Our movement in reaching out to ZOS will eventually work and pay off. We'll get what we need in due time. In due time...

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The same issue I found to exist with vMA. The damage races against bosses that ignore player mechanics (such as the first boss who ignores healing debuff) bugs me.

Damage races that are easily done by DPS I think go to show that the place was made to only be completed by DPS toons.

This irks me to no end. Only viable role for vMSA is DPS with self heals.

BTW great thread. Hope the devs see nobody playing tanks and take time to talk to us dedicated tanks to fix the issue.

Thanks for leading the way @Personofsecrets

Whilst I agree with most of the above, i generally prefer stamina not to regen/regen block should not be available to non-tanks (<5 HA equipped).

Tanking In MMOs in general have a crucial role to play

1) Damage mitigation
Damage you receive is reduced such that DPS received can be handled by the healer. This will require higher armor. Soft caps forces diversity but in this case, homogenicity. Soft caps should be reduced.

2) Spike control
You want to avoid/absorb as much spike damage as possible to prevent you and other teammates from dying. This may require a higher health pool. Health is currently a useless stat because it doesn't improve the use of any skills. That said, damage shields should scale to health. That is a no-brainer.

3) Mob control and damage enhancement
Body blocking, snare, taunt and knockdowns should alter enemy movement enough to enhance AOE damage. Some skills that apply an effect such as fracture facilitate damage dealing. ESO need to balance tanking for classes, for example providing templars with stronger territorial control, so that templars can have their house.

4) Pressure and retaliation
In a lot of games, tanks come with retaliation skills. Some skills have survived many generations in the name of balance. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Riposte
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposte
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Counter_(ability)
ESO needs more counters and retaliation skills. Currently the only tankworthy counters are damage shields (such as blazing shield) and defensive posture and its morphs. This makes skills like wrecking blow difficult to deal with. If tanks have 'Counter: Damage received from next melee attack is reflected", a tank can exert better territorial control simply because attacking him becomes a danger. Of course i am not proposing god mode. What I am saying is that tanks should not be 2hko by glass cannons and that glass cannons should look out for signs of such counters so they don't actually kill themselves. Being forced to ignore a tank who can buff fellow team-mates makes PVP interesting. The team can either consider using different skills against the tank or continue to ignore the tank, but of course the tank won't allow that.

5) Optional Off-heals
I can only imagine that once a tank is balanced, he will be ignored and everyone will start hunting healers. Tanks should be able to provide weak heals to at least give the healer a chance to escape but not sustain it indefinitely.

6) Stamina management
-.-

I do not disagree with the OP. However, I think a few things need to be kept in perspective. Stam Regen during blocking wasn't a change to punish tanks and make it more difficult to block. It was a change to prevent block casting; a change that mostly effects PvP but also has some application in PvE as casters could block cast thru most damage there as well.

The biggest issue here is that ZOS seems to be having an extremely difficult time balancing both PvP and PvE, as it would seem most of the changes made are to balance PvP (where imbalances are more apparent). Tho unfortunately, those changes for the sake of PvP often have far reaching effects on PvE. I have said it on many occasions, and continue to feel, that having separate PvP and PvE profiles is the only way the devs will truly be able to balance the game properly. They need the ability to be able to change certain skills and mechanics for one without effecting the other.

Basically, with the game in its current state, the devs are going to face some serious hurdles in trying to make Tanking relevant...
* How do they increase the effectiveness of Heavy Armor considering that with sets like Armor Master you can hit the PvE resistance caps in medium armor, and come close to them with light armor? Currently, heavy armor offers little increased value in PvE, and most would argue absolutely none (or at least a complete 5-set) in Pvp
* How do they make tanks 'tankier' but not make them unkillable in PvP
* How do they actually give tanks a role in PvP without contributing to imbalance?
*** @Wing note that the answer to the two aforementioned points is NOT to give heavy armor Tanks high damage output as then you will have unkillable DDs
* How do they add more team utility to tanks in PvE without contributing to the already noticeable power creep in the game?
* How do they give every class the viability to tank without giving every class even more self-sufficiency, and thus contribute to power creep or even further stray from the need for conventional Tanks and Healers?
* And the million dollar question, how do they make tanking fun and respectable, without it being a resource management struggle or simply a situation of stand and keep your shield up (as that is neither fun nor glamorous, it certainly does not earn you the respect of your PvE comrades as most view it to be the easiest role in the game, and it has no current application in PvP)?

