Sharee wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Rapid Mending = 5% extra heals? i can get this with a couple cp.

This is an interesting point, as it allows to actually quantify the weakness of a heavy armor passive.

With 5 pieces of heavy, Rapid mending passive gives you 5% incoming healing, which is "worth" 15 CP points (you get 5,1% healing from Quick Recovery with 15 points)

With 5 pieces of light, Recovery passive gives you 20% increased magicka regen, which is "worth" 73 CP points (you get 20.1% magicka regen with 73 points into Arcanist)

One passive is worth 15 CP the other 73(!) CP.

From purely mathematical point, for the two passives to be balanced, Rapid mending with 5 heavy pieces would need to provide at least 13.2% bonus incoming healing (that is what you get from 73 points into Quick recovery).

(Of course the bigger picture is more complicated, on one hand you need to factor in better natural mitigation for heavy, on the other the higher relative value of magicka regen compared to healing received, etc. etc.)

My only counter is that there is exactly 0 ways to counter hp regen. This makes every % of hp regen more valuable than magicka/stamina regen.

IMHO the 2 changes that need to happen on HA is adjustment to passives to decrease the likelihood of CC proc'ing, and an increase to constitution values. Considering the change to regening stam while blocking, this with the reduced blocking cost synergize well with blocking sustain.

My recommendation would be to put the CC proc reduction in bracing and the constitution increase to rapid mending. this will drive the value of 5 pieces up and benefit for HA up.

The other thing I would recommend is that I think the armor buff from CP for LA and MA should be the same while HA should be at least 50% higher or HA should be the only one with a percentage while LA and MA should have different flat armor values.

That would go a long way to differentiate the armors, give some similar means of sustain but tied better to roles for the different armor, and make HA more meaning full for survivability.

Zanen wrote: »

I think heavy should generate ultimate when hit, per piece.

Bring some limited dynamic ultimate gain back into the game and give HA some sustain.

The bigger problem though is all the strong builds in the game derive their defense from the same stats as their damage. Sorc wards, magblade siphoning, stam dodge, everyone's utility, defensive and healing abilities cost primary resource and often scale with the same things that scale damage.

There isn't any benefit to not stacking everything into damage as a result, so we get this really restrictive meta where building a genuine tank is only useful in trials.

Immortal templars swinging a spear about their heads while spamming blazing shield? No, thanks... too OP

Xvorg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

My only counter is that there is exactly 0 ways to counter hp regen.

Disease used to cut HP regen in half in addition to its affect on healing. Did they change it?

I'm thinking about a heavy armor NB wearing Crest of Cyrodiil and using Soul Harvest whenever he can... not to mention the Befoul CP star...

Befoul and Soul Harvest both reduce healing received and does not impact health recovery. Am I missing something?

I do not necessarily agree with you, however I will say that if heavy armor gets a good buff and becomes on par with (or even surpasses) light or medium armor, expect a BIG rise in price for Nirnhoned and Sharpened traits.

You are all missing the point. HA looks cooler than LA and that is really all that matters...

The things that need to change with heavy armor passives.

• Better health recovery.
• Better resources gain when hit.
• Change the way mitigation works so people can go a little higher than what it currently has now.
• Maybe better health %.
• And God give more increase healing received like 14% or something. And I'm a DK and I don't mind it. When I see 7% healing received I was like "meh.".

In the end for me just double everything with the stats it has now. It would be nice to see that. Or 1.5 times more at that. It is simple math to calculate in the game and put in.

Rylana wrote: »

Penetration was nerfed severely with the champ revamp a month ago. You literally have to be in 5 LA + 100 champ points into the pen star + sharpened/nirn + destro staff to even get close to the spell pen we had just four weeks ago with no investment to CP at all.

Sidenote: Where are people getting the idea that penetration values are good right now? They are godawful, the worst they have ever been. if anything, this last balance change made HA even MORE attractive than it was before.

I believe you're mistaken. The previous CP system that granted a percentage increase in penetration did not actually do so--it granted a small, flat amount of penetration, and the tooltip was incorrect.

So, no, the CP changes did not nerf penetration at all--it buffed it substantially. It may look weaker on paper, but that's because it was never working as advertised before.

