Should AoE caps be removed?

MoeCoastie · April 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

I tend to agree with the previous poster who stated that he believes the removal of aoe caps is not going to.remove or.discourage.ball groups. Ive played a few games similar to this and they all have zergs (both organized and pugged but not all had aoe caps. So reading peoples statements.that aoe caps have a direct effect on the existance of zergs doesnt make sense when I take into consideration what ive experienced in other games. In fact, the only common thing I can think of that they all share in common is the have a relatively high player cap or none at all. Logically, it is probably more acurate to say that the only factor that needs to be present for a zerg to exist is enough people to outnumber the current default group slots. People need to stop vilifying zergs. People are starting to sound like a bunch of ignorant bullies.

My friends, who like to zerg, have every right to play this game, have access to the same abilities and operate under the same rule sets as anyone else. You are sorely mistaken if you think your way is the right way, shows more skill, or makes you a bigger fan of this game.

That's exactly what we are trying to achieve. Right now groups of 6 and lower effectively operate under a completely different rule set than every other group they encounter.

MoeCoastie wrote: »

You guys think this is justified? I am witnissing and active campaign to eliminate a whole playstyle because, quite frankly, you dont like it. You fly the banner against lag and aoe caps but your agenda vs zergers has been well documented even prior to 1.6. Maybe that is why you cant take ZOS' official explaination on why the removal of aoe caps isnt feasable right now. I dont even keep up with zos current events like many of you do and im aware of their reasoning. Some of you who have anacknowledge their response respond like a bunch of rotten kids bitching at their parents.

"Nuh uh! Youre lying! Youre just being lazy and you dont care about me."

Culture around here is downright disfunctional and toxic. With all the problems that this game has it is still very fun (I only pvp). Whenever I have free time I play this game and genuinely enjoy my time. If you dont share the same opinion, and id hate to sound cliche, but maybe its time to move on. Not because youre a bad person or the game is bad...maybe your not good for eachother.

No one is trying to eliminate large group play. I play every PvP style in game from large group to solo, and tactical large group keep battles are some of the funnest experiences in Cyrodiil. Everyone, including ZOS, is trying to get rid of the "Ball Groups" that stack on the same pixels to abuse poor game mechanics and spam AOEs. You obviously don't know ZOS' official explanation for why they won't remove AOE caps. Why don't you take a look at the quote from @Samadhi below that contains ZOS' official explanation, from Wrobel, on why they won't remove them. We are just want to help ZOS solve the problem of ball groups, but they refuse to engage us or consider any feedback from the community.

Samadhi wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

You mean the last ESO Live with Eric Wrobel. He did not said that it will kill the performance. He said (Not exact wording): "Simply removing AoE Caps will be a non intelligent fix, i want intelligent fixes. So i try to implement ways that players need to move intelligent like spreading out. In this patch we try it with prox deto adjustments and VD set."

And he said (Not exact wording): "Removing AoE Caps will also unbalance the PvE experience of this game."

so he says
"in general with the aoe caps, since we have made quite a few changes to all the abilities, we want to see how those play out. And we are committed to solving this problem of people just balling up and running through"
"we're not saying that we would never ever modify the AoE caps in anyway, but we want to investigate more of these ability-based solutions to create more tactical play, instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'"

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

So Eric Wrobel feels that removing AoE caps would be a blanket and easy fix to a problem that has persisted for ages now,
but the team would rather spend more time tweaking abilities.

Good allocation of resources, no one is complaining about performance in the meanwhile.

"We want to test which band-aid is most absorbent, rather than pulling the bullet out"

ummm...did you watch the video? all those quotes and you conveniently left out something really important:

regarding removing AoE caps....
"We're not 100% sure it will fix, sort of, the core problem we're are looking to solve which is we dont want a group of people all stacking on one really small area"

He goes on to explain his prediction on what would happen if they just removed aoe caps...
"Then it would be 2 groups who are both stacking on the crown without caps and theyre just killing eachother even faster"

The last quote sort of reinforces my previous post when I gave my reasoning for why AoE caps would not change how people are stacking.

So no..he does not feel AoE caps is an easy blanket fix that would fix the problem of lag. Im not sure how you interpreted that from what he said. What he spent 15min explaining was that there is no easy blanket fix. They are trying to improve tactical play by adding more options to engage large groups rather just playing bumper cars with 2 big groups.

Just for a moment, lets imagine ZoS knows what theyre doing. Lets say they recieved the suggestion to remove AoE caps. Lets say they even saw that very detailed post crunching numbers on how removing AoE caps would statistically put smaller groups on a more competitive DPS/Heal level with larger groups. Now lets imagine they had a dev meeting discussing all the possible solutions (omg, even ones the community didnt think of!), crunched their own numbers with REAL data and after multiple meetings and phone conferences they came up with the conclusion that removing AoE caps would not have a dramatic enough improvement. and hell, they dont even like the zerg ball vs zerg ball meta and they feel implementing a no AoC cap would just reinforce that meta. Seems they are slowly trying to alter the way people engage in large scale combat so this bumper car game can evolve to something more aligned with their vision. You change peoples strats before changing their environment. Otherwise, the same behavior will persist in the new environment if people arent given alternate ways to fight.

