The inability to dodge Radiant Destruction is too extreme

myrrrorb14_ESO · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

I would be fine with Radiant Oppression being dodgable if people couldn't infinite dodge roll. Revisit Softcaps in a responsible way and sure you can dodge it. Until then, L2P.

Softcaps is a fundamental issue with the game, not just being able to DR one ability.

Making it dodgeable doesn't really fit in. But if they did change it, make it Negate the cost of the skill. It costs too much!

I miss soft caps...

Refuse2GrowUp · March 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Reduce range to 15m

Make execute start at 30%

Changes like this will greatly diminish a Templar's DPS in PvE.

Again, the devs really need to create separate PvP and PvE profiles. This game will never come close to resembling any sort of balance until they do

sirrmattus · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

sirrmattus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

sirrmattus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

sirrmattus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@sirrmattus its my Altmer.

Cesille = Redguard
Cezille = altmer

Confusing I know >.>

@Alcast

i see. ive always looked for any of your magick builds, but have never seen any

Ye because I did not have any haha xD. I only had stam characters kinda. Well my Redguard back in 1.3 was a Healer tho lol.
I will create a Magplar video soon. But first I have to do stam DK

I created an eu nb so i can find your dk and kill her in pvp. tbh no lie

NBs are free AP for my DK, just come xD. Went on PVP with Xeloki today, took 5 mins till first person called me cheater lol..

@Alcast

well he's only lvl 38 right now. and i dont have any CP

why they call you a cheater? cause of your WB ani-cancel? owell. i hav wb on my back bar specifically for hi resistence dk's and templars.

Because they can not animation cancel lol.

Ye the No CP crap is what keeps me off NA atm...grinding a char no problem but the *** CP man...

its tough man. but tbh ive been enjoying non vet pvp in EU alot more than vet pvp in NA.

NativeJoe · March 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Current executes:

2H Executioner: Melee range, can be dodged.
Nightblade Impale: Melee range, can be dodged. Morph to a short ranged attack, can be dodged.
Bow Poison Injection: Ranged, damage over time, can only dodge the initial hit but not the DoT (Not a true execute in my opinion, but it does do 200% extra damage at max).
Sorcerer Mage's Wrath: Ranged, can not be dodged (the execute explosion), only procs at 20% or less health.

And then....

Radiant Destruction: Ranged, can not be dodged, channel, extremely far range, 50% or less hp to trigger bonus damage.

There's another issue with Radiant Destruction too involving line of sight checks. The ability will not consider line of sight unless the entire 1 second interval between damage ticks is blocked by line of sight. So if only the last 0.5 seconds of the 1 second interval before the next tick of damage is cut by line of sight, you will still take damage. So good luck actually using line of sight to try and counter Radiant Destruction.

I have a strong tolerance for any sort of imbalance, bug, or abusing of bugs, but the change to make Radiant Destruction not able to be dodged is the one change I am mad about.

Either bring other executes up to par with Radiant Destruction so they can't be dodged, or allow it to be dodged. It was in a perfectly fine position before this dodge change. It's obviously riskier gameplay to get off a melee range execute than sit behind a few players and have the execute auto-target for you.

This is all from the perspective of a player who only plays stamina of each class. If I were to relate this to a magicka build, think of Radiant Destruction doing damage through shields. Roll dodge is our "temporary health shield" because any attacks that get dodged can be interpreted as "getting absorbed" just like a damage shield.

And putting extra Champion Points into Tick Skinned does nowhere near enough to negate the issue of Radiant Destruction not being able to be dodged

bow users field day or destroy staff has a skill to counter that for magic users... or bash it..... there are a list of skills that stop radiant destruction u should learn them I made a post about it before I could link it here for you just so you can see how easy it is.

EDIT: here they are this is a list I took from another users post that was similar to my own
Bash
Block
Don't roll
Don't mist form
Stonefist
Crushing Shock
Deepbreath
Flame Reach
WB
Magnum Shot
Javelin
Power Bash
Cloak
Purge
Purify
Crystal Frag
Familiar Explosion
Prison
Silver Shards(if vamp)
Dawnbreaker(if vamp)
Turn Undead(if vamp)
Fear
Meteor
Fire Rune
Drain(vamp)
LOS
Howl(WW)
Dragonleap
Soul Tether
Incapacitating Strike
Agony
Petrify
Any Shield(Hardened, Rock, Blazing, Magic Harness, Healing Ward)
Toppling(when it works)
Luminous Shards
Streak
Venom Arrow

This list isn't up to date. ... I'm a Sorc, so someone using radiant on me is the least of my worries... but the fact I can't get away from it is annoying. IE if I'm "locked" onto on the top of the keep... I can literally drop down the bottom floor and the beam will be shooting through the castle walls still hitting me.

but yeah... I love the skill in pve. I don't even have to slot a execute and just let the templars have their fun. my job is the first 50% health. But in pvp... it can be disastrous. IE if someone has shield breaker on, and a Templar is radiating... it's over.

