Is the real problem with "OP Skills" actually a low defense, high burst meta?

Inarre · April 2016

Recently, i made a similar thread that was unfortunately closed due to people reading a book by its cover... So, i attempt once more (and more blatantly) to begin the same discussion, this time with limited responses to discourage people from bringing this discussion off topic.

dsalter · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

the issue goes hand in hand, high power abilities and numbers in bursts encourage the meta.

timidobserver · April 2016

The most I can agree with is that ZOS has had a terrible time balancing the game since they got rid of soft caps. It's been a constant case of things either vastly over-performing or under-performing. Probably 60% of the overperforming issues come from the fact that, even while running a full glass cannon build with no sustain built into it, people can spam stuff almost endlessly.

eliisra · April 2016

Strength of most defensive skills and abilities are also tied to your main dmg attributes. You get bigger heals, shield, block and dodge AND more dmg, stacking one stat. What should be "glass house" builds are also builds with the best defences.

But most action based MMORPG's these days have this ridiculous burst meta. Defensive builds getting weaker every expansion. I've been playing BDO as well since it launched and that game is even worse when it comes to burst and instakills. You cant break cc's at all while possible to die in 2 seconds from back attack combos. Pretty sure games like Neverwinter has crazy short TTK to, or it had back when I played it.

I think it's because gaming developers notice the insane amount of money online fps/battle arena type games are making. So they try to copy that combat style. But the more traditional MMORPG crowd doesn't like it. Makes me miss turn based combat 90's roleplay style lol.

KatzMainTank · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

Of course there's imbalance. That's why a large portion if the builds being used in this patch, and prior ones, are 80% identical. Perhaps the way a player uses those particular skills vary, yes, but that has a lot to do with the given situation.

I compare ESO skill balance to be in close formulation with that being used by Triple A FPS titles. There's always one cookie-cutter setup with various and more importantly, MINOR, variants brought to the table by the community. There's always that one gun or armor set or character that is superior enough to be preferable over the rest.

Had ZoS stuck with the traditional ES character creation, selecting skill lines would have replaced class partitioning and placed more emphasis on actual balance between skills than between resource pools.

The problem is the "meta" is too restrained within the parameters of a class format to allow any balancing to take place that feels proper BUT still fits within those boxed classes. The matter of burst versus defense will only go so far before breaking that mold all together.

Sure you can "play the way you want to play" as they said, but eventually you'll play the way everyone else does. Throwing sets around and adding group damage to skills that aren't even AoE based by nature of the description is lazy and insulting. Then again this game is in it's infancy, so hopefully big changes happen soon before something similar done right comes along and devours us all in it's glorious jaws of enjoyable experience.

lolo_01b16_ESO · April 2016

In my opinion the main issue is that zos weakens defensive mechanics with every patch. Whenever there is a build that allows people to survive for a long time while outnumbered it gets nerfed, even if your own offensive is weak in order to get good defensive.
Just think of:
- blinding flashes / cinder storm (changed into offensive skills)
- defensive jewelery enchants (mitigation provided by them was reduced by a lot, ~70% as far as I remember)
- scales (limited to 4 hits)
- magicka : hp ratio (bonus hp got cut down from 50% to 10%)
- ball of lightning (increased costs on multiple casts, shorter duration of absorb effect)
- dodge roll (increased costs on multiple rolls)
- breath of life + templar healing passives (number of targets reduced, heal on injured targets reduced, total healing reduced)
- cloak (blocked from using while revealed)

CP5 · April 2016

Other (Explain)

eliisra wrote: »

Strength of most defensive skills and abilities are also tied to your main dmg attributes. You get bigger heals, shield, block and dodge AND more dmg, stacking one stat. What should be "glass house" builds are also builds with the best defences.

But most action based MMORPG's these days have this ridiculous burst meta. Defensive builds getting weaker every expansion. I've been playing BDO as well since it launched and that game is even worse when it comes to burst and instakills. You cant break cc's at all while possible to die in 2 seconds from back attack combos. Pretty sure games like Neverwinter has crazy short TTK to, or it had back when I played it.

