The Elder Scrolls Online

Maintenance for the week of July 27:
• [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – July 27, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 11:00AM EDT (15:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – July 27, 10:00 UTC (6:00AM EDT) - 15:00 UTC (11:00AM EDT)

ZOS and breaking stuff on patches

Leave a Reply
Masuimi
Masuimi
✭✭✭
Seriously? Is this normal for a company to break so many mechanics, introduce so many bugs, and stealth nerf so many things on a CONSISTENT basis?

I can't even remember a single patch that didn't have a slew of bugs (not talking 1 or 2 or 3 or 4, but many) coming with it.

What can we as players do to prevent this from continuing to happen? Do we need to do more testing? Longer testing periods before patches? or what?

There has to be some way to mitigate this, because instead of looking forward to patches, I'm always thinking "hmm i wonder what will be broken this time, and how long will we have to put up with it?"

Not meant to be a rant thread, but more of a brainstorming thing.
  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The problem with your idea is that they'd need a LOT more people participating on the PTS than they have now. Sometimes bugs aren't discovered until an update is released to the masses where the game is run by thousands players using many combinations of equipment and more players running a larger variety of content.
    CP: 2130 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
    ~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: May 2026 | Returning: uncertain~~
  • Zanen
    Zanen
    ✭✭✭
    Two things need to happen.

    ZOS needs actual internal testing, so when an update hits PTS it isn't in such rough shape. The IC update was a clear example of this issue, with people spending the entire PTS time figuring out how the math was wrong. That isn't the role of public testing.

    PTS needs to be running all the time with weekly incremental fixes of whatever is most broken. There isn't enough iteration going on to result in clean updates to push live.
  • Animal_Mother
    Animal_Mother
    ✭✭✭✭
    It is important for ESO community to log in to the PTS to test upcoming changes and provide feedback on their experience. But is is paramount that ZOS listens to this feedback and bug reporting to fix the problems before the update is released to Live.

    This PTS felt more of a "look what we did, end of discussion" more than anything else.
  • Selstad
    Selstad
    ✭✭✭✭
    It's rather frequent to be honest, they patch something to break another thing. Blizzard tried to patch things up in the "old" game (pre-cataclysm) for years, until mid Wrath (the 2nd expansion) they just said they wouldn't address any of those issues any more because they would just scrap all that content and make new content. Which also turned out to be bugged.

    And while on the subject of continuing failure, Blizzard is the absolute king of bad game launches. They've always had some problems with their game bugging out when they're releasing a new expansion. The recent added expansion "Warlords of Draenor", was possibly the worst launch of any MMO expansion made by an experienced company, in history of gaming. Mostly because they should have foreseen what would happen. What they did was make the entire quest line in the entire expansion hinge on 1 thing; Garrison (player housing'ish, only worse). And this Garrison was instanced for each player, so every player had to create their own instanced area of their garrison in order to move on. The servers failed, catastrophically, and at a stage they just had to limit the number of players that could get online, because they tried to fix it for 2 days without success. And this from a company with 10 years experience in the field.

    So is it normal for a company to introduce that many bugs and nerfs on a consistent basis? Yup, pretty much working as intended :smile:
  • Essiaga
    Essiaga
    ✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't it be nice ...

    Like what if they fixed things as they came and updated weekly. Then if things don't work the just roll back those few things and try again for next week. Instead they wait to drop a major update and then all hell breaks loose for a month or so while large things like broken skills wait for the next major update.

  • patrickmaurab14_ESO
    patrickmaurab14_ESO
    ✭
    Yep. Never seen a patch released with out people bitching especially large releases
  • b92303008rwb17_ESO
    b92303008rwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Selstad wrote: »
    It's rather frequent to be honest, they patch something to break another thing. Blizzard tried to patch things up in the "old" game (pre-cataclysm) for years, until mid Wrath (the 2nd expansion) they just said they wouldn't address any of those issues any more because they would just scrap all that content and make new content. Which also turned out to be bugged.