But Again thats not what kills me. it's the 900 ping lol... it literally takes me 15 seconds to launch one attack, 6 seconds to recast a shield... and radiant is lagless... thats what makes it op in my opinion

Wreuntzylla · March 2016

NativeJoe wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Current executes:

2H Executioner: Melee range, can be dodged.
Nightblade Impale: Melee range, can be dodged. Morph to a short ranged attack, can be dodged.
Bow Poison Injection: Ranged, damage over time, can only dodge the initial hit but not the DoT (Not a true execute in my opinion, but it does do 200% extra damage at max).
Sorcerer Mage's Wrath: Ranged, can not be dodged (the execute explosion), only procs at 20% or less health.

And then....

Radiant Destruction: Ranged, can not be dodged, channel, extremely far range, 50% or less hp to trigger bonus damage.

There's another issue with Radiant Destruction too involving line of sight checks. The ability will not consider line of sight unless the entire 1 second interval between damage ticks is blocked by line of sight. So if only the last 0.5 seconds of the 1 second interval before the next tick of damage is cut by line of sight, you will still take damage. So good luck actually using line of sight to try and counter Radiant Destruction.

I have a strong tolerance for any sort of imbalance, bug, or abusing of bugs, but the change to make Radiant Destruction not able to be dodged is the one change I am mad about.

Either bring other executes up to par with Radiant Destruction so they can't be dodged, or allow it to be dodged. It was in a perfectly fine position before this dodge change. It's obviously riskier gameplay to get off a melee range execute than sit behind a few players and have the execute auto-target for you.

This is all from the perspective of a player who only plays stamina of each class. If I were to relate this to a magicka build, think of Radiant Destruction doing damage through shields. Roll dodge is our "temporary health shield" because any attacks that get dodged can be interpreted as "getting absorbed" just like a damage shield.

And putting extra Champion Points into Tick Skinned does nowhere near enough to negate the issue of Radiant Destruction not being able to be dodged

bow users field day or destroy staff has a skill to counter that for magic users... or bash it..... there are a list of skills that stop radiant destruction u should learn them I made a post about it before I could link it here for you just so you can see how easy it is.

EDIT: here they are this is a list I took from another users post that was similar to my own
Bash
Block
Don't roll
Don't mist form
Stonefist
Crushing Shock
Deepbreath
Flame Reach
WB
Magnum Shot
Javelin
Power Bash
Cloak
Purge
Purify
Crystal Frag
Familiar Explosion
Prison
Silver Shards(if vamp)
Dawnbreaker(if vamp)
Turn Undead(if vamp)
Fear
Meteor
Fire Rune
Drain(vamp)
LOS
Howl(WW)
Dragonleap
Soul Tether
Incapacitating Strike
Agony
Petrify
Any Shield(Hardened, Rock, Blazing, Magic Harness, Healing Ward)
Toppling(when it works)
Luminous Shards
Streak
Venom Arrow

This list isn't up to date. ... I'm a Sorc, so someone using radiant on me is the least of my worries... but the fact I can't get away from it is annoying. IE if I'm "locked" onto on the top of the keep... I can literally drop down the bottom floor and the beam will be shooting through the castle walls still hitting me.

but yeah... I love the skill in pve. I don't even have to slot a execute and just let the templars have their fun. my job is the first 50% health. But in pvp... it can be disastrous. IE if someone has shield breaker on, and a Templar is radiating... it's over.

But Again thats not what kills me. it's the 900 ping lol... it literally takes me 15 seconds to launch one attack, 6 seconds to recast a shield... and radiant is lagless... thats what makes it op in my opinion

Odd, someone runs around a tree or behind a wall and my channel stops...