I think it's because gaming developers notice the insane amount of money online fps/battle arena type games are making. So they try to copy that combat style. But the more traditional MMORPG crowd doesn't like it. Makes me miss turn based combat 90's roleplay style lol.

Agree with that first paragraph. It doesn't help that most damage skills come with some form of debuff, self buff, cc or something else. Problem is you need high damage since it influences most everything else, and things like resource management and control come from cp and damage skills. Its you are gimping yourself for not stacking damage.

Speely · April 2016

Is the issue that the current meta is low defense high burst builds that are getting obliterated by hard hitters?

Damage should be able to outpace mitigation/healing vs anyone not devoted to defense. If someone chooses to make a high-damage build, they should in no way expect to be able to handle the burst of others built similarly.

The above opinion is based upon the idea that damage should be dangerous in order to have a steady stream of winners and losers. That said, building for burst should never be the only viable option in a game that supposes diversity. A range of viability between defense and offense that sees different builds enjoy success in different situations and in different company is ideal in a social game. The key is not letting ANY ONE build maximize both things and instead having a system where the two dynamics are mutually exclusive at their extremes and limit one another fairly across the spectrum of damage vs mitigation otherwise.

As it stands now, there are pretty much just a lot of glass cannons complaining about being glassy vs certain things even though they have general mitigation options that rival the iron noodles who have next-to-no role in PvP since they can't burst anything down and have no other role to fill within the meta other than annoyingly-extended AP surrender.

technohic · April 2016

Other (Explain)

All has to do with no stat caps yet limited health and defenses.

IcyDeadPeople · April 2016

Magicka sorc has the capacity to be both quite tanky and deal extremely high damage, due to shields that scale off max magicka.

However, it's challenging to find a balance in dps and tankiness for other kinds of builds. Have spent a lot on respecs and trying different gear sets, etc., but I keep finding I can either be super tanky and it becomes extremely difficult to kill anyone 1v1, or I can kill people but I have to work very hard at roll dodging / cloak / using LOS to stay alive.

Very little experience with endgame PVE, just commenting on my own attempts to figure out a more balanced pvp build.

Vangy · April 2016

Other (Explain)

1. Defense/healing needs to be decoupled from offensive stats.

What does this mean Vangy???

Well take my sorc for example. I stack 40k magicka with 3.5k spell damage. I heal like a god and have a godly shield as well. Good defence = good offence.

Take my DK for example. Stack 40k stamina with 4k weapon damage + 1.5k regen. I hit like a god and can rolly polly around with vigor + rally indefinitely kiting and Los-ing to full HP.

You get the idea now. Damage builds are giving up nothing for getting that damage. One needs to make a trade-off for damage and soft caps are an artifical way of enforcing this. We dont need softcaps. We just need to ensure that all shields/heals are based of things like health/spell resist/phy resist etc. AkA, defensive skills need to be based around defensive stats and offensive skills should be based off offensive stats. This way, we only have so many armor slots and attribute points so it enforces a trade off without being limited by hard caps/soft caps. You could stack a gazillion damage but you wont be able to hit a 15k hardened war or vigor back to full hp. Or you could be a godly perma block tank but you wont have the burst damage. Right now, there's very little reason to go for a tanky sustain build becuase most offensive builds have SOOOO much healing an shields such that you are never going to kill anyone if your on a tanky build short of duelling. This needs to be fixed.

Anti_Virus · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

Thanks to proxy det and VD even solo players are getting nuked by proxy/VD set up like this is ISIS or something.....

Speely · April 2016

Is the issue that the current meta is low defense high burst builds that are getting obliterated by hard hitters?

Vangy wrote: »

1. Defense/healing needs to be decoupled from offensive stats.

What does this mean Vangy???

Well take my sorc for example. I stack 40k magicka with 3.5k spell damage. I heal like a god and have a godly shield as well. Good defence = good offence.

Take my DK for example. Stack 40k stamina with 4k weapon damage + 1.5k regen. I hit like a god and can rolly polly around with vigor + rally indefinitely kiting and Los-ing to full HP.

