Maybe cut down trait-research time?

clayandaudrey_ESO · March 2016

@OmniDo, I do not think MMOs are the genre of games you should be playing. I understand your frustration but there are other alternatives to getting the gear you want. I do not think any of the crafting mechanics will ever be changed. It is either a deal with it so you can eventually do it yourself or be like real life and pay some else to make your clothes.

Lucius_Aelius · March 2016

Hell, if anything I think it's stupid ESO Plus Members get reduced research time, it's all well and good to have perks but that seems like a bit much, as if we're second class citizens for not havkng ESO Plus despite spending well over $100 in the crown store, whch I have. I've probably spent more than 200, and just don't like the idea of a subscription which is required to maintain DLC access, I prefer buying it outright, which I have done and will continue to do.

Filling the crown store with nice things that ESO Plus Members get for free while subscribed is all well and good so long as those things are available to be purchased outright for people that prefer doing so, and last I checked there's no permanent reduction to research times available for purchase, which I would likely buy if I could and am annoyed at being pushed towards a subscription when that's not something I want to do.

I'm on Xbox and I already pay a Subscription just to play that, I like buying DLC's when I want them and being able to drop a game for a while and come back to it without the impediment of a subscription to complicate matters. ZoS is getting my money either way so I fail to see any reason why they shouldn't have it work like that and sell any relevant bonuses available for free along with a subscription.

On topic though I agree that research times are annoyingly long, but that's how MMO's generally work, its supposed to take time to advance and despite wishing I could finish faster I still wouldn't want it to change, much like I wish I could drive places faster but wouldn't want the speed limit increased excessively, it's there for a reason and serves a valuable purpose, and the cost of removing the limit would exceed any benefits I might gain. If everyone were a master crafter in just a few weeks it would devastate the game's crafting economy, and I like the idea that I'm working towards something that will be useful even if I'm annoyed at how long it's taking.

sylviermoone · March 2016

The thing is, being an ESO plus member doesn't really do all that much to help with research times near the end. With maxed research passives, you're capped at 30 days to research. With ESO plus membership, it is still 27 days to research those last traits. It's a benifit, yes: but a very small one.

I definitely understand and empathize with those looking down the barrel of researching traits and realizing that it takes tons of time to be fully traited out. It isn't as if your char is locked from doing anything else while those researches are going. To say that all you can do is log in, start research and log out while you're waiting is silly. If you truly feel that a crafted set that is unavailable to you is going to make or break your enjoyment, the option exists to get said crafted set by asking someone to make it for you. I know many people that chose to NOT invest in being able to craft for themselves, and I am happy to craft for them when I can.

I wouldn't necessarily be against small changes to this system, but I don't believe it is broken, either. I DEFINITELY don't believe that changing all research to cap at 24 hours is in any way a reasonable solution, though. As it stands, I think the system is fine as is.

Florial · March 2016

I think the system is fine as it is. Start now, invest some time and you can get it done. I'm almost at 9/9 in clothing and woodworking and getting there in blacksmithing which I started late in the game. Frankly I'm more interested in getting crafting bags at some point to help me manage my huge inventory of crafting materials.

Fallen_Ray · March 2016

I feel you brudda. I don't know what they were thinking either. Heck if you maxed your crafting and have all 3 perks on research consider yourself lucky the research caps at 30 days, really try it without spending a single skill point. Inhuman I know...

CaptainBeerDude · March 2016

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

I feel you brudda. I don't know what they were thinking either. Heck if you maxed your crafting and have all 3 perks on research consider yourself lucky the research caps at 30 days, really try it without spending a single skill point. Inhuman I know...

If you don't want to spend any points into it, maybe you shouldn't be crafting.
Eg) You equip a resto staff and spend no points into the skill line. This is definitely something you could do, but without the proficiencies in the skill line (active and passive) you will probably find that it isn't a very useful weapon.

idk · March 2016

As someone who has researched everything in all three groups I think the research time is just fine. Great system. Very easy and clear. It is also capped at a max research time if they add more traits.

It's great because it takes work and commitment to be able to research everything and be able to craft the 8 and 9 trait gear.

Am glad some things take consider work to be able to obtain.

