Forward Camps Have Made The Game Worse

GRxKnight · March 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

2 minutes is too fast of a respawn penalty...it needs to be higher like 5 or 10 minutes imo...groups like Haxus, VE, Vic will all fight around that timer...if we just respawned at a camp, kite until 2 minutes or opponent over extends...this is the meta we've been given

The funny thing is; you'd be surprised what groups will do to stay within a powerful timer.

During early days of DAOC...Albs had EXTREMELY powerful Realm Rank abilities...So powerful that popping them would usually be a 100% chance to win the fight...The Alb 8 mans that ran would run out...Pop their Realm Rank abilities on another 8 man..then run back to the Port Keep after the fight..and wait the 15-20 Minutes for them to come back up.

Can you add something to the discussion without bringing up DAOC? @Ghost-Shot

caeliusstarbreaker · March 2016

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

met·a
ˈmedə/
noun
noun: meta; plural noun: metas

1.
short for meta key.

adjectiveUS
adjective: meta

1.
(of a creative work) referring to itself or to the conventions of its genre; self-referential.

meta
A term, especially in art, used to characterize something that is characteristically self-referential.

"So I just saw this film about these people making a movie, and the movie they were making was about the film industry..."
"Dude, that's so meta. Stop before my brain explodes."

Second, camps are not the problem - and a 2 minute window may need to be examined. The problem is the method of rewarding the ticks in the game. Everyone goes to a keep or outpost under siege because they want to get the "tick" after 60 seconds of no death around the resource if they still own it.

Now, if you make the timer 3 minutes on rez - this will just encourage tower humping for 2.5 minutes and then out to engage again.

The real issue - that needs to be dealt with somehow - is the way these ticks are handed out. There is no timer you can put on camps that works - but 2 minutes does seem a bit low.

By the way - the word you guys want to use is convention. The current convention is magicka - the current convention is rez at the camp wait 90 seconds then go engage and try to wipe the zerg again.

That's so meta bro.

heystreethawk · March 2016

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Edit: don't worry, the auto-correct function on my phone renders my opinion invalid.

_Chaos · March 2016

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Drives*
If you're gonna be an internet grammar snob, do it right ffs.

Shunravi · March 2016

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Then you need to learn some more definitions. Also I believe you meant 'drives'?

heystreethawk · March 2016

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Drives*
If you're gonna be an internet grammar snob, do it right ffs.

Oh my god a typo! I'm the worst.

Shunravi · March 2016

heystreethawk wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Drives*
If you're gonna be an internet grammar snob, do it right ffs.

Oh my god a typo! I'm the worst.

I read it as a blend between 'trying my patience' and 'dives me up the wall' tbh...

heystreethawk · March 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Drives*
If you're gonna be an internet grammar snob, do it right ffs.

Oh my god a typo! I'm the worst.

I read it as a blend between 'trying my patience' and 'dives me up the wall' tbh...

That would be great! Like a spoonerism, a slip of the tongue; there would be a man who would do it for every single common phrase that he attempted to use.

Shunravi · March 2016

heystreethawk wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

heystreethawk wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

First off : Meta - please stop saying it. I don't think you are all even aware of what it means:

Thank you for saying this. As someone who speaks English and listens to other people speaking English, it tries me up a gd wall.

Drives*
If you're gonna be an internet grammar snob, do it right ffs.

Oh my god a typo! I'm the worst.

I read it as a blend between 'trying my patience' and 'dives me up the wall' tbh...

That would be great! Like a spoonerism, a slip of the tongue; there would be a man who would do it for every single common phrase that he attempted to use.

Well, I slipped up myself, I meant 'drives'

Tankqull · March 2016

GRxKnight wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

2 minutes is too fast of a respawn penalty...it needs to be higher like 5 or 10 minutes imo...groups like Haxus, VE, Vic will all fight around that timer...if we just respawned at a camp, kite until 2 minutes or opponent over extends...this is the meta we've been given

The funny thing is; you'd be surprised what groups will do to stay within a powerful timer.

During early days of DAOC...Albs had EXTREMELY powerful Realm Rank abilities...So powerful that popping them would usually be a 100% chance to win the fight...The Alb 8 mans that ran would run out...Pop their Realm Rank abilities on another 8 man..then run back to the Port Keep after the fight..and wait the 15-20 Minutes for them to come back up.

Can you add something to the discussion without bringing up DAOC? @Ghost-Shot

why should he? DAoC is a great example of how to do it properly even though they had the same innitial problems as ESO has but unlike ZOS they learned from their mistakes and corrected them while ZOS puts on blindfolds and does the same mistakes over and over again...

Ghost-Shot · March 2016

GRxKnight wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

2 minutes is too fast of a respawn penalty...it needs to be higher like 5 or 10 minutes imo...groups like Haxus, VE, Vic will all fight around that timer...if we just respawned at a camp, kite until 2 minutes or opponent over extends...this is the meta we've been given

The funny thing is; you'd be surprised what groups will do to stay within a powerful timer.

