Thoughst on the PTS Notes from a Farmer and Master Crafter

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Masstershake wrote: »

So just having the crafting bag for free isnt a perk by itself? You need to know that non subs can't purchase it too?

Seriously it shouldn't affect subscribers one bit if a one time purchase player can purchase the bag. You still get it for free with your payment method

I think those assistants should have been free for subscribers as well.

It has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing.
It has to do with everyone (subbers and non-subbers) comparing two different options (subbing and not subbing) and if the bag is also available in one form or the other to non subbers, then the non subbing option will be more appealing and stronger than the subbing option. Just like it is the case now, without the bag.
This is what ZOS is trying to change : make subbing a stronger option.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Nestor wrote: »

linlilia wrote: »

And yes this has to do with the the exclusivity of the Craft Bags,

Sorry, I am going to deflate your argument right here.

I am a Master Crafter (on several characters even) and Crafting Bags are not even part of the equation for me right now. Anyone can be a Master Crafter and handle the inventory with the way the game currently is right now. I do, and I have mats for every level in every profession, including Raw Mats.

Nobody needs Crafting Bags to be a Master Crafter or handle the inventory that is required to make anything for any level character at any time.

Nothing is being taken away from non subscribers by offering Crafting Bags to subscribers.

Quoted for truth.
Master crafter here too, with all crafts on one toon which is ALSO my main toon for dungeons, raids, PvP, everything.
With properly thought out inventory management, it's a easily doable.
Bag will ease that a lot, but is in no way compulsory.

Audigy · April 2016

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me really worry about this games community. There is so much poison and entitlement in this thread, it´s just crazy.

People who sub, see themselves as superior and the reason why ESO exists, which is a flawed logic as being a sub is a 10 bucks investment a month, an amount of money that a F2P user can easily overcome by buying a single cosmetic item or a DLC.
That elitism is always a problem at these type of F2P games. Those who invest feel superior to those, who do not, or better put, they feel like they need a reason to be treated better than everyone else, after all they pay their monthly fee or for char slots, bank space ...

I find that attitude very sad, as a game can not survive alone by those that sub, or use the shop. A game is a community and it requires everyone to contribute. Some will contribute with real money investments, others with a steady sub and again others don´t pay anything, but are still the ones who tank for you or trade an item with you.

There was a game once, one guy I knew was our main tank, he was full F2P, never invested and yet did a good job. One day, the company released something that made it easier for tanks, but it was a pay to use thing. He couldn´t pay, so he complained at the forum, just like the OP does here. He was insulted and called names, as it was in the eyes of the others, not ok that he had the beneifts as well, since he did not pay. In the end, he left the game and several others tanks followed him. Shortly after, more and more threads occurred, where people complained about the lack of good tanks, many of them were former elitists who felt superior as they paid.

So yes, trying to exclude others, just because you feel superior will never work out. One day, you might need exactly this person who you formerly insulted.

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

Masstershake · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masstershake wrote: »

So just having the crafting bag for free isnt a perk by itself? You need to know that non subs can't purchase it too?

Seriously it shouldn't affect subscribers one bit if a one time purchase player can purchase the bag. You still get it for free with your payment method

I think those assistants should have been free for subscribers as well.

It has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing.
It has to do with everyone (subbers and non-subbers) comparing two different options (subbing and not subbing) and if the bag is also available in one form or the other to non subbers, then the non subbing option will be more appealing and stronger than the subbing option. Just like it is the case now, without the bag.
This is what ZOS is trying to change : make subbing a stronger option.

So getting a bag for subscribing isn't enough if you can also one time purchase the bag? So do you think the same for dlc?

I agree subscribers need more bonuses but not exclusives.

I think subscribers should get free access to the assistants and the bag. And one time purchase players should be able to 1 time purchase either.

Eso implemented 2 ways to pay for this game and from going threw vanilla wow to swtor i came here partially because i love the concept of being able to 1 time purchase mmo stuff.

To pay a monthly fee shouldn't give you access to stuff that cant be purchased with a 1 time fee but should give you perks like not having to 1 time pay for stuff. Or excess gold faster research which those items are not exclusives but rather bonuses

Dracan_Fontom · April 2016

I honestly do not care about the crafting bags. I've live with out them for about a year, and I'll live without then now.