Zos, please do not change this. No need of reason to change research times.

starkerealm · March 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Hell, if anything I think it's stupid ESO Plus Members get reduced research time, it's all well and good to have perks but that seems like a bit much, as if we're second class citizens for not havkng ESO Plus despite spending well over $100 in the crown store, whch I have.

To be fair, that's a large part of why I don't agree with @Gidorick 's suggestion of increasing the time discount. At 10% it's there, but mostly meaningless. The largest possible discount ESO+ can provide is six days on a ninth trait, without the fourth research passive (so a 64 day research timer gets cut to 58 days). Realistically, it will shave 3 days off a couple month long traits.

I mean, there's wiggle room, but that's pretty insignificant, and it is a balance between "here's a perk for subscribers" and "free players are second class citizens."

Most of the time that discount will be less than a day. Which puts it roughly in line with the XP and Gold increases from ESO+.

Much as I love, and really want, the infinite crafting storage concept that's on the way, I am a little worried this will end up being more of a second class citizen relegation for non-subscribers.

starkerealm · March 2016

OmniDo wrote: »

Also, your previous comment was ad hominem, which automatically disqualifies you from further credible participation.

@OmniDo If we'd been disqualifying people over ad hominem attacks; you invalidated yourself way back in this thread.

OmniDo · March 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

@OmniDo If we'd been disqualifying people over ad hominem attacks; you invalidated yourself way back in this thread.

Negative Stark.

Definition for Ad Hominem:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I have never once attacked you personally.
I have justified my argument and disposition towards the points presented.
An Ad Hominem would be a personal attack towards an individual.
Example: "I think you are dumb"
Versus: "Your point is invalid because <x/y/z>.
Disagreement with a point, no matter how strongly stated, is not ad hominem.

Gidorick · March 2016

Why shouldn't ESO+ members be treated like "1st class" players @Lucius_Aelius @starkerealm and everyone else be treated like "2nd class" ?

Sure you pay to play the game... but you don't pay for THAT service. Additionally, you're not in anyway restricted from paying for THAT service either. Anyone can join!

It's like flying on an airplane... Everyone can fly on the same plane but some people buy first class tickets and get much better service... and some of THOSE first class ticket holders have their "Elite flyer" status and have access to those swanky lounges at the airport. You pay more or are subscribed to a service, why shouldn't you be treated better?

starkerealm · March 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Why shouldn't ESO+ members be treated like "1st class" players @Lucius_Aelius @starkerealm and everyone else be treated like "2nd class" ?

Sure you pay to play the game... but you don't pay for THAT service. Additionally, you're not in anyway restricted from paying for THAT service either. Anyone can join!

It's like flying on an airplane... Everyone can fly on the same plane but some people buy first class tickets and get much better service... and some of THOSE first class ticket holders have their "Elite flyer" status and have access to those swanky lounges at the airport. You pay more or are subscribed to a service, why shouldn't you be treated better?

The issue is, how much better? At what point does it stop being about convenience and become about power, or directly disadvantaging nonpaying players.

Let's run with this in an extreme, just for the thought experiment: If, instead of +10% experience, ESO+ provided +50% xp, is that convenience, or are you selling power? For a non-vet it's not quite irrelevant, but at vet levels, you're talking about getting 3xp for every 2xp another player earns. And, in the accrual of CP you're actually becoming more powerful.

It doesn't create an insurmountable barrier, and if someone wants to spend 90 minute in game for every hour you (at least in the indefinite "you") spend, then the XP gains will roughly even out. But, at the same time, you will be (very slightly) more powerful then a free player.

At +10% that difference will be astonishingly small. But, when you're literally clocking in an extra half hour's worth of XP gains, it can stack up quickly.

On it's own? This isn't crippling. Especially when there's a hard end point, but when you have (vaguely) open ended system like CP, it can become a problem. Or even just the gold economy. As it stands, ESO+ players get slightly more buying power for their time spent in the game than normal players. Again, push that too much further, and you could potentially lock non-subscribed players out of the game.

When you take an advantage that has a direct competitive value against other players... like the ability to farm until your eyes bleed without needing to worry about dumping your mats off at the bank? And you can then bring those items to market? That starts to become an issue, where one player has a direct competitive advantage. (The ability to simply hoard crafting materials until the end of days, instead of until their bank space runs out?)

