Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Let's consider a few things here about the Templars tool box of skills. From this point on I am assuming we're speaking of Magicka Templars only;

Dark Flare > Dodgable
Aurora Javelin > Dodgable
Pucturing Sweeps > Dodgable*
Toppling Charge > Dodgable

*Sweeps can be dodged in very specific situations. IE if the person rolling goes behind the Templar

Templars need RD to be undodgable for the same reason a Nightblade needs cloak. It's our way of finishing off a enemy at long range since we have poor defensive options in 1vX scenarios. We cannot afford to let the target get close enough to engage us at Close Quarters Combat because most of the time we lose.

As a ranged caster, I do need an ability I know will hit the target and at least punish him. IF he's dying from my RD, but took additional damage from my alliance members being present, it is his fault for engaging a group.

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Let's consider a few things here about the Templars tool box of skills. From this point on I am assuming we're speaking of Magicka Templars only;

Dark Flare > Dodgable
Aurora Javelin > Dodgable
Pucturing Sweeps > Dodgable*
Toppling Charge > Dodgable

*Sweeps can be dodged in very specific situations. IE if the person rolling goes behind the Templar

Templars need RD to be undodgable for the same reason a Nightblade needs cloak. It's our way of finishing off a enemy at long range since we have poor defensive options in 1vX scenarios. We cannot afford to let the target get close enough to engage us at Close Quarters Combat because most of the time we lose.

As a ranged caster, I do need an ability I know will hit the target and at least punish him. IF he's dying from my RD, but took additional damage from my alliance members being present, it is his fault for engaging a group.

Magicka Templars have incredible surviveability. A piece or two of heavy armor, some impen on gear, CPs stacked for PvP vice PvE, and a Magplar can out heal almost any dmg you do to them. So your close quarters point is moot.

As for the 'it's their fault for engaging me in a group comment...AD on PS4 NA is the zerg alliance. You will always be in a group. Nice try lol.

Krist wrote: »

Basically we should be upset that we cannot beat a 5 on 1 scenario because someone has a skill we cannot counter when there are 4 others attacking us? Does that about sum it up?

Funny.

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

i tlked about this with several guild mates. people who cast RD on people with full health with 3 people in a larger group. it's really hard to fight it even when they just execute because if you get attacked by someone else you are dead within 1 second. the problem is RD is one of the few usefull abilty's of a templar. if you nerf RD in any way templars will be even less balanced as the other classes.
i do agree with RD being bit over the top. but then again what class doesn't have a abilty like that that isn't over the top?

In this case you could have spammed anything (e.g. surprise attack, jabs, crystal fragment and so on) and it would have killed you...the same in most situations alcast has shown. If you get attacked by a lot of enemys nearly everything will kill you, doesn't raly matter which skill you are spamming.

SA -> melee caster takes risk and dodgeable
CF -> easily dodgeable
JABS -> melee can be avoided by running away because caster doesn't walk won't use sprint and/or mayor expedition.

so none of these would work like RD does. and i'm talking about fights in general when you fight in groups doesn't even have to be large zerg groups and you have people JUST using RD and being effective it's getting quite annoying. but as i said before templars don't really have mutch else that is as good. and all classes got at least one broken abilty.

Destruent wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

i tlked about this with several guild mates. people who cast RD on people with full health with 3 people in a larger group. it's really hard to fight it even when they just execute because if you get attacked by someone else you are dead within 1 second. the problem is RD is one of the few usefull abilty's of a templar. if you nerf RD in any way templars will be even less balanced as the other classes.
i do agree with RD being bit over the top. but then again what class doesn't have a abilty like that that isn't over the top?

In this case you could have spammed anything (e.g. surprise attack, jabs, crystal fragment and so on) and it would have killed you...the same in most situations alcast has shown. If you get attacked by a lot of enemys nearly everything will kill you, doesn't raly matter which skill you are spamming.

SA -> melee caster takes risk and dodgeable
CF -> easily dodgeable
JABS -> melee can be avoided by running away because caster doesn't walk won't use sprint and/or mayor expedition.

so none of these would work like RD does. and i'm talking about fights in general when you fight in groups doesn't even have to be large zerg groups and you have people JUST using RD and being effective it's getting quite annoying. but as i said before templars don't really have mutch else that is as good. and all classes got at least one broken abilty.

If you have a lot of people beating on you the attacker doesn't take any risk...in a 1v1 ok, but there you shouldn't have any problems with RO. using radiant only is only usefull if someone gets your enemy to low health. Spamming ANY execute would work there too...

I mean why do you expect to survive an execute when you are outnumbered???