Good try, but projected effect of just changing AoE caps is not the type of solution they are looking for.

Your claim that ZoS isnt engaging you on this issue? Hell, they went on for 15min over explaining their decision on why they dont want to make a knee jerk reaction move and remove AoE caps. For someone reason the community cant take rejection very well even if its put in the most PC way possible.

ToRelax · April 2016

Yes

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

I tend to agree with the previous poster who stated that he believes the removal of aoe caps is not going to.remove or.discourage.ball groups. Ive played a few games similar to this and they all have zergs (both organized and pugged but not all had aoe caps. So reading peoples statements.that aoe caps have a direct effect on the existance of zergs doesnt make sense when I take into consideration what ive experienced in other games. In fact, the only common thing I can think of that they all share in common is the have a relatively high player cap or none at all. Logically, it is probably more acurate to say that the only factor that needs to be present for a zerg to exist is enough people to outnumber the current default group slots. People need to stop vilifying zergs. People are starting to sound like a bunch of ignorant bullies.

My friends, who like to zerg, have every right to play this game, have access to the same abilities and operate under the same rule sets as anyone else. You are sorely mistaken if you think your way is the right way, shows more skill, or makes you a bigger fan of this game.

That's exactly what we are trying to achieve. Right now groups of 6 and lower effectively operate under a completely different rule set than every other group they encounter.

MoeCoastie wrote: »

You guys think this is justified? I am witnissing and active campaign to eliminate a whole playstyle because, quite frankly, you dont like it. You fly the banner against lag and aoe caps but your agenda vs zergers has been well documented even prior to 1.6. Maybe that is why you cant take ZOS' official explaination on why the removal of aoe caps isnt feasable right now. I dont even keep up with zos current events like many of you do and im aware of their reasoning. Some of you who have anacknowledge their response respond like a bunch of rotten kids bitching at their parents.

"Nuh uh! Youre lying! Youre just being lazy and you dont care about me."

Culture around here is downright disfunctional and toxic. With all the problems that this game has it is still very fun (I only pvp). Whenever I have free time I play this game and genuinely enjoy my time. If you dont share the same opinion, and id hate to sound cliche, but maybe its time to move on. Not because youre a bad person or the game is bad...maybe your not good for eachother.

No one is trying to eliminate large group play. I play every PvP style in game from large group to solo, and tactical large group keep battles are some of the funnest experiences in Cyrodiil. Everyone, including ZOS, is trying to get rid of the "Ball Groups" that stack on the same pixels to abuse poor game mechanics and spam AOEs. You obviously don't know ZOS' official explanation for why they won't remove AOE caps. Why don't you take a look at the quote from @Samadhi below that contains ZOS' official explanation, from Wrobel, on why they won't remove them. We are just want to help ZOS solve the problem of ball groups, but they refuse to engage us or consider any feedback from the community.

Samadhi wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

You mean the last ESO Live with Eric Wrobel. He did not said that it will kill the performance. He said (Not exact wording): "Simply removing AoE Caps will be a non intelligent fix, i want intelligent fixes. So i try to implement ways that players need to move intelligent like spreading out. In this patch we try it with prox deto adjustments and VD set."

And he said (Not exact wording): "Removing AoE Caps will also unbalance the PvE experience of this game."

so he says
"in general with the aoe caps, since we have made quite a few changes to all the abilities, we want to see how those play out. And we are committed to solving this problem of people just balling up and running through"
"we're not saying that we would never ever modify the AoE caps in anyway, but we want to investigate more of these ability-based solutions to create more tactical play, instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'"

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

So Eric Wrobel feels that removing AoE caps would be a blanket and easy fix to a problem that has persisted for ages now,
but the team would rather spend more time tweaking abilities.

Good allocation of resources, no one is complaining about performance in the meanwhile.

"We want to test which band-aid is most absorbent, rather than pulling the bullet out"

ummm...did you watch the video? all those quotes and you conveniently left out something really important:

regarding removing AoE caps....
"We're not 100% sure it will fix, sort of, the core problem we're are looking to solve which is we dont want a group of people all stacking on one really small area"

He goes on to explain his prediction on what would happen if they just removed aoe caps...
"Then it would be 2 groups who are both stacking on the crown without caps and theyre just killing eachother even faster"

The last quote sort of reinforces my previous post when I gave my reasoning for why AoE caps would not change how people are stacking.

So no..he does not feel AoE caps is an easy blanket fix that would fix the problem of lag. Im not sure how you interpreted that from what he said. What he spent 15min explaining was that there is no easy blanket fix. They are trying to improve tactical play by adding more options to engage large groups rather just playing bumper cars with 2 big groups.