    And while on the subject of continuing failure, Blizzard is the absolute king of bad game launches. They've always had some problems with their game bugging out when they're releasing a new expansion. The recent added expansion "Warlords of Draenor", was possibly the worst launch of any MMO expansion made by an experienced company, in history of gaming. Mostly because they should have foreseen what would happen. What they did was make the entire quest line in the entire expansion hinge on 1 thing; Garrison (player housing'ish, only worse). And this Garrison was instanced for each player, so every player had to create their own instanced area of their garrison in order to move on. The servers failed, catastrophically, and at a stage they just had to limit the number of players that could get online, because they tried to fix it for 2 days without success. And this from a company with 10 years experience in the field.

    So is it normal for a company to introduce that many bugs and nerfs on a consistent basis? Yup, pretty much working as intended :smile:

    But WoD did not have that many CTD or performance issues IIRC. At least people got to play the game while ESO currently are unplayable for many players.
  • code65536
    code65536
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's hard to test some things on the PTS because we don't have our own characters for half the testing period, and the template characters... suck.

    The bigger problem, though, is that they had this March 7 launch date set in stone ages ago. That was their biggest mistake. It was clear on the PTS that things were not ready, and many of the bugs that were reported were not addressed. The constant crashing that you see now? It was there on the PTS. Many of the problems you see were reported on the PTS. There are a few new ones, but most are ones that were already found.

    The problem is that ZOS simply did not have the time to address all the issues. For example, it took them weeks to finally get a working 64-bit Windows client on the PTS--the 64 bit client was on the PTS only during the final week. With the amount of time it takes to track down and fix bugs and with the amount of problems being reported, they should've pushed TG back a few weeks so that they'd have the time to address everything that was uncovered on the PTS. Instead, they had already committed to March 7, so what we got was a half-baked product.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
    Personal best scores:
    Dungeon trifectas:
    Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― Raidificator
    PC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff Panels
    Other Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information
    Guides: Sunspire Mechanics ― Scalebreaker Dungeon Hard Modes ― Kyne's Aegis Mechanics ― Ascending Tide Dungeon Hard Modes ― Graven Deep Hard Mode
    Media: YouTube ― Twitch
  • Necrelios
    Necrelios
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've noticed this sort of thing becoming increasingly more common in MMO's. In ESO's case they have to get content out to PC's faster so we can test for console and they can't afford another year long dry spell with no new content. With four platforms their is also potential for four times as many bugs so that doesn't help either. Most of the bugs are little things that although time consuming and a pain, can be fixed with a small team. The only bugs that have my really concerned are the severe audio distortion and texture distortion on the 64 bit client. That's going to be much harder to isolate and fix.
    Terms & Conditions ["We revoke permission to fictional legal constructs or private/public persons for selling of any private data, censorship, surveillance, personage or conversion as a trespass of law. We prohibit the practice of "procedural law" or corporate statues in place of divine law."]
  • Jhunn
    Jhunn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    What's the point of testing on PTS when they've shown every time they don't change anything anyway? (Looking at you sh*tty FPS, crashes, etcetcetc).
    Gave up.
  • FENGRUSH
    FENGRUSH
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    ADarklore wrote: »
    The problem with your idea is that they'd need a LOT more people participating on the PTS than they have now. Sometimes bugs aren't discovered until an update is released to the masses where the game is run by thousands players using many combinations of equipment and more players running a larger variety of content.

    This isnt even remotely correct. There were a lot of people testing PTS - there are bugs that get reported in PTS and dont get fixed. Some of the bugs reported in Orsinium PTS were never fixed at all, they attempted fixing them multiple times 2months after live, failed to.. and said we will fix them during theives guild.

    The worst part is, a lot of bugs Im seeing on live were not on the PTS. They made changes to what is pushed to live than what was tested on PTS. This statement is incorrect on multiple points.

    Its not an us problem, its an internal ZOS problem.

    Their management finds this acceptable. They continue to do this over and over. This is business as usual at this point.
    http://www.twitch.tv/fengrush/
    Stam Sorc PVP

    Youtube
  • lonewolf26
    lonewolf26
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many of is have suggested longer testing periods as well as multiple character copies per sprint as helpful. If they make changes between last available test patch and live, they need to pass it to us to test. Ultimately, if there is anything game breakinf, it shouldn't ship. The fps, and crash issues experienced in TG are perfect examples of what should delay GA of the patch.

    For balance and performance testing it's important to make testing as accessible as possible. Of you've a toon live geared for end game content on the pts, you've got all you need, but the templates have consistently been lacking. Not all skill lines are maxed, no fully available CP for cap.