Pomaikai · April 2016

Audigy wrote: »

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me really worry about this games community. There is so much poison and entitlement in this thread, it´s just crazy.

People who sub, see themselves as superior and the reason why ESO exists, which is a flawed logic as being a sub is a 10 bucks investment a month, an amount of money that a F2P user can easily overcome by buying a single cosmetic item or a DLC.
That elitism is always a problem at these type of F2P games. Those who invest feel superior to those, who do not, or better put, they feel like they need a reason to be treated better than everyone else, after all they pay their monthly fee or for char slots, bank space ...

I find that attitude very sad, as a game can not survive alone by those that sub, or use the shop. A game is a community and it requires everyone to contribute. Some will contribute with real money investments, others with a steady sub and again others don´t pay anything, but are still the ones who tank for you or trade an item with you.

There was a game once, one guy I knew was our main tank, he was full F2P, never invested and yet did a good job. One day, the company released something that made it easier for tanks, but it was a pay to use thing. He couldn´t pay, so he complained at the forum, just like the OP does here. He was insulted and called names, as it was in the eyes of the others, not ok that he had the beneifts as well, since he did not pay. In the end, he left the game and several others tanks followed him. Shortly after, more and more threads occurred, where people complained about the lack of good tanks, many of them were former elitists who felt superior as they paid.

So yes, trying to exclude others, just because you feel superior will never work out. One day, you might need exactly this person who you formerly insulted.

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

That's a really wonderful, feel good kinda game where the developer shuts it down due to lack of revenue. Sorry, but the bills need to be paid, and the banks want to see not only a current revenue stream, but a solid projected revenue stream before they lend them the money for future development.

The biggest issue throughout this entire thread is still total lack of understanding of the economics of business in general, and game development in particular.

gw2only1b14_ESO · April 2016

The Crafting Bag is a 374.00 Value basically if you subbed since day 1 its a pretty nice perk If you sub now it will cost you 14.99 each month for the Luxury of the bag .
The way I see it its a luxury to have this so I'm glad I've been a subber so I can have a nice perk. Now those wanting this hell getting in at 14.99 a month a better deal then what I've got it for.....

Calippe_Hac · April 2016

First thing I thought was "now I don't have to spend ingame gold on bag space. S...o.... they have removed a gold sink.

Why?

It feels nice.

I got the ESO plus mostly to buy the DLCs thru the crown store. The rest of the stuff I've hardly noticed.

But I suppose --- it feels nice.......

Tevalaur · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Who wants to spend 15$ on crowns only when they can have THE SAME amount of crowns PLUS the bag PLUS the other ESO+ advantages for 15$ ???? Please explain ???

This may be true if you only buy the $15 crown pack. But compare the price with the 5500 crowns for $39.99 and suddenly you might see why we buy THAT crown pack rather than subscribe. It's a 27% savings per crown over the $15 pack/sub.

myrrrorb14_ESO · April 2016

Audigy wrote: »

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me really worry about this games community. There is so much poison and entitlement in this thread, it´s just crazy.

People who sub, see themselves as superior and the reason why ESO exists, which is a flawed logic as being a sub is a 10 bucks investment a month, an amount of money that a F2P user can easily overcome by buying a single cosmetic item or a DLC.
That elitism is always a problem at these type of F2P games. Those who invest feel superior to those, who do not, or better put, they feel like they need a reason to be treated better than everyone else, after all they pay their monthly fee or for char slots, bank space ...

I find that attitude very sad, as a game can not survive alone by those that sub, or use the shop. A game is a community and it requires everyone to contribute. Some will contribute with real money investments, others with a steady sub and again others don´t pay anything, but are still the ones who tank for you or trade an item with you.

There was a game once, one guy I knew was our main tank, he was full F2P, never invested and yet did a good job. One day, the company released something that made it easier for tanks, but it was a pay to use thing. He couldn´t pay, so he complained at the forum, just like the OP does here. He was insulted and called names, as it was in the eyes of the others, not ok that he had the beneifts as well, since he did not pay. In the end, he left the game and several others tanks followed him. Shortly after, more and more threads occurred, where people complained about the lack of good tanks, many of them were former elitists who felt superior as they paid.