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

Not one of these again... RD is just about the least thing I worry getting hit with in Cyro. And I am speaking as someone who mains a Magicka Templar and who spams this ability pretty much non-stop.

RD is a good skill, I'd even go as far as say it's a great skill. But it's not OP, at least no more than Crystal Frags and Snipe an it's morphs. It's the best ranged ability Templar has. But for all it's ups it has it's fair share of downs. It's a channel, so it's slow, obvious and interruptible. It's also fairly costly to use. It's not a magic I win button, but a skill that requires thought and practice to use properly. And even though I rely on it a lot, I'd swap it with Frags in an instant, 'cause frags would fit my playstyle a whole lot better. But I'm a Templar so I'll drudge on with RD and mold my playstyle around it, and in doing so have learned to know this skill works pretty well. Thus I know how to best use it in the offense but also know how to deal with it in defense.

The reason people moan about is because they are used to being able to ignore it and because it is so obvious. It's a giant beam of light hosing you down. And it takes forever to deal it's damage. (Well relatively speaking at least, since most of the skills one considers great in this game are pretty much instant.) And since it takes several seconds to do it's work, it tends to make an impression, and it leaves no questions as to what killed you in the end. Thus it's lot easier to get emotional about it than dying to some random burst you never even saw coming. But if you stop and think about it, rationally instead of emotionally, you will soon realize that it's no worse than any of the other skills that tend to pop up on your death recap.

Getting grilled by three or four Templars sporting RD is no different than being targeted by 3 or 4 bow users spamming Snipe. Or being targeted by three or four Sorcs blasting you with Frags. Except that getting hit by three snipes or frags means you just die. Whereas three Radiants boring you down, give you several seconds of frantic panic while you are trying to desperately save you bacon. Which of course you can't, since trying to out heal three ticking executes is just not possible. Even for a Templar running full healing specs. A good player can prolong that ordeal a good while, by using LoS breaking and blocking and self heals. A good tank can take for ever for several Templars to bring down. But ultimately, when skills of the players are equal, then the side with more players should win. So getting burned to a crisp by multitude of Templars is no different than being Ambush spammed by a group of Nightblades.

As so many others have pointed, a lone Templar spamming RD is not really an issue, unless you are clueless or careless. If you get hit by one, asses your situation. Are you at full health? Then carry on and ignore it. If not, is there any cover around you? Ir there is, go behind it. If not, can you interrupt the target? If that is not possible try to move away for the caster, it has a limited range after all and you can move plenty while it's ticking and it slows the Templar down to a crawl. Do you have a cleanse slotted? You can just use that to cut RD off short. If all else fails then block. Block cuts the damage down a lot.

The second thing you gotta do is to heal yourself when damaged. I see a lot of people running for extended duration of time with less than 50% health in Cyro. Usually it's a glass cannon build, more often than not, one build around using a bow and dodge rolling from enemy attacks. That is a good build and can get you plenty of kills, but no build is perfect. And the Achilles heel of that one is RD and channels in general. I have grilled many a foe who with RD who sport glass cannon builds. You know the type - around 18k health, all points, buffs and gear aimed to max out damage, only relying on dodge roll for defense.

When I see one of them on the battlefield spamming their bow attacks, I pop RD from full health. My three ticks each do about 2.5k damage in such a situation. The target usually just takes the full brunt and keeps on spamming their own attacks. No doubt thinking that it didn't hurt that much. And then I instantly recast RD and the first hit ticks for 3.5 and the next for 6k and at this point the target is in total panic mode and it shows. They go all frantic and try to dodge roll and thus eat the last tick for some ungodly amount of damage, Since all they had left was less than 1k health left.

A more experienced glass cannon will not take that first RD unopposed. They will try to disrupt it. They will try to LoS it, and after it finishes it's grinding, they will cast Vigor to get back to full health. And I in turn will go back to just doing regular Crushing Shock/LA weave and it becomes a battle of attrition. I will only go back to RD should their HP dip well below 50%.

But there are still a lot of people running in Cyro who think that dodge roll is the solution to everything. I even switched from my normal Fire Destro Staff to Lightning Destro staff just because of the abundance of dodge rollers. Like many other things, like stealth attacks by Nightblades, channels require that you learn the appropriate counter. And dodge rolling is not the counter to channel. Channel is the counter to dodge roll!

As for using RD at a target with full health... Why not? The thing you need to remember is that we have a really limited number of skill slots available. When you account for necessary skills like healing, cleanse and attack and defense buffs you are not left with a whole lot of room. So you want to slot skills that offer multipurpose use. And RD is one of the few Templar skills that offers that. It's an execute, but it's also a ranged attack and as channel it has it's own particular uses.