    They send you stuff they want you to test, but we need to be able to generate specifically setup gear in some cases. This doesn't work unless you've an in with a guild on the opposite megaserver who could craft for you, and even so is horribly inconvenient.

    We also have a part to play in testing. The more of us that participate and try different things the more we will find. When we find things it is important that ZoS triage it appropriately and if necessary hold the patch.
  • I_killed_Vivec
    I_killed_Vivec
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    code65536 wrote: »
    It's hard to test some things on the PTS because we don't have our own characters for half the testing period, and the template characters... suck.

    The bigger problem, though, is that they had this March 7 launch date set in stone ages ago. That was their biggest mistake. It was clear on the PTS that things were not ready, and many of the bugs that were reported were not addressed. The constant crashing that you see now? It was there on the PTS. Many of the problems you see were reported on the PTS. There are a few new ones, but most are ones that were already found.

    The problem is that ZOS simply did not have the time to address all the issues. For example, it took them weeks to finally get a working 64-bit Windows client on the PTS--the 64 bit client was on the PTS only during the final week. With the amount of time it takes to track down and fix bugs and with the amount of problems being reported, they should've pushed TG back a few weeks so that they'd have the time to address everything that was uncovered on the PTS. Instead, they had already committed to March 7, so what we got was a half-baked product.

    More than this...

    If they want the next DLC out in say three months, then they really should have it on the PTS now so that it can go through proper cycles of test/rework/retest.

    Of course they can't because the current code isn't stable, let alone ready to integrate any future developments.

    And if they really want our help in testing on the PTS (rather than playing the game that we subscribe to) then maybe they should give us some incentives. Not cash, or crowns, or even in-game gold, but maybe that piece of hard to obtain gear that you would have spent time grinding for if you hadn't been on the PTS...
  • Masuimi
    Masuimi
    ✭✭✭
    FENGRUSH wrote: »

    Its not an us problem, its an internal ZOS problem.

    Their management finds this acceptable. They continue to do this over and over. This is business as usual at this point.

    So how do we get ZOS to take this more seriously then? What are our options?
    Edited by Masuimi on March 9, 2016 7:18PM
  • Jhunn
    Jhunn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    Masuimi wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »

    Its not an us problem, its an internal ZOS problem.

    Their management finds this acceptable. They continue to do this over and over. This is business as usual at this point.

    So how do we get ZOS to take this more seriously then? What are our options?
    Disguise ourselves as roleplayers and fickle with Zenimax numbers, telling them there's really a 100 times more of us than in reality.

    We're just not important enough.
    Edited by Jhunn on March 9, 2016 7:19PM
    Gave up.
  • Calippe_Hac
    Calippe_Hac
    ✭✭
    Just listen. Answers all EOS management problems. :)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EKiqthx0GKw


    Where has it all gone wrong.......... :'(
  • GrimMauKin
    GrimMauKin
    ✭✭✭✭
    Considering how widely discussed the changes to Cloak (and it's new DOT suppressing functions) were on the forums you'd have thought that they'd be doubly sure that they got that right, but as per usual it's broken; ZOS seem to have a tradition of screwing up Cloak/Stealth with each patch.

    What's perhaps even more depressing is the ongoing list of bugs in the fundamental control system of the game (keys and skills simply not working reliably) that have been there since day one that ZOS continually choose to ignore (right back at the beginning people were calling to a halt to content patches and asking for one major update to concentrate fully on bug fixes). I'm beginning to wonder whether bug reports are ever looked at.

    To be honest I think that so much new code and content has been piled on the old that ZOS simply don't know how much of it actually works. It's such a shame as other aspects of the game are brilliant.
    I am one of The Great Mediocracy, those whose role in life is to provide the baseline by which The Few deem themselves Great.
  • epoling
    epoling
    ✭✭✭✭
    LOL - I feel like I am reading forums from every MMO I have ever played over the past 15 - 20 years. Every patch in every game brings the same complaints. I would say it is the nature of the MMO beast rather than any specific company as it happens with Blizzard, Zenimax, "They Break" Games, Turbine and all the rest. My suggestion? Chill out and accept that no matter how much you complain it isn't going to change the nature of the beast.
  • Selstad
    Selstad
    ✭✭✭✭
    b92303008rwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Selstad wrote: »
    It's rather frequent to be honest, they patch something to break another thing. Blizzard tried to patch things up in the "old" game (pre-cataclysm) for years, until mid Wrath (the 2nd expansion) they just said they wouldn't address any of those issues any more because they would just scrap all that content and make new content. Which also turned out to be bugged.

