Basic Lessons in Real LIfe Business (for whiners/complainers)

scorpiodog

aubrey.baconb16_ESO wrote: »

Too many walls of text.

There are a number of things openly accepted by ZOS as bugs; lag, 64bit client etc, which ZOS say they are planning (trying) to fix. However, many of the other things being complained about are game play. It’s only a bug if the code doesn’t do what ZOS intended. It’s not a bug if the code does what it was written to do but that isn’t what we as players would like it to do.

That appears to me to be the crux of the problem. Many of the things complained about aren’t bugs. Class imbalance isn’t a bug so long as the code does what it was intended by ZOS to do. The fact that some (many?) players would like (want/demand) the game play to be changed does not make it a bug.

The number of real, as opposed to game play, “bugs” in this game is modest. Lag is a shocking potential show stopper, however, many play through it with the hope that the attempted fix comes soon tm. There are few other acknowledged bugs, most of the other perceived "bugs" appear to be game play issues where some players would like a change but the code is actually working as intended.

The vast majority of the cries for bug fixes are in reality requests for game play changes.

This is worth repeating

scorpiodog

Vangy wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

@Vangy
What is stupid is if someone gets angry, hostile and aggressive towards people having a discussion in a discussion forum.

My game works fine and the way I want it to. There are a few minor glitches, but no big deal for me.

Well I apologize for the hostility but when you prance about ...

Prancing?

scorpiodog

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

and phase B

players leave game, almost noboby buying things at cashshop, investors dont get their money back or dont get expected profit, so they leave this market, devs losing jobs

As someone that has managed in retail... All I see with your post is "devs losing jobs" which is the threat I always heard from the worst of the worst of customerdom... the "I want someone fired and I want to watch" threat.

I always responded with "so you want X fired and you want to watch and walk up to him/her with me when I do it?" To which the reply was usually "yes". That's when I informed them "well that's not happening, you have a nice day".

EXACTLY!!!

People should be fired for doing something wrong - not for working hard but being in a no-win situation.

vamp_emily

Regardless if anyone cares, I think we all have the right to whine/complain.

whine/complaint:

Seriously.. ZOS how freaking long does it take fix the lag? Other games have battles of 500 players, but you can't figure out how to fix lag when there is 20 people in one location??

OMG, what is wrong with the Transitus system.. it totally sucks! My slow horse can travel keep to keep faster than using a Transitus shrine. Might as well put some commercials in the load screens so i can be entertained. Why not replace the Transitus shrines with forward camps. Traveling to a forward camp is like 500 times faster

Why do people cry all the time about WB???? I die so many times, but never complain about it. But once I hit someone with a 43k WB they won't quit crying.

Now I feel better

anitajoneb17_ESO

Minno wrote: »

Clients don't get to demand workers be fired, though.

but MANY players on this forum feel entitled to openly ask Wrobel and others to get fired. This is totally unacceptable, not only from a courtesy point of view, but also from a business point of view. Customers do not manage their suppliers' companies. Companies make decisions. Whether these decisions are good or bad is measured by profit. Short term or long term profit, depending on what the investors agreed upon. They might also simply agree to have finances balanced out, without profit (that's how non-profit organizations work). No matter the business model, this financial aspect is crucial, regardless if money is a mean to an end or the ultimate goal itself. OP never said either that customers do not matter : he said that customers are also just a mean to an end. Yes, they should be satisfied, but NO, they don't get to decide. Their only power is to purchase and use the product... OR NOT. And yes, unhappy ESO players should really go play something else rather than carrying on polluting these forums and making bad publicity for the game. If you run a restaurant and some people don't like your food, would you prefer they stay here shouting and disturbing everyone else, or just go eat elsewhere ? The latter, of course.

Last but not least, people mix up two very different things : the quality issues (bugs and performance), and the concept/design issues. We are entitled to get vocal on the quality issues : after all, the game really SHOULD work better than it does. But does that help ? Don't you think ZOS knows ? Do you really think ZOS doesn't care ? They're not stupid. But technically, these issues are very hard to solve. It's no a matter of how many devs are in charge of it, or how much money is invested in solving those issues. It's a technical hurdle. Very highly technical products are fragile, we're all facing a technical hurdle.

