost, yes 28K gold is a lot, on the other hand if you don't want to pay that gold, it really doesn't take long to get a new character up to lvl 50 if you care that much about having the perfect build you probably have the time to create different characters focused on either pve or pvp.

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Necesseraph wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

" I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank. "

@Wrobel , That is the most educated sentence of this thread.

That's basically it. I was hoping for Sturdy to improve my effectiveness and help me manage my resources better. Instead it is mandatory on every piece just to tank like I did last patch. Which means no infused and no divines.

One thing I would like to see is choices in passives. For example: We can have Wrath or Bracing, Like a morph. Damage people are happy, mitigation people are happy. Everyone wins

That sounds like what the game actually needs to do. There are too many problems introduced when trying to balance the pve and pvp content. The developers continue working a lot attempting to keep things balanced in both areas, but honestly that is almost impossible to get correct.
Additions could be made to say that certain passives only work in Cyrodiil or only work outside of Cyrodiil, and the same on certain abilities.
Additionally, as you pointed out, if players could choose passive morphs as well that would provide more incentive to play however you want to and provide more interesting gameplay and the possibility better differentiate the roles of tank, damage dealer, and healer.

The concept may actually work, though a lot more thought would need to go into examining the main problems in pvp and pve and finding a way to separate the problems and correct them in such a way that would be easy for the majority of players to understand and adapt around. As for the cost, yes 28K gold is a lot, on the other hand if you don't want to pay that gold, it really doesn't take long to get a new character up to lvl 50 if you care that much about having the perfect build you probably have the time to create different characters focused on either pve or pvp.

Good point, I forgot that leveling alts will be easier.

I mostly want to level my main character in Alliance War for more skill points so that can't be done with a different too, but still good point.

Yeah, morph cost would have to be considered. This is how I see this working.

Example:

Passive X increases damage mitigation by 5%. That's 1 skill point
Passive X1: increase damage mitigation by 5% and increase weapon damage on hit by X. 1 more Skill point OR
Passive X2: increase damage mitigation by 5% and decrease block cost by 20%. 1 more skill point

No need for more skill points, we put 2 skill points in each passive anyway.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Necesseraph wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

" I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank. "

@Wrobel , That is the most educated sentence of this thread.

That's basically it. I was hoping for Sturdy to improve my effectiveness and help me manage my resources better. Instead it is mandatory on every piece just to tank like I did last patch. Which means no infused and no divines.

One thing I would like to see is choices in passives. For example: We can have Wrath or Bracing, Like a morph. Damage people are happy, mitigation people are happy. Everyone wins

That sounds like what the game actually needs to do. There are too many problems introduced when trying to balance the pve and pvp content. The developers continue working a lot attempting to keep things balanced in both areas, but honestly that is almost impossible to get correct.
Additions could be made to say that certain passives only work in Cyrodiil or only work outside of Cyrodiil, and the same on certain abilities.
Additionally, as you pointed out, if players could choose passive morphs as well that would provide more incentive to play however you want to and provide more interesting gameplay and the possibility better differentiate the roles of tank, damage dealer, and healer.

The concept may actually work, though a lot more thought would need to go into examining the main problems in pvp and pve and finding a way to separate the problems and correct them in such a way that would be easy for the majority of players to understand and adapt around. As for the cost, yes 28K gold is a lot, on the other hand if you don't want to pay that gold, it really doesn't take long to get a new character up to lvl 50 if you care that much about having the perfect build you probably have the time to create different characters focused on either pve or pvp.

Good point, I forgot that leveling alts will be easier.

I mostly want to level my main character in Alliance War for more skill points so that can't be done with a different too, but still good point.

Yeah, morph cost would have to be considered. This is how I see this working.

Example:

Passive X increases damage mitigation by 5%. That's 1 skill point
Passive X1: increase damage mitigation by 5% and increase weapon damage on hit by X. 1 more Skill point OR
Passive X2: increase damage mitigation by 5% and decrease block cost by 20%. 1 more skill point

No need for more skill points, we put 2 skill points in each passive anyway.