I knew I would get a lot of flame for posting this. However, you guys aren't thinking this through. There is no way they can buff ha without it superseding la. Currently, it mitigates a lot of damage. I have no problems absorbing damage with two pieces let alone five or seven. Ha with 501 cp points in crit resistance, hardy, and Elemental resistance absorbs a lot of damage. The most powerfull Wrecking blows and crystal frags become tickles. 1vx becomes much easier and that's not even using a shield.

Now, the problem comes with sustainability and damage. Wearing 5 ha you hit like a pillow and sustainability is weak. But isn't that the trade off? Do you people want your cake and eat it too? Seriously, you buff ha and la becomes pointless. Buff ha and I guarantee everyone will switch. The most tankiess vamp dks will become gods. Everyone will run ha with high sustainability and this game will become a sustain resource contest with low dps numbers. You think b****y and bsouls are tanky now imagine them in a buffed ha setup.

How could you possibly buff ha without indirectly neutering la?

hrothbern wrote: »

The choice between LA, MA and HA should be a real, valid CHOICE.

If the game mechanics balance from ZOS between LA, MA and HA would be perfect....
AND if the player base would have no special personal preferences towards any of those armor types....

The percentage used by players of LA, MA and HA would be close to 33%, 33% and 33%.

This is definitely not the case atm. Not in Vet 16 PVE and not in Vet 16 PVP.
So regardless any complicated theocrafting arguments, or simple opinion posts like OP:

As long as any armor type is used at a very low percentage as HA now, it is self-evident that the passives are too weak.

I think therefore that HA needs buffing. Some bigger buffs to start with and, anticipating some FOTM effects, later on some smaller buffs to tweak HA to balance.

For me HA is only balanced once HA users are between 20% and 40% of the population.

There is a flaw in these percentage in play expectations.

They are being put forth as if it's the armor benefits that determine popularity.

In fact, the benefits INFLUENCE popularity but a much bigger factor is player style.

Both LA and MA really serve attacking styles of various flavors well.

HA serves a defense style ll, tanking or just weathering damage.

I'MX many more players seem out the more aggressive or seemingly more active styles. TANKS don't have as many players as DPS or even healers.

So, IF HA were balanced in terms of power, you would not see in play even divisions. It should not be expected unless you feel tanks are as popular a role as dps.

It has been observed that when tanks are not needed, where it is possible to all dps and succeed, people drop tanking. That shows where the popularity goes when content allows CHOICE

After much play testing, HA needs something.

I have been testing x5 Mark of th Pariah set, x3 jewelry x2 heavy armor peices.

On my sorc, (keep in mind still wearing 5 light) with just Boundless active, I sit at 25k resist.

At 50% health I hit the cap, at execution range, my resist is high enough to prevent my opponent's armor penetration.

Essentially, while wearing light armor, I receive ALL the benefits of Heavy Armor, while STILL receiving all but the block cost reduction passives from heavy armor.

Long story short: LA can do everything heavy armor can do, and then some.

Attackopsn wrote: »

4/20 is over pal

It's never over, here in Colorado

Why do I get the feeling that players who want heavy armor buffed are viewing this from a pvp point, not pve? O.o

..the Bracing passive seems OP as it is, with 20% reduction to blocking cost, it renders Heavy Armor viable/optimal for a tank. I would like to know if any tanks go into vMOL without 5 pieces of Heavy Armor.

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that players who want heavy armor buffed are viewing this from a pvp point, not pve? O.o

..the Bracing passive seems OP as it is, with 20% reduction to blocking cost, it renders Heavy Armor viable/optimal for a tank. I would like to know if any tanks go into vMOL without 5 pieces of Heavy Armor.

The 5-item bonus is great and is what makes HA a must-have for any serious tank (i.e., if you're going to tank vMoL instead of tanking Wayrest Sewers).

But the other per-piece bonuses are very underwhelming. Just as I would never use less than 5p HA for vMoL, I would also never step into vMoL with 6p or 7p heavy. Even without the Undaunted stat bonuses, the per-piece bonuses for medium and light are so much better.

Contrast this with medium and light. There are many stamina DPS builds that call for 7p MA because that crit and sustain bonus outweighs the loss of the Undaunted bonus. The bonuses from going 5p->7p LA are actually useful (and are more useful than the 1p MA and 1p HA bonus), and the only reason why 7p LA isn't optimal is due to the loss of the Undaunted stats. But if you go 7p HA, not only do you lose the Undaunted bonus, you also get armor bonuses that are less useful than if you had gone 5/1/1.