You get the idea now. Damage builds are giving up nothing for getting that damage. One needs to make a trade-off for damage and soft caps are an artifical way of enforcing this. We dont need softcaps. We just need to ensure that all shields/heals are based of things like health/spell resist/phy resist etc. AkA, defensive skills need to be based around defensive stats and offensive skills should be based off offensive stats. This way, we only have so many armor slots and attribute points so it enforces a trade off without being limited by hard caps/soft caps. You could stack a gazillion damage but you wont be able to hit a 15k hardened war or vigor back to full hp. Or you could be a godly perma block tank but you wont have the burst damage. Right now, there's very little reason to go for a tanky sustain build becuase most offensive builds have SOOOO much healing an shields such that you are never going to kill anyone if your on a tanky build short of duelling. This needs to be fixed.

Agreed. This is probably the most sensible approach given the other systems already in play. Oddly, it could also potentially create potential for hybrids in PvP since there might be a place for those who sacrifice high dps and high mitigation for moderate "both," excelling at nothing per-se but gaining versaility in exchange.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · April 2016

Other (Explain)

Speely wrote: »

Agreed. This is probably the most sensible approach given the other systems already in play. Oddly, it could also potentially create potential for hybrids in PvP since there might be a place for those who sacrifice high dps and high mitigation for moderate "both," excelling at nothing per-se but gaining versaility in exchange.

If a game is balanced well, Jack of All Trades builds will not perform well. Anytime that they are competitive in a game, it is due to a clever use of exploiting an imbalance in the game. If you can be tanky enough to not die, while beast enough to kill people then there is some kind of mechanic that is OP.

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

Well skills are "OP" because of the burst META cause all a player needs to do is pool everything into one stat and they not only get ridiculously powerful DPS and skills/spells but also the best defense in the game. It's no secret that damage shields are the most powerful defense in the game with dodge rolling right behind it while actually just absorbing, blocking, or mitigating what ever you wanna call it is way behind the 2.

Pool all your attribute points and enchantments into magicka get crazy magical DPS and over powered damage shields.
Pool all your attribute points and enchantments into stamina get crazy physical DPS and can dodge roll alot (all though easily countered by roots and other disabling effects).

So it's not the skills are too OP just seeing how pooling everything into DPS not only gets you the OP skills but also the best defense. Which I personally believe ZOS needs to scrap the whole max resources equal max damage. Yes DPS will drop but would balance out the game alot and possible stop the burst META that's going on whihc is destroying the game.

Guess now I'll wait for the DPS players rage post saying this and that about my opinion about resources shouldn't give damage.

Side note some others are making good points about trade offs and all that. I am a tank I traded off DPS such as medium armor for heavy armor for what I assumed was supposed to be the best defense in the game and be NEAR un-killable and able to take a good bit of damage even with out blocking.

Like you assume 28.3K resistance both physical and magical (armor) and a flat 15% reduction to physical and magical damage (thanks to CP) and 6% reduction to all damage (racial passive) you be able to soak in a bit of damage with out having to block for a bit.

Burning_Talons · April 2016

Fear and Hardened Ward are OP and deals 0 damage

GreenSoup2HoT · April 2016

Other (Explain)

There is many problem's.

-Heavy Armour is garbage.
-Magicka Detonation is scaling way to hard and used against small scale.
-CP is still broken.
-Weapon/Spell damage stacking is broken (cryodill debuff changes mean nothing when damage is increased as well.)
-Lag is always going 2 step's forward and 3 step's back
-New gear set's are just bad in my opinion. It's a problem when everyone is generally using the same *** builds. Create some variety. Tweak abilities.

-Just general weekly balance to make pvp better. Something that need's to be done.

Inarre · April 2016

Some of these comments are getting off topic please keep this on topic. This isnt about lag or non damage abilities.

Speely · April 2016

Is the issue that the current meta is low defense high burst builds that are getting obliterated by hard hitters?

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Speely wrote: »

Agreed. This is probably the most sensible approach given the other systems already in play. Oddly, it could also potentially create potential for hybrids in PvP since there might be a place for those who sacrifice high dps and high mitigation for moderate "both," excelling at nothing per-se but gaining versaility in exchange.