I absolutely agree something needs to be done to make tanking viable and fun, and also offering tanks a role in PvP. So, with all this in mind, I have to admit I don't have the answers lol. Some ideas that may help...
* Give Tanks stam regen while blocking back. But to prevent it from being abused by non-Tanks, maybe make it a 7-set heavy Armor buff (yes, a departure from the current 5-set passive buffs). Yes, Tanks CAN do their jobs without Stam regen while blocking, but as pointed out, it limits build options, and build options and diversity are a lot of the fun in games like this.
* Give tanks a sort of 'area taunt' in PvE; not something over powered, but something to make them useful on more than just bosses?
* Increase the armor rating of heavy armor. This will have little effect in PvE, but will have a greater application in PvP where players have massive penetration ratings. Tho, in PvE, it will allow Tanks to run additional skills and Team buffs/enemy debuffs vice major/minor armor buffs.
* Give tanks some sort of AoE enemy player debuff in PvP, and maybe link that debuff into their being alive (i.e. once skill is cast, it has a longer time duration, or can be stopped by killing the tank who cast it, to actually force us to have to target the tanks vice just ignore them; can also link suck skills to a resource drain thus if the Tank runs out of resources {health or stam} then the AoE skills turns off, thus making it harder for the Tanks to survive enemy player assaults and thus requiring team support...i.e. MMO!)
* Overhaul the Heavy Armor passives. They are garbage. There should be passives that have general application, but also a passive or two that have specific application in PvP. If you don't want DDs benefiting from the passives, even from a single piece or two of hvy from the Undaunted Mettle, then make more of the passives 5-set and/or 7-set buffs.
* SEPARATE PVP AND PVE PROFILES AND BALANCE THEM INDIVIDUALLY!

Anyway, these are just some thinking outloud type of ideas without much pro/con going into it. Some of the ideas may be horrible, but hopefully they get everyone thinking. I have always been taught that if you are going to bring up a problem, you should be able to offer a solution. We know Tanking isn't perfect...what's some thoughts for how to fix it?

Great OP. I agree with all the points.

Sadly, it won't make any difference. Wrobel and ZOS are just not listening to the boards-- they listen to streamers and themselves, that is to say their own conception of how the game should be rather than how it is right now. This explains why Wrobel was so hilariously wrong when he talked about Templars 'protecting their house', and when he said it would be more 'fun' to nerf stamina regen when blocking. They are following their own idea of the game rather than listening to their community; and unfortunately, Wrobel's idea of a good PvP meta is endless DPS checks.

This is why nothing gets fixed, and it has gotten worse under Wrobel's leadership. Templars are subpar at anything but healing, heavy armor still sucks, and tanking is gradually becoming extinct. Is that more fun? Definitely not for me.

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

I do not disagree with the OP. However, I think a few things need to be kept in perspective. Stam Regen during blocking wasn't a change to punish tanks and make it more difficult to block. It was a change to prevent block casting; a change that mostly effects PvP but also has some application in PvE as casters could block cast thru most damage there as well.

The biggest issue here is that ZOS seems to be having an extremely difficult time balancing both PvP and PvE, as it would seem most of the changes made are to balance PvP (where imbalances are more apparent). Tho unfortunately, those changes for the sake of PvP often have far reaching effects on PvE. I have said it on many occasions, and continue to feel, that having separate PvP and PvE profiles is the only way the devs will truly be able to balance the game properly. They need the ability to be able to change certain skills and mechanics for one without effecting the other.

Basically, with the game in its current state, the devs are going to face some serious hurdles in trying to make Tanking relevant...
* How do they increase the effectiveness of Heavy Armor considering that with sets like Armor Master you can hit the PvE resistance caps in medium armor, and come close to them with light armor? Currently, heavy armor offers little increased value in PvE, and most would argue absolutely none (or at least a complete 5-set) in Pvp
* How do they make tanks 'tankier' but not make them unkillable in PvP
* How do they actually give tanks a role in PvP without contributing to imbalance?
*** @Wing note that the answer to the two aforementioned points is NOT to give heavy armor Tanks high damage output as then you will have unkillable DDs
* How do they add more team utility to tanks in PvE without contributing to the already noticeable power creep in the game?
* How do they give every class the viability to tank without giving every class even more self-sufficiency, and thus contribute to power creep or even further stray from the need for conventional Tanks and Healers?
* And the million dollar question, how do they make tanking fun and respectable, without it being a resource management struggle or simply a situation of stand and keep your shield up (as that is neither fun nor glamorous, it certainly does not earn you the respect of your PvE comrades as most view it to be the easiest role in the game, and it has no current application in PvP)?