@ZOS_RichLambert ,
@Wrobel
@ZOS_Finn

This is one of the best ideas on the forums in ages.

Armitas wrote: »

laced wrote: »

All this talkabout trials is great, but until you get attacked by a swarm of people in pvp you dont understand how awful this change really is. Not only will I lose my stamina much quicker due to bracing being scrapped and cost of blocking being increased, but I will no longer have my impen traits on my armor due to having to replace them with sturdy, meaning i will take more damage due to crits, and run out of stamina faster.

Although PvE and PvP are both very important to me PvP will always be my primary love and is my first concern over this change. I expect the same thing to occur for me.
________________
If people don't know what a tanking role is in PvP I will explain it. PvP tanking is not walking around holding block while casting the occasional skill, that is leaching. You don't draw aggro by permablocking. PvP tanking means being the first person to jump into an enemy raid to draw their fire, debuff (maim)them, CC, threaten and harass their weak and their healers so that the rest of the raid can safely enter without being nuked at the front. You have to build your threat manually. At least in my case I also provide a forward heal point for the rest of the raid through blessing of restoration and igneous mending. I don't permablock but I do block for short periods of time to catch up to the damage I am taking and keep from dying to radiant destruction which is painted on me 100% of the time.

PvP tanking does play an important role if used with the rest of your faction in mind. Without it you have these pew pew stand offs where no one wants to push because as soon as they become noticeable in the herd they are targeted and killed. So they sit on either side killing the random person and rezing at a tent. The only way it ends is either a surprise ball flank or a PvP tank goes in and draws the fire long enough for their faction to realize and make the push.

Part of succeeding in that role is being able to block for short periods of time to heal back up and still have enough stamina to break free from the CC that will occur every 5 seconds. PvP raids don't hit like raid mobs, they animation cancel and they use rotations. You will take far more hits per second than a PvE raid. Without that heavy armor block reduction your stamina will get nuked at once the moment you block leaving you without enough stamina to break CC. If you can't break CC you can't heal and you die. Of course you could add the block reduction, but not without losing mitigation or crit defense. To successfully PvP tank you need to live for at least 15 seconds in the middle of a raid on your own. That is about how long it takes for a guild to notice the opening and charge, or the scattered pugs to realize they can push.

I can last for 15-20 seconds on average in the middle of an enemy raid without permablocking now, but without that bracing passive I don't expect to last longer than 10 seconds to any competent raid because periodic blocking is essential to staying on top of the damage you are taking. It is a delicate balance between doing enough damage to be identified as a threat and living long enough to get your faction in safely. I feel that balance is seriously hindered by decoupling blocking from heavy armor. I can survive this with the blocking reduction trait, but it shouldn't be this way. I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank.

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Necesseraph wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

" I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank. "

@Wrobel , That is the most educated sentence of this thread.

That's basically it. I was hoping for Sturdy to improve my effectiveness and help me manage my resources better. Instead it is mandatory on every piece just to tank like I did last patch. Which means no infused and no divines.

One thing I would like to see is choices in passives. For example: We can have Wrath or Bracing, Like a morph. Damage people are happy, mitigation people are happy. Everyone wins

That sounds like what the game actually needs to do. There are too many problems introduced when trying to balance the pve and pvp content. The developers continue working a lot attempting to keep things balanced in both areas, but honestly that is almost impossible to get correct.
Additions could be made to say that certain passives only work in Cyrodiil or only work outside of Cyrodiil, and the same on certain abilities.
Additionally, as you pointed out, if players could choose passive morphs as well that would provide more incentive to play however you want to and provide more interesting gameplay and the possibility better differentiate the roles of tank, damage dealer, and healer.

The concept may actually work, though a lot more thought would need to go into examining the main problems in pvp and pve and finding a way to separate the problems and correct them in such a way that would be easy for the majority of players to understand and adapt around. As for the cost, yes 28K gold is a lot, on the other hand if you don't want to pay that gold, it really doesn't take long to get a new character up to lvl 50 if you care that much about having the perfect build you probably have the time to create different characters focused on either pve or pvp.