When it comes to design issues, we don't get to decide, because we don't have the "big pictures", nor the player base statistics, nor the artistic vision, nor the long term goals. So let's just give "feedback", which is this case is just expressing what we like, what we don't like, what seems making no sense to us, and what we would like, and leave it at that. Demands have no place here.

I'm just fed up with the typical forum complaint "WTF ZOS, that's crap, just fire XYZ, hire more devs, spend your money differently, fix lag, nerf cloak, remove AOE caps and give us PvP arenas".

Minno

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Clients don't get to demand workers be fired, though.

but MANY players on this forum feel entitled to openly ask Wrobel and others to get fired. This is totally unacceptable, not only from a courtesy point of view, but also from a business point of view. Customers do not manage their suppliers' companies. Companies make decisions. Whether these decisions are good or bad is measured by profit. Short term or long term profit, depending on what the investors agreed upon. They might also simply agree to have finances balanced out, without profit (that's how non-profit organizations work). No matter the business model, this financial aspect is crucial, regardless if money is a mean to an end or the ultimate goal itself. OP never said either that customers do not matter : he said that customers are also just a mean to an end. Yes, they should be satisfied, but NO, they don't get to decide. Their only power is to purchase and use the product... OR NOT. And yes, unhappy ESO players should really go play something else rather than carrying on polluting these forums and making bad publicity for the game. If you run a restaurant and some people don't like your food, would you prefer they stay here shouting and disturbing everyone else, or just go eat elsewhere ? The latter, of course.

Last but not least, people mix up two very different things : the quality issues (bugs and performance), and the concept/design issues. We are entitled to get vocal on the quality issues : after all, the game really SHOULD work better than it does. But does that help ? Don't you think ZOS knows ? Do you really think ZOS doesn't care ? They're not stupid. But technically, these issues are very hard to solve. It's no a matter of how many devs are in charge of it, or how much money is invested in solving those issues. It's a technical hurdle. Very highly technical products are fragile, we're all facing a technical hurdle.

When it comes to design issues, we don't get to decide, because we don't have the "big pictures", nor the player base statistics, nor the artistic vision, nor the long term goals. So let's just give "feedback", which is this case is just expressing what we like, what we don't like, what seems making no sense to us, and what we would like, and leave it at that. Demands have no place here.

I'm just fed up with the typical forum complaint "WTF ZOS, that's crap, just fire XYZ, hire more devs, spend your money differently, fix lag, nerf cloak, remove AOE caps and give us PvP arenas".

We can't ethically ask for an employer to remove an employee because we say so. Only thing we can do is take our money elsewhere or push for changes we feel demonstrate the best direction within the service we use daily.

That said, the issues ESO cross the line between implementation and intent numerous times. So it is safe to say that we as clients has a certain right to request changes if we feel the implementation dies not match the intent.

Though many players fail to show proper documentation showing that. But many do a good job.

clayandaudrey_ESO

You are not a client you are a consumer.

Minno

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

You are not a client you are a consumer.

Yes and no.
As per TOS, you are not provided a product via purchase. Are you buying rights to use a service, one that provides an online experience.

It's a new term used so that the ownership of the games IP belongs to the company and not the consumer. It's to protect their product from being copied by the consumer for pirating.
(Thanks RIAA)

Now since we are utilizing a service, we can expect more from the companies especially if the QA and bug reviewing is placed on us, the consumer.

The current consumer bill of rights need to be adjusted to reflect digital property; I don't think it's fair towards the average user/buyer (general comment).

clayandaudrey_ESO

Client : a person or group that uses the professional advice or services of a lawyer, accountant, advertising agency, architect, etc.

Consumer : a person or organization that uses a commodity or service.

WalkingLegacy

Minno wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

You are not a client you are a consumer.

Yes and no.
As per TOS, you are not provided a product via purchase. Are you buying rights to use a service, one that provides an online experience.

It's a new term used so that the ownership of the games IP belongs to the company and not the consumer. It's to protect their product from being copied by the consumer for pirating.
(Thanks RIAA)

Now since we are utilizing a service, we can expect more from the companies especially if the QA and bug reviewing is placed on us, the consumer.

The current consumer bill of rights need to be adjusted to reflect digital property; I don't think it's fair towards the average user/buyer (general comment).