I absolutely agree something needs to be done to make tanking viable and fun, and also offering tanks a role in PvP. So, with all this in mind, I have to admit I don't have the answers lol. Some ideas that may help...
* Give Tanks stam regen while blocking back. But to prevent it from being abused by non-Tanks, maybe make it a 7-set heavy Armor buff (yes, a departure from the current 5-set passive buffs). Yes, Tanks CAN do their jobs without Stam regen while blocking, but as pointed out, it limits build options, and build options and diversity are a lot of the fun in games like this.
* Give tanks a sort of 'area taunt' in PvE; not something over powered, but something to make them useful on more than just bosses?
* Increase the armor rating of heavy armor. This will have little effect in PvE, but will have a greater application in PvP where players have massive penetration ratings. Tho, in PvE, it will allow Tanks to run additional skills and Team buffs/enemy debuffs vice major/minor armor buffs.
* Give tanks some sort of AoE enemy player debuff in PvP, and maybe link that debuff into their being alive (i.e. once skill is cast, it has a longer time duration, or can be stopped by killing the tank who cast it, to actually force us to have to target the tanks vice just ignore them; can also link suck skills to a resource drain thus if the Tank runs out of resources {health or stam} then the AoE skills turns off, thus making it harder for the Tanks to survive enemy player assaults and thus requiring team support...i.e. MMO!)
* Overhaul the Heavy Armor passives. They are garbage. There should be passives that have general application, but also a passive or two that have specific application in PvP. If you don't want DDs benefiting from the passives, even from a single piece or two of hvy from the Undaunted Mettle, then make more of the passives 5-set and/or 7-set buffs.
* SEPARATE PVP AND PVE PROFILES AND BALANCE THEM INDIVIDUALLY!

Anyway, these are just some thinking outloud type of ideas without much pro/con going into it. Some of the ideas may be horrible, but hopefully they get everyone thinking. I have always been taught that if you are going to bring up a problem, you should be able to offer a solution. We know Tanking isn't perfect...what's some thoughts for how to fix it?

@Wrobel was clear that the stamina change was to effect block casting and tanking. If you are saying that the developers just made up that the change was intended to effect tanking as a way to cover themselves when making what was primarily a block casting nerf, then I would agree that such a dynamic is possible. Most of the rest of your post I am on board with and I thank you for writing.

Lets see if we can change the bracing nerf

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

Hey @Personofsecrets , great post with great insight into the challenges faced by a small and largely silent group of people I have found. I was against the stam regen nerf from the beginning and still find myself struggling with having 'fun' watching the green bar instead of watching the boss mechanics. I certainly think a 50% reduction would have been more in line with reality...well, as much reality as you can have in an MMO! As I see the templar's begging in thread after thread for their impending nerfs not to happen, I am reminded of the over 45 page post we had going about the stam regen change, and the fact it did nothing in the long run.

I am certainly not a theory crafter nor am I a min-maxer; I enjoy tanking and love the pressure/responsibility the role entails. I will keep rolling with the punches and evolving as much as I can as I love the game but wow, your post definitely put it in perspective for me.

Thank you for the encouragement Soriana. I am pretty sure that I remember you posting on that old massive anti-nerf thread. I'd like to know any of the troubles that you find, particularly ones that I have not mentioned, and would appreciate if you share them here.

@Personofsecrets - finally chiming back in with some insight. My Imperial DK tank is still plugging along, still in the same gear I've been tanking in (Hist, Footmans, although I have switched Bloodspawn for Engine Guardian) forever. When I have no support from a Templar healer (translation = shards for days), stam management is incredibly difficult especially against Manti and in Maw. I made a leaderboard run in AAHM where they wanted more dps so we only had two heals. I did not have a dedicated healer so everything was up to me to survive and manage. We did it and got some sweet yellow loot but it cost a ton of tri pots and we ended up running it twice since I died the first run. Apparently I'm still not having enough Wroebel labeled fun while tanking!