Just for a moment, lets imagine ZoS knows what theyre doing. Lets say they recieved the suggestion to remove AoE caps. Lets say they even saw that very detailed post crunching numbers on how removing AoE caps would statistically put smaller groups on a more competitive DPS/Heal level with larger groups. Now lets imagine they had a dev meeting discussing all the possible solutions (omg, even ones the community didnt think of!), crunched their own numbers with REAL data and after multiple meetings and phone conferences they came up with the conclusion that removing AoE caps would not have a dramatic enough improvement. and hell, they dont even like the zerg ball vs zerg ball meta and they feel implementing a no AoC cap would just reinforce that meta. Seems they are slowly trying to alter the way people engage in large scale combat so this bumper car game can evolve to something more aligned with their vision. You change peoples strats before changing their environment. Otherwise, the same behavior will persist in the new environment if people arent given alternate ways to fight.

Good try, but projected effect of just changing AoE caps is not the type of solution they are looking for.

Your claim that ZoS isnt engaging you on this issue? Hell, they went on for 15min over explaining their decision on why they dont want to make a knee jerk reaction move and remove AoE caps. For someone reason the community cant take rejection very well even if its put in the most PC way possible.

Yep, ZOS spoke out about it, and now we know for certain it's a rubbish mechanic. Great. You see, there have been an awful lot of statements and changes been made in the past that simply don't make any sense from a gameplay perspective. AoE caps are a perfect example of this, and so are charge roots or rediculously powerful champion system. Or how about "People melt when they stand in WoE, nevermind HP regen outheals it", "Blocking should be situational, so you just lose your stamina regen whenever you tap it", "We're going to streamline all the buffs in the game, to increase diversity.", "After all the negative feedback on the last Bolt Escape nerf - we decided to do the same to dodge roll", "Templars are meant to defend their own house. Nevermind I took it away from you last year."

I just can't get behind anyone at this point still defending ZOS with the argument they might know better than the players after all...

MoeCoastie · April 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

I tend to agree with the previous poster who stated that he believes the removal of aoe caps is not going to.remove or.discourage.ball groups. Ive played a few games similar to this and they all have zergs (both organized and pugged but not all had aoe caps. So reading peoples statements.that aoe caps have a direct effect on the existance of zergs doesnt make sense when I take into consideration what ive experienced in other games. In fact, the only common thing I can think of that they all share in common is the have a relatively high player cap or none at all. Logically, it is probably more acurate to say that the only factor that needs to be present for a zerg to exist is enough people to outnumber the current default group slots. People need to stop vilifying zergs. People are starting to sound like a bunch of ignorant bullies.

My friends, who like to zerg, have every right to play this game, have access to the same abilities and operate under the same rule sets as anyone else. You are sorely mistaken if you think your way is the right way, shows more skill, or makes you a bigger fan of this game.

That's exactly what we are trying to achieve. Right now groups of 6 and lower effectively operate under a completely different rule set than every other group they encounter.

MoeCoastie wrote: »

You guys think this is justified? I am witnissing and active campaign to eliminate a whole playstyle because, quite frankly, you dont like it. You fly the banner against lag and aoe caps but your agenda vs zergers has been well documented even prior to 1.6. Maybe that is why you cant take ZOS' official explaination on why the removal of aoe caps isnt feasable right now. I dont even keep up with zos current events like many of you do and im aware of their reasoning. Some of you who have anacknowledge their response respond like a bunch of rotten kids bitching at their parents.

"Nuh uh! Youre lying! Youre just being lazy and you dont care about me."

Culture around here is downright disfunctional and toxic. With all the problems that this game has it is still very fun (I only pvp). Whenever I have free time I play this game and genuinely enjoy my time. If you dont share the same opinion, and id hate to sound cliche, but maybe its time to move on. Not because youre a bad person or the game is bad...maybe your not good for eachother.

No one is trying to eliminate large group play. I play every PvP style in game from large group to solo, and tactical large group keep battles are some of the funnest experiences in Cyrodiil. Everyone, including ZOS, is trying to get rid of the "Ball Groups" that stack on the same pixels to abuse poor game mechanics and spam AOEs. You obviously don't know ZOS' official explanation for why they won't remove AOE caps. Why don't you take a look at the quote from @Samadhi below that contains ZOS' official explanation, from Wrobel, on why they won't remove them. We are just want to help ZOS solve the problem of ball groups, but they refuse to engage us or consider any feedback from the community.

Samadhi wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

You mean the last ESO Live with Eric Wrobel. He did not said that it will kill the performance. He said (Not exact wording): "Simply removing AoE Caps will be a non intelligent fix, i want intelligent fixes. So i try to implement ways that players need to move intelligent like spreading out. In this patch we try it with prox deto adjustments and VD set."

And he said (Not exact wording): "Removing AoE Caps will also unbalance the PvE experience of this game."

so he says
"in general with the aoe caps, since we have made quite a few changes to all the abilities, we want to see how those play out. And we are committed to solving this problem of people just balling up and running through"
"we're not saying that we would never ever modify the AoE caps in anyway, but we want to investigate more of these ability-based solutions to create more tactical play, instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'"

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

So Eric Wrobel feels that removing AoE caps would be a blanket and easy fix to a problem that has persisted for ages now,
but the team would rather spend more time tweaking abilities.

