Basic Lessons in Real LIfe Business (for whiners/complainers)
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
1. Money comes from customers (Ur stockholders don't pull pennys out of their [bleep] to invest in your business when u cant make them money)
2. Happy customers = paying customers = steady revenue, if not, you're always going to be at a mad rush to acquire new customers faster then the old ones are leaving.. Sound familiar? (hint: the current rate of DLC release of ESO). No MMO has ever had this much pressure to churn out new content at this pace. Its definitely not sustainable. Their business model literally is enticing new customers who will last for at most 1 or 2 DLCs and then get some more when these people leave. They don't seem to give a flying hoot about the people who have already bought their game. How does that make you feel?
3. Unhappy customers = bad publicity; you might think one or 2 letters raging at your hr department might be a non-issue but keep up ur trash and you will see thousands of negative reviews plastered on magazines/ratings etc and the stockholders you value ever so highly will turn tail and dump your stocks right in the bin where it belongs.
Extra trivia:
a)Google, Apple, Fed Ex, Amazon & Marriott. Guess what these giants all have in common?
Yep you guessed it, they are consistently rated by their CUSTOMERS and even employees as having the best relations and support on glassdoor, forbes, 24/7 Wall Street etc.
b)Wal-mart, AT&T, Verizon & Wells Fargo. Yep you probably guessed it again, these guys have the worst relations.
Wanna take a guess at which group of companies are doing better? a or b? So take your nonsense about how customers don't matter and shove it back up your [bleep] where it came from.
Yes you need to satisfy your stockholders but it should never come at the cost of your customers satisfaction. Any business that takes its customers for granted will end up being unsustainable.
Yeah, burger joints aren't going to change their lettuce from iceberg to Romaine, but you sure as hell bet they're going to replace your burger if you find the meat has gone bad. Essentially, with ESO and its game breaking bugs, this is the analogy you want to be using. Its like you ordered a burger, it got served cool with soggy vegetables. You try telling the waiter your food has gone bad but the waiter shoves the menu into your face and asks you to buy dessert. One might ask what game breaking bugs? PvP lag, racial passives not working, multiple mundus stones etc etc, I can go on and on. Some of these bugs have been around for years and more to come. Yet they keep slapping DLC after DLC asking us to buy desserts. We aren't a bunch of snobs asking for Romaine lettuce instead of iceberg here. We'r asking them to give us the damn cheeseburger we ordered instead of the one week old microwaved frozen burger they're slapping on our tray. Just go watch a single episode of "kitchen nightmares" and even though its probably staged and exaggerated, you'll see the point im trying to make.
That is correct - the holy grail of customer relations goes even further - to serve them that well, that they go viral and suggest it to their friends with a passion - this is what has to be achieved and all will be happy - a win-win situation. But it can as well go into the other direction - an unhappy customer - regardless if he is right or wrong - can blog that or spread his dissatisfaction in a social network and or makes an angry video about it and that goes viral - then you have huge damage in your business - just because you neglected that customer.Edited by [Deleted User] on March 21, 2016 9:45PM2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS TOS states the product you are using is a service. After Napster/illegal downloading scandals, companies with digital rights/products shifted towards stating that you are paying money to "use their service". This could explain why you don't official own the software to easily use many consumer protections ( also why their TOS wants many countries to forgo their legal rights pertaining to certain court cases/laws but have to read those further).
In case anyone doesn't know, here are your basic bill of rights enacted in 1963 (thanks JFK!)
"1. The Right to Be Safe - The Right was established in 1972 by the U.S. federal government. This right ensures safety of consumers against injuries caused by the products when the products are purchased.
2.The Right to Choose Freely - The right to free choice among products states that consumers will have a variety of options provided by different companies from which to choose.
3. The Right to be heard - This right ensures the opportunity to the consumers to voice complaints and concerns about a product in order to have the issue handled efficiently and responsively.
4. The right to be informed- This right states that businesses should always provide consumers with sufficient information to make informed product choices. Product information provided by a business should always be complete and truthful.
5.The Right to Education- This right ensures that consumers are educated to make better marketplace decisions at all times.
6.The Right to Service – This right ensures that better services are provided to the consumes."