Good point, I forgot that leveling alts will be easier.

I mostly want to level my main character in Alliance War for more skill points so that can't be done with a different too, but still good point.

Yeah, morph cost would have to be considered. This is how I see this working.

Example:

Passive X increases damage mitigation by 5%. That's 1 skill point
Passive X1: increase damage mitigation by 5% and increase weapon damage on hit by X. 1 more Skill point OR
Passive X2: increase damage mitigation by 5% and decrease block cost by 20%. 1 more skill point

No need for more skill points, we put 2 skill points in each passive anyway.

Weesacs wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

laced wrote: »

All this talkabout trials is great, but until you get attacked by a swarm of people in pvp you dont understand how awful this change really is. Not only will I lose my stamina much quicker due to bracing being scrapped and cost of blocking being increased, but I will no longer have my impen traits on my armor due to having to replace them with sturdy, meaning i will take more damage due to crits, and run out of stamina faster.

Although PvE and PvP are both very important to me PvP will always be my primary love and is my first concern over this change. I expect the same thing to occur for me.
________________
If people don't know what a tanking role is in PvP I will explain it. PvP tanking is not walking around holding block while casting the occasional skill, that is leaching. You don't draw aggro by permablocking. PvP tanking means being the first person to jump into an enemy raid to draw their fire, debuff (maim)them, CC, threaten and harass their weak and their healers so that the rest of the raid can safely enter without being nuked at the front. You have to build your threat manually. At least in my case I also provide a forward heal point for the rest of the raid through blessing of restoration and igneous mending. I don't permablock but I do block for short periods of time to catch up to the damage I am taking and keep from dying to radiant destruction which is painted on me 100% of the time.

PvP tanking does play an important role if used with the rest of your faction in mind. Without it you have these pew pew stand offs where no one wants to push because as soon as they become noticeable in the herd they are targeted and killed. So they sit on either side killing the random person and rezing at a tent. The only way it ends is either a surprise ball flank or a PvP tank goes in and draws the fire long enough for their faction to realize and make the push.

Part of succeeding in that role is being able to block for short periods of time to heal back up and still have enough stamina to break free from the CC that will occur every 5 seconds. PvP raids don't hit like raid mobs, they animation cancel and they use rotations. You will take far more hits per second than a PvE raid. Without that heavy armor block reduction your stamina will get nuked at once the moment you block leaving you without enough stamina to break CC. If you can't break CC you can't heal and you die. Of course you could add the block reduction, but not without losing mitigation or crit defense. To successfully PvP tank you need to live for at least 15 seconds in the middle of a raid on your own. That is about how long it takes for a guild to notice the opening and charge, or the scattered pugs to realize they can push.

I can last for 15-20 seconds on average in the middle of an enemy raid without permablocking now, but without that bracing passive I don't expect to last longer than 10 seconds to any competent raid because periodic blocking is essential to staying on top of the damage you are taking. It is a delicate balance between doing enough damage to be identified as a threat and living long enough to get your faction in safely. I feel that balance is seriously hindered by decoupling blocking from heavy armor. I can survive this with the blocking reduction trait, but it shouldn't be this way. I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank.

Nail on head - that's exactly how I role - some great points. Also just to add to this, as a PvP tank who wears the reactive set from IC with full impenetrable, if I'm not too overrun with enemies I tend to just let any CC run its course due to the 35% reduction in damage from the armour set plus the reduced crit cost from the impenetrable traits - this is particularly important due to the broken CC mechanisms currently in PvP (I've posted a YouTube video of this in a previous post in this debate). I don't need to break the CC and can reserve my stamina resource for other things.

In this particular situation, and with the removal of Bracing from the HA skill line, I would have to slot sturdy and lose my impenetrable traits to make up for the reduced blocking cost, which would then mean I take more damage from enemy crits whilst CC'd, thus reducing my survivability.