Good allocation of resources, no one is complaining about performance in the meanwhile.

"We want to test which band-aid is most absorbent, rather than pulling the bullet out"

ummm...did you watch the video? all those quotes and you conveniently left out something really important:

regarding removing AoE caps....
"We're not 100% sure it will fix, sort of, the core problem we're are looking to solve which is we dont want a group of people all stacking on one really small area"

He goes on to explain his prediction on what would happen if they just removed aoe caps...
"Then it would be 2 groups who are both stacking on the crown without caps and theyre just killing eachother even faster"

The last quote sort of reinforces my previous post when I gave my reasoning for why AoE caps would not change how people are stacking.

So no..he does not feel AoE caps is an easy blanket fix that would fix the problem of lag. Im not sure how you interpreted that from what he said. What he spent 15min explaining was that there is no easy blanket fix. They are trying to improve tactical play by adding more options to engage large groups rather just playing bumper cars with 2 big groups.

Just for a moment, lets imagine ZoS knows what theyre doing. Lets say they recieved the suggestion to remove AoE caps. Lets say they even saw that very detailed post crunching numbers on how removing AoE caps would statistically put smaller groups on a more competitive DPS/Heal level with larger groups. Now lets imagine they had a dev meeting discussing all the possible solutions (omg, even ones the community didnt think of!), crunched their own numbers with REAL data and after multiple meetings and phone conferences they came up with the conclusion that removing AoE caps would not have a dramatic enough improvement. and hell, they dont even like the zerg ball vs zerg ball meta and they feel implementing a no AoC cap would just reinforce that meta. Seems they are slowly trying to alter the way people engage in large scale combat so this bumper car game can evolve to something more aligned with their vision. You change peoples strats before changing their environment. Otherwise, the same behavior will persist in the new environment if people arent given alternate ways to fight.

Good try, but projected effect of just changing AoE caps is not the type of solution they are looking for.

Your claim that ZoS isnt engaging you on this issue? Hell, they went on for 15min over explaining their decision on why they dont want to make a knee jerk reaction move and remove AoE caps. For someone reason the community cant take rejection very well even if its put in the most PC way possible.

Yep, ZOS spoke out about it, and now we know for certain it's a rubbish mechanic. Great. You see, there have been an awful lot of statements and changes been made in the past that simply don't make any sense from a gameplay perspective. AoE caps are a perfect example of this, and so are charge roots or rediculously powerful champion system. Or how about "People melt when they stand in WoE, nevermind HP regen outheals it", "Blocking should be situational, so you just lose your stamina regen whenever you tap it", "We're going to streamline all the buffs in the game, to increase diversity.", "After all the negative feedback on the last Bolt Escape nerf - we decided to do the same to dodge roll", "Templars are meant to defend their own house. Nevermind I took it away from you last year."

I just can't get behind anyone at this point still defending ZOS with the argument they might know better than the players after all...

Sorry, I do believe ZOS has a vision which they have been and continue to work toward that goal.

Historically and evident on this very forum, the player base has a hard enough time agreeing on anything let alone balance. If given those 2 choices, id pick zos over any one of these armchair devs you find on most gaming forums.

You tell me, what games have you designed? Why should I listen to you? Yes, qualifications do matter in the real world.

Elsir · April 2016

No

I'll be honest, I didn't read all 5 pages of replies so I'm blindly stating something that might have already been mentioned:

I voted no. Why? Because people want it to help break up zergs better. That's all well and good but you're not taking into account that removing AOE caps doesn't just remove those caps for damage abilities. It removes them for healing abilities as well. You'll get your shot at busting up zergs with your AOE damage, but while you try to do that, they'll AOE heal themselves into invincibility and then we're back to the bad days where zergs WERE invincible. 6 of the 24 in a raid running healing springs non stop anybody?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

No

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

I think his exact words were we have performance concerns as well and gives an example of one. Doesnt mean that is the only concern at least thats how I take it.

MoeCoastie · April 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

If by explains in detail you mean talked in unintelligible circles for about five minutes? Then talked about his pipe dream of zerg busting siege. Concluding with mumbling about PvE concerns. Then yes Wrobel explained it in explicit detail. Wrobel's reign of one button zerg busting solutions needs to end. In the original AOE cap poll, before they were introduced, the community told ZOS exactly what would happen if they were put in. They were warned about the ball groups spamming AOE that plagued GW2, but ignored us. Again with the VD set the community told ZOS exactly what would happen, and again we were correct about zergs abusing their easy button. AOE caps, Proxy Det, and VD all need to go, and nothing like them needs to be added ever again. They are not intelligent solutions and they do not work. They only succeed in compounding the problem.

To me all that programming talk is greek. I dont really understand what hes talking about.

He didn't use programming talk though. He just talked about all of the abilities that were getting changed, siege, and PvE concerns. He mentioned performance issues, especially with sets and abilities that proc off damage. Fair enough that's actually a valid point, and the only one he made in that interview. There is a simple solution for that though. Make the proc coefficient on all AOE abilities 0. If AOEs can't proc anything then that is no longer a concern.