Yes you do have a right to not pay for this service if it's unsatisfacory. But you all have a right to persist in information regarding its changes, access to better working versions, etc.
Source:
-http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/consumer-bill-of-rights/
- http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=9108
- http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/government/oca-agencies/dpl-lp/consumer-fact-sheets/consumer-bill-of-rights.htmlEdited by Minno on March 21, 2016 8:37PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual3 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »Basic lesson for OP.
One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.
Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.
There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.
Walmart is a necessary evil. Phone companies were once necessary evil. Cable is a monopoly. If you eat mcdonalds, youre doing life wrong anyways. All bad comparisons.
MMOs are a service and services and retail the general consensus is: "one uhappy customer turns into ten lost customers"
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »Basic lesson for OP.
One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.
Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.
There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.
Walmart is a necessary evil. Phone companies were once necessary evil. Cable is a monopoly. If you eat mcdonalds, youre doing life wrong anyways. All bad comparisons.
MMOs are a service and services and retail the general consensus is: "one uhappy customer turns into ten lost customers"
with facebook in place it could even be worse - one unhappy customer could cause thousands of followers/friends to not use the service.2 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »Basic lesson for OP.
One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.
Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.
There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.
Walmart is a necessary evil. Phone companies were once necessary evil. Cable is a monopoly. If you eat mcdonalds, youre doing life wrong anyways. All bad comparisons.
MMOs are a service and services and retail the general consensus is: "one uhappy customer turns into ten lost customers"
with facebook in place it could even be worse - one unhappy customer could cause thousands of followers/friends to not use the service.
We agree on something Lysette!
High five!0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »Basic lesson for OP.
One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.
Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.
There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.
Walmart is a necessary evil. Phone companies were once necessary evil. Cable is a monopoly. If you eat mcdonalds, youre doing life wrong anyways. All bad comparisons.
MMOs are a service and services and retail the general consensus is: "one uhappy customer turns into ten lost customers"
with facebook in place it could even be worse - one unhappy customer could cause thousands of followers/friends to not use the service.
We agree on something Lysette!
High five!
I think we are not even that far off from each other, it is more a misunderstanding than disagreement - we might have different views, but we want the same thing.0 -
scorpiodog✭✭✭✭✭
Mean? lol Venting? lmaoNot trying to be mean, but if you think you throw "basic lessons" and all of a sudden there will be fewer of those, then you're a fool as well. I'm not even questioning the contents of your lesson (that's been handled nicely by ... ), just that it simply doesn't matter. Hope venting it out helped, though.
No, I'm just expressing a point of view. Some people agree and others disagree.
If anyone is bent out of shape about an opinion that's on them.
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »Basic lesson for OP.
One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.
Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.
There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.
Walmart is a necessary evil. Phone companies were once necessary evil. Cable is a monopoly. If you eat mcdonalds, youre doing life wrong anyways. All bad comparisons.
MMOs are a service and services and retail the general consensus is: "one uhappy customer turns into ten lost customers"
with facebook in place it could even be worse - one unhappy customer could cause thousands of followers/friends to not use the service.
This is a typical tactic in normal client-business relations. Ideal practices aim to solidify client's perception on the businesses they do work with. When a client is unhappy, its generally understood 3-5 more will be equally unhappy since word travels fast.
Sadly, ZOS has shifted towards new players to make up the loss of experienced "clients". Many of their methods are possibly abusive, depending on the advertising/gameplay mode/subscription tactic being used. Most are positive but there are a few points in ESO's history that leaves you wondering "imagine if this was a physical product..."Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
thessera✭✭People tend to forget that the one who has the power are the customers, w/o customers there will be no money..1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Calippe_Hac wrote: »Perhaps it is time for
FTC, Consumer protection agencies should do this for you.
Related but not:
http://www.pcgamesn.com/german-consumer-protection-group-will-take-valve-court-over-steam-eula-if-company-doesn-t-respond-cease-and-desist-order
German consumer group took Valve to court over their TOS that gave consumers two options "comply or be locked out of your games". EU determined, that steam games were eligible for resale as the Union determined video games were products, thus subject to the same resell rights as other products.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Calippe_Hac wrote: »Perhaps it is time for
FTC, Consumer protection agencies should do this for you.