The TOS use to be about protecting their intellectual property. Now it's to protect them from having to provide good service, protect them against flaws and defects in their products, protect them from being sued, etc etc etc.

And consumer laws proceed the TOS although consumer rights have not been properly adjusted for software speak, with the right lawyer you can still beat crooked software companies in court.

lathbury

Cadbury wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Basic lesson for OP.

One unhappy customer turns into ten lost customers.

Tell that to Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, or pretty much any big corp.

There will always be a supply of ready-made customers looking to replace those who left.

Exactly. I still don't see how one angry customer turns into ten unless its just friends who follow each other around like puppies.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying WalkingLegacy is wrong or that I disagree with him/her. My point is that there are alot of companies out there that have a...colorful history in regards to customers and their services. They still survive pretty much to this day because of the fact that ready-made customers are always in supply despite people boycotting them or spreading the word on their experiences.

My grandmother (rest her soul) used to say and believe the same adage "one unhappy customer equals ten". And that may have been true once upon a time, but thanks to trends, apathy, whatever this is no longer the threat it once was

in an age of social media i'd suggest the opposite the companies mentioned especially mc Donalds are renowned for placating disgruntled customers with large out of court settlements to avoid the bad pr.

waterfairy

I agree for the most part but if you completely ignore customer concerns and view them as unimportant then you will lose customers and income...shareholders won't stick with a business that doesn't make money.

That customer that you show the door for lack of patience will take their complaints and wallet to someone who will listen which is poor business. "Customer Service" exists for a reason.

goatlyonesub17_ESO

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

There is no question that romaine makes a tastier burger -

Love this post! However, "taste" is a personal preference. There is no scientific evidence that supports Romaine lettuce is tastier on a burger than Iceburg.

Chilled dandelion leaves are tastier than either kind of lettuce, and they're free. At least in the spring and summer.

lathbury

Marginalizing customer service
Before US Airways was purchased by America West in 2005, the airline slashed its customer service budget, and outsourced many of those functions. As a result, the company mishandled or failed to address numerous complaints, angering customers to the point that no amount of cost-cutting could make up for the fact that passengers didn't want to do business with with the airline, eventually forcing it to file bankruptcy.

an ACTUAL real life business for the OP to refer to so what were you saying?

anitajoneb17_ESO

lathbury wrote: »

Marginalizing customer service
Before US Airways was purchased by America West in 2005, the airline slashed its customer service budget, and outsourced many of those functions. As a result, the company mishandled or failed to address numerous complaints, angering customers to the point that no amount of cost-cutting could make up for the fact that passengers didn't want to do business with with the airline, eventually forcing it to file bankruptcy.

an ACTUAL real life business for the OP to refer to so what were you saying?

1/ what's your source ?
I ask because the reasons for a business to fail and go bankrupt are always multiple - especially in the case of such a big, investment-heavy industry like an airline, so explaining it solely with lack of customer service is certainly a broad simplification that serves an agenda. Furthermore, low-cost airlines all over the world are currently extremely healthy for the most part, and have close to zero customer service. Try to get even a real human on the phone at RyanAir, and we'll talk again.

2/ OP wasn't saying that customers are worth nothing. No businessman will ever say that. He's just saying that customer don't get to decide or to dictate how a company has to be run, and how the products and services are designed. Customer power is limited to buy or not buy (besides, of course, lawsuit, but we're talking business here, not law).

So what were you saying ?

lathbury

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Marginalizing customer service
Before US Airways was purchased by America West in 2005, the airline slashed its customer service budget, and outsourced many of those functions. As a result, the company mishandled or failed to address numerous complaints, angering customers to the point that no amount of cost-cutting could make up for the fact that passengers didn't want to do business with with the airline, eventually forcing it to file bankruptcy.

an ACTUAL real life business for the OP to refer to so what were you saying?

1/ what's your source ?
I ask because the reasons for a business to fail and go bankrupt are always multiple - especially in the case of such a big, investment-heavy industry like an airline, so explaining it solely with lack of customer service is certainly a broad simplification that serves an agenda. Furthermore, low-cost airlines all over the world are currently extremely healthy for the most part, and have close to zero customer service. Try to get even a real human on the phone at RyanAir, and we'll talk again.