And that is why I personally think that HA is underpowered. It's still powerful enough that 5p HA is a must-have for serious PvE tanking. But there's absolutely no reason why anyone would want to take 7p HA.

I knew I would get a lot of flame for posting this. However, you guys aren't thinking this through. There is no way they can buff ha without it superseding la. Currently, it mitigates a lot of damage. I have no problems absorbing damage with two pieces let alone five or seven. Ha with 501 cp using crit resistance, hardy, and

Armitas wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I knew I would get a lot of flame for posting this. However, you guys aren't thinking this through. There is no way they can buff ha without it superseding la. Currently, it mitigates a lot of damage.

Now, the problem comes with sustainability and damage. Wearing 5 ha you hit like a pillow and sustainability is weak. But isn't that the trade off? Do you people want your cake and eat it too?

The physical penetration in this game is trivially obtained. It's not a matter of having cake and eating it too, it's a matter of having cake at all. When your heavy armor is fully penetrated there is no cake, only diabeedus. That is not the case with light armor, you can penetrate the mitigation of light armor but it still retains the cake. You can even reach mit cap in LA and it also comes with a large dose of spell mit.

Wrong. Ha is not fully penetrated. in addition When you stack all points into hardy, elemental resistance, and crit resistance coupled with ha your a beast.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I knew I would get a lot of flame for posting this. However, you guys aren't thinking this through. There is no way they can buff ha without it superseding la. Currently, it mitigates a lot of damage. I have no problems absorbing damage with two pieces let alone five or seven. Ha with 501 cp points in crit resistance, hardy, and Elemental resistance absorbs a lot of damage. The most powerfull Wrecking blows and crystal frags become tickles. 1vx becomes much easier and that's not even using a shield.

Now, the problem comes with sustainability and damage. Wearing 5 ha you hit like a pillow and sustainability is weak. But isn't that the trade off? Do you people want your cake and eat it too? Seriously, you buff ha and la becomes pointless. Buff ha and I guarantee everyone will switch. The most tankiess vamp dks will become gods. Everyone will run ha with high sustainability and this game will become a sustain resource contest with low dps numbers. You think b****y and bsouls are tanky now imagine them in a buffed ha setup.

How could you possibly buff ha without indirectly neutering la?

Stop this. Heavy armor is NOT tanky almost all magic builds run dual legendary nirn swords for high spell pen and dmg turning 28K spell resistance into like 12K.but you wana know what is tanky though? Light armor and it's silly I can shield stack/ breath of life against a zerg and be a god, while if I decide to put STEEL on my chest I get punished by no resource sustain and a block penalty.

Yep I know you're scared that LA won't be FOTM, but logically speaking if you are wearing robes you are SUPPOSE to be squishy (this is like complaining that soldiers can take more shots than you can in war because they decided to wear gear and you didn't wear), but that's not the case in this game. Heck Medium armor is 3/4of heavy so you can reach the hard cap in it with all the stamina cost reduction and recovery passives.

Having high CP in heavy doesn't mean anything most of the CP would be spent trying to band aid fix heavy armors problems.

Your problem is not ha. Your problem is shield stacking and Bol Templars. Now imagine if they buffed ha to provide more dps and or sustain. Now you have sorcs and Templars iin ha shield stacking and Bol. Now you have unkillable vamp dks rocking ha.

There is no way to buff ha without it killing la. Buff amor and anti spell pen? Now la spell casters will tickle anyone in ha and ha becomes the new flotm. Buff sustain and dps? Now everyone flocks to ha for sustain and this games becomes a low dps sustain contest.

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that players who want heavy armor buffed are viewing this from a pvp point, not pve? O.o

..the Bracing passive seems OP as it is, with 20% reduction to blocking cost, it renders Heavy Armor viable/optimal for a tank. I would like to know if any tanks go into vMOL without 5 pieces of Heavy Armor.

Because who honestly has a problem in pve? Other than vet maelstrom, Pve difficulty in this game is a joke. IF you don't have 501 cps and gold gear, your issue is not ha its your not at cap yet. Get to cap, learn the mechanics, and if you prefer to play tank with ha, the game isn't that hard.