Related but not:
http://www.pcgamesn.com/german-consumer-protection-group-will-take-valve-court-over-steam-eula-if-company-doesn-t-respond-cease-and-desist-order
German consumer group took Valve to court over their TOS that gave consumers two options "comply or be locked out of your games". EU determined, that steam games were eligible for resale as the Union determined video games were products, thus subject to the same resell rights as other products.
One more thing Europe does right over USA. Sigh, we will get there one day.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »ThatGuyCameron wrote: »I've been here for 2 months and I'm tired of these bugs im quitin
Can I have your stuff?
If he has only been here for 2 months, all his stuff is BoP.
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Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭scorpiodog wrote: »@Vangy
What is stupid is if someone gets angry, hostile and aggressive towards people having a discussion in a discussion forum.
My game works fine and the way I want it to. There are a few minor glitches, but no big deal for me.
Well I apologize for the hostility but when you prance about stating your opinions as sure-fire truths under the title "basic lessons", what did you expect? <-- Honest question. People to applaud you and give u a hug? Next time you want to "express a point of view" as you so conveniently suggested, avoid phrasing it the way you did. Also if you don't notice any big glitches I think its safe to say you're either oblivious or still not at end game where things matter. Questing is so ridiculously easy that all the bugs in the world short of quest breaking bugs wont stop you from completing them and having a good time. Sadly I've done the whole story including every single quest and achieves like "savior of nirn", "tamriel sky shard hunter", "master angler", etc etc more than twice over so trust me when I say this game has more then its fair share of game breaking bugs. Just try climbing a cliff one of these days in the game. I can bet sooner or later (most likely sooner) you're toon is going to get locked in a semi-climb/fall animation for at least 5-10 seconds. This has been around for YEARS.
The truth is, the "basic lessons" you listed out are bad for any business. Some companies do get away with trashy relations but that is most likely because they have a monopoly. Any company that has legitimate competition bends over backwards for its customers. Just look at IOS vs Android. These guys are perpetually trying to gain each others market shares. ESO falls into the same category and frankly I believe is surviving because a HUGE portion of the player base just play it because we are Elder scrolls franchise fanbois/gurls but the novelty WILL eventually wear out, and I pray by the time that day comes, ESO will be an amazing game that can stand for itself against other MMOs that also WILL come out.
I'm not particularly pleased with the game's current state, but I do want it to get better because ESO dying out would make me sad =(
Again 90% of us are not asking for ESO devs to cater to our each and every whim. We just want the BUGSSSSS that EVERYONE KNOWS AND ACKNOWLEDGES to be fixed. Some of these bugs/exploits have been around for a YEAR+? Its INSANITY!Edited by Vangy on March 22, 2016 6:48AM(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz4 -
Liukke✭✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »
Mean? lol Venting? lmaoNot trying to be mean, but if you think you throw "basic lessons" and all of a sudden there will be fewer of those, then you're a fool as well. I'm not even questioning the contents of your lesson (that's been handled nicely by ... ), just that it simply doesn't matter. Hope venting it out helped, though.
No, I'm just expressing a point of view. Some people agree and others disagree.
If anyone is bent out of shape about an opinion that's on them.
The point is, you are not wrong.
But if ZoS thinks about businesses like you think then it's totally doomed, and I'm not surprised that this is one of the worst launching mmos ever (talking about big scale and big name mmos) since this will lead to their failure or just live with a broken half game for years.
On top of that you told this was a business lesson, and this is not, it's a bad business lesson, really bad, not wrong but a lesson for a 4-5 years lifespan business that just wants to make some quick money then screw everything up 3 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »I see so many absurd comments on this forum and in Youtube videos I feel the need for a basic lesson in the realities of Business:
People invest in a business to make money. Yes, it would be nice if any company actually cared more about their customers than their bottom line, but that just isn't going to happen. Whole Foods, WallMart, Blizzard, Wizzards of the Coast - they all operate with shareholders as their first, second, and third priority. At best they try to PRETEND they care about you more than their bottom line, but they don't. If you can' accept that you have a very disappointing future ahead of you. Heck, even Greenpeace is more concerned about revenues than actually solving environmental problems and they aren't even a for-profit organization. Try telling Greenpeace how they can improve and see how far you get, lmao.