2/ OP wasn't saying that customers are worth nothing. No businessman will ever say that. He's just saying that customer don't get to decide or to dictate how a company has to be run, and how the products and services are designed. Customer power is limited to buy or not buy (besides, of course, lawsuit, but we're talking business here, not law).

So what were you saying ?

1. my source google.as an aside my dealings with ryan air have been ok I mean budget sure but with the case of delays or cancelled flights they were very good. 2. the OP stated things like ''as a customer you have no say'' in his post and also things like ''If they start...thinking I owe them anything'' customer power is not limted to buy or not buy even outside of law ''which is related as many companies providing dodgy service have discovered''but in the age of social media 1 customers opinion can gain or lose you many more.
so if the OP had stated that customers dont get to dictate how a company is run thats fine and accurate. But that is not what he said at all and the whole post, even from the title that calls all people with complaints whiners to the end says basically shut up and accept it.
now if ZOS didnt want feedback they would not have forums or customer support and gina and the rest of the community team would not be employed there.
Now not all complaints are valid that is true but some are and regardless of how they are raised a professional company with a decent customer service ethos will investigate and if necessary correct any genuine problems in a timely fashion and be thankful to those who care enough about there product to take the time to give feedback.
I'd also love to be in the position of the OP's Competition because good customer relations is the golden rule of business and they must be raking it in.

Villious

If the OP actually has a business (which I seriously doubt),I can imagine that, with his attitude, it's not a very successful one. What I really believe is this is the best stealth-troll post ever.

Vangy

Im going to have to disagree respectfully here about customer power being limited to buy or not buy. If this was the early 1990s then yeah, customers can only decide to buy or not buy. In the current era, social media is extremely prevalent. So no, unhappy customers arent just going to not buy your product. Thyre gona go instagram it, facebook their bitching, and send photos on whatsapp. One unhappy customer could potentially reach out and influence hundreds. Even more so if the particular customer happens to be a popular blogger etc. Just google "companies that failed due to bad relations etc". Theres plenty of case studies.

People nowadays are VERY frank and VERY outspoken. And they LOVE to ***. No one cares that someone's else's feelings get hurt or whatnot. I tend to notice this very evidently especially in ESO. Some of the older people I play with are very guarded in what they say and how they handle criticism (most of them have the I play how i want dont tell me what to do mentality). Whereas the younger folk are a lot more outspoken and say things quite frankly. Ie: if your toon is doing trashy dps, they just say "hey dude ur dps sucks. fix your build man". So maybe the customer power being limited to buy or not buy might have been the case like 20 years ago, but today, customers have SOOO much more power because they are a lot more vocal and take an active effort to get what they want.

scorpiodog

Villious wrote: »

If the OP actually has a business (which I seriously doubt),I can imagine that, with his attitude, it's not a very successful one. What I really believe is this is the best stealth-troll post ever.

Just because some people are wondering ...

I work in a profession and I have a side business. In both I provide specialized problem solving services that many need, but few have the patience, knowledge and organization to solve. I make enough money in my profession to live the way I want to live, and my side business is "gravy". This is different from ESO as a product, so it's not really relevant to the discussion.

But yes, in my current situation I try to get rid of A-hole clients, cheap *** and shady characters all the time. I quote unreasonable amounts, arbitrarily raise their bill, don't answer if they leave rude messages, don't reschedule people who habitually don't show for appointments, or just tell them how to do it themselves but leave out a few tricks that they need to actually do it. Don't get me wrong - *I* am never rude or unprofessional, but I know how to get rid of unwanted clients. Also I very often choose not to pursue a potential "whale" client if things don't feel right.

That give me more time and less stress to focus on clients who don't waste my time and I can solve more problems, resulting in more happy clients. It's not even really about money - If someone is nice and in trouble but doesn't have the money, I give them a break with a low income-adjusted fee and even let them set up a payment plan.

Again, not really relevant to the discussion and I don't think ESO should do things "my way", but a few people were asking and it is what it is.

In years past I've been a manager over about 30 people and constantly had to balance the "cost -vs- conflicting customer demands" issues, and I've also had to fire people because of BS customer politics and the head honcho didn't want to face the employees himself when they start crying, begging or wanting to fight. IMO being a manager sucks for so many reasons the money isn't worth it.

As a lad in the 90's I also did a long stint teaching English in Europe. Fun stuff. There, too I had both a day job teaching 20-ish students, and a side business teaching mostly private lessons to businessmen and executives.