During early days of DAOC...Albs had EXTREMELY powerful Realm Rank abilities...So powerful that popping them would usually be a 100% chance to win the fight...The Alb 8 mans that ran would run out...Pop their Realm Rank abilities on another 8 man..then run back to the Port Keep after the fight..and wait the 15-20 Minutes for them to come back up.

Can you add something to the discussion without bringing up DAOC? @Ghost-Shot

No, one can not simply not mention DAOC.

Shunravi · March 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

2 minutes is too fast of a respawn penalty...it needs to be higher like 5 or 10 minutes imo...groups like Haxus, VE, Vic will all fight around that timer...if we just respawned at a camp, kite until 2 minutes or opponent over extends...this is the meta we've been given

The funny thing is; you'd be surprised what groups will do to stay within a powerful timer.

During early days of DAOC...Albs had EXTREMELY powerful Realm Rank abilities...So powerful that popping them would usually be a 100% chance to win the fight...The Alb 8 mans that ran would run out...Pop their Realm Rank abilities on another 8 man..then run back to the Port Keep after the fight..and wait the 15-20 Minutes for them to come back up.

Can you add something to the discussion without bringing up DAOC? @Ghost-Shot

why should he? DAoC is a great example of how to do it properly even though they had the same innitial problems as ESO has but unlike ZOS they learned from their mistakes and corrected them while ZOS puts on blindfolds and does the same mistakes over and over again...

They may have motivational posters that say

It will work THIS time!

And i think its funny that they went from crit ult gain (the old impenititrable countered by preventing crits) and aoe zergbusting > changing impen > hard nerfing ult sources > shoehorning aoe zrgbusting back in with sets and specific spells....

GRxKnight · March 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

2 minutes is too fast of a respawn penalty...it needs to be higher like 5 or 10 minutes imo...groups like Haxus, VE, Vic will all fight around that timer...if we just respawned at a camp, kite until 2 minutes or opponent over extends...this is the meta we've been given

The funny thing is; you'd be surprised what groups will do to stay within a powerful timer.

During early days of DAOC...Albs had EXTREMELY powerful Realm Rank abilities...So powerful that popping them would usually be a 100% chance to win the fight...The Alb 8 mans that ran would run out...Pop their Realm Rank abilities on another 8 man..then run back to the Port Keep after the fight..and wait the 15-20 Minutes for them to come back up.

Can you add something to the discussion without bringing up DAOC? @Ghost-Shot

why should he? DAoC is a great example of how to do it properly even though they had the same innitial problems as ESO has but unlike ZOS they learned from their mistakes and corrected them while ZOS puts on blindfolds and does the same mistakes over and over again...

Because this is eso and not DAOC...

Praeficere · March 2016

Keep camps for now, remove prox det and vicious death.

KenaPKK · March 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

In pre 1.6 people used to hunt down the camps. There were groups of scouts that looked for camps around the battle area, as well as enemies who were not engaging in the battle (most of the time, they were carrying those camps).

It seems the zerg ball wiped out all those (nice) strategies and tactics.

Anyway, I think FW camps should receive a minor nerf regarding the places they can be deployed: outside the keeps, not within them.

This.

I make a point to look for camps or have one of my nightblades do it, but we don't at every fight and seldom see other players seeking camps. Give this time, though. There are a lot of inexperienced players right now. In time strategy will evolve to incorporate more camp hunting, opening multiple breaches in keeps, etc.

I completely agree with your last point. In my opinion, camps should be able to be placed right next to keep walls, but not inside them. Defenders have it a little too easy zombie running into the attackers imo.

Shunravi · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In pre 1.6 people used to hunt down the camps. There were groups of scouts that looked for camps around the battle area, as well as enemies who were not engaging in the battle (most of the time, they were carrying those camps).

It seems the zerg ball wiped out all those (nice) strategies and tactics.

Anyway, I think FW camps should receive a minor nerf regarding the places they can be deployed: outside the keeps, not within them.

This.

I make a point to look for camps or have one of my nightblades do it, but we don't at every fight and seldom see other players seeking camps. Give this time, though. There are a lot of inexperienced players right now. In time strategy will evolve to incorporate more camp hunting, opening multiple breaches in keeps, etc.

I completely agree with your last point. In my opinion, camps should be able to be placed right next to keep walls, but not inside them. Defenders have it a little too easy zombie running into the attackers imo.

It's a whole level of gameplay, siting a camp in a good place, defending it as a secondary objective, and hunting them down.

Elong · March 2016

What would DAOC have done?

Farorin · March 2016

Forward camps are awesome. Don't blame lag on forward camps, when the thing to blame lag on is dodgy programming.

GreenSoup2HoT · March 2016

Forward camps are great. Ball groups cant just run through everyone in a flagged keep.

We can now spawn and use siege to split them up.

Good change.