Every Cost and Risk must be assessed for expected gain "It would be cool if" is not a reason to expend R&D. If you want a company to change something, you have to explain how that up-front expenditure will turn a profit.
Purchasing a product does not give you any "say" Try writing a strongly worded letter to any fast food joint that you are a customer and as such, you suggest they use romaine lettuce instead of iceberg lettuce. There is no question that romaine makes a tastier burger - no question at all, but that doesn't mean they will do what you say just because you bought a few burgers there. Pick any other company and any other product and it is the same - just because you purchase a product does not mean you have ANY say in management decisions, marketing, right to protest on their property against them, or whatever.
Freedom of speech is a right, but so is refusal of service Frankly if someone comes to my place of business IRL and starts loudly complaining I show them the door. If they have legitimate concerns and bring them up in a mature way, I deal with them. But if they start getting an attitude or think I owe them anything they can bring their unprofitable problems to my competitors and good riddance. You are customers, not members of a cooperative.
Old customers are not more profitable than new customersWith ESO I would say the opposite is true. They have already made a product they can sell to new customers, but for older customers they have to incur new costs. The least profitable customers are those that play the most, and the most profitable are the casual players. In addition to using CPU processing time and bandwidth, high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums, and often ruin the experience for new customers. Personally if it were my business I'd try to get rid of you at all costs. Again - bring your unprofitable problems to the competition and good riddance.
If you could do it better, you would have alreadyThere may be a few ESO customers who can put together million-dollar deals and convince investors to put money into a "cool idea" for a video game, but more than likely if they cold they would have already and we would be playing your game. That means that in all likelihood your "cool idea" is only that - cool - but not profitable or technically workable.
The customer is always right Hahahahahahaha - HA! If you actually believe companies when they tell you this, well ... let's just say I never want to eat in a restaurant with you. You probably don't realize the crimes against humanity that are being inflicted upon your seven-course meal when you send your soup back for being too hot.
Now, nothing in this post is meant to say that legitimate concerns and problems are not valid reasons to complain - submit a ticket and it will either be solved or it won't and then you can make a decision to leave or to stay. I'm just tired of seeing so much MMO VETERAN CRYBABY talk. If you are going to leave because your every whim isn't catered to - then leave. Nobody probably cares because you are a problem customer and worst sin of all, unprofitable. Stop blowing through a year's worth of good RPG content in less than a week and then complaining no one is making content to meet your special snowflake needs. And stop talking about you were here "from the beginning". Yeah, and I played Daggerfall in the 1990s - no one cares if you started ESO in 2014 or how many thousands of hours you've played since then. Right now you're not helping.
Just to point it out I don't necessarily disagree with you on anything.
However...
1-Zenimax is not publicly traded. It makes for a different animal when that's the case.
2-"cool" factor in a game is why people play games and continue playing them.
3-Purchasing a product gives consumers more say than any company will ever allow themselves to admit. There is a reason why many companies are looking for positive reviews and why some have even taken action on negative ones.
4-"Refusal of Service" without cause can bring a lawsuit on you.
5-"old customers" bring in new customers. I've brought about 6 "new customers" to the game and they play regularly. If I decided to leave for another mmo, it's very likely every one of them follows me.
6-You discount the fact that many people that are involved had nothing to do with creating the game and it's just a job. Also, there is no reason an avid player can have a good idea that's better than the developer.
7-The customer is always right doesn't actually mean the customer is always right. It means staff should bend over backwards to guarantee customer satisfaction. Obviously you can't please them all, but if you just don't try and have this ridiculous notion that the customer isn't the be all, end all... you will be without customers.
Lastly, totally agree about the mmo crybaby. The difference now is the mmo crybaby streams and has a fair bit of say over what they would have had in the past. Most (if not all) are the worst of the worst in game, the source of exploits and of countless dev hours trying to fix what turds like them break and exploit. The problem with them is mostly they are only interested in what's good for them.2 -
scorpiodog✭✭✭✭✭
The point is, you are not wrong.
