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Inconsistent argument regarding ultimate counter?

Wollust
Wollust
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So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
Edited by Wollust on March 3, 2016 8:41PM
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  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    I actually agree. This isn't like the Cloak Skill, its an ultimate. The defense against this should be making distance, dodge rolling, and/or turtling up.
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  • r.jan_emailb16_ESO
    r.jan_emailb16_ESO
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    I disagree, there is a fundamental difference between reflecting a meteor, which completetely negates
    * damage on the opponent(s),
    * hard cc,
    * possibly soft CC or ground DoT effect

    and on top of that turning it against you.

    Being pulled out of stealth when using Clouding Swarm only negates a part of the ultimate, which can be said about any other ultimate as well, they all have counters, some have more, some have less.

    Also you can still COUNTER meteors, even avoid the damage and all the effects all together. Just not turn it against the caster.

    (Yes I know, you can still reflect overload, but that *** is spammable.)
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  • TheM0rganism
    TheM0rganism
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    • You can interrupt or dodge-roll out of Soul Strike.
    • You can walk through a Dawnbreaker.
    • You can walk out of a Nova/Consuming Darkness/Standards.
    • You can reflect Overload (I think).
    • Break Free exists.
    • Negate bubbles exist.
    • A dodge mechanic exists.

    There's a LOT of ways to counter Ults. Why should meteor and Bats be exceptions? Everything should involve a sense of counter-play. It's what makes PvP fun.
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  • Jeezye
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    Being pulled out of stealth when using Clouding Swarm only negates a part of the ultimate, which can be said about any other ultimate as well, they all have counters, some have more, some have less.

    I have to disagree there, it doesn't negate "only a part", but the main part of the ultimate, making it useless to use! This is a huge problem, noone runs clouding bats for the dmg, which isn't alot and also only lasts for a short period, but for the invisibility andthe utility it offers. This utility must not be surpressed by any other mechanic since its an ultimate.

    Btw, this will actually go further ways, since vamps will be even less viable without that ult beeing the easiest pickups with the worst kit in the game and worst passives on top.
    Check forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245485/vamps-are-free-ap-with-new-dlc#latest
  • r.jan_emailb16_ESO
    r.jan_emailb16_ESO
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    Jeezye wrote: »
    Being pulled out of stealth when using Clouding Swarm only negates a part of the ultimate, which can be said about any other ultimate as well, they all have counters, some have more, some have less.

    I have to disagree there, it doesn't negate "only a part", but the main part of the ultimate, making it useless to use! This is a huge problem, noone runs clouding bats for the dmg, which isn't alot and also only lasts for a short period, but for the invisibility andthe utility it offers. This utility must not be surpressed by any other mechanic since its an ultimate.

    Btw, this will actually go further ways, since vamps will be even less viable without that ult beeing the easiest pickups with the worst kit in the game and worst passives on top.
    Check forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245485/vamps-are-free-ap-with-new-dlc#latest

    We could discuss this ad nauseum, but basically you have to live with it. Utility aspects of every ultimate can be negated:

    * Block Meteor
    * Walk out of DK banner, nova, veil, Atronach range - negate it alltogether
    * purge heal debuffs, or heal debuff players using healing ultimates
    * cc break stuff

    And so on. I don't see why there should be an exception. Vampires being kinda lame now is a different story.
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  • Derra
    Derra
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    The primary function of batswarm is it´s dmg. Invisibility is merely the morph choice.

    Using magelight against clouding swarm is like using shuffle to negate ice comets snare. Now overload still being reflectable on the other hand :tongue:

    Aaaand there goes the discussion...
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  • Birdovic
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    Thats exactly what was bothering me when Ive read about unreflectable Meteor, lol.

    Everything Is unavoidable, Even soulstrike cant be Broken with a dodgeroll anymore.

    Is clouding swarm not considered an ultimate anymore?

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  • Tower_Of_Shame
    Tower_Of_Shame
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    Imo if u stupid enough to use a meteor on a dk or someone who uses 1h&shield reflect ability, then yeah you should get the meteor back in your face or be clever enough to use a reflect yourself so you will send it back.

    Plus people in cyro already spamming meteors like no tomorrow, just wait when patch hits live your speaker will explode when you fight in the keep:

    booom boooom boooom boooom booomo boooom
    O3GqAYR9jFxLi.gif
  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    Meteor can be cloaked

    Overload can be reflected and straight up moss

    Soul harvest can miss

    You can walk out of nova, standard and negate.

    Line of sight soul strike.

    Roll out of leap.

    I know you can block meteor. But the others you can actually avoid any damage
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  • Master_Kas
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    Imo if u stupid enough to use a meteor on a dk or someone who uses 1h&shield reflect ability, then yeah you should get the meteor back in your face or be clever enough to use a reflect yourself so you will send it back.

    Plus people in cyro already spamming meteors like no tomorrow, just wait when patch hits live your speaker will explode when you fight in the keep:

    booom boooom boooom boooom booomo boooom
    O3GqAYR9jFxLi.gif

    Lol that gif xD

    @Wollust completly agree. To the People who say clouding doesn't have it's counters: heal, spam shields , turtle upp, streak/fear/blazing spear at your feet to cc the swarmer. It's duration is short. Heck even dks can talon him to keep him in one spot for a short while.