But I don't think any of this means my OP is any more or less true or untrue.

Or ... maybe I AM the best STEALTH TROLL EVER. Yeah whatever (sarcasm).

I think it continues to be a good discussion for people who actually read it.

Cadbury

Vangy wrote: »

Im going to have to disagree respectfully here about customer power being limited to buy or not buy. If this was the early 1990s then yeah, customers can only decide to buy or not buy. In the current era, social media is extremely prevalent. So no, unhappy customers arent just going to not buy your product. Thyre gona go instagram it, facebook their bitching, and send photos on whatsapp. One unhappy customer could potentially reach out and influence hundreds. Even more so if the particular customer happens to be a popular blogger etc. Just google "companies that failed due to bad relations etc". Theres plenty of case studies.

People nowadays are VERY frank and VERY outspoken. And they LOVE to ***. No one cares that someone's else's feelings get hurt or whatnot. I tend to notice this very evidently especially in ESO. Some of the older people I play with are very guarded in what they say and how they handle criticism (most of them have the I play how i want dont tell me what to do mentality). Whereas the younger folk are a lot more outspoken and say things quite frankly. Ie: if your toon is doing trashy dps, they just say "hey dude ur dps sucks. fix your build man". So maybe the customer power being limited to buy or not buy might have been the case like 20 years ago, but today, customers have SOOO much more power because they are a lot more vocal and take an active effort to get what they want.

People may have more "power", but it comes as a double-edge sword. I'll use ESO as an example. Looking around, you can see various opinions about the state of the game. Yet many times people focus too much on the messenger and not the message. If you'll recall the recent video by Fengrush which address many of the issues of ESO for both PvP and PvE. Yet people were more focused on his language and attitude rather than what he was saying.

Whether you like or dislike him, he raised some good points that were drowned out by those who argued against him. I suppose you could chalk it up to the old Players vs. Streamers arguments that were dragged out as often as the PvE vs. PvP fights.

Yes, we have more "power" now, but human nature is fickle, and sooner or later our egos will take over and let everyone know how our ideas are better than yours.

I imagine it hard for the developer to hear the rational thoughts through all the noise

TL;DR:
We are our own worst enemies

Rokhza

Great post and great discussion.

Lots of good points about whiners but also some balanced thoughts about the value of listening to your customers.

So while life does NOT owe you a game tailored to your wishes it IS important that the player base has a way of expressing their ideas in an constructive way and it IS important that ZOS listens.

Horker

scorpiodog wrote: »

high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums,

thats an insult against;

@FENGRUSH
@speeez

these guys are not ranting, they are helping the game in every way!

Vangy

Cadbury wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Im going to have to disagree respectfully here about customer power being limited to buy or not buy. If this was the early 1990s then yeah, customers can only decide to buy or not buy. In the current era, social media is extremely prevalent. So no, unhappy customers arent just going to not buy your product. Thyre gona go instagram it, facebook their bitching, and send photos on whatsapp. One unhappy customer could potentially reach out and influence hundreds. Even more so if the particular customer happens to be a popular blogger etc. Just google "companies that failed due to bad relations etc". Theres plenty of case studies.

People nowadays are VERY frank and VERY outspoken. And they LOVE to ***. No one cares that someone's else's feelings get hurt or whatnot. I tend to notice this very evidently especially in ESO. Some of the older people I play with are very guarded in what they say and how they handle criticism (most of them have the I play how i want dont tell me what to do mentality). Whereas the younger folk are a lot more outspoken and say things quite frankly. Ie: if your toon is doing trashy dps, they just say "hey dude ur dps sucks. fix your build man". So maybe the customer power being limited to buy or not buy might have been the case like 20 years ago, but today, customers have SOOO much more power because they are a lot more vocal and take an active effort to get what they want.

People may have more "power", but it comes as a double-edge sword. I'll use ESO as an example. Looking around, you can see various opinions about the state of the game. Yet many times people focus too much on the messenger and not the message. If you'll recall the recent video by Fengrush which address many of the issues of ESO for both PvP and PvE. Yet people were more focused on his language and attitude rather than what he was saying.

Whether you like or dislike him, he raised some good points that were drowned out by those who argued against him. I suppose you could chalk it up to the old Players vs. Streamers arguments that were dragged out as often as the PvE vs. PvP fights.