But if ZoS thinks about businesses like you think then it's totally doomed, and I'm not surprised that this is one of the worst launching mmos ever (talking about big scale and big name mmos) since this will lead to their failure or just live with a broken half game for years.
On top of that you told this was a business lesson, and this is not, it's a bad business lesson, really bad, not wrong but a lesson for a 4-5 years lifespan business that just wants to make some quick money then screw everything up
I hope you are right and that business model is doomed. I'm cynical about it though because over the past decade I've just seen so many companies (non-gaming) charging subscriptions and giving you a cheaper product and worse service. I would look forward to a time when the economy isn't fueled by cheap low-quality products and services - but I just see the majority of people chasing after the next "latest and greatest", consuming it as fast as possible, not finding it satisfying, then moving on to the next product that is launched before it is ready. I'm not saying this is what happened in gaming (maybe it has maybe not), but I see it in non-gaming companies everywhere.Edited by scorpiodog on March 22, 2016 5:24AM1 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭The burger you mention is most likely done well and eatable.
ESO is barely playable sometimes, in most dungeons i ran 2 or more people crashed at the same time, came back then 1-3 other people crashed.
ESO is like a burnt burger and every fast food replaces that. And they also listen to costumers so they can sell stuff people actually want if possible.
Not fixing game progression or stability bugs over a few weeks has a financiar impact. Games closed due to that. Sure ESO has an endless money bag from ZOS but it did not even turn a profit or so it was a few months ago.
Making the players happy = people spend more. Keeping players = more revenue long term, WOW had people subbed for years without adding all that much content. BUT what they added was repeatable and fun, usually a good design.
Also in that game you did not have game wide stability issues or game breaking bugs stay in, they fixed that asap.2 -
MikeB✭✭✭✭✭ESO was in dev for 7 years, has been in official release for 2 years and still has bugs, glitches and exploits from BETA. So from what you've said I should not complain about this? Just be happy Ive paid over US$500.00 to a company that all but refuses to talk to its customers or fix the problems in their game?
Any business knows bad reviews equals fewer future customers as word of mouth has always brought in more customers than anything else. Long time customers in most cases bring in more money than new customers, why? Because if their happy will buy most new products you release. I have a friend that bought the US$60.00 mount speed upgrade for every new character he made over the past year on PC & Console, bought every DLC, kept ESO+ and bought most of the crown store items. I know for a fact he's spent over US$1000.00 on ESO (PC & Console) over the past year and now he's quit. Why? Because he can't take the bugs, exploits, glitches, lack of communication, balance along with many other issues. How much do you think a new customer will bring in? Depending on their platform $10-$40 for the game and that's all you can guarantee, most will quit before spending another dime, those that stay may spend a little but no where near the same as he. Everyone I played with was happy to give ZOS their money until 1-2 months ago we all slowly quit.
The Division patches glitches, balance issues, bugs, exploits, etc... every week, why can't ZOS?2 -
Cryhavoc✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »I see so many absurd comments on this forum and in Youtube videos I feel the need for a basic lesson in the realities of Business:b]People invest in a business to make money.[/b] Yes, it would be nice if any company actually cared more about their customers than their bottom line, but that just isn't going to happen. Whole Fo ods, WallMart, Blizzard, Wizzards of the Coast - they all operate with shareholders as their first, second, and third priority. At best they try to PRETEND they care about you more than their bottom line, but they don't. If you can' accept that you have a very disappointing future ahead of you. Heck, even Greenpeace is more concerned about revenues than actually solving environmental problems and they aren't even a for-profit organization. Try telling Greenpeace how they can improve and see how far you get, lmao.
Every Cost and Risk must be assessed for expected gain "It would be cool if" is not a reason to expend R&D. If you want a company to change something, you have to explain how that up-front expenditure will turn a profit.
Purchasing a product does not give you any "say" Try writing a strongly worded letter to any fast food joint that you are a customer and as such, you suggest they use romaine lettuce instead of iceberg lettuce. There is no question that romaine makes a tastier burger - no question at all, but that doesn't mean they will do what you say just because you bought a few burgers there. Pick any other company and any other product and it is the same - just because you purchase a product does not mean you have ANY say in management decisions, marketing, right to protest on their property against them, or whatever.