    I personaly Love to use dawnbreaker of smiting on ppl in swarm. Knockdown+major damage. Sometimes you can kill them midswarm and they pop out of invis laying dead on the ground :trollface:
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  • FriedEggSandwich
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    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    So using this argument can we make atronach immune to knockdown and cc?
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  • TheDarkShadow
    TheDarkShadow
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    "Ultimate, or at least the 200+ cost, shouldn't be counterred and become completely useless!"

    Somewhere in the distance... the sound of someone crying after wasted 200 ult on Negate only to see the enemy, or completely ignore the effect (pve bosses) or simple break free from it (pvp players).
    Edited by TheDarkShadow on March 5, 2016 3:56AM
  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    thers lots of ultimates to be adjusted, and coulding swarm is one of them that gets hurt alot next patch.
    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    So using this argument can we make atronach immune to knockdown and cc?

    yes, this should change as well. Anyways tho, the atro breaks free by itself right now so its not that big of a deal.
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
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    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Respec to devouring swarm?

    For the record, the dot from swarm, plus all your other cc and dps abilities is enough to win the battle 7/10. You shouldn't need to be invisible to kill the other guy. Swarm + proxy det + any other dps skill = win. Invis not needed.
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  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Meteor should be ground targeted if it's not reflect able. It's too powerful for block to be the only counter.

    All ultimates should have a skillful coutner, e.g. walking out of the area of effect, dodging, etc.
  • AyelineESO
    AyelineESO
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    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Respec to devouring swarm?

    For the record, the dot from swarm, plus all your other cc and dps abilities is enough to win the battle 7/10. You shouldn't need to be invisible to kill the other guy. Swarm + proxy det + any other dps skill = win. Invis not needed.


    I'm sure he's talking about situations like jumping into an enemy group/zerg with proxy + invisbats. You wont survive this situation with devouring and you'll loose damage with this morph as bosmer and khajiit.

    But tbh we have to wait how this is going to effect the batswarm ulti. I think this wont be that big of a problem since 95% of ESOs playerbase has lower reaction time than my grandpa and wont even realize there's a vamp in them :)

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  • Jeezye
    Jeezye
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    AyelineESO wrote: »
    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Respec to devouring swarm?

    For the record, the dot from swarm, plus all your other cc and dps abilities is enough to win the battle 7/10. You shouldn't need to be invisible to kill the other guy. Swarm + proxy det + any other dps skill = win. Invis not needed.


    I'm sure he's talking about situations like jumping into an enemy group/zerg with proxy + invisbats. You wont survive this situation with devouring and you'll loose damage with this morph as bosmer and khajiit.

    But tbh we have to wait how this is going to effect the batswarm ulti. I think this wont be that big of a problem since 95% of ESOs playerbase has lower reaction time than my grandpa and wont even realize there's a vamp in them :)

    While I agree with what you say, I guell invis bats will get hit alot. I know ppl tend to suck at realising whats going on, but theres always gonna be one guy with magelight and will screw you completly over. Me as a khajit stamsorc am crying :(
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    Wollust wrote: »
    So as we know, meteor is not going to be reflectable anymore. The reasoning behind it was that as an ultimate it simply shouldn't be countered and rendered useless (and potentially harmful) for the caster.
    I can kinda follow the argument and even though I think it's a bad idea, I can live with it. But then, if I look at another ultimate, Clouding Batswarm, the argument doesn't add up. Clouding Batswarms main ability is granting you the invisibility, thus triggering certain passives and allowing you to be invisible and offensive for the 6s duration. The damage is the secondary effect (imo). But the stealth aspect of this ultimate has multiple hard counters (and on top of that a bugged on with mark).
    So my question is, why is it okay to render one primary effect of an ultimate useless with some sort of hard counter, but then buff up another ultimate with the reason "It's an ultimate, there shouldn't be a counter"? It just doesn't make sense. Either Clouding Batswarm has to give a perfect and unbreakable invisibility or the concept of not being able to counter an ultimate at all has to be trashed.

    @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Respec to devouring swarm?

    For the record, the dot from swarm, plus all your other cc and dps abilities is enough to win the battle 7/10. You shouldn't need to be invisible to kill the other guy. Swarm + proxy det + any other dps skill = win. Invis not needed.

    There are two morph choices giving a strong defensive side to the ultimate. If I am able to beat *one* guy with the extra damage from swarm, I could've killed him a second later anyway. That's not the point, the ultimate is mainly utility, both morphs to stay alive withina group of enemies, and Clouding also to avoid charges or buff damage as NB/Khajiit/Bosmer.
    Being visible to all enemies defeats the very purpose of the ultimate for one morph (as in, not just the morph effect, it's not very strong as pure AoE damage either). Meteor wouldn't be slotted if a single enemy DK could reflect *any* Meteors you throw as long as he is around. But it is still being used because you can use it on targets who are not reflecting it.
    Clouding Swarm is simply inferior to most other ultimates without invisibility, including Devouring Swarm obviously.
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