It really doesn't take a genius to see just how much the removal of bracing is going to adversely affect this type of tanking in PvP which myself and @Armitas adopts (and I'm sure we aren't the only ones).

Anyway, hopefully ZOS sees sense here and common sense prevails in the end and they put Bracing back in in some shape or form.

hrothbern wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

laced wrote: »

All this talkabout trials is great, but until you get attacked by a swarm of people in pvp you dont understand how awful this change really is. Not only will I lose my stamina much quicker due to bracing being scrapped and cost of blocking being increased, but I will no longer have my impen traits on my armor due to having to replace them with sturdy, meaning i will take more damage due to crits, and run out of stamina faster.

Although PvE and PvP are both very important to me PvP will always be my primary love and is my first concern over this change. I expect the same thing to occur for me.
________________
If people don't know what a tanking role is in PvP I will explain it. PvP tanking is not walking around holding block while casting the occasional skill, that is leaching. You don't draw aggro by permablocking. PvP tanking means being the first person to jump into an enemy raid to draw their fire, debuff (maim)them, CC, threaten and harass their weak and their healers so that the rest of the raid can safely enter without being nuked at the front. You have to build your threat manually. At least in my case I also provide a forward heal point for the rest of the raid through blessing of restoration and igneous mending. I don't permablock but I do block for short periods of time to catch up to the damage I am taking and keep from dying to radiant destruction which is painted on me 100% of the time.

PvP tanking does play an important role if used with the rest of your faction in mind. Without it you have these pew pew stand offs where no one wants to push because as soon as they become noticeable in the herd they are targeted and killed. So they sit on either side killing the random person and rezing at a tent. The only way it ends is either a surprise ball flank or a PvP tank goes in and draws the fire long enough for their faction to realize and make the push.

Part of succeeding in that role is being able to block for short periods of time to heal back up and still have enough stamina to break free from the CC that will occur every 5 seconds. PvP raids don't hit like raid mobs, they animation cancel and they use rotations. You will take far more hits per second than a PvE raid. Without that heavy armor block reduction your stamina will get nuked at once the moment you block leaving you without enough stamina to break CC. If you can't break CC you can't heal and you die. Of course you could add the block reduction, but not without losing mitigation or crit defense. To successfully PvP tank you need to live for at least 15 seconds in the middle of a raid on your own. That is about how long it takes for a guild to notice the opening and charge, or the scattered pugs to realize they can push.

I can last for 15-20 seconds on average in the middle of an enemy raid without permablocking now, but without that bracing passive I don't expect to last longer than 10 seconds to any competent raid because periodic blocking is essential to staying on top of the damage you are taking. It is a delicate balance between doing enough damage to be identified as a threat and living long enough to get your faction in safely. I feel that balance is seriously hindered by decoupling blocking from heavy armor. I can survive this with the blocking reduction trait, but it shouldn't be this way. I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank.

Nail on head - that's exactly how I role - some great points. Also just to add to this, as a PvP tank who wears the reactive set from IC with full impenetrable, if I'm not too overrun with enemies I tend to just let any CC run its course due to the 35% reduction in damage from the armour set plus the reduced crit cost from the impenetrable traits - this is particularly important due to the broken CC mechanisms currently in PvP (I've posted a YouTube video of this in a previous post in this debate). I don't need to break the CC and can reserve my stamina resource for other things.

In this particular situation, and with the removal of Bracing from the HA skill line, I would have to slot sturdy and lose my impenetrable traits to make up for the reduced blocking cost, which would then mean I take more damage from enemy crits whilst CC'd, thus reducing my survivability.

It really doesn't take a genius to see just how much the removal of bracing is going to adversely affect this type of tanking in PvP which myself and @Armitas adopts (and I'm sure we aren't the only ones).

Anyway, hopefully ZOS sees sense here and common sense prevails in the end and they put Bracing back in in some shape or form.

My guess is that ZOS will never give Bracing back to HA.....

But why not a Crit Resist passive on HA ?
For example: per piece of HA you get 300 Crit Resist ?