Freedom of speech is a right, but so is refusal of service Frankly if someone comes to my place of business IRL and starts loudly complaining I show them the door. If they have legitimate concerns and bring them up in a mature way, I deal with them. But if they start getting an attitude or think I owe them anything they can bring their unprofitable problems to my competitors and good riddance. You are customers, not members of a cooperative.
Old customers are not more profitable than new customersWith ESO I would say the opposite is true. They have already made a product they can sell to new customers, but for older customers they have to incur new costs. The least profitable customers are those that play the most, and the most profitable are the casual players. In addition to using CPU processing time and bandwidth, high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums, and often ruin the experience for new customers. Personally if it were my business I'd try to get rid of you at all costs. Again - bring your unprofitable problems to the competition and good riddance.
If you could do it better, you would have alreadyThere may be a few ESO customers who can put together million-dollar deals and convince investors to put money into a "cool idea" for a video game, but more than likely if they cold they would have already and we would be playing your game. That means that in all likelihood your "cool idea" is only that - cool - but not profitable or technically workable.
The customer is always right Hahahahahahaha - HA! If you actually believe companies when they tell you this, well ... let's just say I never want to eat in a restaurant with you. You probably don't realize the crimes against humanity that are being inflicted upon your seven-course meal when you send your soup back for being too hot.
Now, nothing in this post is meant to say that legitimate concerns and problems are not valid reasons to complain - submit a ticket and it will either be solved or it won't and then you can make a decision to leave or to stay. I'm just tired of seeing so much MMO VETERAN CRYBABY talk. If you are going to leave because your every whim isn't catered to - then leave. Nobody probably cares because you are a problem customer and worst sin of all, unprofitable. Stop blowing through a year's worth of good RPG content in less than a week and then complaining no one is making content to meet your special snowflake needs. And stop talking about you were here "from the beginning". Yeah, and I played Daggerfall in the 1990s - no one cares if you started ESO in 2014 or how many thousands of hours you've played since then. Right now you're not helping.
Zenimax would fail if they adopted this philosophy.2 -
Sunver✭✭✭Thread starter needs to put economy books on the shelf and grab Dale Carnegie most famous book. It's probably impossible to be successful in any bussiness with an attitude like this...When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!4 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭Thread starter needs to put economy books on the shelf and grab Dale Carnegie most famous book. It's probably impossible to be successful in any bussiness with an attitude like this...
This.
Also what he said is against my experience as a programmer when i used to work.
The mobile game studios used the play store rating system to search for people who gave out low ratings and find out why so they can improve.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sunver It's why the thread creator posted it on a gaming forum. No one who runs a successful, healthy business can take him seriously. His point of view is how a "make a quick buck then let it die" business is run. [Removed]
Thankfully ZOS is not like this. They frustrate the players, but aren't corrupt. ZOS wants ESO to last a very long time and to keep on making money, only it's done in an inefficient way by neglecting PvP <--- biggest advertisement/seller of the gameEdited by Vaoh on March 22, 2016 7:06AM2 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ty for the "noob" thread.
STILL a slightly better RNG is NOT going to hurt the business model.
STILL Better communication is NOT going to hurt the business model.
STILL listen to the people who actually spend their time on the official game forums is NOT going to hurt the business model.
What is wrong here is NOT the basic business understanding (some of us will never ever have the chance to run a company or else, is not needed as an info for many, and on a side note quite every point that you have made are related to the worst business model ever) is the childish attitude that some people have.
Edited by Tonnopesce on March 22, 2016 7:47AMSignature1 -
Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also I seem to notice that a fair bit of people give way too much credit to EULAs. They seem to feel that because of EULAs ZOS doesnt need to do anything to the game and that we should all forever be thankful to ZOS for not packing up shop right this very day. So ,to all those who believe that EULA's are iron clad.. Thy're not. They are considered contracts of adhesion. A contract of adhesion is when one party with superior bargaining power (Zos for example) enforces its terms on an other party (ESO players for example) with no meaningful choices given due to 0 negotiations. Basically a take it or leave it contract. As such, this EULA (contract) has a very REAL possibility of being unconscionable. An unconscionable contract is one that cannot be enforced due to unjust terms.