Am helping a friend with learning mechanics on a stamplar tank; she is using Tava's, willpower, and Night's Silence. It is a challenge with no CC other than caltrops but she is managing. She will take her tank into either Maw or against Manti tomorrow so I will let you know how that goes. She was under the mistaken notion that, with over 35K of stamina, that running out or running low would not be an issue, especially with repentance slotted. Boy did she get an awakening! We were running some tests against mobs; she would run in and see how long her sustainability was and then, when they respawned, I would run in and run the same test. We just taunted and blocked to see resource drain, etc. Watching her char she was constantly casting, healing, shielding, etc. My char shielded, taunted, and stood for what seemed an eternity before any bars started moving. She actually has more CP's than I do so I'm guessing the class differences and gear differences are the contributing factor. It was interesting to see how opposite we were on the spectrum though.

Just figured I'd let you know what I've been doing. Please PM me with any questions or if you want me to run any tests, etc. Always glad to help you!

Just want to add something. Got my lunar bastion 5x set . Went to SO final boss and i was total failure. Change back to footman / hist bark and puff no issues

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to add something. Got my lunar bastion 5x set . Went to SO final boss and i was total failure. Change back to footman / hist bark and puff no issues

Yea, I've seen it in action. It's quite laughable.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261206/lunar-bastion-set-seems-underpowered

The 3p bonus isn't bad, though, but in order to get that, you'll have to take that icky 4% healing taken bonus. 3p Twilight Remedy would actually be better, I think.

Anyway, my current trials tank setup on Live is 2p Blood Spawn, 5p Tava for my two core sets, and to fill thing out, 2p Agility, 2p Endurance, and 1p Maelstrom/Master sword (Maelstrom on the bar with Heroic Slash, Master on the bar with the melee taunt). I've tanked SO HM in this, and I've also co-tanked vMoL up to the 2nd boss with this. I'm quite happy with this setup.

I'm thinking about changing it up, though. Specifically, getting rid of the 2p Agility, 2p Endurance, and 1p Maelstrom/Master sword and replacing it with 5p Ebon. So it'll be 2p BS head/shoulders, 5p Ebon jewelry+armor, and 5p Tava armor+sword+shield. The nice thing about this setup, aside from Ebon's group utility, is that I no longer have max-stat bonuses on my sword and shield, so bar-swapping won't eat into my bar as it currently does. It just requires a lot of nMoL farming to get the right pieces with the right traits plus that elusive jewelry.

Another potential setup would be 3p Twilight Remedy (that magicka recovery far more useful for a tank than the healing received, IMO) and either 2p Agility or 2p Endurance.

Whatever the case, I'm not really missing the lack of Footman, TBH.

@Woeler I always thought he did. I'm not quite sure now however. Could use this answer aswell before i go further in on this post.

@Wrobel , In my opinion, tanks are currently dealing more damage than they ever and have, currently, the fewest options to put damaging effects on their bar. Yet now is the time you decide to give us more (be it a nominal pitiful amount) in exchange for the best heavy armor passive?

Something just doesn't add up.

Woeler wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

A question that I have been having for a long time: Does OP actually tank for a competitive group in trials? A yes or no might or might not explain certain things I read here.

I have been part of all kinds of groups.

Some pug
Some casual
Some progression
Some leader board

I've lead raids
I've helped put them together
I've struggled to be a part of some
I've gotten bitched at in others
I've quit guilds over raiding
I've watched others fall apart around me

My experiences run the gambit.

Alright, now at least I know why differ in opinions on various topics.

What reason do you think that is? Just curious.

ALL shields should scale off of max health. Yes, this is going to change a lot of builds. But with the current set up:
1. Tanks have low damage.
2. DPS are tanky.

Only the first of those two should be true. The second should rely on their damage and leave tankiness to the tank. Scaling shields on max health will go a LONG way to helping this. There needs to be a trade off for what you build, and there shouldn't be a situation where you get the best of both worlds. I see it often in game where DPS will laugh at a tank for looking for a group for a dungeon. It's ridiculous, but that's what this game encourages.