Yes, we have more "power" now, but human nature is fickle, and sooner or later our egos will take over and let everyone know how our ideas are better than yours.

I imagine it hard for the developer to hear the rational thoughts through all the noise

TL;DR:
We are our own worst enemies

Which was exactly my point. Clients and customers, especially today, are a LOT more vocal and much more connected. And a significant portion of them go above and beyond their line of duty to make your life miserable. So it always helps to maintain good relations so that we can minimize the needless noise. Yes, there will always be some customers who are just plain jerks but that's no reason to write off customers as unimportant as a whole. Suffice to say, for businesses to make money, money has to come from somewhere. (from customers pockets). So no matter how big a company you are, unless you have some extravagant monopoly on something so critical to customers such that they have nowhere else to turn to, you would want to do everything in your power to retain your customers and to keep them happy. My point is that ESO needs to start accommodating to some of the more reasonable demands such as the bug fixes which needless to say, should have been implemented long ago. Im not talking about the TG bugs here since TG has just come out and its only natural that there are some bugs present. Im talking about the year long ones and im sure you already know some of these if you play ESO. Them not doing anything (that we can see), just makes people angrier and hence, 90% of the rage on the forums. If they actually started doing something productive, these forums would see a far better atmosphere is my POV.

anitajoneb17_ESO

lathbury wrote: »

1. my source google.as

Google is a source now.... fine. Just believe anything Google finds, as a "source".
Enough said.

.

anitajoneb17_ESO

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums,

thats an insult against;

@FENGRUSH
@speeez

these guys are not ranting, they are helping the game in every way!

No, they're not. They're EXACTLY the kind of people who make communication with ZOS and true constructive feedback so difficult.

.

I_killed_Vivec

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums,

thats an insult against;

@FENGRUSH
@speeez

these guys are not ranting, they are helping the game in every way!

No, they're not. They're EXACTLY the kind of people who make communication with ZOS and true constructive feedback so difficult.

.

I'm inclined to think that anyone with a name is more interested in their own reputation than the game they purport to be supporting.

FENGRUSH

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

scorpiodog wrote: »

high usage players demand more new content sooner, post uninformed BS rant videos to youtube and forums,

thats an insult against;

@FENGRUSH
@speeez

these guys are not ranting, they are helping the game in every way!

No, they're not. They're EXACTLY the kind of people who make communication with ZOS and true constructive feedback so difficult.

.

I'm inclined to think that anyone with a name is more interested in their own reputation than the game they purport to be supporting.

FENGRUSH has a name. Who does not??

anitajoneb17_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm inclined to think that anyone with a name is more interested in their own reputation than the game they purport to be supporting.

FENGRUSH has a name. Who does not??

HaHaHa.
I understand now why the vocabulary in your videos is reduced to a few nasty words. It's because you don't know/understand finer phrasing ;-)

.

Hawco10

While I agree with the OP to an extent, however, the company does have an obligation not just to it's stock holders, but also it's stake holders.
player base, fan base, media outlets, streamers and so on.

JadeNaria

I've stayed away from this thread for numerous reasons. I just want to add the following and that is all.

Regardless of everything I had said in my thread that was removed, everything in this thread mentioned by everyone here, no customer is the same as the next as no business entity is to the next. That is why there are such things as "ethics" for business practices, and such a thing as consumerism google the definition for the last.

- To protect the interests of both parties involved in a transaction whether it be the practicing business or the consumer is why ethics and consumerism exist.

My point, ZoS' way of conducting business is exactly that, their way. My way of going about being a consumer is exactly that, my way. No one here can define how either or should be done or can be standardized regardless of education or whichever business management experience they may have. The only definitive line is the law.

In short, if as a consumer you find poor customer service acceptable then unfortunately i can't do or say anything about that. It's just your mind, personalty or whatever. But, how each individual goes about transactions with a business entity whether in a poorly executed or satisfactory manner is none of the OP's business (pun intended). So the effort put in the concept of setting facts straight or correcting everyone here by the OP is inconsequential. Because how you take it is not how everyone else would necessary like to.

I for one, demand what i receive at the end of a transaction to depict exactly what was described before the transaction took place.

Regards,

JN