If a game is balanced well, Jack of All Trades builds will not perform well. Anytime that they are competitive in a game, it is due to a clever use of exploiting an imbalance in the game. If you can be tanky enough to not die, while beast enough to kill people then there is some kind of mechanic that is OP.

I disagree. If a game is balanced well, a Jack of All Trades will not be able to do any one thing well, but the game will have provided for a viable way to do various things decently and thus find a different avenue to viability than one-sided min-maxing. They won't zomg burst anyone down, nor will they mitigate a zerg, but maybe they will provide a middle ground that allows for more play styles.

Note that I support min-maxing. I think specialization should be rewarded with optimal performance at one's chosen approach. But just because previous games (or this one) could or would not allow for reasonable hybrid builds does not make the idea doomed in and of itself.

The surrounding mechanics make it impossible in most models, to be fair. Look at ESO's mechanics. The passives, sets, and skills are all massively focused on min-max specialization. Nothing wrong with that in a vacuum, but it definitely directs player agency in a specific way. The fact that it does is in no way indicative of this being a superior form of design. It's just how it is in ESO.

I would like to see more fodder for creativity, and I certainly think it's possible without making any one build a monster.

Also, Sorcs are alreay tanky enough not to die and yet can burst with the best of them. So clearly the min-max-only model has the same issues you fear in a more flexible model.

LorDrek · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

Problem is class abilitiess scales to mag/elemen. for stamina, only 1 ulti with physic dmg. Need big change.

TheValkyn · April 2016

It's more like overall defense has been gimped while damage has been set free.

RebornV3x · April 2016

Other (Explain)

the thing is lag has a lot to do with it when I only see one animation and apparently get hit 4 times by the move doesn't help but they made things worse by making Proxy det so easy and now VD set its a perfect storm of garbage they really need to limit the AOEs in Cyrodill.

DeanTheCat · April 2016

Meow?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219283/the-root-of-the-problem-a-lack-of-limits#latest

AddictionX · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

I mean you can defend the current meta all you want saying that low defense is the cause, but what people fail to neglect not everyone runs the same cookie cutter builds and believe they're own build is something special therefore no one else is running defensive skils, traits, glyphs, etc.

That is sincerely an ignorant statement of the opponents you could face in cyrodil. However i found that having around 32k plus hp helped alot as most burst builds cannot burst more than 25k hp and when i did some testing i found with cp and around 35k to 40k hp dragons blood started to work as an oh *** skill. Granted I only have 21k stamina and i felt the difference so ill continue to refine it and figure out what else i could do to increase health and stamina. It also did not affect the numbers I was outputting in vigor or rally ticks by the 5-6k stamina i lost to gain the hp. Which means i should have lost dps... but I did not.

Surprisingly splitting my points between stamina and health did not change the damage of my skills significantly to not at all which means during the TG update they changed the way some skills scale some on weapon damage and some on stamina or highest stat.

There is something adding extra mitigation since TG was put in, most noticeable on my take flight damage. Some thing is going on with stamina skills and different trees and I aim to find out what they changed and if it was intentional or not... the scaling is all off from the previous patch.

Duiwel · April 2016

Other (Explain)

The game was well balanced once upon a time... then people called for nerfs instead of L2P, well the game is "fairly balanced" & I use that lightly now.

Every class can decently execute another class 1v1 if the player knows what they are doing, are on similar CP or experience levels...

That said I think enough nerfs for now let's just get use to a meta and stick with it and perhaps just minor tweaks in between...

Prox det started because of too many nerfs and now it's practically mandatory for ultimate victory.

EIGHTS · April 2016

Are abilities are too strong and out of balance this patch?

Thanks ZOS. You make zerg more stronger and PvP is doom now.

One raid always use Impulse, Whirlwind, Magicka Detonation, Vigor, Lots of heal skills and the FC, VD set. They are powerful and never die. You even don't need 24 people, only 5~10 people can call they zerg now.

If you're a NB, you must like a superman now. you can bomb someone (even group) then hide so quick.

Thank you making the change.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Is the real problem with "OP Skills" actually a low defense, high burst meta?

Is the real problem with "OP Skills" actually a low defense, high burst meta? 55 votes