Crit strikes are precision strikes in your weak spot.
Plate Armor has no weak spots.

Cinbri wrote: »

With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.

---

Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.

sebban wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

laced wrote: »

All this talkabout trials is great, but until you get attacked by a swarm of people in pvp you dont understand how awful this change really is. Not only will I lose my stamina much quicker due to bracing being scrapped and cost of blocking being increased, but I will no longer have my impen traits on my armor due to having to replace them with sturdy, meaning i will take more damage due to crits, and run out of stamina faster.

Although PvE and PvP are both very important to me PvP will always be my primary love and is my first concern over this change. I expect the same thing to occur for me.
________________
If people don't know what a tanking role is in PvP I will explain it. PvP tanking is not walking around holding block while casting the occasional skill, that is leaching. You don't draw aggro by permablocking. PvP tanking means being the first person to jump into an enemy raid to draw their fire, debuff (maim)them, CC, threaten and harass their weak and their healers so that the rest of the raid can safely enter without being nuked at the front. You have to build your threat manually. At least in my case I also provide a forward heal point for the rest of the raid through blessing of restoration and igneous mending. I don't permablock but I do block for short periods of time to catch up to the damage I am taking and keep from dying to radiant destruction which is painted on me 100% of the time.

PvP tanking does play an important role if used with the rest of your faction in mind. Without it you have these pew pew stand offs where no one wants to push because as soon as they become noticeable in the herd they are targeted and killed. So they sit on either side killing the random person and rezing at a tent. The only way it ends is either a surprise ball flank or a PvP tank goes in and draws the fire long enough for their faction to realize and make the push.

Part of succeeding in that role is being able to block for short periods of time to heal back up and still have enough stamina to break free from the CC that will occur every 5 seconds. PvP raids don't hit like raid mobs, they animation cancel and they use rotations. You will take far more hits per second than a PvE raid. Without that heavy armor block reduction your stamina will get nuked at once the moment you block leaving you without enough stamina to break CC. If you can't break CC you can't heal and you die. Of course you could add the block reduction, but not without losing mitigation or crit defense. To successfully PvP tank you need to live for at least 15 seconds in the middle of a raid on your own. That is about how long it takes for a guild to notice the opening and charge, or the scattered pugs to realize they can push.

I can last for 15-20 seconds on average in the middle of an enemy raid without permablocking now, but without that bracing passive I don't expect to last longer than 10 seconds to any competent raid because periodic blocking is essential to staying on top of the damage you are taking. It is a delicate balance between doing enough damage to be identified as a threat and living long enough to get your faction in safely. I feel that balance is seriously hindered by decoupling blocking from heavy armor. I can survive this with the blocking reduction trait, but it shouldn't be this way. I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank.

Nail on head - that's exactly how I role - some great points. Also just to add to this, as a PvP tank who wears the reactive set from IC with full impenetrable, if I'm not too overrun with enemies I tend to just let any CC run its course due to the 35% reduction in damage from the armour set plus the reduced crit cost from the impenetrable traits - this is particularly important due to the broken CC mechanisms currently in PvP (I've posted a YouTube video of this in a previous post in this debate). I don't need to break the CC and can reserve my stamina resource for other things.

In this particular situation, and with the removal of Bracing from the HA skill line, I would have to slot sturdy and lose my impenetrable traits to make up for the reduced blocking cost, which would then mean I take more damage from enemy crits whilst CC'd, thus reducing my survivability.

It really doesn't take a genius to see just how much the removal of bracing is going to adversely affect this type of tanking in PvP which myself and @Armitas adopts (and I'm sure we aren't the only ones).

Anyway, hopefully ZOS sees sense here and common sense prevails in the end and they put Bracing back in in some shape or form.

My guess is that ZOS will never give Bracing back to HA.....

But why not a Crit Resist passive on HA ?
For example: per piece of HA you get 300 Crit Resist ?

Crit strikes are precision strikes in your weak spot.
Plate Armor has no weak spots.

Crit resist is 100% useless in PvE. No thanks, just give us Bracing back.