AfkNinja · March 2016

sirrmattus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Current executes:

2H Executioner: Melee range, can be dodged. Also: is Insta-cast, can be block-casted, doesn't lock you into an 70% snare, can be animation canceled for further damage, cannot be interrupted, full damage is immediate, 50% or less hp to trigger bonus damage.
Nightblade Impale: Melee range, can be dodged. Morph to a short ranged attack, can be dodged.Also: is Insta-cast, can be block-casted, doesn't lock you into an 70% snare, can be animation canceled for further damage, cannot be interrupted, full damage is immediate.
Bow Poison Injection: Ranged, damage over time, can only dodge the initial hit but not the DoT (Not a true execute in my opinion, but it does do 200% extra damage at max). This isn't a proper execute
Sorcerer Mage's Wrath: extremely far Ranged i][b]If RD is "extremely far" then so is this since it's the same distance[/b][/i, can not be dodged (the execute explosion), only procs at 20% or less health, but can be pre-cast before that threshold and yet will still trigger when that condition is met. Also, is Insta-cast, can be block-casted, doesn't lock you into an 70% snare, can be animation canceled for further damage, cannot be interrupted.

And then....

Radiant Destruction: Ranged, can not be dodged, channel which means you are locked into a 70% snare, is interruptible, cannot be animation canceled for additional damage, leave the caster defensless, damage is not immediate, extremely far misleading adjective, it has the standard distance of other ranged attacks range, 50% or less hp to trigger bonus damage again misleading as Executioner shares this exact same mechanic but was not mentioned.

I have a strong tolerance for any sort of imbalance, bug, or abusing of bugs, but the change to make Radiant Destruction not able to be dodged is the one change I have ever been mad about. Apparently not. Channeled attacks being dodgeable was not intended as per ZoS and thus bugged. What you mean to say is you tolerate bugs that favor your playstyle

Either bring other executes up to par with Radiant Destruction so they can't be dodged, or allow it to be dodged. they have different casting mechanics, something you fail to mentioned, and thus different characteristics It was in a perfectly fine position before this dodge change. You mean perfectly fine for your stamina build. It was not "perfectly fine" for templars who were stuck with all the disadvantages of being locked in a channel without any benefits It's obviously riskier gameplay to get off a melee range execute than sit behind a few players and have the execute auto-target for you. Brilliant deduction. RD carries little risk when hiding in a zerg. Because melee players don;t zerg or derive the same benefits when surrounded bu their allies? What is the RD user doesn't have a few players to hide behind?

This is my main issue:
If I were to relate this to a magicka build, think of Radiant Destruction doing damage through shields. Roll dodge is our "temporary health shield" because any attacks that get dodged can be interpreted as "getting absorbed" just like a damage shield.
"Ours"? Well, at least you make no pretense of being objective. But again you make the mistake of comparing apples to oranges. These are two entirely different mechanics. A player with a shield that gets hit with something still suffers the negative effects of that skill. Dodge completely avoids them. If I have a shield up and get hit with a crystal frag, I am stunned. If I dodge it, I am not This makes dodge-rolling a superior means of defense. At the click of a button, dodge will enable a player to completely avoid the damage and corresponding negative effects of every instant-cast single target ability in the game. There are two counters to dodge, AoEs and channeled attacks. RD is a channel. It's not supposed to be dodged. It is supposed to be shielded. Different mechanics, with different functions, and different intents. You can not treat them the same.

And putting extra Champion Points into Tick Skinned does nowhere near enough to negate the issue of Radiant Destruction not being able to be dodged. This one ability is what ruins any fights where I'm outnumbered on my stamina characters. Welcome to the club. Your wrecking blows, fears, ambushes, snipes, surprise attacks, and other high damaging insta-cast abilities all ruin any fights where I'm outnumered on my magicka templar. I have a toolkit that is inadequte to deal with these type of attacks: low armor that is all but penetrated, a gimped class shield, no form of AoE CC, zero mobility, a overly nerfed and impractical reflect-debuff. I have to dodge and blocked these forums of attacks with a whooping 14K stamina ppol which is enough for maybe 3 of these and 1 CC break and then I'm dead. I'd *love* to be able to purge wrecking blow the way you want to dodge RD, but I'm guessing that thought never crossed your mind. Or that maybe there is something to the fact that templars who use RD are ill-suited to deal with the attacks from stamina players while stamina players are ill-suited to deal with the attacks from magicka templars.

sirrmattus wrote: »

sounds like you need to L2P your templar

DAMN Sirrmattus. Back at it again with the attacking the player stuff?? At some point are you even going to attempt to make a rational argument?

"Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent."

Saying "L2P" literally means nothing. You have no way of knowing the quality of skill that @Joy_Division plays at.

Learn how to make an argument:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Stop attacking people that you THINK you're smarter than and make a real argument. This isn't personal but it just seems like everything you post is this elitism garbage and anyone who doesn't agree needs to L2P LOL!!! If you are actually correct you should be able to express it with your words, arguments and facts.

danno8 · March 2016

blabafat wrote: »

Leave it undodgeable. Make the execute start at 30%. Reduce range to 15 meters or so

So like all other executes?

Alright then. Make it instant cast, change animation to be near invisible, remove self snare. Fair is fair.

Destruent · March 2016

danno8 wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Leave it undodgeable. Make the execute start at 30%. Reduce range to 15 meters or so

So like all other executes?

Alright then. Make it instant cast, change animation to be near invisible, remove self snare. Fair is fair.

You will have to nerf Executioner and Poison Injection aswell, bc they start at 50%. And NBs/Sorcs finisher has to start at 30% aswell...then they just look different and people will still complain about templars execute

rfennell_ESO · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

I would be fine with Radiant Oppression being dodgable if people couldn't infinite dodge roll. Revisit Softcaps in a responsible way and sure you can dodge it. Until then, L2P.

Softcaps is a fundamental issue with the game, not just being able to DR one ability.

Thing is, only exploiters can infinitely dodge roll. It's really not possible even on high stamina and stamina regen builds.

Neoauspex · March 2016

I love it when @AfkNinja breaks out the List of Logical Fallacies. It should be a prerequisite for posting privileges on this forum.

AfkNinja · March 2016

Neoauspex wrote: »

I love it when @AfkNinja breaks out the List of Logical Fallacies. It should be a prerequisite for posting privileges on this forum.

It's not about privilege. It's about using a real argument, not attacking people. Stop saying "L2P" and start making well thought out arguments and I won't say anything. Unless I disagree :P

Edit: I just really really dislike people who attempt to dismiss an argument with something as weak as "L2P".

itscompton · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Ok here you go boys and girls. People that still think Radiant Destruction is balanced should watch this video.
I do know it is not an issue in 1v1. But it becomes one in open world pvp.

And NO you can NOT INTERRUPT the *** 47m beam. Why? Because you are long dead before you reach the beamer lolololol

https://youtu.be/8Q8v-oTHPio

I watched the video and saw you cast RD a lot but most casts did little damage, only those hitting players below 25% actually did massive damage. I don't see how you think it's a problem. I think your video makes the opposite argument you intended.

itscompton · March 2016

AddictionX wrote: »

Damn I should of known every counter argument is going to mention WB, go ahead nerf it lol make it useless i hate having to slot it just because i want to be a damage dealer if you think that one skill is really the issue go for it lol it takes abit more know-how to be able to land one, ill still find a way to cc/snare you and drain your stamina....just make RD dodgable again.

OR

Make Melee skills undodgable with a stupid range.

So you're saying right now you have no choice but to roll WB but if they nerfed it you'd be fine because you'd be able to find a way to be just as effective without it?
What?

itscompton · March 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

AriBoh wrote: »

Oh good this *** again.

Prove to me that Radiant Destruction should be the only execute which can't be dodged. I'll wait.

you can purge it
you can interrupt it
the templar stands still and has no mobility

other executes you can
animation cancel
have mobility
can't interrupt it

seems like a fair trade off to completely leave yourself open and do good damage.
risk/reward

\\\
though i agree, let people be able to dodge it to stop the qq, nerfing it will still include qq as people will still insta die from it once they hit low health.

The logic behind "you can interrupt it" is a little bit funny cause I ever take the first tick. You cannot interrupt it before the first tick. Sometimes one tick is 4-5k damage on me. If I use a skull to interrupt it then I lose the CD for a heal or shield skill and the templar is casting again jesus beam. The range should be reduced to a mele range, so it is easy to be interrupted with bash and people who use the skill will be at risk. Risk vs reward.

By that argument Snipe is OP by like 5000%. 45M range + 12K+ damage with crit + no visual indicator to give away position of attacker.