So yes, trying to exclude others, just because you feel superior will never work out. One day, you might need exactly this person who you formerly insulted.

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

Entitlement and poison are way too common and not just on gaming forums. It kind of turns my stomach at times to be truthful.

But it exists on both sides. Sub and pay as you go (crown store users).

Both are important to the game as a whole and there should be a difference between the two. There are numerous advantages to just using the Crown store and precious few for subscribing. Craft bags are not even close to game breaking. It is a nice addition and I welcome it. But I'm doing great without it and yes I do craft a lot for others as well as myself.

I think it's great that ZOS is making decisions and implementing changes to appeal to different types of customers.

Sweetpea704 · April 2016

Saying that you don't have a steady income really is a non issue, if you frequently buy crowns anyway. You can buy a subscription for 90 days at a time and it really isn't that much more than buying crowns. You even GET crowns with the subscription. So, you don't have to pay monthly. There are even some websites that let you buy codes for subscriptions for a significantly discounted rate. Ask around in your guild.

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

nmv, didn't see they'd moved this to PTS

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Tevalaur wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Who wants to spend 15$ on crowns only when they can have THE SAME amount of crowns PLUS the bag PLUS the other ESO+ advantages for 15$ ???? Please explain ???

This may be true if you only buy the $15 crown pack. But compare the price with the 5500 crowns for $39.99 and suddenly you might see why we buy THAT crown pack rather than subscribe. It's a 27% savings per crown over the $15 pack/sub.

That would need to be compared with the 6month subscription plan which is also about 25% cheaper. In the end it's all the same, and subbing is ALWAYS the better deal (provided you sub only for the amount of crowns you intended to purchase).

Tevalaur · April 2016

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Really people?!? Do you all read the previous post, or just reply to the last post? Instead of bickering over who pays what. Why not try thinking about and debating solutions that both sides can be happy with?

I've offered 2 solutions. One was the limited version of the crafting bag as others have suggested. The other was simply increasing the max size of the bank from 240 to something that would hold one stack of each crafting mat and at least a handful of other goods. For the moment say 310 if 297 is the accurate number of individual stacks of crafting mats, and increasing as they create more crafting mats.

Drummerx04 · April 2016

The main issue I see with the ESO+ only craft bag: I have already bought all the current dlc with crowns and I have 4k crowns prepared for DB. I suspect there are quite a few people in this category, and we will be purchasing a subscription exclusively for the craft bag since we already have the dlc and don't really gain much from the other perks.

One of the main reasons I don't want to sub:
My life isn't stable. I'm playing regularly right now, but in a month or two I could be moving across the country to a new career and I may not be able to play for a while. So for me, the subscription would be wasted. With the crown purchase I can conceivably put the game down for 8 months and pick up where I left off without a hassle.

A subscription to ESO+ should essentially be a nod made out of money from a player to the developers of ESO as an extra thank you for making the game that also comes with some minor benefits, rather than a paywall to major convenience and benefits. I mean why not just give ESO+ members the merchant and banker assistants as part of the sub instead?

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Audigy wrote: »

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

The bolded part is actually factually wrong, it's cheaper to get crowns for DLC's only than to sub.

But it's not my main point. Your first sentence made me think of an aspect of the situation that noone has commented on yet : ZOS always promised (and kept that promise so far) that outside from purely cosmetic items, there would never be any item in the crown store that would not be available in the game. That's why we got psijic ambrosia as an ingame alternative to XP scrolls, for example.
On the other hand, they NEVER promised that ESO+ advantages would be available in the game.

That means... that if the crafting bag was made available in the Crown Store for one-time purchase, it would be necessary to add a possibility for us to earn it in the game, too.

Kas · April 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Is there a TL;DR?

OP is a crafter and wants to say bags are pay2win

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

The bolded part is actually factually wrong, it's cheaper to get crowns for DLC's only than to sub.

But it's not my main point. Your first sentence made me think of an aspect of the situation that noone has commented on yet : ZOS always promised (and kept that promise so far) that outside from purely cosmetic items, there would never be any item in the crown store that would not be available in the game. That's why we got psijic ambrosia as an ingame alternative to XP scrolls, for example.
On the other hand, they NEVER promised that ESO+ advantages would be available in the game.