@Wrobel If you want all of these posts, and the AOE cap riot signs on ESO Live to go away then just answer our questions, and open up some back an forth communication on the subject. One forum post that had 35 pages with one response from you, that didn't even talk about AOE caps, is nothing more than a slap in the face. Why did you add AOE caps to begin with, because they weren't always game? Why did you decide on the arbitrary numbers of 6 take full damage, the next 24 take 50%, and then up to 60 takes 25% damage? Exactly what issues, and concerns are you facing with their removal (in as much detail as you can give us)?

Every argument that I have seen for keeping AOE caps on damage abilities in game has multiple counters aren't that difficult to implement (other than the "but my zerg nerf" arguments). Concerned the removal will make trials to easy? I'll take a quote from @FENGRUSH "buff the *** mobs". Add a buff the trial and dungeon trash mobs that reduce AOE damage by X% until you get your desired TTK. Ability and set item proc would cause to much server strain? Set the proc coefficient to 0 on AOE abilities. Obviously that isn't a blanket solution due to abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Biting Jabs counting as AOEs, but these special case abilities can be changed on a case by case basis. With sets in the game like Leki's Focus those abilities should be reworked so that they don't count as AOEs anyway.

The best solution to end all of this would be to change the PTS for month while no other changes are on the table. Give us a PTS with no AOE caps on damage, 6 person cap on healing and buffs, and AOEs not able to proc anything. Then you advertise the hell out it. I guarantee if you announce this in game and on the forums you will see a pop locked PTS Cyrodiil, and that will give you all the data you could dream of.

At this point it honestly feels like the only reason ZOS won't remove AOE caps is because they don't want to admit that it was a bad idea to put them in game in the first place.

took me a little bit to find where you talked about coefficients.

So, basically your expert dev opinion is to not make damage effect armor procs? so that annoying little set that turns people to a statue upon death to give them another go at life. All I gotta use an AoE execute? Like if I dawnbreaker their arse they wont turn to a statue right? See, being someone like you isnt so hard.

Not only did you accomplish to put ZoS devs in their place. You just made all AoE the only option for dmg. The advantage of bypassing defensive armor procs is gamebreaking.

Taonnor · April 2016

Yes

Samadhi wrote: »

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

And these sentence makes me angry. Around 90% of the forum community wants to remove aoe caps and he say "it is an easy fix", nope i want VD and deto. That is .... arghh

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

At the moment the cap is 60. Ey in my hole eso live i never hit 60 peoples with aoe. This is *** what @Wrobel said. And why must secondary effects hit unlimited? We only want to remove that damage falloff with removing aoe caps.

MoeCoastie · April 2016

Taonnor wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

And these sentence makes me angry. Around 90% of the forum community wants to remove aoe caps and he say "it is an easy fix", nope i want VD and deto. That is .... arghh

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

At the moment the cap is 60. Ey in my hole eso live i never hit 60 peoples with aoe. This is *** what @Wrobel said. And why must secondary effects hit unlimited? We only want to remove that damage falloff with removing aoe caps.

The quotes you reference are not quotes from Wrobel. They are someone's interpretation, with a bit of a spin, of things he talked about. So basically, the dude putting out false quotes is pissing you off.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2016

Yes

this has been talked to death

remove them, yes, but its getting tiring to see threads about it

Samadhi · April 2016

Yes

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

And these sentence makes me angry. Around 90% of the forum community wants to remove aoe caps and he say "it is an easy fix", nope i want VD and deto. That is .... arghh

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

At the moment the cap is 60. Ey in my hole eso live i never hit 60 peoples with aoe. This is *** what @Wrobel said. And why must secondary effects hit unlimited? We only want to remove that damage falloff with removing aoe caps.

The quotes you reference are not quotes from Wrobel. They are someone's interpretation, with a bit of a spin, of things he talked about. So basically, the dude putting out false quotes is pissing you off.

17:25 for the timestamp for the whole ramble I quoted.
The sentence that the poster references as making him angry is around 17:51-17:57, if you would like to get really specific.

AoE caps incentivize people stacking up in the way they do now -- it provides a damage mitigation buff for doing so.
ZOS does not want to remove that buff unless absolutely necessary, they want to explore more ability-based counters to it.

Muizer · April 2016

No

ToRelax wrote: »

I just can't get behind anyone at this point still defending ZOS with the argument they might know better than the players after all...

Well you do not have to agree with how ZoS are going about trying to balance the game. I know I don't believe for a second you can achieve balance by tuning abilities alone, for instance. But that doesn't mean the removal of AoE caps is the cure-all that many people make it out to be.

MoeCoastie · April 2016

Samadhi wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

And these sentence makes me angry. Around 90% of the forum community wants to remove aoe caps and he say "it is an easy fix", nope i want VD and deto. That is .... arghh

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

At the moment the cap is 60. Ey in my hole eso live i never hit 60 peoples with aoe. This is *** what @Wrobel said. And why must secondary effects hit unlimited? We only want to remove that damage falloff with removing aoe caps.