Alcast · March 2016

itscompton wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ok here you go boys and girls. People that still think Radiant Destruction is balanced should watch this video.
I do know it is not an issue in 1v1. But it becomes one in open world pvp.

And NO you can NOT INTERRUPT the *** 47m beam. Why? Because you are long dead before you reach the beamer lolololol

https://youtu.be/8Q8v-oTHPio

I watched the video and saw you cast RD a lot but most casts did little damage, only those hitting players below 25% actually did massive damage. I don't see how you think it's a problem. I think your video makes the opposite argument you intended.

the damage is not the issue. the range is.
15-20m range would fix this abiltiy

nimander99 · March 2016

NO YOU WILL NOT TAKE AWAY OR CHANGE THE ONE ABILITY TEMPLARS HAVE THAT FINALLY MAKES THEM DO DAMAGE!

Now let me tell you how I really feel...

itscompton · March 2016

blabafat wrote: »

Leave it undodgeable. Make the execute start at 30%. Reduce range to 15 meters or so

Have you really played with your Temp that much since the update? If so you should have caught on to the fact RO gets a very small increase in damage between 50-30%. My crit ticks increase from 2500 to about 3000 at 50%, to 4000 at 40%. Damage only scales to really high numbers on targets at 20% or below. Watch the video Alcast posted and pay attention to the damage done on most of the targets he hits, unless they're already really low on health the RO barely budges the health bar.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I love it when @AfkNinja breaks out the List of Logical Fallacies. It should be a prerequisite for posting privileges on this forum.

It's not about privilege. It's about using a real argument, not attacking people. Stop saying "L2P" and start making well thought out arguments and I won't say anything. Unless I disagree :P

Edit: I just really really dislike people who attempt to dismiss an argument with something as weak as "L2P".

but sometimes it really is a ltp issue or their just full of crap or they have an obvious agenda. and seeing that any major mechanics change people campaign for can take ages to happen you literally do have to ltp within the meta until it changes.

maxjapank · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ok here you go boys and girls. People that still think Radiant Destruction is balanced should watch this video.
I do know it is not an issue in 1v1. But it becomes one in open world pvp.

And NO you can NOT INTERRUPT the *** 47m beam. Why? Because you are long dead before you reach the beamer lolololol

https://youtu.be/8Q8v-oTHPio

I watched the video and saw you cast RD a lot but most casts did little damage, only those hitting players below 25% actually did massive damage. I don't see how you think it's a problem. I think your video makes the opposite argument you intended.

the damage is not the issue. the range is.
15-20m range would fix this abiltiy

Most players seem to be adjusting to Radiant. Sometimes I get kills. Sometimes I don't. It's fine as is. Maybe when you were one-shotting on your Stam, you thought that was balanced.

Solariken · March 2016

I would prefer to have Radiant Destruction replaced, I think it's a really poorly designed skill with no imagination.

x_Nathan_F · March 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Reduce range to 15m

Make execute start at 30%

Changes like this will greatly diminish a Templar's DPS in PvE.

Again, the devs really need to create separate PvP and PvE profiles. This game will never come close to resembling any sort of balance until they do

This.
I wish people would start thinking of how this can effect players who PvE, I think radiant is fine and it doesn't need nerfing.

technohic · March 2016

Solariken wrote: »

I would prefer to have Radiant Destruction replaced, I think it's a really poorly designed skill with no imagination.

I'm with you on that one, but not because someone can't use dodge as the 1 size fits all defense to every execute.

AfkNinja · March 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

I love it when @AfkNinja breaks out the List of Logical Fallacies. It should be a prerequisite for posting privileges on this forum.

It's not about privilege. It's about using a real argument, not attacking people. Stop saying "L2P" and start making well thought out arguments and I won't say anything. Unless I disagree :P

Edit: I just really really dislike people who attempt to dismiss an argument with something as weak as "L2P".

but sometimes it really is a ltp issue or their just full of crap or they have an obvious agenda. and seeing that any major mechanics change people campaign for can take ages to happen you literally do have to ltp within the meta until it changes.

Yes but using "L2P" is a fallacy as you are attacking the person not their argument, never go after the person go after the argument. We should all be able to debate here without people personally attacking us and trying to imply we somehow are ignorant of how the game works just cause we disagree. Show them with your words how they are wrong. Also, @Joy_Division is VERY skilled AND knowledgeable so the comment was completely ridiculous and I felt compelled to call it out.