For goodness sake, there is a huge part of the EULA that forbids class action lawsuits against ZOS. So lets say for example, ZOS makes a new patch that makes all our PCs and consoles catch on fire and burn to crisp, you wouldnt be able to band together as consumers and take them to court. You'd have to sit in arbitration as individuals therefore being unable to share the risks associated with lawsuits in the event that you lose. There is a clause that states you "can" opt out of giving up your rights to class action lawsuits if you mail ZOS within 30 days of TOS acceptance but lets face it. How many of you even knew about this? My guess would be less then 20%. You could be an average joe working 9-5 pitted against a multi million dollar corporation. Furthermore, there is a max payout cap enforced in the EULA ZOS provides.
If you seriously think ZOS can do whatever they want and not be sued due to EULAs, your insane or oblivious. EULAs cant overrule your constitutional rights. There is enough precedent. Try googling lawsuits+EULAs. The EULAs just act as a deterrent that prevents millions of lame [bleep] frivolous lawsuits that could plague a company. Especially those in the digital/software industry. Without EULAs these companies could be facing every tom, *** and harry who claims that the software they bought was not working as intended/made their pc screw up etc etc. These contracts do NOT however give companies like ZOS immunity from everything they do. I could sell you a software with an EULA that states I now own your house,car and wife/husband and I bet thousands would still click agree. But that wont hold up in a court of law.... I cant just walk over to your house and drive away with your car and wife/husband -_-"(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz3 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Edited by Gargath on March 22, 2016 7:30AMPC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »
The point is, you are not wrong.
But if ZoS thinks about businesses like you think then it's totally doomed, and I'm not surprised that this is one of the worst launching mmos ever (talking about big scale and big name mmos) since this will lead to their failure or just live with a broken half game for years.
On top of that you told this was a business lesson, and this is not, it's a bad business lesson, really bad, not wrong but a lesson for a 4-5 years lifespan business that just wants to make some quick money then screw everything up
I hope you are right and that business model is doomed. I'm cynical about it though because over the past decade I've just seen so many companies (non-gaming) charging subscriptions and giving you a cheaper product and worse service. I would look forward to a time when the economy isn't fueled by cheap low-quality products and services - but I just see the majority of people chasing after the next "latest and greatest", consuming it as fast as possible, not finding it satisfying, then moving on to the next product that is launched before it is ready. I'm not saying this is what happened in gaming (maybe it has maybe not), but I see it in non-gaming companies everywhere.
The problem with the gaming industry is that they are selling an addictive product - so the rules of drug dealers apply here in regards how they handle their clients. and those are different ones - this is why they can get away with crappy products. Now some are even selling "early access" to an alpha-state game at a full price - and people wonder, why those products will never get finished - why should they even be finished, you can just sell the next unfinished "early access" for a full price, there is no need to ever finish such a game - this is just possible and viable for them, because gaming is addictive.4 -
Too many walls of text.
There are a number of things openly accepted by ZOS as bugs; lag, 64bit client etc, which ZOS say they are planning (trying) to fix. However, many of the other things being complained about are game play. It’s only a bug if the code doesn’t do what ZOS intended. It’s not a bug if the code does what it was written to do but that isn’t what we as players would like it to do.
That appears to me to be the crux of the problem. Many of the things complained about aren’t bugs. Class imbalance isn’t a bug so long as the code does what it was intended by ZOS to do. The fact that some (many?) players would like (want/demand) the game play to be changed does not make it a bug.
The number of real, as opposed to game play, “bugs” in this game is modest. Lag is a shocking potential show stopper, however, many play through it with the hope that the attempted fix comes soon tm. There are few other acknowledged bugs, most of the other perceived "bugs" appear to be game play issues where some players would like a change but the code is actually working as intended.
The vast majority of the cries for bug fixes are in reality requests for game play changes.