The quotes you reference are not quotes from Wrobel. They are someone's interpretation, with a bit of a spin, of things he talked about. So basically, the dude putting out false quotes is pissing you off.

17:25 for the timestamp for the whole ramble I quoted.
The sentence that the poster references as making him angry is around 17:51-17:57, if you would like to get really specific.

AoE caps incentivize people stacking up in the way they do now -- it provides a damage mitigation buff for doing so.
ZOS does not want to remove that buff unless absolutely necessary, they want to explore more ability-based counters to it.

Why are you conveniently leaving out things he said that directly conflict with your interpretation? Look at the post at the top of this page.

@ 11:09 in the same video:
"We're not 100% sure it will fix, sort of, the core problem we're are looking to solve which is we dont want a group of people all stacking on one really small area"

He directly contradicts everything you just said in your last paragraph and is the reason why theyve chosen to the route theyve decided to take. When listening to the entirety of his interview, you can easily see youre taking your quotes out of context.

Someone stated he was ranting? Again, if you listen to the entirety of his interview its basic standard format.

Main idea is stated around 11min mark...
They do not believe aoe caps will fix the issue, instead they are trying to adjust things that will have a greater impact.

He then goes on to support his main idea and elaborates on some issues and solutions theyve come up with. The mistake youre making is you think its a comprehensive list of things.

For some reason youve taken the summery portion of his interview and totally take it out of context

RAGUNAnoOne · April 2016

Yes

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I voted no but I really meant yes - I feel it's time we tried some reverse psychology on ZOS...

Just everyone vote no if they think we like AOE caps they will remove them

Too late for me to figure this out though...

Samadhi · April 2016

Yes

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MoeCoastie wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

instead of just doing a blanket sort of easy fix of 'oh yeah, we'll just put everything at unlimited targets'

And these sentence makes me angry. Around 90% of the forum community wants to remove aoe caps and he say "it is an easy fix", nope i want VD and deto. That is .... arghh

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wrobel clearly talks about performance concerns in the very first minute of that ESO live interview with him.

The only performance concerns he mentioned was with abilities being able to proc secondary effects on an unlimited number of targets. As I said earlier in this thread the solution to that is simple. Change AOE proc coefficients to 0.

At the moment the cap is 60. Ey in my hole eso live i never hit 60 peoples with aoe. This is *** what @Wrobel said. And why must secondary effects hit unlimited? We only want to remove that damage falloff with removing aoe caps.

The quotes you reference are not quotes from Wrobel. They are someone's interpretation, with a bit of a spin, of things he talked about. So basically, the dude putting out false quotes is pissing you off.

17:25 for the timestamp for the whole ramble I quoted.
The sentence that the poster references as making him angry is around 17:51-17:57, if you would like to get really specific.

AoE caps incentivize people stacking up in the way they do now -- it provides a damage mitigation buff for doing so.
ZOS does not want to remove that buff unless absolutely necessary, they want to explore more ability-based counters to it.

Why are you conveniently leaving out things he said that directly conflict with your interpretation? Look at the post at the top of this page.

@ 11:09 in the same video:
"We're not 100% sure it will fix, sort of, the core problem we're are looking to solve which is we dont want a group of people all stacking on one really small area"

He directly contradicts everything you just said in your last paragraph and is the reason why theyve chosen to the route theyve decided to take. When listening to the entirety of his interview, you can easily see youre taking your quotes out of context.
...

My paragraph stated that AoE caps provide players with incentive for stacking up via the resulting damage mitigation, and that ZOS does not want to remove that incentive unless absolutely necessary, and instead wants to provide ability-based counters.

Your quote expresses that they are not 100% sure removing the bonus provided for stacking up will actually stop players from stacking up. He also refers to people stacking on one small area (such as AoE radius) as the 'core problem.'

If ZOS actively wanted to remove the encouragement they are currently providing for players to stack in this way, the bonus provided for stacking in this way would already be gone. They want to keep that encouragement in game unless they feel it is absolutely necessary to remove it, and work on making ability-based counters to the playstyle instead.

MoeCoastie wrote: »

...
For some reason youve taken the summery portion of his interview and totally take it out of context

Utilized a quotation of his own summary of his arguments to provide a summary of his arguments.
If you feel he misrepresented his own arguments in his summary, that is not an issue of me falsifying quotes.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

No

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

No, zergs just turn into focus targeting rather than AOE another group down

And what the hell does that have to do with zergballs paintrains and bombgroups viability ?
10 people can gang up on someone regardless.
It called being outnumbered.

The problem people have is they cant kill ballgroups, paintrains and zergballs....because the defense is too strong when clustered together.
That defense is 100% dependant on AoE mitigation and heals.
If there is no AoE mitigation and heals.....these groups cant exist.

Explain to me how they can exist in a single target environment ?
They cant.
/end discussion

ToRelax · April 2016

Yes

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

No, zergs just turn into focus targeting rather than AOE another group down

And what the hell does that have to do with zergballs paintrains and bombgroups viability ?
10 people can gang up on someone regardless.
It called being outnumbered.