    And while on the subject of continuing failure, Blizzard is the absolute king of bad game launches. They've always had some problems with their game bugging out when they're releasing a new expansion. The recent added expansion "Warlords of Draenor", was possibly the worst launch of any MMO expansion made by an experienced company, in history of gaming. Mostly because they should have foreseen what would happen. What they did was make the entire quest line in the entire expansion hinge on 1 thing; Garrison (player housing'ish, only worse). And this Garrison was instanced for each player, so every player had to create their own instanced area of their garrison in order to move on. The servers failed, catastrophically, and at a stage they just had to limit the number of players that could get online, because they tried to fix it for 2 days without success. And this from a company with 10 years experience in the field.

    So is it normal for a company to introduce that many bugs and nerfs on a consistent basis? Yup, pretty much working as intended :smile:

    But WoD did not have that many CTD or performance issues IIRC. At least people got to play the game while ESO currently are unplayable for many players.

    No, you couldn't play WoD, you got time out, latency up the wazoo, queues and bugs that made the game more or less impossible to play. Funny thing is though, they had the exact same issues when Vanilla launched, as well as TBC, Wrath, Cata and Mists.

    It always seems to rise up new issues when new patches are released, and I don't think it's possible to safe-guard from that. You smear something newly coded on top of something coded long ago. Some issues are bound to happen then.
  • Troneon
    Troneon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Masuimi wrote: »
    Seriously? Is this normal for a company to break so many mechanics, introduce so many bugs, and stealth nerf so many things on a CONSISTENT basis?

    I can't even remember a single patch that didn't have a slew of bugs (not talking 1 or 2 or 3 or 4, but many) coming with it.

    What can we as players do to prevent this from continuing to happen? Do we need to do more testing? Longer testing periods before patches? or what?

    There has to be some way to mitigate this, because instead of looking forward to patches, I'm always thinking "hmm i wonder what will be broken this time, and how long will we have to put up with it?"

    Not meant to be a rant thread, but more of a brainstorming thing.

    Z0$ will never change, all we can do is accept this crap or leave or just stop giving them money until they start changing, which will never happen because camel lovers...
    PC EU AD
    Master Crafter - Anything you need!!
    High Elf Magicka Templar Healer/DPS/Tank
    Trials / Dungeons / PVP / Everything
  • Masuimi
    Masuimi
    ✭✭✭
    There must be a way to get them to take it more seriously. It really seems like ZOS doesnt care if they release broken stuff or not because the players will buy it regardless
  • Steel_Brightblade
    Steel_Brightblade
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry but saying they need more people on pts and more time is absolute rubbish. The reason I say thus is if you look on the pts forum 90% of all bugs that get onto live were reported, detailed and even tested so it could be shown including videos and screen shots, yet these bugs still make it onto live. The problem is rushing it out and using the put attitude of "well the customers will deal with it and we'll get round to fixing it eventually". If its broken I'd rather they held back the release of the dlc until they had fixed and tested the fixes.
  • SemiD4rkness
    SemiD4rkness
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    patrickmaurab14_ESO wrote: »
    Yep. Never seen a patch released with out people bitching especially large releases

    Lool so we should just shut up and buy the new mount?
  • Ra'Shtar
    Ra'Shtar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    In my opinion DLCs need to be tested two months prior to release not one, with just one month and the time it takes to test everything fixing all the bug before release is nearly impossible.
    Some of my favorite screenshots
    My opinions and posts are mostly on a PvE setting.
  • themdogesbite
    themdogesbite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    Masuimi wrote: »
    There must be a way to get them to take it more seriously. It really seems like ZOS doesnt care if they release broken stuff or not because the players will buy it regardless

    Then dont buy it. Drop subscription, dont buy DLC and don't buy anything from the crownstore.
    :]
Sign In or Register to comment.