GRxKnight · March 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forward camps are great. Ball groups cant just run through everyone in a flagged keep.

We can now spawn and use siege to split them up.

Good change.

No one can run through breaches anymore...it's not subject to just ball groups...not really sure how forward camps play into this post though.....

GreenSoup2HoT · March 2016

GRxKnight wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forward camps are great. Ball groups cant just run through everyone in a flagged keep.

We can now spawn and use siege to split them up.

Good change.

No one can run through breaches anymore...it's not subject to just ball groups...not really sure how forward camps play into this post though.....

If you cant run through a breach, break down another wall. This whole breaking 1 wall meta is lame ;P

contact.opiumb16_ESO · March 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forward camps are great. Ball groups cant just run through everyone in a flagged keep.

We can now spawn and use siege to split them up.

Good change.

No one can run through breaches anymore...it's not subject to just ball groups...not really sure how forward camps play into this post though.....

If you cant run through a breach, break down another wall. This whole breaking 1 wall meta is lame ;P

In pre 1.6, when FC were a big part of the strategy, attackers had to break at least 2 walls to have a chance to enter, sometimes more, and it was a good thing IMO. The "1 wall meta" as you mentioned gave a huge advantage to zegs with 20 sieges up on a single wall, breaking it in secs.

frozywozy · March 2016

I have a love-hate relationship with forward camps. I like to use them offensively but hate to see people using them in every single corner / tower of a keep and to play cat and mouse with nightblades running from one side to the other to drop a new one.

I think that forward camps should be placed only outside of the radius of a keep, friendly or not. As much as I agree that keeps were really easy to take prior TG, I think they are abit too hard to take now. Don't get me wrong, some DC guilds still take keeps quite easily against large numbers but this has nothing to do with the forward camps system. It is strictly a problem of lack of knowledges of game mechanics to counter them and AOE caps which favor them largely.

GRxKnight · March 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forward camps are great. Ball groups cant just run through everyone in a flagged keep.

We can now spawn and use siege to split them up.

Good change.

No one can run through breaches anymore...it's not subject to just ball groups...not really sure how forward camps play into this post though.....

If you cant run through a breach, break down another wall. This whole breaking 1 wall meta is lame ;P

Breaking down two walls doesn't change much when it's an inner...you'll have equal siege being pointed at each breach...and if you try front door, well, i hope you enjoy bathing in oil cause that's what's going to happen...from what I've seen in this patch it's that the organized groups are the ones that push in...pug groups and solo/small groups wont push in simply because they won't survive...in order to take a defended keep this patch you're going to have to have massive healing, purging, and mobility...stuff that is now primarily in the hands of zergs and guild groups...taking down multiple walls only divides your forces and gives the defenders more time to set up and get reinforcements

kuro-dono · March 2016

Taking maindoor is quite easy in most keeps except the temple keep arrius, glademist or faregyl. Just get every run to top flag, but too many people stay behind to try save dead ppl at breach> and eventually everyone dead breach after trying to rezz. Just time the run when there is least oil pouring down, then rapid and rush like wind, couple barrier + purges will get most of the team alive to top flag, after that its fairly easy to start secure keep and in most cases when group run past bottom flag to top flag it flips to full since guards dead before rushing in. OBVIOUSLY, doing something clever like this require good coordination and wee bit practicing and some luck

GRxKnight · March 2016

kuro-dono wrote: »

Taking maindoor is quite easy in most keeps except the temple keep arrius, glademist or faregyl. Just get every run to top flag, but too many people stay behind to try save dead ppl at breach> and eventually everyone dead breach after trying to rezz. Just time the run when there is least oil pouring down, then rapid and rush like wind, couple barrier + purges will get most of the team alive to top flag, after that its fairly easy to start secure keep and in most cases when group run past bottom flag to top flag it flips to full since guards dead before rushing in. OBVIOUSLY, doing something clever like this require good coordination and wee bit practicing and some luck

Doesn't work anymore with oil cats on the back flag, meatbag and coldfire pointed at back flag, oils pouring in front flag....I'm not saying taking a defended keep is impossible, but it's not as easy as it was previously...you actually have to be smart about it

Arobain · March 2016

oh woo another whiner

DHale · March 2016

deleted double post

DHale · March 2016

DHale wrote: »

Totally disagree bringing back forward camps has made the game incredibly fast paced and fluid.... Again. I was not feeling my horse riding simulator mini game. I longed for the two hour battles of yesteryear where Vortexman would defend a keep by himself and would tank 20 ppl and we would die to him and tyago sniping from well no one knows respawn and finally get to the keep after well... dinking around and having long resource battles. Been very fun and very lucrative. Btw it's the only way for the smaller groups to be able to whittle down the huge groups that run 30 deep.

reften · March 2016

"forward" camps are a misnomer, should be called defense camps. They're too good in defense now. The range of the camps needs to increase to at least be able to cover an entire keep when placed at a resource.