The problem people have is they cant kill ballgroups, paintrains and zergballs....because the defense is too strong when clustered together.
That defense is 100% dependant on AoE mitigation and heals.
If there is no AoE mitigation and heals.....these groups cant exist.

Explain to me how they can exist in a single target environment ?
They cant.
/end discussion

So... how exactly do you focus someone inside/at the back of a ball of 20 enemy players? And why exactly would you take away a basic tool designed to combat larger groups?

OtarTheMad · April 2016

Yes

Xsorus · April 2016

Yes

Nidwin wrote: »

20 vs 60 means being outnumbered 3 to 1 (300 AAO), even in Warhammer these kind of odds were impossible to overcome, except if those 60 were compeltely incompetent or 20 in full decked WF vs 60 in anihilator gear.

For a decent assist train to work tanks need to be able to guard mdps and healers need to be able to select who they want to single target heal and group heal and cleanse. All this isn't possible in this new generation of games with this random AoE stuff for everything, not linked to your group.

As I said before I'm not against the removal of AoE caps, but this isn't going to resolve anything because the tactics that folks think is going to work to be able to fight higher numbers is going to be used against them by those organised higher numbers.
As I also wrote just above, PUGs always spread up or become rapidly spread out. It's organised guild/alliance groups that can turtle and ballzerg, not PUGs.

That's not entirely true; we ran 2 warrior priests, 2 bws, 2 knights and demolished the hell out of some 60 man zergs in warhammer online... With 20 people you could of easily *** on a Zerg in war

Rune_Relic · April 2016

No

ToRelax wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

No, zergs just turn into focus targeting rather than AOE another group down

And what the hell does that have to do with zergballs paintrains and bombgroups viability ?
10 people can gang up on someone regardless.
It called being outnumbered.

The problem people have is they cant kill ballgroups, paintrains and zergballs....because the defense is too strong when clustered together.
That defense is 100% dependant on AoE mitigation and heals.
If there is no AoE mitigation and heals.....these groups cant exist.

Explain to me how they can exist in a single target environment ?
They cant.
/end discussion

So... how exactly do you focus someone inside/at the back of a ball of 20 enemy players? And why exactly would you take away a basic tool designed to combat larger groups?

You come back with 20 players I guess and have a good fight.
Its not a ball (they cant share buffs)...its 20 individual players.
Besides if you read my post I offered a compromise.

option 1 (Current Mess)....everyone hits everyone in primetime the server is overloaded. LAG CENTRAL

option 2 (Alternative).....if you are at pop cap you get single target. If you have no population you get much higher target cap.
I wouldnt have suggested such a thing if I was anti godmode.
My main objective is NO LAG!

See that...you are vastly outnumbered (ie campaign population) you can unleash bomb groups.
If you vastly outnumber everyone else...you get no AoE power perks at all.
No more buff campaigns.
No more gate camping.
No more zergsballs, bombgroups etc in prime time unless the server population can handle it.

ToRelax · April 2016

Yes

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

No, zergs just turn into focus targeting rather than AOE another group down

And what the hell does that have to do with zergballs paintrains and bombgroups viability ?
10 people can gang up on someone regardless.
It called being outnumbered.

The problem people have is they cant kill ballgroups, paintrains and zergballs....because the defense is too strong when clustered together.
That defense is 100% dependant on AoE mitigation and heals.
If there is no AoE mitigation and heals.....these groups cant exist.

Explain to me how they can exist in a single target environment ?
They cant.
/end discussion

So... how exactly do you focus someone inside/at the back of a ball of 20 enemy players? And why exactly would you take away a basic tool designed to combat larger groups?

You come back with 20 players I guess and have a good fight.
Its not a ball (they cant share buffs)...its 20 individual players.
Besides if you read my post I offered a compromise.

option 1 (Current Mess)....everyone hits everyone in primetime the server is overloaded. LAG CENTRAL

option 2 (Alternative).....if you are at pop cap you get single target. If you have no population you get much higher target cap.
I wouldnt have suggested such a thing if I was anti godmode.
My main objective is NO LAG!

See that...you are vastly outnumbered (ie campaign population) you can unleash bomb groups.
If you vastly outnumber everyone else...you get no AoE power perks at all.
No more buff campaigns.
No more gate camping.
No more zergsballs, bombgroups etc in prime time unless the server population can handle it.

So you think when there are two raids who both have access to a mechanic that makes them nearly immune against damage, they will just both agree not to use it and spread out? I mean, that's not what we've seen in the past, is it?
And then you somehow seems to assume decreasing the target cap will somehow also decrease server load. If you let the AoE skills in after all but with a target cap of one - guess what, they are still AoEs, and the server has to determine who was hit by it, that is who of all the players around was closest, and wether that person was also inside the radius at all. Idk how much that has to do with the lag, but I'm pretty sure your compromise wouldn't help a lot.

LatinLegacy · April 2016

No

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

ToRelax · April 2016

Yes

LatinLegacy wrote: »

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

But this porposal would make AoE even weaker... what's your argument?

Merlight · April 2016

Yes

LatinLegacy wrote: »

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

Then all we need is an add-on that floods the screen with big splat numbers. Case closed.