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Morozov✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »The customer is always right Hahahahahahaha - HA! If you actually believe companies when they tell you this, well ... let's just say I never want to eat in a restaurant with you. You probably don't realize the crimes against humanity that are being inflicted upon your seven-course meal when you send your soup back for being too hot.
can confirm: worked in "food" related industries in the past. Don't send back food unless it is waaaaayyy off the mark from what you ordered. "You wanted medium-rare and its a wee bit closer to medium?" take what you are given...or else
as an edit: I just want to say I agree with you. At times I feel for the Dev's cause of what they must put up with and at times I have the same frustrations as people on the forums, but in the end all my ranting and raving will get me nowhere because the question has to be answered, "how will this impact the business"Edited by Morozov on March 22, 2016 1:11PMAD
Victorem
PC - NA - AZ
Vr 16: Morozov - DK
Vr 1: Zephyr Grimm - Sorc
Vr 5: Sad_Bunnie - Templar
23: Repressed-Canadian-Rage - NB
Voted "Most likely to squirrel off the crown" PC-NA1 -
b92303008rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »I see so many absurd comments on this forum and in Youtube videos I feel the need for a basic lesson in the realities of Business:
People invest in a business to make money. Yes, it would be nice if any company actually cared more about their customers than their bottom line, but that just isn't going to happen. Whole Foods, WallMart, Blizzard, Wizzards of the Coast - they all operate with shareholders as their first, second, and third priority. At best they try to PRETEND they care about you more than their bottom line, but they don't. If you can' accept that you have a very disappointing future ahead of you. Heck, even Greenpeace is more concerned about revenues than actually solving environmental problems and they aren't even a for-profit organization. Try telling Greenpeace how they can improve and see how far you get, lmao.
Every Cost and Risk must be assessed for expected gain "It would be cool if" is not a reason to expend R&D. If you want a company to change something, you have to explain how that up-front expenditure will turn a profit.
Purchasing a product does not give you any "say" Try writing a strongly worded letter to any fast food joint that you are a customer and as such, you suggest they use romaine lettuce instead of iceberg lettuce. There is no question that romaine makes a tastier burger - no question at all, but that doesn't mean they will do what you say just because you bought a few burgers there. Pick any other company and any other product and it is the same - just because you purchase a product does not mean you have ANY say in management decisions, marketing, right to protest on their property against them, or whatever.
Freedom of speech is a right, but so is refusal of service Frankly if someone comes to my place of business IRL and starts loudly complaining I show them the door. If they have legitimate concerns and bring them up in a mature way, I deal with them. But if they start getting an attitude or think I owe them anything they can bring their unprofitable problems to my competitors and good riddance. You are customers, not members of a cooperative.
Old customers are not more profitable than new customersWith ESO I would say the opposite is true. They have already made a product they can sell to new customers, but for older customers they have to incur new costs. The least profitable customers are those that play the most, and the most profitable are the casual players. In addition to using CPU processing time and bandwidth, high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums, and often ruin the experience for new customers. Personally if it were my business I'd try to get rid of you at all costs. Again - bring your unprofitable problems to the competition and good riddance.
If you could do it better, you would have alreadyThere may be a few ESO customers who can put together million-dollar deals and convince investors to put money into a "cool idea" for a video game, but more than likely if they cold they would have already and we would be playing your game. That means that in all likelihood your "cool idea" is only that - cool - but not profitable or technically workable.
The customer is always right Hahahahahahaha - HA! If you actually believe companies when they tell you this, well ... let's just say I never want to eat in a restaurant with you. You probably don't realize the crimes against humanity that are being inflicted upon your seven-course meal when you send your soup back for being too hot.
Now, nothing in this post is meant to say that legitimate concerns and problems are not valid reasons to complain - submit a ticket and it will either be solved or it won't and then you can make a decision to leave or to stay. I'm just tired of seeing so much MMO VETERAN CRYBABY talk. If you are going to leave because your every whim isn't catered to - then leave. Nobody probably cares because you are a problem customer and worst sin of all, unprofitable. Stop blowing through a year's worth of good RPG content in less than a week and then complaining no one is making content to meet your special snowflake needs. And stop talking about you were here "from the beginning". Yeah, and I played Daggerfall in the 1990s - no one cares if you started ESO in 2014 or how many thousands of hours you've played since then. Right now you're not helping.
Yet, none of these excuses justify The Elder Scrolls Online: Bugs and Performance Issues Unlimited.1