It's also, probably, worth remembering that there are no "free" players in ESO. I mean, I know, I've used the phrase in this thread. But everyone bought the box. This isn't like a F2P game where you actually have freeloaders. We all paid to play. We can pay extra for some nice trinkets. But, pushing those perks too far can alienate players and turn potential customers into disaffected forum posters trashing this game on news sites... which is something we really don't need, if we want the game to survive.

Pomaikai · March 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Lol, 10 days.

Nah, it's good where it's at. Adds meaning to 9 trait item sets.

Would love some TLC to crafting though. Like the ability to change traits on armor and a second bonus to the 5 piece bonus once you've learned all 9 on that piece.

Yes, it would add meaning to 9 trait sets if those sets were that much better than armor which requires a lower number of traits. However they aren't amazingly better.

Players should have to really have a compelling reason to NOT want to be using either an 8 or 9 trait armor set, and there should be an 8 or 9 trait set which is compelling for both Magicka and Stamina users of all 4 classes, and for both PVE and PVP playstyles.

starkerealm · March 2016

Pomaikai wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Lol, 10 days.

Nah, it's good where it's at. Adds meaning to 9 trait item sets.

Would love some TLC to crafting though. Like the ability to change traits on armor and a second bonus to the 5 piece bonus once you've learned all 9 on that piece.

Yes, it would add meaning to 9 trait sets if those sets were that much better than armor which requires a lower number of traits. However they aren't amazingly better.

Players should have to really have a compelling reason to NOT want to be using either an 8 or 9 trait armor set, and there should be an 8 or 9 trait set which is compelling for both Magicka and Stamina users of all 4 classes, and for both PVE and PVP playstyles.

Okay, so I haven't gone back and verified, so this could be wrong... but, my understanding is, Twice Born Star got a massive buff in the last couple months (along with the Sign bonuses). Morkudin keeps popping up as a top tier set, in some circles, and then getting ridiculed in others... haven't bothered to craft or test it out yet. Armor Master is... well, it's interesting. Again, I haven't bothered to make a set to play with it personally, but, still.

Yeah, no, those are at least semi-relevant. Do you have access to some of the best stuff at 5 and 6 traits? Yeah. Is there a reason to go for 8 and 9? Yes.

RWKT · March 2016

baratron wrote: »

When did you start playing the game, @RWKT? Obviously fairly recently, since I've had a 9-trait crafter since late May or early June last year. (About a month after the first people finished researching Nirnhoned, since I was too poor to buy up tons of Nirncrux at the beginning.)

The idea of traits taking longer and longer to research is to reward those who have put the time and effort in to do the research. And it is effort - in order not to waste a single hour of time when my character could be researching, I would write down exactly when my research was going to finish and make sure I logged on to start it going. Which meant setting alarms for 5 am some days. Wake up, log in, start research going, get back to bed. I went away one weekend and honestly considered asking my mum to log on for me...

Now, I can make any item set in the game, so I get to make gold from players who put adverts out in Guild chat or /zone for 9-trait crafters. The time and skill points that I invested back then are my reward now. (Although I charge basically nothing if people have already collected their own materials and their order is simple.)

I don't believe it was ever intended that everyone in the game would make all of their own equipment. I think it was always intended that you would swap items with Guildmates (e.g. you'd make their weapons and they'd make your glyphs), or that you'd buy items from other players in /zone. That's the point of it being massively multiplayer, right? (Of course, I can see how the lack of text chat on the console platforms makes finding a crafter a lot harder.)

So be grateful that it's only 11 days for your research right now, and that you have the ESO Plus bonus.

Also, make sure that you research the most valuable traits first. On armour, these are: Divines, Infused, Impenetrable, Reinforced, Training. (Where Training is the most useful for new characters, Impenetrable is the most useful for PvP, and Divines is the most useful for PvE). Exploration should be your 9th trait, because it doesn't even work properly right now. If you have Divines, Infused, Impenetrable, Reinforced, Training plus one other trait, you can make any 6-trait armour set that a player will want to buy.

On weapons, the most valuable traits are: Sharpened, Precise, Training, and then we could argue about the rest. (Defending on Tank items like 1-handed swords, and Restoration Staffs? Nirnhoned on everything except for Resto Staffs?)