On a more serious note, you seem to be seeking safety in numbers. Then ESOTU is exactly the game for you.

LatinLegacy · April 2016

No

ToRelax wrote: »

LatinLegacy wrote: »

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

But this porposal would make AoE even weaker... what's your argument?

To prevent mindless AOE spams by everyone in the game. Which is exactly is going to happen if the AOE cap was removed & no adjustment was made to the damage output that AOE's already have. Almost everyone would be running the strongest AOE skills & builds possible. That is not the direction the game needs to go.

LatinLegacy · April 2016

No

Merlight wrote: »

LatinLegacy wrote: »

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

Then all we need is an add-on that floods the screen with big splat numbers. Case closed.

On a more serious note, you seem to be seeking safety in numbers. Then ESOTU is exactly the game for you.

As a 2H/DW stamina based nightblade, that would be a no lol. I usually operate on my own & when I am in a group, my role is to burst down siege operators & burn down sieges. The only AOE skill I have on my two bars is Razor Caltrops.

Taonnor · April 2016

Yes

LatinLegacy wrote: »

To prevent mindless AOE spams by everyone in the game. Which is exactly is going to happen if the AOE cap was removed & no adjustment was made to the damage output that AOE's already have. Almost everyone would be running the strongest AOE skills & builds possible. That is not the direction the game needs to go.

Now i come and say if the peoples realize that is aoe is still hurting if they stack, should they not stop to stack or try to avoid stay too close? Should they not remind that "staying in this chocke point could be a problem?"

I say your right. In the first days the players will be play all aoe and it will be the best, but sooner or later the players begins to try avoid that aoe. And then we need strong single target assist instead of aoe. Is this not the vision we want?

Xsorus · April 2016

Yes

LatinLegacy wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

LatinLegacy wrote: »

I voted no but I would only vote yes IF the AOE skills of all sorts have diminishing returns based on the amount of players targeted by the skill. So saying hitting 10 targets with a damage skill would do less damage than hitting 5 targets with the same skill. Let's be honest, the only " real " reason why MOST people want AOE caps removed is so they can spam big AOE skills as much as possible just to see all of those numbers flood their screen

But this porposal would make AoE even weaker... what's your argument?

To prevent mindless AOE spams by everyone in the game. Which is exactly is going to happen if the AOE cap was removed & no adjustment was made to the damage output that AOE's already have. Almost everyone would be running the strongest AOE skills & builds possible. That is not the direction the game needs to go.

Generally speaking

Games usually worked like this

PBAE Spells = Highest Damage because most risk
Ranged AOE Spells = Less Damage then Ranged Single Target Spells against a single target..More damage against 2 targets (total damage)
Ranged Single Target Spells = Slightly less then PBAE spells in terms of damage..but Ranged and Single Target.

Generally speaking the AOE and PBAE would force the Targets to spread out and thus Single Target Spells would be used

If AOEs are being used in this game against multiple targets..They're actually doing their Function properly....

KenaPKK · April 2016

Yes

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

Congratulations! You have a sig worthy quote!

Except that his quote is outright wrong, and the thread that he linked is ridiculous.

Zergs would actually be even stronger in a single target environment because there would be zero chance of a smaller force focus firing them down before the zerg focus fires down the smaller force. Any zerg casualties would also be ressed up immediately. AoE threats deter zergs. In this game, AoE caps mitigate that threat and make zergs safer. A single target environment would take that to the extreme and make the zergs invulnerable.

This whole argument is ridiculous. The question is should AoE caps be removed. The answer is yes, for the game's health, they should be. Any other answer comes from someone who is either uninformed or who crutches on AoE caps to protect them.

Does zos have the resources to do so? We don't know. Probably not, but that is beside the point.

The fact of the matter is they shouldn't have been implemented in the first place, which the community told zos back in the day. In order for this mmo to have any long term hardcore PvP playerbase, AoE caps have to go because they dumb down the game and pander to casual players. And in the long term, it's the hardcore players that pay the bills. If zos keeps pushing them away, they will eventually migrate to other games, and this one will die like so many others before it.

You can only make money selling expansion packs to casual PvEers for so long before they move on to other games or hobbies.

Joy_Division · April 2016

Yes

KenaPKK wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

Congratulations! You have a sig worthy quote!

Except that his quote is outright wrong, and the thread that he linked is ridiculous.

Which is why the quote is on his sig

blabafat · April 2016

Yes

It's only logical that they are removed.

ZoS is trying to fix lag. Well, what causes lag? PEOPLE STACKED UP IN THE SAME PLACE (Zerg)

Now...why do they stack up in the same place? It's because they are rewarded for doing so. Dynamic ulti gen, which was an advantage that the smaller numbers had over the larger, was removed. AP used to be a thing for zergers, but that was changed, rightfully so. AoE Caps however, still exist. You take less damage by stacking up, which results in a laggier environment.

Ask WHY ZoS. Ask WHY. You want to fix lag? Take out the causes first. Your inability to do so has been present in many other situations. Hardened Ward was OP? Nerf ALL Shields.