That means... that if the crafting bag was made available in the Crown Store for one-time purchase, it would be necessary to add a possibility for us to earn it in the game, too.

You can't earn some of the outfits, pets or mounts in the game, you can earn equivalencies I guess but not exact versions.

Sweetpea704 · April 2016

The suggestion that the assistants should be the ESO Plus member perk made me laugh. There would be so many threads complaining about that if it was true!

Masstershake · April 2016

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

The suggestion that the assistants should be the ESO Plus member perk made me laugh. There would be so many threads complaining about that if it was true!

I have been suggesting this. How would that upset people? It isn't suggested to make assistants exclusive but free with eso+

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

You can't earn some of the outfits, pets or mounts in the game, you can earn equivalencies I guess but not exact versions.

I specifically said "outside from purely cosmetic items" (which mounts, pets and costumes are).

myrrrorb14_ESO · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

The bolded part is actually factually wrong, it's cheaper to get crowns for DLC's only than to sub.

But it's not my main point. Your first sentence made me think of an aspect of the situation that noone has commented on yet : ZOS always promised (and kept that promise so far) that outside from purely cosmetic items, there would never be any item in the crown store that would not be available in the game. That's why we got psijic ambrosia as an ingame alternative to XP scrolls, for example.
On the other hand, they NEVER promised that ESO+ advantages would be available in the game.

That means... that if the crafting bag was made available in the Crown Store for one-time purchase, it would be necessary to add a possibility for us to earn it in the game, too.

As a general rule yes. I think they like the term convenience items. Even the items they add to the Crown store are slightly inferior to the ones you can craft.

If crafting bags were to be available it would squarely fall into convenience and would not have to be available for acquisition within the game. Of course I have no idea how they would add it to the store. Maybe 1000 crowns per month per 100 slots?

But I don't think it will ever happen. It's nice but in no way is it pay to win.

Slurg · April 2016

Speaking of assistants, why couldn't they offer a Crafter Apprentice assistant for 5,000 crowns that has 500 inventory slots (enough for at least one stack of every currrent crafting material) and is summonable on demand for material deposit and withdrawal?

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

You can't earn some of the outfits, pets or mounts in the game, you can earn equivalencies I guess but not exact versions.

I specifically said "outside from purely cosmetic items" (which mounts, pets and costumes are).

Yes and I agree but regarding equivalencies, there isn't an equivalent to the crafting bag being offered.
While ingame earned items are basically vanilla versions of items available in the CS bought with crowns from sub or B2P there isn't an ingame vanilla version of it that can remove or raise the cap on bag or bank space.
Hell I'd be happy if they raised bank space alone to 300 or so, they could at least raise it a few everytime they add more mats to combat the issue slightly.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · April 2016

I'd rather have an infinite wardrobe.

Leandor · April 2016

The point of tying crafting bags to subs is that there needs to be an incentive to stay subbed. A sub is something that can be used for the company outsude of direct revenue, in the sense that sub fees can be considered a baseline income whereas crown income is spot income only.

For anything like budget planning, spot income is something that you can use retroactively only (meaning only spend what you actually got) whereas base income allows advance budgeting (we will earn this and that in the next six months, so we can plan on spending that in advance and better schedule resources).

So from an economical point of view, sub income is much preferred for a business model that is based on continuous expansion like an MMO.

That said, crafting bags are such a huge incentive for all who actually do crafting to a certain extent, that I do understand the request well, especially for those that did spend crowns for access to DLC instead of subbing.

On the other hand, ZOS has from the very beginning of the B2P period said that they intend to add benefits for subscribers. Basically, those of us that put the trust in them and sub from start, now get rewarded for it. Those that didn't, have to pay the price.

I would not reduce this discussion to "I paid more". Consider ZOS's side of things as well.

Sallington · April 2016

Audigy wrote: »

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me really worry about this games community. There is so much poison and entitlement in this thread, it´s just crazy.

People who sub, see themselves as superior and the reason why ESO exists, which is a flawed logic as being a sub is a 10 bucks investment a month, an amount of money that a F2P user can easily overcome by buying a single cosmetic item or a DLC.
That elitism is always a problem at these type of F2P games. Those who invest feel superior to those, who do not, or better put, they feel like they need a reason to be treated better than everyone else, after all they pay their monthly fee or for char slots, bank space ...