I wouldn't be opposed to people shortening their research times with Crowns, but I would laugh my arse off. If people want to pay real money for something they could get for free by just waiting, then be my guest.

Well put, I agree with you. I would also like to see Crown Store trait-research "buyables" to shorten the length of time I think that people... myself included... would definitely buy them as we already buy the speed/stamina/pack upgrades for our mounts and those are handy to buy as well. I know it's real money that you have to spend, but if people think it's worth their time then it's worth paying for. Nothing wrong with that. The devs get what they want ($) and we (the impatient gamers) get what we need as well. Fair.

PS- and to answer your first question of how long I've been playing, I was one of the beta-testers for TESO, but my computer was crap for gaming on , so I had to wait a year before I could play TESO on a better system....and with an XBOXONE controller. But I've had hours and hours on it since.

helediron · March 2016

OmniDo wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@OmniDo If we'd been disqualifying people over ad hominem attacks; you invalidated yourself way back in this thread.

Negative Stark.

Definition for Ad Hominem:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I have never once attacked you personally.
I have justified my argument and disposition towards the points presented.
An Ad Hominem would be a personal attack towards an individual.
Example: "I think you are dumb"
Versus: "Your point is invalid because <x/y/z>.
Disagreement with a point, no matter how strongly stated, is not ad hominem.

This is one of the reasons why i absolutely want that long research timers stay, and preferably ZOS add tenth trait soon. While trait research keep ticking, upcoming crafters have a very long list of things to do. They may also take a year, YMMV. I suggest you spend this year learning, planning and building up everything.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar · March 2016

RWKT wrote: »

Hi, does anybody else here feel like the trait research times are a little too long? I mean, one of my characters (V16) is a master-blacksmith and trait research on a piece of heavy armor can go one for more than 10 DAYS!!! I am a ESO Plus member and as I wrote before, my character has max'd out the blacksmith skill, why does it take so long to research a trait??? I think it's a little ridiculous... the wait time should be cut down A LOT. Instead of 11 days, why not 3 days instead? Heck, if the blacksmith skill is max'd out AND I have a ESO Plus membership shouldn't my trait-research represent that?

I just think in all fairness the game devs should look into reducing the trait-research time, make it worth the ESO Plus membership plus all those hours spent buying /finding the gear to research for traits. I don't think I should have to wait that long to craft specialized gear because I have to wait so freaking long.

I got all traits learnt now and I would feel annoyed asf if they lowered it....

starkerealm · March 2016

OmniDo wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@OmniDo If we'd been disqualifying people over ad hominem attacks; you invalidated yourself way back in this thread.

Negative Stark.

Definition for Ad Hominem:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I have never once attacked you personally.
I have justified my argument and disposition towards the points presented.
An Ad Hominem would be a personal attack towards an individual.
Example: "I think you are dumb"
Versus: "Your point is invalid because <x/y/z>.
Disagreement with a point, no matter how strongly stated, is not ad hominem.

I'm not going to bother to go back and find the quotes, but off hand the accusations of being an "apologist" and your whole "Dog the manager" crap come to mind. Honestly, I'm not terribly inclined to make a thing of it because I don't care.

Though, if you think the snark over rocket surgery was intended as an actual attack, you're mistaken, it wasn't. I'm a smartass; it's well documented. Even on these forums.

Here's the thing, judging by your posts, this may not be the genre for you. And, honestly, the developers shouldn't change it to suit your whims at the expense of people who put in the time and earned this stuff legitimately. You're not that important. And, no, I don't appreciate your tone. Even when I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, and honestly tried to help you... yeah, you're not into that. I get it. So? The world is not so important that it revolves around OmniDo.

If you want to craft equipment, this is one of the things you need to do. If you don't want to deal with it, you can get other people to craft your gear for you. That's your choice. You said, you didn't want to be dependent on other people unless you chose to be. Well, this is the choice you're making. You can either learn the systems, or you can be dependent on others.

Also, this is not a single player Elder Scrolls title. I don't care what you want. That is the one thing this is not. Design decisions have been made because of that. You don't have to like it, but the other people playing this game have every bit as much right to be here as you.