On the bar I slot RD it's my primary ranged attack. Sure I also have Degeneration there, but spamming that is kinda pointless, and it really is there only to provide Major Sorcery, since as a Templar I can't get it from class skills. I also have Meteor slotted there since it's about 10 times more useful than all the Templar Ultimates combined, but not exactly something I can reliably use as a ranged attack.

So more often than not, I am presented with a situation where I need to do a ranged attack and RD is the one I have ready. Sure I could weapon swap to Destro Staff but... Well you know how reliable weapon swabs are. So Quite often I just end up popping RD. On most targets the damage is roughly equivalent to couple of light attacks. Not much but better than nothing. And who knows, maybe a team mate will hit the target with a snipe while I am roasting it.

So yeah, there is a certain utility in waiting for the execute that you can get with RD that you can't get with other skills. But again... roasting someone with RD while hoping someone else will burst them down to execute, is not the optimal tactic. As a channel it leaves you fairly vulnerable, and it isn't very cost effective way to deal damage either.

Also, with the wonky targeting and the lag in Cyro, quite often I see a a target ripe for execute and try RD their asses to kingdom come, but then the game decides that naah... and instead picks another target standing next to the one in execute range. A target that is at full health. When that happens I have two choices, let the channel run it's course and do at least some damage to an enemy and thus not waste the magicka, or cancel the RD with block and try again. Usually I just let my RD run it's course, since no doubt, the target I was actually aiming at, has already healed themselves out of execute range.

Another time this happens is when you spot a good target for an execute and try to RD them, and then the game goes naah... I'll just chill here for a while not doing anything. Then two seconds later it decides to finally launch the beam. By this time the target is already back to full health and you are probably aiming at a new target anyway. But the game decides to still shoot the old target for *** and giggles. When that happens I usually cancel the attacks since I have already moved on and my attenuation is needed elsewhere.

So to iterate - Dodge roll is not the magical defense for everything. Channels are the counter to dodge rolls. RD is a channel as well as an an execute, but it's also multipurpose tool an can serve as an okay raged attack in a pinch. If you run a glass cannon build with less than 20k health, then you are vulnerable to executes. And if your primary defense is dodge rolling then RD is your gonna hurt you. Learn to accept that or modify your build and incorporate defenses against it. Sure it will no doubt mean you have to sacrifice something in order to get it. But that is no different from countering anything else in the game. If you choose to ignore tools required to counter channels in order to amp some other aspect of your build, then that is your call and you gotta learn to live with its limitations.

Oh, and for those who wonder why I don't worry about RD - I have plenty of health, never let it stay below 75% if I can help it. I never leave a keep without having a cleanse ability slotted, and never stay put in the battlefield and use LoS blocking stuff religiously. Thus I rarely get killed by RD myself.

The 2nd sentence of this has made this whole reply bias and void

Recremen wrote: »

It is kind of weird that Templar's best skills right now aren't in their house, but instead can be cast from 28 meters away. Mind, I think the "house" playstyle would be terrible and I'm glad they have ranged options, but RD is definitely more dangerous than any other ranged execute in the game right now.

Consider: an opponent opens up from afar (and stealthed, no less) with a big heavy-hitting attack like Dark Flare or Snipe or what have you. Oh shoot, there goes half your health! No worries, you're a good player and have access to several skills to save you! You put up your reflect, shield, heal, etc, and roll-dodge away. There's no guarantee of success, but it's not completely hopeless. Oh, but wait, that was a Magicka Templar with RD? Well, you can still cast your shield or your heal, but roll-dodging isn't going to do jack for you. You're a Stam DK, maybe, or some other unloved build? Well, you can cast your mostly-useless heal or your mostly-useless shield and hope you run out of range before the giant damage ticks catch up. You will fail, but it's fun to have your hopes crushed sometimes, probably.

But maybe it's just a hard counter to a few specific builds! Well, no, it's useful against everyone at all times. That's not a counter, that's just a solid skill with no drawbacks. I don't personally know what a good balance point is for this skill, but there is currently no way to escape it, no way to counter it, and it seems to be doing more damage from range than similar executes. No dodge, no reflect, just OP. It's pretty frustrating to be sieging a keep and suddenly get knocked down from inescapable damage. Everything else can be dodge-rolled, reflected, etc., except for Lightning Staff/Resto heavy attacks (neither are executes) and Soul Assault (an ultimate). And you can't exactly bash someone on a keep wall, so that's right out.