I find that attitude very sad, as a game can not survive alone by those that sub, or use the shop. A game is a community and it requires everyone to contribute. Some will contribute with real money investments, others with a steady sub and again others don´t pay anything, but are still the ones who tank for you or trade an item with you.

There was a game once, one guy I knew was our main tank, he was full F2P, never invested and yet did a good job. One day, the company released something that made it easier for tanks, but it was a pay to use thing. He couldn´t pay, so he complained at the forum, just like the OP does here. He was insulted and called names, as it was in the eyes of the others, not ok that he had the beneifts as well, since he did not pay. In the end, he left the game and several others tanks followed him. Shortly after, more and more threads occurred, where people complained about the lack of good tanks, many of them were former elitists who felt superior as they paid.

So yes, trying to exclude others, just because you feel superior will never work out. One day, you might need exactly this person who you formerly insulted.

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

And this is why F2P is the cancer killing the MMO market/community at large.

Keep the subscriptions, keep everyone on equal footing. F2P and MMOs just do not work.

EDIT: Also, subscribers quite literally funded the console launch and F2P (Tamriel Unlimited) transition, so they pretty much are the reason ESO exists.

QuebraRegra · April 2016

I'm going to have to DEMAND that the 6 MONTH sub option be available to consoles with this change.

Thanks.

Drummerx04 · April 2016

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

The suggestion that the assistants should be the ESO Plus member perk made me laugh. There would be so many threads complaining about that if it was true!

Well, assuming that the complaints would come from subscribers who already purchased the assistants (which would be hilariously ironic considering they want us to sub after purchasing DLC), and it is too hard to simply issue crown refunds to the subscribers with the assistants, then they could add full vendor and banker benefits to ESO+ member assistants. i.e. access to guild banks and stores from anywhere.

The point was, there are plenty of benefits they could provide ESO+ members with a little creativity to make subs more appealing, without resorting to the thing that would literally free up 300+ inventory/bank slots for my characters.

Also, people are already willing to spend 5000 crowns so they can sell their stuff or use the bank in the wilderness. I can guarantee that MANY more people would spend 5000 crowns for the craft bag.

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me really worry about this games community. There is so much poison and entitlement in this thread, it´s just crazy.

People who sub, see themselves as superior and the reason why ESO exists, which is a flawed logic as being a sub is a 10 bucks investment a month, an amount of money that a F2P user can easily overcome by buying a single cosmetic item or a DLC.
That elitism is always a problem at these type of F2P games. Those who invest feel superior to those, who do not, or better put, they feel like they need a reason to be treated better than everyone else, after all they pay their monthly fee or for char slots, bank space ...

I find that attitude very sad, as a game can not survive alone by those that sub, or use the shop. A game is a community and it requires everyone to contribute. Some will contribute with real money investments, others with a steady sub and again others don´t pay anything, but are still the ones who tank for you or trade an item with you.

There was a game once, one guy I knew was our main tank, he was full F2P, never invested and yet did a good job. One day, the company released something that made it easier for tanks, but it was a pay to use thing. He couldn´t pay, so he complained at the forum, just like the OP does here. He was insulted and called names, as it was in the eyes of the others, not ok that he had the beneifts as well, since he did not pay. In the end, he left the game and several others tanks followed him. Shortly after, more and more threads occurred, where people complained about the lack of good tanks, many of them were former elitists who felt superior as they paid.

So yes, trying to exclude others, just because you feel superior will never work out. One day, you might need exactly this person who you formerly insulted.

In my opinion, everything in a shop should be free, free if you want to really play for it. Bag space can easily be unlocked by achievements or challenges in an MMO, there is no need to make them only available for those who invest, especially since the OP does invest in DLC´s, which is actually more money than those who pay a sub alone. In the end, it is quite sad that Elitism is so wide spread these days, games should be played together, but it seems like everyone want´s to gain an edge over the other, either by being a sub, a raider or some hero in pvp.

And this is why F2P is the cancer killing the MMO market/community at large.

Keep the subscriptions, keep everyone on equal footing. F2P and MMOs just do not work.

I suppose it's a good job this is B2P and not F2P.